Talk:The Epoch Times

Employing Falun Gong people?

Is there any truth in the allegations that The Epoch Times employs a disproportionate number of Falun Gong practitioners? [1] That might warrant an mention, if true...

Wall Street Journal once ran an investigation on Epoch Times's tax records, and found that XU Kangang, a FLG speaker, is the chairman of the paper's board.

Hello!? It's the "Epoch" Times, isn't it transparent from the name what it's all about? Don't people know what Falun Gong is about any more?

What should we be able to tell from the English name? It doesn't tell me anything. The Chinese title 大纪元, however, may mean something. My dictionary gives me the translation "The Great Beginning of an Era". Mlewan 08:18, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Falun Gong claims there are "epochs" of repeated universe histories, from creation to destruction. "Epoch" Times is pretty much equivalent to the Chinese title of "The Grand Epoch." It refers to Falun Gong. Most of the many Falun Gong media have names transparently linked to Falun Gong or, self-referentially, to Falun Gong media discourse.

I have also heard the explanation that the paper was begun in 2000, at the beginning of a new millenium. I am pretty sure your explanation is closer to the true inspiration of the name, however.

Dajiyuan literally means "Grand Epoch" or "Great Century". The Epoch Times was founded at the beginning of a new century and new millenia. The name takes note of that, and also suggests this is a very significant time in the world with issues such as the situation in China and Global warming as examples. The term does not refer to the teachings of Falun Gong. --Playing fair 13:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

History

I've been updating the languages some, which are sometimes still switched back. Korean and Ukrainian editions are in fact apparently in print. To verify the lanugages listed, go to http://english.epochtimes.com/language.html. I think it best if the article stays consistent and lists the same number of languages stated in the introduction (which should at this point be 9), until that number gets too long to be practical. (Of course, if someone thinks it's already too long of a list, let me know how long you think it should be so I won't keep updating!)

Under the "history" section, I believe that what Li Hongzhi is currently cited as saying is correct--the paper was founded by Falun Gong practitioners, with a (if not the) pricipal motive from what I can understand being to create a forum in which the concerns facing Falun Gong practitioners would be heard by the general public. I do not know how many of the involved founders had journalistic experience, although I would think that a core of them did have either journalistic or related experience, and that those who were not reporters quickly became such--thus the paper's statement that it was created by a small group of journalists in 2000 would not be innacurate either, and keep from putting off those who might think it was a "Falun Gong" paper and not related or of interest to them.

I don't think that Minghui is associated with the Epoch Times (ET) in the same way that Sound of Hope (SOH) and New Tang Dynasty Television (NTDTV) are. I have always understood that ET, SOH, and NTDTV are all part of the Epoch news/media group, whereas Minghui (Clearwisdom) is a site specifically for Falun Gong practitioners that may be used from time to time as a news source. I have never understood it to be an actual affiliated media. This is not made clear from the current phrasing. Also, what is the last source mentioned? I don't recognize it as an affiliated Epoch group media.

Financial Section

In the new financial section, I had taken out "daily" in the sentence that describes the Epoch Times as the most widely distributed free daily newspaper. It has since been replaced. While the Chinese version is daily (at least for the regions I know about), I thought most of the other languages were weekly or bimonthly (or biweekly for a time in New York), depending on the region and country. Therefore, although I don't think the article currently states the frequency of publication, it seems confusing to say it is the most widely distributed daily newspaper, especially for readers who may have had experience with the English version as a weekly paper. So I'm wondering if there's a good way to make this clearer.

Based on looking at the layout of the Epoch Times, wouldn't any normal person realize they get at least some financing at least from ads like most papers do? This doesn't seem so mysterious and unknown to me; they aren't about to run all those ads for free, except the ones that are specifically associated with the newspaper itself or with their partner media. I'm not trying to say this necessarily accounts for all funding, but I recall ads were included in this section a while ago, and was promptly deleted.

RE: allegations regarding Falun Gong and Epoch Times

The Epoch Times from what I can tell is largely put together by Falun Gong practitioners at present, who as I understand were instrumental in its founding. However, contributions to the paper do not consist solely of practitioners' contributions, nor is it by any means intended to be that way. I don't think the large practitioner contribution is something that people who work on the paper generally deny when asked. It just isn't necessarily something that they shout to the rooftops because the paper is not intended to be judged by the spiritual inclinations of its writers; it is intended to be judged by its content. If you need my source, it is my own experience helping with the paper.

