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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Konli17 (talk | contribs) at 17:04, 26 June 2020 (→Friendly fire). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Synopsis is incorrect

At the very top of the article, it is stated Tillman completed multiple tours before being killed. Later you say he was killed DURING his second tour. One or the other is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kenfo 0 (talk • contribs) 23:14, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, ref 2 says "Tillman served in several tours of duty, including time in Iraq as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom as well as a stay in Afghanistan to serve in Operation Enduring Freedom." The article could perhaps be clearer either in wording or which references it uses to support the content in that respect. Something interesting for you to sort out if you wish...[1] --Mirokado (talk) 23:31, 9 December 2011 (UTC) [reply]
  1. ^ "Pat Tillman Biography". 2006 A&E Television Networks.

Where was he born?

There is an inconsistency in this article, the second paragraph says he was born in San Jose, CA but the sidebar says Fremont, CA. 208.54.5.165 (talk) 07:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah where was he born 65.128.229.224 (talk) 18:07, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Rank

OK so if was posthumously promoted to corporal from specialist, should the pictures of him alive be labelled "corporal" or "specialist"? The DOD reports cited in the article consistently refer to him as "specialist". --jpgordon::==( o ) 18:40, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Does this alleviate the concern over any confusion that might take place as to his rank and the photograph? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 18:58, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That edit is both simple and elegant; works for me. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 19:08, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Forced Fumbles and Tackles

The forced fumbles in the article and in the stats box do not match up and the article says 3 but the stats box says 1 and 1 is correct according to NFL.com. Also the hyperlink to NFL.com shows him having 184 careers tackles, not 238.JMOUNT28 (talk) 19:27, 18 September 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JMOUNT28 (talk • contribs) 16:05, 18 September 2018 (UTC) [1][reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.nfl.com/player/pattillman/2503360/careerstats. {{cite web}}: External link in |website= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help)

Friendly fire

@Konli: Four times now (1, 2, 3, 4) you have changed the description and link in the lead from the friendly fire article to the fratricide article. Your last edit summary stated "The DOD can call it [friendly fire], but that assertion isn't backed up by what we know of events." What do you mean by that comment? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 17:57, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The first sentence of friendly fire states: "Friendly fire is an euphemism for a failed or misguided attack by a military force on friendly or neutral troops while attempting to attack the enemy." There's a suspicion that Tillman was deliberately targeted, which means we can't be reasonably certain his death was truly a result of friendly fire. But whatever way things went down, there's no doubting it was fratricide. If there was a section in the friendly fire article that covered deliberate or suspected deliberate fratricide, I'd happily link to there, but there isn't. Konli17 (talk) 18:14, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I read through the article just now, and saw deeper in the body the speculation by Chris Matthews in 2007 that Tillman was actually murdered based on the autopsy saying he was shot by .556 rounds from 30 feet away, followed by speculation from some FOIA requests, and then a quote to a self-web-published opinion piece by Michael I. Niman, claiming that Tillman was about to go public with anti-Bush administration views then suddenly got dead on a patrol in Afghanistan, insinuating that he was killed to silence him. Not a lot of quality RS content to go on there (some of it happens to have COPYVIO problems as well as RS and DUE issues). Even if it were well sourced and substantial from the point of DUE, however, "fratricide" is still the wrong term. The right term in that instance would be alleged killing, murder, or assassination (the latter especially in the context of politics). When used in regard to the battlefield, "fratricide" is still an accidental killing just like friendly fire, not a deliberate killing (like the way "fragging" is used in colloquial military parlance). The Army defines fratricide as “the employment of friendly weapons and munitions with the intent to kill the enemy or destroy his equipment or facilities, which results in unforeseen and unintentional death or injury to friendly personnel” (1992). Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 20:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's not my intention to have the article assert that Tillman was deliberately killed by a colleague; rather, I'd prefer not to use language that definitively rules that out. Whatever about the US Army definition, linking to friendly fire with its current content gives the strong impression that the killing was accidental, which is in doubt. Konli17 (talk) 00:28, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
After reading the sourcing again this morning, I don't think there's any reasonable doubt in this scenario. Sure, there are some people who believe that Tillman was deliberately killed by his fellow soldiers in a viewpoint best described as fringe speculation, but not enough substance to justify putting "friendly fire" in doubt for the reader. There was a short but interesting piece from NPR a number of years back that you might want to read, from one of Tillman's platoon members, talking about what happened the night of the killing; you can read it here. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 12:42, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree there isn't enough substance. That website's not accessible for me, is the interview available anywhere else? Konli17 (talk) 16:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure why that NPR piece won't load for you, it shouldn't be behind a paywall. Unfortunately I'm not aware of it being available at other locations. With regard to disagreement over whether or not there is sufficient RS substance to call into doubt Wikipedia stating it was friendly fire, you could start an RfC. It would attract the attention of other editors, with the possibility that consensus could develop in support of your contention that maybe it wasn't friendly fire. Are you familiar with the RfC process? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 16:23, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I want to emphasise, it's not my contention that Tillman was deliberately killed. But I do contend that there's sufficient doubt about events to preclude us giving the impression that it was definitely an accident. Konli17 (talk) 17:03, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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