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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ragnarok Addict (talk | contribs) at 21:51, 18 January 2007 (→Flamengo is the 1987 Champion.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Overcoming partiality

It's probable that we will be facing a stalemate here, as it is likely that FIFa won't correct shortly its World club championship page since it probably judge this issue petty and not worth any disclaimer. On the other hand we will continue facing some irrational argumentation that this FIFA page is indirectly a wouldbe recognition, and these ones are not likely to be convinced.

I see actually a bigger issue: the very title of this article. If we really mean Série A because this is the current name of the Brazilian premiership, we have a problem: it just applies to last editions of the tournament as we shouldn't even consider tournamentents say prior to the "pontos corridos" era.

If we loosen the definition to include the premierships of all "campeonatos brasileiros". we have to define "campeonato brasileiro". We all know that it has had many namings and that it can even include cups not organized by CBF but backee by it. One thing should be sure: "campeonato brasileiro" cannot be directly br translated in English into "Brazilian championship". Because the latter is much broader as it conveys international opinion which is often rough and would indeed leave room to include taça de prata, robertão and even cup união, as attested by the naive fifa site page.

So my point is that there can be only one definition to the "Campeonato Brasilieiro" label: the one listed by CBF in its official page.

If anyone disagrees, I would then propose as a backup solution that we: a) either change the name of the article from "Camp. Bras. Série A" to "Brazilian championship". In this case I would add the taça de prata from Santos (as "recognized" by FIFA) and of course Robertão (as obviously an in-between) and also in this case the Copa União as a Brazilian championship (from a separate league). This would match the international, uneducated understanding about Brazil viewed, say, from Switzerland. So indeed Santos and Palmeiras would be the biggest winners in Breazilian championships. The "advantage" would be that this would match FIFA world club page statistics,as some seem to support with no clear faith. But it would seriously challenge the credibility of this article. b) and/or we maintain "Série A" and skip all the tournaments prior to 2003, when Série A began (the name Série A taken from the Italian league obviously implying an European-oriented type of tournament, which is exactly what the "pontos corridos" system means).

I don't appreciate any of these two last solutions but that's what's needed to be consistent. So again my point is: let's stick to the oficial CBF list without exceptions (with at maximum some short footnotes linking to other pages where the polemics can strive). 200.199.23.121 12:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Is this a vote? I vote for sticking to the CBF definition of Campeonato Brasileiro. Concerning the name, I think that Serie A tournaments can be in the same article with the previous editions of the tournament. In my opinion, the fact that it has changed names or changed "formulae" is irrelevant here, since it has always (since 1971) been organised (or backed, as in the case of João Havelange) by the CBF as the premier division of Brazilian football. In comparison, the wikipages for UEFA Champions League and the Premiership include previous editions in which the formula and/or the name were different. Please let's not consider adding Taça de Prata or Robertão, or else we might lose the focus here and I don't know where it could lead us - perhaps to arguing about who was the Brazilian champion in 1902. Of course the Copa União issue is much more controversial, but I don´t see why turning thisen page upside down would help solve it. Lomibz 13:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, somehow yes. It is actually a vote about which of the three ways of making this page with consistency and trying to overcome partiality. People must be aware that claiming their "Brazilian championship" title implies also recognizing other claims and views and mean indeed turning this page upside down. Consistency here is of essence. I'm waiting a bit for some more feedback from others before I rectify. 200.199.23.121 15:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I support keeping the article with its current name (Campeonato Brasileiro Série A), and listing only champions from 1971 onwards. Carioca 19:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Great. I understand that putting the issue in perspective and showing the consequences in consistency has helped overcome the partiality, hopefully. I'l propose to remove the NPOV message while maintaing thus only the official CBF list from 71 onwards, as per their site. I'll thus ask anybody trying to revert this in the future to get here to discuss (with sound new arguments) before any change, otherwise it could be considered as vandalism, as we shouldn't be starting this all over again. 200.199.23.121 17:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Flamengo titles

FIFA reconheced 5 Brazilian Championship of Flamengo. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.196.29.56 (talk • contribs) . [1]