It says, "The paper rarely publishes letters and opinions that do not suit its cause, such as pro-communist and anti-Falun Gong comments, which the paper deems unnecessary. The Times argues that most, if not all government-censored Chinese news sources already contain opinions in agreement with Chinese governmental policies."

Where is the news in this paper? Why do they need to masquerade as a newspaper if their objective is to cast Falun Gong in a sympathetic light by propagandizing "the other side," whatever that is...

It says "The Epoch Times is a conservative Chinese newspaper, " It's not a newspaper and it's not conservative (conservative in what?) It's an anti-CCP pamphlet with a mix of editorialized news and shrill opinions, printed in a newspaper form factor and left out in Chinatowns everywhere for free and picked up by people for entertainment or to wrap fish.

Even if there are more articles about Falun Gong in the paper than in others, its mission is not to cast Falun Gong in a sympathetic light. If you want to see the paper's goal, go to http://english.epochtimes.com/aboutus.html.

Yeah, whatever. They didn't start out as the English version. Their reputation precedes them.

Actually, not necessarily. As a non-Chinese speaker, I am not aware of Chinese-language media unless I am told about it specifically, and I was aware of and learned about the English version before the Chinese version. I therefore was not able to judge the paper based on its Chinese-language reputation, because I did not have access to information about it except through following up on English-language Epoch Times connections.

Here are some non-profit declarations showing the money trail between Falun Gong and Epoch Times(Form 990, Page 2, Part III c):

Southern USA Falun Dafa Association. $10,350 were given to Epoch Times in 2002, $22,700 in 2003, $14,750 in 2004: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2002/760/692/2002-760692185-1-9.pdf http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/760/692/2003-760692185-1-9.pdf http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/760/692/2004-760692185-1-9.pdf

Falun Dafa Association of New England. $57,609 were spent on computer and print media, $97,755 in 2003, $116,823 in 2004: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2002/043/576/2002-043576893-1-9.pdf http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2003/043/576/2003-043576893-1-Z.pdf http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/043/576/2004-043576893-02038ba1-9.pdf

(These are but two examples of the hundreds of FLG non-profits in US.)

Thanks for posting these.

In the first group, the second page seems to have been moved.

This first set also looks more valuable than the second for tracing a trail between Falun Gong and the Epoch Times. Falun Dafa practitioners in general do seem to produce a lot of flyers, CDs, etc. meant to inform about Falun Dafa. These include things like introductory flyers, and the "False Fire" CDs produced a few years ago to counter negative media coverage after the self-immolation incident in Tiannamen Square. I imagine the associations would also have some use for computers to help them update Falun Dafa-related websites and such. So there's no real proof in the second group that any portion of the "computer and print media" went directly or indirectly to the Epoch Times.

In the first group, would at least some of this have been given for various event advertisements? It would make sense to me that advertisements are not for free, since the Epoch Times is not owned by Falun Gong (or officially affiliated on the same level like the other Epoch media are), and the Epoch Times might be one likely place to advertise information about practice sites and workshops. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.75.247.239 (talk) 19:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

RE: allegations regarding Falun Gong and Epoch Times

If my personal experience is any guide, The Epoch Times definitely is connected to the Falun Gong organization. I was given a copy by someone who was proselytizing for them. She was distributing the paper together with other pieces of literature promoting Falun Gong and their web site. And she told me that by reading these things I would understand better who the Falun Gong were.

Falun Gong practitioners do not normally distribute the Epoch Times with their flyers. This inaccuracy has been up as fact several times in the article, despite its subsequent removal by different parties. Also, although the Epoch Times is most definitely not meant to be a newspaper on Falun Gong and reports mostly on other topics, it does contain more articles than most other media sources to update people on the difficulties facing the practice in China today. Letting people know about this is actually more important to most practitioners than trying to convince people to start practicing, which they aren't supposed to push or force onto anyone anyway. This leads me to wonder whether "proselytize" is actually an accurate word for what they are attempting to do, although I agree that the reality of it might often seem otherwise. Regardless of any connection to Falun Gong, the greater number of Falun Gong articles may have been her actual reason for distributing it along with the flyers.

