Talk:Avril Lavigne

Semi-protected edit request on 14 February 2020

Remove the line at the end of the 2nd paragraph "Since her professional debut, Lavigne has sold more than 40 million albums and over 50 million singles worldwide, making her the third-best-selling Canadian female artist of all time, behind Celine Dion and Shania Twain." The source that this cites is incorrect. While I don't know the comprehensive list of female Canadian artists to know exactly what her rank would be, it is definitely not third. Alanis Morissette has sold around 60 million albums, and Sarah McLachlan has also sold 40 million. So at the very least she is tied in 4th place with McLachlan, not accounting for any other female Canadian artists. 202.172.110.117 (talk) 03:51, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. Please provide reliable sources that support this change (and be specific with what change to make). –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 04:00, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

About the sources used to back this claim: narcity.com looks like some kind of blog and probably no editorial oversight. avrillavigne.com must be disqualified from supporting this claim per WP:ABOUTSELF. The IP is right, we need better sources before we can continue to retain this claim in the article. Elizium23 (talk) 04:16, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Tattoos

It is plainly evident, by looking at the infobox image, that Lavigne has multiplied her tattoos, at least those on her arms, as of 2019-20. The section claims that most of them are paired with friends, but I am not sure that is true, ten years on. We'll need new documentation of her new ink here. I've tagged the section accordingly. Elizium23 (talk) 02:36, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Nationality in the lede

I'm putting this section here because I noticed that Lavigne's lede has been changed and edited to describe her as being "Canadian" and other times, "Canadian-French/French-Canadian". I think it would be best to leave her lede at only saying "Canadian". According to her article: Her father is French and she got her French passport in 2011. But beyond that, she was born and raised in Canada and rose to prominence in Canada/America.

Her info box already mentions her citizenship and her Personal life has a whole section talking about this info. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 19:59, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Clear Looking Glass, so what? Her dual citizenship is clear, and deserves mention. Elizium23 (talk) 08:40, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@Elizium23: - If you didn't read my post, her info box and her Personal life section Avril_Lavigne#French_citizenship already mention she has French citizenship. Apart from getting French citizenship in 2011, her being French is irrelevant to her notability and shouldn't be listed in her lede, WP:BIOLEAD. She was born and raised in Canada and gained notoriety in Canada/America. As an example: Kristen Dunst's father is German and she has German citizenship, but her lede doesn't describe as being "German-American" because aside from getting German citizenship in 2011, she was born/raised, resides and works mostly in America/American productions. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 03:25, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@Clear Looking Glass: I agree with @Elizium23:. What about Camila Cabello or Heidi Klum? Cabello describes as Cuban-American even though she wasn't raised in Cuba and wasn't born in America. Klum describes as German-American even though she wasn't born and raised in America. Even Yolanda Hadid describes as Dutch-American even though she's just be an American citizen recently. Why can't Avril describe as Canadian-French like the others? I think it doesn't matter about where she was born or works most of the time, it's about what passports she's holding. (Bistymings (talk) 14:45, 30 November 2020 (UTC))

@Bistymings: - Aside from having American citizenship, Heidi Klum has been working in America since the 1990s and is arguably most well known for being a Victoria's Secret Angel, from 1997 to 2010. As well as appearing in the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue. Both American companies. Camila's article says she was born and raised in Cuba and has Cuban citizenship. She later moved to the United States, got American citizenship in 2008 and attended high school in America. She now lives in America and as far as her career goes, is most active/prominent in USA, which is why her lede says she's "Cuban-American". Yolanda was born and raised in the Netherlands, as well as getting her start as a model there, but she is now living and working in America (along with getting US citizenship) and is best known for being a member of The Real Housewives franchise. Avril on the other hand doesn't have any notable connection to France beyond her passport, and her article already explains her citizenship. Actress Isabela Moner is an American who also has dual Peruvian citizenship because of her mother, but her lede just says her American because that doesn't bear any relevancy to her prominence, as explained on her talk page. Which explains the WP:BIOLEAD. I'm leaving her lede at just saying Canadian. Maybe a moderator could come in here and for further discussion. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 02:23, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Clear Looking Glass, your inexperience at Wikipedia is showing. There is no such thing as a "moderator" here. We are supposed to work these issues out ourselves. Policy and guidelines indicate that we can certainly accord Lavigne the proposed wording in the lede. Your arguments are not in accordance with the manual of style. Elizium23 (talk) 03:33, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

RFC: lede sentence

How should the lede sentence refer to Lavigne?

1. Canadian
2. Canadian-French (or French-Canadian)
3. other? Elizium23 (talk) 07:02, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

• Canadian. Following MOS:BIOLEAD, Lavigne was born and raised in Canada and is most notable/identified as being a Canadian singer. Her getting French citizenship in 2011 is covered in her article. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 08:55, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

• Canadian per MOS:ETHNICITY.--Moxy 🍁 16:09, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
• Canadian per Clear Looking Glass.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:56, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
• Canadian per MOS:ETHNICITY.Spudlace (talk) 05:03, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
• Canadian Her notability is as "Canadian singer", per Clear Looking Glass. Bluesatellite (talk) 06:19, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
• Canadian as her notability is as a Canadian singer. Andromadist (talk) 14:52, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

RFC Discussion

• Is the Canadian-French/French-Canadian lead intended to indicate that she is both a citizen of France and a citizen of Canada, or is it intended to point out that she is French Canadian? Option 2 may be confusing, as someone might expect this to mean that Avril is "French Canadian" (a specific subgroup of Canadian) when from what I read, it is intended to refer to her current citizenship status with France. Andromadist (talk) 22:39, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

  This topic is about her lede sentence and Wiki guidelines states that the lede is suppose to establish a person's career/location and nationality/etc, with ethnicity being left out unless that fact is important to a subject's notability. I'm not the user who started the RfC, but pertaining to the lede, the option of choosing "French-Canadian/Canadian-French" is suppose to refer to her having dual citizenship to Canada and France. On a tangent, there are other similar terms (for example, see Dutch Canadian, German Canadian, Swedish Canadian, etc) which can be used to refer to Canadian citizens of whatever heritage or someone who has dual citizenship to Canada and another country. But I've already mentioned the guidelines about the lede and ethnicity. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 04:21, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

  Andromadist, Lavigne happens to be French Canadian, but MOS:OPENPARABIO specifies that context is about location or nationality. It would be a happy accident that her citizenship and ethnicity match, but we would not want to link it thus, for that reason.

  We could also explain further, e.g. Avril Ramona Lavigne (/ˌævrɪl ləˈviːn/ AV-ril lə-VEEN, French: [avʁil laviɲ]; born September 27, 1984)[1] is a singer, songwriter and actress with dual Canadian and French citizenship. Elizium23 (talk) 04:58, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, based on that I'm leaning more towards the second half of MOS:CONTEXTBIO which instructs us thus: "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable... if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable" and thus have voted Canadian. Respectfully, Andromadist (talk) 15:06, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2020

Machine Gun Kelly link page needs changed to Machine Gun Kelly (Musician) 5.65.132.24 (talk) 03:07, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

 Done Elizium23 (talk) 03:09, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Verb tense

Per MOS:TENSE and MOS:BLPTENSE, in general, verb tense should be in the present. In this case, for songs, albums and videos, they are works that exist in the present, so past tense should be avoided. Elizium23 (talk) 14:02, 1 January 2021 (UTC)