You are correct. Carioca 01:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please guys, do not start his over again, leave it to the portuguese version for this ridiculous discussion with brazilian-style rethorics. FIFA does NOT recognize Flamengo's title and is NOT entitled to recognize it anyway. Don't leverage on a side page hidden inside fifa's site about world club championships written probably by a Swiss guy that barely knows which is the capital of Brazil, as 99,9% of Europeans. This has never been an official list while we all know the official list from CBF. Don't you feel silly about saying "CBF recognizes and FIFA doesn't"?? This FIFA page link is NOT a reliable and official source, if at least it was from their very World league page (which actually links of course to cbf's site). Please correct this.200.199.23.121 17:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I would add on top that the article footnote explaining Flamengo's "case" is very badly written and completely unobjective, or simply plain wrong: you cannot say that fifa recognizes sport AND flamengo because it does not mention sport ! And there is no "recognition". And, no, there is no one single "official" publications that recognizes flamengo. Placar and Mr Kfouri aare not official. Far from everybody recognizes flamengo as the winner but then as flamenguistas (as evidently you are) often say "flamengo is brazil", then of course we end up in a tautology. You are eating your own tail. And anyway this is not an argument. I prefer you could correct ourselves this before we end up making corrections and reversions or maybe we would need to appeal to moderators. Be reasonable and just consider how ridiculous is to mention that CBF and conmebol disagree with fifa when there is not one proof of that except your imagination on a typo in fifa site or that cnd and club dos 13 has any power on deciding who is brazilian champion, etc... 200.199.23.121 19:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed some POV sentences and tried to make the article reflect how controversial the matter still is. I had previously removed the alleged FIFA recognition of Flamengo's title, but since it was included again I just added that it may not have been construed as official information. Hope this helps.
No lesfer (guess it´s you) you´re not helping. You shouldn´t remove "POV" sentences because you decided and which are not. It´s better to discuss and leave a post before here. Do you dispute that Botafogo and Coritiba were meant for relegation in 87 ? Why does this embarass you ? I´ve com to assume you see that this might " challenge" your pitch on 87 Flamengo claim but in fact it is completely independent. It´s a fact that there were 28 clubs (or 26 , granted , have to check) meant to be be in 87 premiership and anyway Bota (35th) and Coritiba (beyond 60th) were in any means meant for relegation whatever the format. If nobody replies sensibly i propose to revert back. And don´t try to smart out with your " trying to show the controversy" by putting the official version to a partisan one on the same level.201.32.149.14 19:16, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I'm surprised actually that Carioca as changed his mind as I'd noted before he would not fall in the trap despite being an open Flamengo fan. No comments on the other guy that barely wites any word of English ("reconheced"??) and is clearly a diruptive fan. Did Carioca change really his mind bcause of this Fifa page mention ? I'm always surprised how Brazilians can misjudge Europeans and believe they really know anything about their country. BTW, if that's true than Santos has won seven times the championship. I would propose actually that if no sensible argument is given we get back to the official CBF title list as per their site. There is no way that Wiki should be a place of any unofficial "arrangement". Flamengo and Sport cannot be judged both champions. Now if Flamengo fans want to do a separate page about Copa União, no problem. But again, I'm disappoint at the irrationality of some believing there is a major "rift" between CBF and FIFA about this 87 title. CBF rules in Brazil, period. FIFA will never recognize a Brazilian title by itself. Actually I feel silly just to write this. How can you guys seriously mean what you write ? Mpbb 15:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As the Copa União is not recognized by CBF, and CBF is the only official source, it is better then to return to the CBF table. --Carioca 21:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to hear this from you. Your link seems broken, probably a temporary old one. I guess the site is now [2].Will make the mod and hope to have your support as there seems some vandals around...

Official?