The number of people associated with Epoch Times is few compared to the total number of Falun Gong believers. Without commenting on my strong suspicion of the strong link as originally stated, it still seems quite conceivable that a few individuals with anti-CCP political agendas may take advantage of Falun Gong as a haven.--yiliu60 03:51, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

My my they certainly polarized, bending and lying the truth like only give falungong side to public my comunity are been victim by they news.http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-5-3/41164.htmlDaimond 08:57, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Have you submitted feedback regarding this article? You can do it online. The paper won't necessarily change the way they do things like this unless people insist that they need to do so.

what for it would open and indentify my place instantly and be target by they crime act, remmeber they conection each other, and i think i had enough of them and they karma fruitly result: they been kicking forever from our place and create anti falungong group in indonesia.Daimond 16:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

With regards to the accusation of Epoch Times as the mouthpiece of Falun Gong, it seems there are already at least one or two publications out there through which Falun Gong represents itself openly. Compassion magazine is one of them. I think I remember someone mentioning another to me, although I can't remember what it was called.

The Chicago Reader recently published about the Epoch Times, and mentions some of the connections with Falun Gong. One section in particular says, "In 2000 a group of practitioners retaliated [to the persecution of Falun Gong], choosing a name evocative of the new millennium and launching the Epoch Times as a Chinese-language newspaper distributed in expatriate communities. The paper's representatives insist the Epoch Times isn't controlled by Falun Gong and doesn't speak for Falun Gong -- though contributions from individual Falun Gong practioners help keep it afloat. What's certain is that if China hadn't put its foot on Falun Gong's neck the Epoch Times wouldn't exist." The link to the article is http://www.chicagoreader.com/hottype/2005/051014_1.html.

This article essentially states that Falun Gong is not affiliated with the Epoch Times. My personal opinion is that it is -- I suspected as much the first time I ever picked it up, and it seems like way too big a coincidence that it popped up in New York at about the same time as Falun Gong demonstrations and literature handouts; the party line of the two is identical; distribution techniques are very similar; and an inordinate amount of space is devoted to the subject. I believe the argument that Falun Gong already has official organs, so why would it need the Epoch Times, to be extraordinarily weak. It has always been in any organization's interest to make people believe that it is supported by unbiased sources. In fact, nobody denies that the Epoch Times is a Chinese newspaper, but if you read the newspaper itself, the Chinese connection isn't apparent at all until you notice the strategically placed articles about China. I believe this obfuscation is probably intentional. Of course, this is all my personal opinion, which has no place in Wikipedia. But the opinion that the two are unrelated is just that, an opinion, and it has no place in Wikipedia, either. So I'm removing it from the article. --Masterofzen 21:38, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Criticism

A previous version of this article stated that with regards to the Epoch Times' penchant for negative reporting on China, "It should be noted that although a concentration of these articles may be published in the Epoch Times, many of these negative reports can also be found in neutral overseas Chinese newspapers." Does anyone know if other overseas Chinese papers do carry these articles? A lot of US papers do carry some of them. Should something about this be added back in?

That depends on how you define "neutral newspaper". It is a fact that most papers in almost any language take one stance or another to some degree. In the US, for example, NY Times and LA Times are left leaning newspapers, while NY Post and Wall Street Journal are conservative. In my opinion, there are hardly any newspapers that are neutral. So to answer the question, you can find plenty of these negative-China stories in anti-PRC overseas Chinese papers, such as those Taiwan affilaited ones like the World Journal and International Daily News. However, I would hardly call these papers "neutral". Pseudotriton 06:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

CCP renunciations

The number of CCP renunciations reported by the Epoch Times is constantly revised on their site. This number recently broke 4 million, so it would be more current to keep this number in the article than to change it back to 3.5 million. If you want to check revisions to this number, go to their English website at http://english.epochtimes.com. It's not too hard to find their updates on this subject. Thanks.

The number of CCP renunciations reported by the Epoch Times is still going up. It is now over 4.6 million.

Their so called 'renunciations' are a joke, and should be put onto petitiononline.com. There's no confirmation of identity or membership, and even non-members, babies, dead people, and non-existant people can be signed into, and each IP can be signed more than once. They recently held an anti-China rally on October 1 in Sydney, and I saw local Australians signing, 'renouncing' their CCP membership. Since when did CCP employ foreigners as members? These 'renunciations' means nothing and are not legally recognised, unless done through the proper channels (US immigration forms I-400 & I-485, and [2].

