Talk:Mao Zedong

Visionary poet?

How about mass murderer?? This Wikipedia page makes it sound like he is one of the greatest people in history with a few minor blemishes on his record. I mean, this article admits he persecuted (killed) 550,000 people in one period of history and then hundreds of thousands to tens of millions in other parts of his rule. Most accounts I’ve read by historians say he killed 30-50 million Chinese to include dead babies left on pitch forks and spears. How can you such flattering commentary in respect to this guy?? 2601:6C3:8200:5160:28A6:EC5D:502C:3B0C (talk) 02:54, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Because this is not a ultra-right cartoon propaganda site.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:06, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

He has a point though. There are some people that see terrorists as heroes. It doesn't mean it should be mentioned on their Wikipedia pages. John Smith's (talk) 17:03, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

This article does not say Mao was a "hero". It attempts to document his life in a neutral way and cover all aspects. See comments below.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:46, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Being a visionary does not mean said envisioned constructs are all-benign. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 23:58, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Li's book goes into much detail about Mao's preference for underage girls as sexual partners. Why no mention of that in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.244.137.86 (talk) 02:40, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

You are welcome to be wp:bold and insert a referenced mention of it in the articleBrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}})} 02:43, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Lead trimmed

I've cut out the "tinker, tailor, soldier, spy" bit in the lead. He was primarily known as a politician. You can buy books anywhere on Mao the politician, but you're hard pressed to buy books of his poetry. That he wrote poetry is not really relevant to this page or his life, because anyone can do those things.

I've also suggested tweaking it to say he was a highly influential person, because "one of the most" doesn't explain where he fits in with everyone else. E.g. Kennedy, Deng, Gorbachev, Thatcher, Reagen, Roosevelt, the list just goes on and becomes somewhat meaningless. I know one book referred to him that way, but it's a bit much. But if someone wants to change that particular bit back I don't mind. John Smith's (talk) 17:09, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Anyone could write poetry (I guess), but Mao was a published poet and known as a poet. We have a page on the Poetry of Mao Zedong. There is a book of his poetry in print. There is no reason not to mention this in the lead. It is not lengthy and does not require "trimming". Simply because he is known as a politician, does not mean we shouldn't cover other aspects of his life. This is not an article about what "everyone knows" about Mao.

With regard to the second point, the Time source says, "Mao Zedong is one of the most influential figures in history and was named by TIME as one of the 100 most important people of the 20th century". This is somewhat contradictory. The Oxford source says, "By all reasonable standards of historical judgment, Mao Zedong must be counted among the half-dozen most important political actors in modern world history". The Oxford source doesn't define "modern world history". The text in this article (which is repeated under "Legacy") has a link to modern history, which defines "modern history" as beginning in 1500. I think this judgment is questionable, but we do have two sources. I will change "modern world history" to twentieth century, because I think that is closer to what the sources mean.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:06, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

In addition to the above, I don't think it is clear who Mao influenced. Apart from the short-lived Khmer Rouge, there was no regime which had allegiance to Mao's China. This is in contrast to the Soviet Bloc, which included many countries, and had the allegiance of many more Communists worldwide than Mao did. Was Brezhnev a more influential figure than Mao? It is true that Maoism was in vogue c. 1970, and that some insurgents (notably in Nepal and India) still have allegiance to Mao, but does this make him one of the most influential figures in recent world history? In his own country, many of his policies have been abandoned and even condemned. In any case, many of his ideas came from Stalin. People like Sun Yat-sen also have a claim to have made today's China. What actually makes him influential? Who actually did he influence?--Jack Upland (talk) 09:44, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

How about saying separately that he was decribed by Time as that? Also who regards him as a visionary and in what regard - Maoists? His economic policies were undeniably disasterous for China, not really the sort of vision most people want. John Smith's (talk) 08:32, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

I have removed "visionary" because I think "political intellect, theorist, military strategist, and poet" covers that. I have removed "influential" because I think "important" covers that, and I don't think the article justifies a claim for him being influential in recent world history. The fact that Time says it in a confused way is no reason for us to repeat this claim.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:09, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Nixon

I've removed this from the lead:

in particular, in 1972, Mao welcomed U.S. President Richard Nixon in Beijing, signalling the start of a policy of opening China to the world.

This is not reflected in the body of the article. Firstly, why say "in particular"? Secondly, in fact, it was Nixon who reversed the US policy of excluding China. Mao's government was not recognised as the government of China for decades. And Australian leader Gough Whitlam had visited China prior to the Nixon visit. Mao's China had links to the world from 1949 onwards. Thirdly, linking to the Open Door Policy is appalling as the Open Door Policy was an imperialist policy which Mao did not support. The Open Door Policy article does not (understandably) mention Nixon at all. Nor did Mao welcoming Nixon foreshadow Deng's market reforms. This sentence gets almost everything wrong.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:55, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Mao's alleged concern for the majority

During the early 1960s, Mao became concerned with the nature of post-1959 China. He saw that the revolution and Great Leap Forward had replaced the old ruling elite with a new one. He was concerned that those in power were becoming estranged from the people they were to serve. Mao believed that a revolution of culture would unseat and unsettle the "ruling class" and keep China in a state of "perpetual revolution" that, theoretically, would serve the interests of the majority, rather than a tiny and privileged elite.

Jesus, are we really doing this? Source is Mao: A Reinterpretation, which Wikipedia describes as "a work of historical revisionism that sought to highlight what Feigon saw as the positive aspects of Mao Zedong's political leadership." Academic reviews of this book are pretty negative overall, with comments like "contrarian and unpersuasive" and "a simplistic vision of Mao that cannot convince." Bruce Cumings did like it. Obviously there is other reliable-source scholarship interpreting Mao as a cynical Machiavellian, his objections to elite ruling classes as obviously ludicrous given his own position, the GPCR as his weapon against Party rivals, etc. We should separate interpretation from fact and certainly never take a fringe revisionist work as authoritative. 74.15.32.60 (talk) 00:53, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with the text or the source used. Obviously, you are free to edit the article using other sources.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:37, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Something from a source like that that has been criticized by other experts should have WP:In-text attribution, as a minimum. Crossroads ^-talk- 02:37, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Has this piece of information been criticised?--Jack Upland (talk) 02:48, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Ordered mass killings of landlords

See Talk:Mao Zedong/Archive 9#I propose adding "mass murderer" to the intro.

To be clear about my position:

• I have very rudimentary exposure to this topic, and I could easily be wrong about any of the facts, so correct me if necessary.
• I oppose putting "mass murderer" anywhere in the article.
• I support a concise and clear (if abbreviated) reference in the intro to Mao's setting quotas for killings of landlords if that's a non-controversial historical fact.
• I suggest something like the following wording: "In the following years he solidified his control through ordering mass landlord executions, suppression of "counter-revolutionaries", "Three-anti and Five-anti Campaigns" and through a psychological victory in the Korean War, which altogether resulted in the deaths of several-million Chinese."
• I think the "altogether resulted in the deaths of several-million Chinese" clause is weak in failing to attribute proactivity to Mao (sounds like it all may have been a big blunder like The Great Leap Forward), but it's better than nothing..

-Tom Haws (talk) 17:02, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

As far as I can see, there is no source cited which says Mao set quotas for the killing of landlords.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:11, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

That doesn't matter: 1. I am just referring to what the article says: "Mao played a personal role in organizing the mass repressions and established a system of execution quotas". 2. This specific is not core to my position; it's a distraction since I clearly gave this an example and said "if ... fact". 3. My suggested wording ("ordering mass landlord executions") does not mention quotas. Tom Haws (talk) 18:17, 24 January 2021 (UTC)