Please tell me what official publication has recognized Flamengo's title? It just makes no sense, and looks like vandalism to me unless properly sourced. Lomibz 20:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. It is not vandalism, but it is unsourced and needs to be removed. --Carioca 20:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that I have rephrased it a few times, but whenever I come back to the article it has been reverted. It must be pointed out that there's nothing official upholding Flamengo's claims except that FIFA article, which can arguably be a typo. Lomibz 21:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Completely agree, guys. Please let´s not turn the english wiki the mess the brazilian one has become, at least on this subject. It is really becoming borderline vandalism. It is not up to us to prove that God does not exist. It is not up to us to prove that Fifa has recognized, especially when there is a national championship page on the fifa site which directs to cbf site. Now, THAT´s official ;-). I don´t know how to settle this, should we appeal to a super admin for once ? I have no doubt that anglo-saxon legalism will prevail 201.32.149.14 19:06, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's pretty neutral now. Or do you think I should mention the whole mess about the final match between Sport and Guarani? —Lesfer (t/c/@) 19:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There's still mention of "official" publications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lomibz (talk • contribs)
Well, I don think it is neutral in any way to put Flamengo as champion in the table itself, as if it were on par with Sport. This is even worsened as the main title is champions of " Série A" , a recent title which refers essentially to CBF ( that's how the CBF offical site page is calles cbfnews.uol.com.br/seriea). At best you should mention "Brazilian-level or national level champions" if you want to have a blanket word (and in this case you indeed would have to add taça brasil and taça de prata championships as well)

I actually think it is only fair to mention Sport AND add a footnote that this is challenged by many (rather some) and then you could use all the footnote wording (but preferably it would be better to refer to anther wiki page on that). Unfortunately I have to tell that you seem very passionated in your words usage, because I don't know the " mess" around the "modulo amarelo" final (if you mean the penalty kicks I guess) which just showed how everybody knew this was not the final one, as should have been the same for Fla vs Inter, had not the press and the supporters made it up as the true final, as everybody knew the rules. I for mine remember very well to be outraged by this disrespect of the rules by the big 12 as another demonstration of Brazilian authoritarism and elitism . Time anyway proved that it was not CBF's fault if the Big 12 were in shambles by then, if Bangu, Coritiba, Brasil Pelotas, Guarani, América-RJ, Bahia were ruling then and how they would do everything not to get Botafogo, Fluminense and Grêmio relegated with typical gangster attitudes . Unfortunately this was symptomatic of Brazil of then (and still today) where under the cover of " renewal" you only get more of the same. So the whole pitch about how this was a reaction to evil CBF is bogus. And also, please remind (as I guess it was a typo from you ) that the match with penalty kick issue was not the final one, just the modulo amarelo final. So you see, there is plenty to argue about but you cannot put this at any near-official title. Please let at least here respect law. Wiki is not about what " should" but about what "is". And this is the english Wiki not the Brazilian one. I mean, this one is serious. 201.32.182.11 14:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Is it a lie? Several newspapers, sports magazines and television networks do consider Flamengo as the 1987 national champion. —Lesfer (t/c/@) 23:16, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is true, but those sources are not official publications (as they are not from CBF). Maybe we should remove the word "official" and put something else, like "mass media publications" or "Flamengo is widely regarded by the media as the 1987 champion", or something like that. What do you think? --Carioca 04:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Lesfer, you know that Flamengo is massively popular, accounts for more than 20% of the overall population, that the SP press couldn't care less about a final between their gaucho and carioca rivals, etc... Yes there were 95.000 peoples at the Maracanã that day, the semis and finals were great matches though Flamengo should never have played them as Atlético won both turnos, probably Fla would have beaten Sport and Guarani, probably Grêmio and Vasco would have done the same if it were up for them, etc... but that's not a proof, or an argument. 100 wrongs doesn't make a right. 100 reasons won't make Fla officialy the champion ever again. The Big 12 tried a coup and they lost. Sorry.