The current article says that "no major CCP official in either the central or regional governments had ever resigned because of the 'Commentaries.'" I'm not entirely convinced that this is not at least a little misleading. There was a case this summer of two diplomats in Australia, Chen Yonglin and Hao Fengjun, who resigned within about a month of each other. I don't know what you'd count as a major officials, but the cases were widely publicized in Australia, and Chen Yonglin received some attention from the New York Times. It seems the Chinese government was (naturally) a bit worried about the publicity the defections were receiving, in any case. It seems also that they may both have been influenced by the Nine Commentaries in their renunciations. Although most reports mentioning this specific point are associated with the Epoch Times, there seem to be a few mentions elsewhere, too.

Diplomats hold little power in or outside China, and it's more likely that these two left the embassy (not resigned) for personal reasons (such as wanting to betray China because its poor) rather than the 'Nine Commentaries'. These two never quoted from 'Nine Commentaries' and are, according to themselves, free from outside influences. Since then these two has disappeared off the media, and faced wrath from the general Chinese community in Australia.

This comes from http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-7-7/30101.html, which is a statement of the Chinese defector Han Guangsheng (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Guangsheng): "After carefully reading the “Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party,” I feel even stronger that the CCP’s rule that is forced upon the Chinese people is a tragedy for the Chinese nation. Therefore, I admire very much the courage in of former CCP diplomat in Sydney Chen Yonglin and former “6-10 Office” officer Hao Fengjun, who came out publicly to resign from the CCP and to expose its crimes. I would like to come out to support them so that they know they are not alone."

It seems in here that he claims that he and others including Chen Yonglin resigned as a result of reading the 9 Commentaries. I knew about Chen Yonglin's defection and assumed it was because of the 9 Commentaries since he gave exclusive interviews to the Epoch Times. So when I read: "Regardless, the commentaries have had no discernible effect on Chinese politics, and no CCP official in either the central or regional governments is known to have resigned on account of the "Commentaries"." I thought that that wasn't right. I would say that the 9 Commentaries has had some effect on Chinese politics since having diplomats defect and give speeches against a government must have some impact. And if Chen Yonglin resigned after reading the 9 Commentaries, that means at least 1 official resigned because of them.

What that text said was "major, influential officials inside China". FLG and Epoch Times claimed that over 10 million people resigned because of the "9 commentaries", yet only two minor embassy workers has came forward. Both Chen and Hao has now disappeared from the media, and influenced little inside China. --PatCheng 14:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

There are a few recent articles (Oct. 27-28 2006) that have been posted on the Epoch Times Website regarding the defection of Jia Jia, Secretary General of the Science and Technology Association of Shanxi Province from the Chinese Communist Party. The articles state that it was directly related to the Nine Commentaries and articles from the Chinese version of the Epoch times. Has anyone seen any articles about this elsewhere? See below for links to three English Epoch Times articles about him:

  http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-10-28/47497.html
  http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-10-27/47482.html
  http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-10-27/47465.html

It seems like maybe a few other places have begun to report briefly on it, but it's still not treated as a big deal by most media. There was mention of him on Channel 8 in San Diego yesterday, and I think there was supposed to be an article on him in Washington somewhere, but I'm not really sure which paper or where to look for that one.

Reversions

When making reversions, please make sure you check all the reversions you make to be sure the edits you are cutting aren't actually based on anything. Among the last few reversions, there was a mention of a second recent award won by the Epoch Times in Canada during Ethnomedia Week 2005 earlier this month (September). The Epoch Times did receive recognition in this ceremony, and it is worth note regardless of Wikipedia writers' opinions of the newspaper itself. The mention of the Epoch Times itself can be found at http://www.nepmcc.ca/articles/awards03.htm (the paper's publisher was recognized), which can be reached from Ethnomedia Week website at http://www.nepmcc.ca/frnt.htm. Thanks.

