Talk:Islamic views on slavery

Recent edits

This recent edit is problematic for a number of reasons. It describes Muhammad as a slave-owner, even though he freed all his slaves. Therefore that's a misrepresentation. The same source that claims that Muhammad did not intend to abolish slavery also notes that Muslims believe he wanted the gradual abolition of slavery. In any case it is the opinion of one person and can't be presented as fact. There is also some unexplained removal of facts like this:

However, this was an exception rather than the norm, as the vast majority of labor in the medieval Islamic world consisted of free, paid labour

They created some great empires in history including the Ghaznavid Empire, Khwarazmian Empire, Delhi Sultanate, Mamluk Sultanate of Iraq and Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt and Levant.

Why was this removed?VR _talk 15:02, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

It turns out these edits were done by Naranirma who is a sockpuppet of Balolay above. I've reverted the edits.VR _talk 19:15, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 July 2020

It is widely known that before Islam people were enslaved through kidnapping and abduction, wars, and debts. Islam rejected all of these means with the exclusion of the enslavement of war prisoners and slave trade.

However, the page tend to oversee that dimension, extent, and gravity of slave trade that flourished during the golden Islamic time. Slave trade was the cornerstone in building the Islamic Empire. I am trying to edit to shed the light on those practices. DrNureFarid (talk) 00:22, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jack Frost (talk) 07:52, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Under subsection Traditional Islamic jurisprudence/Principles add new paragraph; It is important to highlight that beside the highlighted forms of lawful enslavement, trading in slaves is an accepted Islamic principal that Muhammad practiced . Egon Flaig described Islamic slave trade as 'the largest and longest-lasting slave-system in world history.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrNureFarid (talk • contribs) 18:26, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

That seems like you're interpreting a WP:PRIMARY which is WP:OR. And Flaig's views have been criticized by other academics.VR _talk 21:03, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Concerns well noted.

I reviewed the criticism to Egon Flaig and it didn't touch on his work on the Islamic slave trade, but the errors in his approach are sufficient to ignore his conclusion, hence I removed my reference to his work. However, slave trade by Muslims was indeed supported by the religious text and views that enabled it. The grand Imam of alAzhar lobbied against the abolition laws in Egypt in 1895. Even modern Islamic scholar do not question trading in slaves, they question how the enslavement took place, an important difference that should ne clarified.

Indeed, slave trade was a much bigger problem compared to slave enslavement. Indeed, slavery as institution remained for more than 1,300 years for strong reasons.

Please consider the following reviewed edits:

Under subsection Traditional Islamic jurisprudence/Principles add new paragraph;

It is important to highlight that beside the indicated forms of lawful enslavement, trading in slaves is an accepted Islamic principal that Muhammad practiced . This is supported by known Islamic jurisprudence (Madhhab). The Maliki jurisprudence defined the rules governing trading in slaves as in Altahawy . Ibn Qudamah (1147-1223 ad), an important figure in the Hanbali jurisprudence, described in his book, al-Moghny, the issues relevant to disputing slave ownership between slave owners, and Islamic ways to handle slave trade during hardship like a bankruptcy of slave owner(s). Patrick Manning noted that Islam's recognition and codification of slavery seems to have done more to protect and expand slavery than the reverse it.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by DrNureFarid (talk • contribs) 20:38, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

All of those are again primary sources, except the last one. Can you give the page number from Manning's book?VR _talk 22:22, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

References

You response seem to be quite arbiterary; you've indicated;

"All of those are again primary sources, except the last one. Can you give the page number from Manning's book?"

Answer:

Manning, pg 28

For the used references:

Reference # 4: Brief on Scholars' Differences, not a primary. This is one of the Maliki sources. It is a reputable Fiqh source which present the Islamic 'understanding' of the holy texts such as the once presented in reference 1 and 3. There is no foundation to claim that Fiqh is a WP:PRIMARY or WP:OR.

Reference # 5: Almoghny, Ibn-Qudameh is one of the top sources for Hanbali Fiqh. Again, Fiqh represent top Islamic scholars understanding of the holy text. Hence, it is not a primary. There is no foundation to claim that Fiqh is a WP:PRIMARY or WP:OR.

Reference #5: Manning, I presented his opinion on the matter. This is a modern view on the known Islamic Fiqh. There is no foundation to claim that Mannin modern review is a WP:PRIMARY or WP:OR.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by DrNureFarid (talk • contribs) 19:15, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: It's been a month or so since any more comments have been made in this discussion, so I'm setting it to answered, as there doesn't appear to be any consensus to make this change. Seagull123 Φ 15:39, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2020

1) The claim recently added that "While in other systems of slavery, such as for example that of Ancient Rome, a slave could always buy their freedom by financial means, Islamic law allows slaves to get their freedom only under certain circumstances." seems to be unsourced and not found in the source given. [1]. It should be removed.