Can't you hear still today claims that Sâo Caetano, shouldn't be in first division bacause it can't pack more than 1000 people in average ? That's about the same attitude. Of course the main vested people are Fla and other Rio teams who suffer to avoid relegation every year now. If you apply this reasoning Fla should only play a championship of its own against its B team, as public attendance is any decisive fator to any title (well, in 74 you had indeed some teams qualifying on public attendance criteria...) Now let's count: there is only two newspapers that tell that (gazeta esportiva and lance) known to please their main audience as anywhere on the palnet, there is only one soccer magazine, always very anti-cbf especially at that time (led by Mr Kfouri) and there are two main sport commentators (Kfouri agian) and M. Neves (who actually support the official view, but you also may have to discard as he is declaredly anti-Rio, whatever the club). That's it. The rest are supporters and partisans. Globo officially corrected under pressure of CBF the other day one announcement that Flamengo was penta by one of their journalists. So yes it is simple: a majority of Brazilians consider Flamengo is penta because they a majority of Brazilians are Flamengo fans. So please assume a first-world attitude and admit 20% is not an absolute majority. Don't ape French Le Pen's attitude (yes it's far fetched but very similar in form), please. 201.32.182.11 14:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have e-mailed FIFA requesting that they correct their Flamengo article. Hope that will put this silly argument to an end.
Sure, I'm just afraid (actually almost sure) that you will get no response whatsoever, exactly for the very same reasons I've exposed above. Europeans can't care less about Southam championships except Blatter himself, and anyway they won't move a finger about something which is obviously not official to any European (or organized) mind. Even I guess if CBF asked for that they wouldn't probably take it too seriously, it's just too silly. They would just say. " don't bother, look at the national league page, that's what matters, we linked to CBF". They simply will be sincerely unable to get it, unless there is a guy who knows Brazil (and he's probably rubro-negro ;-). Let's write to Blatter ( though knowing his demagogic twists he could indeed deny CBF) ! 201.32.154.76 00:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! What a neutral text... I won't take part in this joke. —Lesfer (t/c/@) 20:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lesfer, don't be ironic and please discuss point by point. I indeed consider this text much more neutral, though as I've mentioned real neutrality would mean not mentioning copa união at all inside the table but just in a footnote. I personally think mentioning copa união already a big concession, but definitely it is not campeonato brasileiro (observe that the mention Copa união does not exist in cbf list while copa havelange is reminded). Actually most of the issues in this article come from the very definition, ie, what means campeonato brasileiro. Série A is awfully incorrect, as very recent terminology. Campeonato brasileiro is vague, as it had many denominations (taça de ouro, série a itself, etc...) and could indeed encompass taça brasil if ones includes copa união, as it would just be an umbrella for any nation-wide tournament. Again the only safe criteria is cbf official list, which basically means campeonato brasileiro (including 2000). And again, definitely you cannot assume this marginal fifa page as a recognition, why is it so difficult for you to understand/accept this ? The default attitude is to assume nothing is new and get confirmation, not the opposite. 201.32.171.240 00:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The information in Fifa site is correct.

The titles listage of fifa related 5 titles, but the CBF have pressioned the organization, and it retired. But, the STJD of Brazil and "Clube dos 13" , with organized the competition of 1987, were of side of Flamengo, and the fifa put again the information in SITE and recongzinged the two clubs.

200.196.29.56 00:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not considering your point of view because a) your argumentation has not logic whatsoever and has no ground, just a juxtaposition of sentences b) worse, as before, you don't have any clue about expressing yourself in English and getting a decent argumentation. I would recommend thus that you concentrate your efforts on the Brazilian wiki and not the English one. 201.32.143.20 00:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Flamengo Pentacampeão

This is a consensus in Brazil the club has FIVE Brasileirão titles.

No, it´s not. And even if it were almost a consensual matter (as arguably there can be no absolute consensus on anything), it would not change the championship official status. Lomibz 04:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is blantant pov pushing all press in Brazil recognizes that, and ever confederations both carioca and CBF. http://flamengo.globo.com/historia/fla_historia.html
OFFICIAL CLUB STATEMENT: Campeonato Brasileiro (5): 1980 1982 1983 1987 1992 http://flamengo.globo.com/titulos/fla_titulos.html
I think this is absurd.. this article say only 4 champions is creating a pseudo-truth indulging people recognizes a fact that is wrong and consensually wrong in Brazil. --Raça Rubro Negra 13:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I accept that most of the press consider Flamengo to have been the champions, but truth is that it is not the press who organize the championship nor are the press who grants the title. As to Flamengo claiming the title is theirs, they are entitled to such a claim, which does not change CBF's official position. Lomibz 04:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ths has been extensively discussed on the top of this page and we are not start this over again. This time if things go on I understand we have a case for vandalism,as there was a consensus achieved and argued above. Please go to the brazilian wiki if you want to creat bagunça. 200.199.23.121 18:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Stop disrupting Wikipedia, there is no consensus against a fact with sources and officially recognized. --201.79.27.9 12:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
CBF is the only official source (so, it is the only relevant source), and, according to that organization, unfortunately, Flamengo won the competition only four times. I hope one day CBF will recognize the Copa União title. --Carioca 21:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Can you state where CBF recognize "only4 titles"? --Raça Rubro Negra 13:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Visit the CBF official website here, and click in the word Campeões. You will see this page, listing all the Campeonato Brasileiro Série A champions. As you can see, in 1987, the only champion was Sport Recife. So, Flamengo, according to CBF, won the competition only four times. --Carioca 01:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Flamengo claims they are 5 times champion. Wikipedia Portuguese agree with that. --Ragnarok Addict 11:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There has never been any consensus because most people see that, eventhough the Campeonato Brasileiro of that year was a joke since all the big teams were gone, it was indeed a Campeonatio Brasileiro. The championship the Clube dos 13 held has never been recognized by anyone and therefor cannot be seen as an actual national title. If you want that fifth national title, write it in the article of the clube dos 13 and not in the Campeonato Brasileiro one. Flamengo has just as many national titles as Vasco, Coritinhians, Palmeiras and São Paulo. Face it. The very least you could and should do is mention Sport and official championship.Kevinklop 16:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Revert war