I find it rather ironic that this cut was made by the editor who seems to want to cut out any seemingly negative parts of the article, and limit the views presented on this page. One of the other editors accused you of "Falun Gong vandalism" in his reversion because of this, as the significant number of Falun Gong practitioners involved in the paper was discussed above. I don't know if you're a practitioner trying to defend the paper or not, but if you really consider yourself to be one, I am rather surprised that you would go about engaging in edit wars when there is a perfectly decent discussion page on which to explain your edits, and perhaps reach some resolution might be reached. (I would appreciate your using the discussion page a little more regardless. Having the page change so often makes it more difficult for the article to stay stable, gain any reliability, and eventually be updated and improved.) I'm sorry for my impatience with this, as I realize I haven't been much of a help taking a stance in or stopping the edit wars up to now.

CCP members resigning

has caused over 5.2 million CCP members to resign. The number is somewhat disputed, as anyone regardless of Chinese citizenship or CCP membership can sign more than once.

Can sign what more than once? Or should it read "can resign more than once"? AxelBoldt 22:29, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Biblical ?

The paper's Chinese editions tend to carry a large number of articles promoting traditional Chinese mythology and Biblical stories

I don't think the Chinese edition contains a significant amount of Biblical stories in any sence. Maybe Falun Gong stories is a better term.--Skyfiler 16:10, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually they refered to the CCP as the anti-Christ and that the CCP will be destroyed by "God". I didn't know Falun Gong worshipped a god.--PatCheng 00:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

maybe they were refer to Li Hongzhi, but I am not sure because they have their own definition of Christianity.--Skyfiler 01:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Falun Gong practitioners don't worship anybody, Li Hongzhi included (or at least they're definitely not supposed to, or they're not following the teachings of Falun Gong!).

Based on what I've read and heard from practitioners' perspectives, I don't think that practitioners mean that Li Hongzhi will destroy the CCP as "God," although he certainly seems to play that role in many regards. I think in general practitioners believe that given the nature/laws of the universe, heaven, earth, today's society, etc, or however you wish to express everything that is relevant to us currently, put together with the past and present of the CCP, the CCP cannot survive and will (and is) destroying itself.

Why even give them credit by discussing all their claims like they are real? Pseudotriton 06:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

You don't have to give Falun Gong credit, you can always wait and see. But in the mean time why not get informed and judge for yourself.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by HappyInGeneral (talk • contribs) .

HappyInGeneral, most of these claims do have a taint of truth in them, but do please take them with a grain of salt. Seeing your user page, it seems that you are a practitioner of Falun Dafa. Don't be so emotional. I'm not denying the acts of torture or the organ snatching, but even the US government has said that even though the claims are true, they are overly exaggerated. Plus, the organ snatching seems to have some elements of conspiracy theories. - XX55XX 20:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Page is protected

I have protected the page from editing as there has been an extremely aggressive edit war with no discussion whatsoever. Please use the talk page.Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 01:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Are the disputed parties progressing towards resolution? I have seen no discussion at all in the past ten days. If there is no objection, I will request unprotection. Calwatch 23:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

External Links

Wouldn't it make more sense to provide one link to the main page-where users can open up foreign editions of the paper by clicking on a separate set of links-instead of having 13 individual links to foreign versions of the same paper?

There's also links that lead users to other, foreign-language, editions of the paper, IIRC. Ruthfulbarbarity 18:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I tried adding a link to the language editions page of the English site, which lists other language editions and provides links to them. It doesn't seem to be working from the main page, despite the fact that I tried to format it just like the other web links. Does anyone know why this is? Could someone who knows how they work fix it? Thanks!

Opinion line in first paragraph removed

"Its arbitrary judgements pertaining to the Communist Party of China have often proved to be the most notorious forms of anti-China propagandas."

I'm removing this sentence. from the first paragraph. I think it should be obvious why. It is already stated that critics find the paper biased. The terms "arbitrary", "notorious", "anti-China" are clearly highly debatable and don't belong here. Perhaps it could go elsewhere with a citation?