2) The sentence recently added in the "Slavery in the Quran section" stating "However, it has been pointed out that a poignant paradox...colonial powers, although some Muslim thinkers argued strongly for abolition." is not related to the discussion of the Quran at all. It should be shifted or perhaps removed, considering a discussion about this is already included in other subsections. Subsections exist for a reason. 39.37.163.88 (talk) 08:20, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@Grufo: added

While in other systems of slavery, such as for example that of Ancient Rome, a slave could always buy their freedom by financial means, Islamic law allows slaves to get their freedom only under certain circumstances.

Yet the source says

Islamic law allows slaves to get their freedom under certain circumstances.

Can Grufo explain this discrepancy? If not, this will be yet another example of Grufo inserting WP:OR into articles.VR _talk 09:11, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

There is an ongoing discussion on my talk page about alleged copyright infringement for quoting the BBC page – what a paradox, I will have to defend my edit there and show that I didn't copy too much, while here I will have to defend my edit by showing that I copied enough… Anyway, until that is settled there is no reason to discuss about an edit that is no longer present in the page. --Grufo (talk) 13:52, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

It's not really a paradox. Copyright or not the BBC article does not support the comparative claims made in any way, either directly via quotation or indirectly via proper attribution and in ones own words. In any case the matter is indeed settled for now. 39.37.135.0 (talk) 17:59, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I integrated the material into the article.VR _talk 01:36, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

 Note: Setting this to answered as it appears as though this edit request has now been completed. Seagull123 Φ 15:42, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Eperoton please stop reversing edits on spurious grounds

This is the second page where Eperoton has been reversing my edits while falsely claiming that they are unsourced or, in this case, unexplained. I explained my removal of the statement about Wahhabis rejecting abolition until the 1980s when I first made it, I have explained it again when I re-made the edit just now. Yes, there is a citation for the claim, but the citation is wrong. The article by Brunschvig makes a brief and unsubstantiated claim that the "Wahhabis of Arabia... up to the present day (i.e. 1986) have vigorously maintained their downright antagonism towards abolition." Brunschvig provides no evidence for this claim, and it contradicts the fact that Saudi Arabia abolished slavery in 1962. Saudi Arabia's entire political system is based on Wahhabism (to be precise, an alliance between the Sa'ud royal family and the Wahhabi ulema, in which the latter support the Sa'ud's legitimacy in return for exclusive control of the religious and legal institutions of the country), and the legal system follows the Wahhabi interpretation of Islamic law. The Wahhabi authorities approved the abolition of slavery in 1962. The only other country where Wahhabism is the form of Islam recognized by the government is Qatar, and slavery was abolished there in 1952. So, while there are individual Wahhabi scholars who have argued against abolition, it is simply false to claim that the Wahhabis as a group rejected it. The dominant elements of the Wahhabi ulema, and the only ulema whose opinions have been followed in an actual legal system, approved abolition since 1962. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jb212 (talk • contribs) 17:35, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Revised paragraph on abolition in introductory section

I have revised the paragraph on abolition in the page's first section because it was deeply misleading. It claimed that the bulk of abolition in the Muslim world happened after World War 1, and gave the impression that much of it happened in the 1960s and 70s. But this is simply untrue, and the countries the passage cited (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman and Mauritania) were marginal and unrepresentative. The largest Muslim countries, which were also the dominant ones politically and culturally, mostly abolished slavery before WW1, with a few following suit in the 1920s. I have revised the passage accordingly, adding references to the key secondary works on abolition in the Muslim world. (NB: Saudi Arabia may seem like an important Muslim country today, but that's a recent development produced by its oil wealth, before the late 20th century it was not significant either in population size or in political and cultural influence).

I have also re-worded the final sentence, which gave the impression that slavery is still officially condoned in the African countries listed. This is misleading - slavery is illegal in all of those countries, and the people who persist in keeping slaves and unambiguously breaking the law. The logic of the former wording is never applied to western countries: there are documented examples of slavery in contemporary Britain, but nobody claims that this somehow shows that Britain hasn't really abolished slavery. It is illegal activity.

Lastly, I have corrected the first sentence of the paragraph, which was incorrect and did not reflect the cited source. North Africa was not a *source* of slaves for the Muslim slave trade, it was a destination. In addition, "west Asia" is misleading, because the areas from which slaves were taken extended well into what is normally considered eastern Europe (Ukraine, Russia, etc).