There has been a revert war in the latest days concerning the 1987 editions. Have we not reached an agreement about that? Lomibz 18:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, a consensus was reached. The consensus was to follow what CBF established. --Carioca 23:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Flamengo is the 1987 Champion.

File:Mengopenta4ps.jpg
Express yourseld in English or go play in Brazilian Wiki. Placar or even panini figures are no proof whatsoever. Please bring new arguments, not ones already fully dismissed. Read previous discussions and know that Placar is NOT an oficial source and actually played an important role in the scission against CBF. All this is self-vested rethoric. And almost sure you even weren't born (at least deducing from your mental age guessing) so don't invent out of the blue.

And do you want the link on youtube from the same Globo of two months ago explicitly recognizing Sport as champions ? I won't give because Globo either isn't any proof so I'll not embark in your "logic". But bottom line, first requirement: discuss in English or you can't have anything acknowledged. If you don't know how to, you have the Brazilian wiki to troll around... 21JuL74 22:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC) Actually I' l propose to delete your contribution if other agrees as this out of place in Portuguese. Will wait for feedback before doing it. YOur arguments are wellcome if NEW and in the appropriate language 21JuL74 22:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Stop trolling. The sourced were added into the original article in ENGLISH. Do not corrupt Wikipedia blanking SOURCED MATERIAL. --Ragnarok Addict 13:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Your childish trick don't fool anyone except yourself. At least you can write a few words in English so do it. What original article are you talking about ? Don't invent. Please read prevous discussion here. 100 documents from Placar won't make it a proof. It has been widely acknowledged that Placar anyway not official and not a SOURCE. Please understand what this means, in the same way the official website of Flamengo is also not a SOURCE. If you "contribution" above is not translated it will be deleted. People have to able to understand your "arguments". BTW, here is the link from Globo, as you insist. http://youtube.com/watch?v=xLDpSXXGzpI. Now this is a "source"from Brazilian media, a very recent one actually. 200.199.23.121 14:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Stop trolling youre violating Wikipedia:Civility - Wikipedia is not a battleground and reliable sources was provided with video, magazines covers and Flamengo website according to Wikipedia:Verifiability. BTW who is made vandalism here is you blanking sourced material and if you continue doing this, your vandalism should be reverted. --Ragnarok Addict 15:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm no more discussing with you and you are right this is not a battleground, I see that you learn from others how to express yourself (guess because of your poor english). We've called you to discuss and you bring no new arguments. You'll be asked to be blocked. You are actually lying as no material has been blanked, But it will now as far your portuguese language is concerned. Stop inverting everything (I guess you take pleasure form that), you are the uncivil, troll and vandal. Again, this was already discussed al nd are not OFFICIAL sources and this was the point all the time. Noone ever denied some press like Placar and of course Flamengo website as claiming its 5 titles. You just ridicule yourself (thanks) by mentioning that Flamnego website is a source Talk about selfvested! 21JuL74 15:49, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Outside trolling and personal attacks, according to Wikipedia:Verifiability the magazine and most important: an historic issue is a reliable source. The fact the team officialy recognize should strong be considered because is officiastatement of an involved party. --Ragnarok Addict 21:51, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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