Blatent POV pushing by an anon IP. It's gone. CovenantD 14:30, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Controversial sentence describing "Dafa"

Tomananda this is a recurring theme - how Falun Dafa is to be defined. To you it is a mind control cult with political objectives, Li Hongzhi is such-and-such, etc.. To practitioners it is traditional Chinese cultivation practice. You have come up with Fa-rectification and weeding out corrupt beings this time. I would put "a form of traditional Chinese meditation practice". Well, how should we decide how Falun Gong is defined in one sentence? I think the only way to do so is to, by dialogue, discuss the reasons for each different approach until reaching a consensus about the best sentence to use. By reasoning we will be able to find which is the most appropriate. I disagree with defining it the way it is now on the page. Fa-rectification is one way of understanding it, however I would say that it is not the most immediate thing, the most obvious thing, or the most basic thing. It is actually a POV to put it that way. I will try to use an example, though this may not be a good one, I just hope it illustrates my point. When people ask, who is George W. Bush? The standard response woud be, The President of the United States. Not, the greedy capitalist who cheated his way to the top and is now waging false wars for his countrys interest... etc.etc., some other things. That's just an example, it's nothing. The point is that in normal ways of talking and understanding things, the way something is most briefly defined is through the most surface method, the most obvious thing about a subject, or the mainstream thing about the subject, or what that subject itself says. It is to try to reduce the matter of one specific opinion. Describing Dafa in that way is a matter of one specific opinion. Describing as what I said, however, is not. That is the way Falun Gong manifests - the exercises and people following moral standards - and that is the way it is understood by the majority of people who come into contact with it, and it is the way that it is generally conveyed in the public sphere - as a form of Qigong with moral princples. So I would propose using that description for those reasons. I know the reason you want to use Fa-rectification and weeding out corrupt beings. But that is actually not a reason to include it in wikipedia. The actual reason, aside from your personal mission, needs to be a bit more sound than that. So you should explain why what you are saying should take priority over the mainstream interpretation of Falun Gong, or the immediate, surface and most obvious interpretation of Falun Gong. --Asdfg12345 11:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Asdfg: As editors, we just need to report from our sources. In the case of the Epoch Times article, I am not proposing to report that the Falun Gong is considered a cult by some cult experts. We should, however, report what Li himself has said about the purpose of the Epoch Times and how he thinks it should be run by his practitioners. With that goal in mind, I have just expanded the edit. By relying on additional quotes from Li himself (all from the same speech in San Francisco) it becomes clear what Li considers to be important concerning "validating the Fa." You'll notice that when talking about the Epoch Times and other Falun Gong media mouthpieces, Li clearly has "Fa-rectification" and the disintergration of the CCP in mind. You should also note that when talking about the use of the Nine Commentaries as a tool for destroying the CCP, Li does not add any language about "truthfullness, benevolence and forebearance"....so your addition of that language here, which is reporting what the Master himself has recently told his disciples who work in Falun Gong media outlets, what they should do and why, does not quite fit.

Surely if the Master wanted to define the role of the Epoch Times editors in purely moral terms, he would have done so. But instead, he defined their roles in instrumental terms...that is, the Epoch Times must work to destroy (or "disintegrate" as he says in this speech) the CCP. The meaning is really unambigous. Please read the entire speech and you will see that what I have summarized here amounts to fair and correct reporting. --Tomananda 03:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

PS: Here are some quotes to support the sentence about the Dafa:

Li states that (only he and...) the Dafa offer salvation:

Why is it that a being needs to be saved by Dafa and me personally? Or, to put it plainly, [think about] what kind of a being is worthy of salvation by the Great Law of the cosmos? For a being who is saved, could it just be about personal Consummation? So what kind of being deserves to be a Disciple of Dafa? Would you say those people who hide in their homes and "study the Fa" do? Or those who only want to gain from Dafa but don't want to give for Dafa? Furthermore, what about those who, while Dafa disciples are being persecuted, don't want to speak up for Dafa and yet still "read the book" at home and try to get things from Dafa--what kind of people are they? You be the judge.

“My Version of a ‘Stick Wake-up’” (October 11, 2004) [3]

Li states that the dregs of humanity and degenerate world will be weeded out:

Once the saved ones have attained the Fa and left, the dregs of humanity and degenerate world that are left behind will be weeded out. Essentials for Further Advancement II, item 28

Even though the meaning is correct in the sentence I provided, I can offer a different version of the same sentence which only relys on direct quotes:

"The term Dafa refers to Li’s “Great Law of the cosmos” which offers salvation to those beings who are worthy, while “the dregs of humanity and degenerate world that are left behind will be weeded out” in a process he calls “Fa-rectification.” [4] --Tomananda 08:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This is not a discussion for the ET page. This has proven to be very complex, requiring the participation of many editors to resolve, just as we've tried on the Falun Gong page. Tomanada, you know this, so don't try to make it seem so simple. It seems that you're trying seize an opportunity to impliment your biased definion of Falun Gong into another Wiki article. Until we can reach some sort of decision on the main page, there should not be any attempt to define Falun Dafa on this page. There is a link, that's good enough for now. Mcconn 17:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

