Talk:Jörmungandr

This article has been or is the subject of broader naming disputes. Rather than starting a separate discussion here, please use the centralized page Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) to discuss the issues involved.

remomved

I removed this from the article:

"According to another folktale, whenever fishermen, sea explorers or Viking raiding parties encountered the Serpent, Thor would come along to fight the great snake. It is possible that this particular myth arose because of thunderstorms at sea (the Norsemen believed that thunderstorms were caused by Thor riding across the sky in his goat-pulled chariot), where the ocean's waves ripped at ships like they were a gigantic snake. Ancient Norsemen spent a considerable amount of their time at sea, so many of their myths and legends revolve around such matters."

This is news to me. Anyone got a source? - Haukurth 14:16, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

name

Per Wikipedia:Use English rules, this article should be moved to Midgard Serpent, which is the most common English term. DreamGuy 23:29, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I'm fine with that, though "Midgardsormr" seems to get more Google hits. It's perhaps also worth noting that Britannica's article is at "Jörmungand".Oppose Changing my vote, Stefán and Matthew have a point. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 23:53, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We should keep articles on deities at their names, also Britannica sets a nice example. Stefán Ingi 23:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It seems to me that 'Midgard Serpent' is a descriptive, rather than the creature's name. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 23:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Keep diacritics. ナイトスタリオン ✉ 08:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Support, use common English name, commonly used as a proper name, more often with a capital S than not. If it were merely descriptive, you'd see more of other synonyms for serpent than you do. The other alternative would be Jormungand, much more common than Jörmungandr. Gene Nygaard 16:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Duja 13:08, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Interestingly "Midgardsormr" gets twice as many English Google hits as "Jormungand". Not that I go by Google hits. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 16:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Stefán. Tupsharru 13:43, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am closing this vote as having no consensus and being part of the broader discussion on Latin-only/English page names versus diacritical/original-language page names on the page started on this: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). This is not meant to endorse any point of view in this matter or to curtail active discussion. Please feel free to copy or reformulate any point made at the central page. I apologize for any inconvenience this causes, but is preferable to proliferating the discussion over many pages. JRM · Talk 01:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion seems to be dormant, but I would like to point out that Midgardsormr, in English Midgard-serpent is the name most often used in the norse Edda for this creature. In my opinion, it is not just the appropriate name for this article in English, but it is also the most common name for it in old Norse. (Barend 12:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC))[reply]

In Norway, we call it Midgardsormen, in our history books that is its name, not a descriptive term, as far as I know. I have never heard the term Jörmungandr before, and believe it should be moved to either Miðgarðsormr or The Midgard Serpent. --Tannkremen 21:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm Canadian, don't know a single Norwegian, except now maybe the guy above me, and I spent several minutes trying to get here with Midgardsormen and forgetting how to spell Jormungandr, I would be for opening up the year old discussion on changing the name to The Midgard Serpent, Midgardsormen or Midgardsormr (although I know noone who uses that spelling in RL and that doesn't even look vaguely English compared to the first two). Highlandlord 13:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, what does Jormungandr mean? A quick wiki search here shows Jormun to mean something about trees and the world tree and a gandr to be a staff in Odinism. Anyone know more? Highlandlord 13:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It means great staff. The Norse word Miðgarðsormr is used in the Prose Edda but Jörmungandr is used in the older Poetic Edda. Haukur 18:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The namegame

The name is only mention in Voluspá 49 (Sæmundar 50, Codex Regius 48, Hauksbók 44), and the names that are used are:

Jormungand, jörmungandr, iormvngandr and iormungandr.

The words that are used in the name(s) are:

jor (earth), orm (worm, snake), ung (young), ungan (the kid's or kin), and (duck).

The translated text:

~ is twisting

with jotun-anger (iotun).

The snake is coiled

and the eagle screams.

If we assume there is a snake in the name (J-snake-ungand), the J may refere to jotun (Jotun-snake-). The rest of the name (ungand) may refere to 'children' or 'kin'. The compiled name is then 'Jotun's snake children'. The ending 'and' (duck) may refere to Andvari (Duckwas), the dwarf created by the giant's (Jotun's).

Another name that is used (not in connection)is Jormunrek (Iormunreki), where 'rek' and 'reki' means drift or drifter. This suggest that 'Jormun' is travel on the sea. If we tranlate 'jor' to 'earth' and 'mun' to 'may' or 'was', the name become 'Earth-was-travel'.

The same logic applied to the name then become 'Jormun-gand'. The word 'gand' (norr. gandr) is a magickal staff or wand used by the Lapps. This points to the name Gandalf (Gandálfr, gandalfr or gand alfr) who also is a dwarf.

The name is a mix of many words and it is difficult to get a clear view towards the meaning of it. The name 'Earth-under-duck' is also one translation from the name Andvarefossen where the dwarf Andvare is living.

The keywords to the puzzle is then:

Jotun, worm, kin, earth and duck

Odin

Most of the above is nonsensical, and is based on a misreading of the name. The second letter, represented here as 'ö' is meant to be an o-ogonek. 'orm' is not written with an o-ogonek. There is no dispute among experts that the name Jörmungandr consists of two parts: Jörmun and gandr. Forget all about snakes and ducks.

The meaning of Jörmun is somewhat unclear, but probably means something like huge. Gandr is also an ambiguous word. It is definitely not a magic staff. It can mean, among other things, staff, penis, spirit sent out by a magician. The common interpretation of the name Jörmungandr is the enormous staff. But this reading is also problematic, because Jörmungandr is supposed to be coiled around the earth, and how can a staff be coiled? The exact meaning is probably lost forever in the mist of time.--Barend 13:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]