No, a link is not good enough. We can't introduce a term like "Dafa" and not say something about it in the context of salvation, since Li himself made reference to salvation when talking about the mission of the Epoch Times. Once again you are attempting to obscure the teachings at a higher level. Li has a clear vision of what the Epoch Times needs to do in relation to his Dafa and Fa-rectification, and since he is the Master whose disciples maintain the Epoch Times, it makes no sense to ignore this important material. How can you possibily call my edits "biased" when they rely on direct quotes from Master Li? In fact, why do you think the Epoch Times has the word "epoch" in its title? Don't you think a Wikipedia article needs to report this stuff, or are you going to continue to try to suppress this material, thereby obscuring Li Hongzi's role in defining the purpose and operations of the Epoch Times. --Tomananda 18:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This article is not neutral. Why is it that a small group of individuals can dominate this article with their bias POV when it is clear that the majority oppose the decision? I wholeheatedly agree with the comments made by Asdfg12345 and Mcconn here - clear and simple, this is not an accurate description of Falun Gong, nor have I ever read any reference of "weeding out dregs of humanity" in The Epoch Times or it's mission statement. It seems, everyone else that has tried to change this comment would agree. What is your real motivation here? To report fairly and in a neutral manner or diffuse your own opinion? Certainly not the former. --Playing fair 11:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

What nonsense! Some of us actually think that this article must report Li Hongzhi's statements concerning the origin and purpose of the Epoch Times. Your master has said that the Epoch Times was created by Dafa disciples for the purpose of validating the Fa. He has also said the the purpose of the Epoch Times is to save people. Those are his words, not mine. Finally, it makes no sense to introduce a term like "Dafa" in this ariticle without clarifying what it has to do with salvation. Since the purpose of the Epoch Times is to save people, don't you think a reader of this article deserves some exposition as to what it is people need to be saved from? Hence the insertion of a brief sentence to explain that. The original sentence that appeared was:

"The term Dafa refers to Li's "Great Law"[3]which offers universal salvation and is at this time weeding out corrupt beings in a process called 'Fa-rectification.'"

If you prefer that original sentence to the new one, I am ok with making a substitution. But in either case, there is no legitimate editorial justification for deleting this information all together. For you to claim that this is simply my POV is total nonsense. --Tomananda 19:51, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with tomananda people like me must know what this epoch time did and for? if not it would mistaken to normal or standrat news, like me before and very confused with they articel without wikipidia information maybe i would stay confuse and darknes with they way to release the news or question they way to release news. Epoch time certainly not only have below standart journalist but not credible as news. It's look like people try minoring the fact what epoch time did?. even until now the financial resouce of epoch time are closed to public. for some certain reason they don't want other people know who finance them Daimond 15:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda please dont assume that everyone who offers a diffent opinion practices Falun Gong. My agency works with the local office of The Epoch Times in both English and Chinese so I have seen how they work. I can say that this article, as it currently stands, does not present an accurate representation of the newspaper and its mission statement. From what I see, you and a few selected individuals continue to dominate this article with your edits while your POV is very clear and reflected in your choice of quotes and sources. I am simply trying to keep a professional playing field here. As to the financial resources of The Epoch Times not being public knowledge - that is the right of any private company. The newspaper speaks for itself, readers can make up their own minds based on the content and that is why people choose to continue to read it. --Playing fair 23:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

don't bullshit in here, playing profesional it look like you are not one as you said. if speak that epoch time have right not to publish they source, So where the right to know for us who behind this epoch time and the conection. and i have seen they work to damage my comunity if you forget it, and the news paper are misleading ( not only below standrat journalist and many bending the fact) and doing great crime, what you do make it more worst and make people question what you motif behind, looks like the falun gong try hide and have try sperated the epoch time with falungong activity. and this other The term Dafa refers to Li’s “Great Law of the cosmos” which offers universal salvation to all sentient beings, at the same time weeding out those who have become corrupt and who damage the cosmos, in a process he calls “Fa-rectification this made by falungong folower when i said vague they not understand. this word as reader looklike sood good the comestic word than other term but if you look carefully and question the word, would make you relize there are wrong in this word and these word who look like good would indicate and destroy the founder falungong its self. Its clear there some people try insist use this word would not understand with this word they indicate the founder of falun gong as liar. when people question who this all sentient being or all being in this word. did they think animal world? and where the falungong wild animal folower voluntry come out from jungle to hear the teach of you founder ? did the founder speak to bunch crazy dog, tioger, lion and shark and suddenly they understand and do meditation, etc, as you founder teach?. so congratulation to some falun gong people who insist to use this word certainly the falungong folower are speak they founder are liar maybe you founder would give you medal of honor to falungong folower who stamp and label you founder falungong as liar. What i could said they indicate they founder as liar, this word grant me right to call you founder as liar cause you said it you founder as liar.Daimond 16:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Daimond we are talking here about EpochTimes, if you have problems with the credibility of the articles, please point those out, and perhaps offer proof about it. Making only slander only talks about the person who is doing the slander not about the thing that is slandered. --HappyInGeneral 11:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

About Tormananda's brief explanation of Dafa. The word Dafa appears in the following context:

However as revealed by Li Hongzhi, the founder of Falun Gong (also known as Falun Dafa), the Epoch Times "was established by Dafa disciples for validating the Fa." [5]

As you can see it's about Dafa disciples, so the explanation follows: "The term Dafa disciple refers to practitioners of Falun Dafa"

What else would you want to explain here about Dafa disciples? After all there is the link for Falun Dafa, so everything is explained there. --11:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Introduction

The introduction is to explain what The Epoch Times is in an objective manner, not to launch straight into criticizm - which seems to be the case right now. As was mentioned by Asdfg12345 above:

"When people ask, who is George W. Bush? The standard response woud be, The President of the United States. Not, the greedy capitalist who cheated his way to the top and is now waging false wars for his countrys interest... etc.etc., some other things. That's just an example, it's nothing. The point is that in normal ways of talking and understanding things, the way something is most briefly defined is through the most surface method, the most obvious thing about a subject, or the mainstream thing about the subject, or what that subject itself says. It is to try to reduce the matter of one specific opinion."

This is a relevant point for this part of the article too. For instance, if you check out one of the links in this article to the Wikipedia explaination of the Communist Party of China then you will note that the article does not launch straight into critisizm toward the government and any critisizm is quite lightly worded... considering. Oddly, unless I missed something while skimming through, there doesnt seem to be any mention of their atrocious human rights record (which is an undisputed fact to anyone who has been brought up outside of China) except a solitary link to the Tiananmen Massacre at the bottom of the page. This just goes to show that this is an encyclopedia - not an avenue to vent one's own interpretation of what the newspaper is and its background.

So I have incorporated some information from the ET website and am adjusting the introduction to the following:

The Epoch Times (Simplified Chinese: 大纪元; Traditional Chinese: 大紀元; Pinyin: Dàjìyuán) is a privately owned and independent, general-interest newspaper. The founding Chinese-language Epoch Times started publishing in response to the growing need for uncensored coverage of events in China. It has been in continuous publication since May 2000. Headquartered in New York, the newspaper has local bureaus and a wide network of local reporters throughout the world. Currently distributed free-of-charge in roughly 30 countries worldwide, The Epoch Times maintains editions in ten languages in print, and 17 languages on the web.

Subjects covered include international and national news, business, science and technology, arts and entertainment, life, health, sports and travel, although varying in different countries.

The newspaper claims to have a special strength in its coverage of China and human rights issues, and frequently contains articles with strongly opinionated views on the Communist Party of China (CPC), mainland Chinese society, and groups against the CPC, especially Falun Gong. While the paper claims an independent stance, it has been criticized as being biased with links to Falun Gong and having an anti-Communist stance.

I feel that these short paragraph summarize the content of the rest of the article that follows. What does everyone think? --Playing fair 15:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I think this introduction introduces things more completely than the other one that was previously (and that is now) there. I have read the notes others have written in the article history section and the rest of this discussion, and think this introduction still contains the points I would have thought they are concerned about. (Actually, I think it takes note of all the views expressed in the other introduction period.) But evidently I am wrong about others' concerns. Those who disagree with this introduction, it might be helpful if you could explain more completely why your introduction is better instead of just changing it back again. 66.75.247.239 06:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't totally disagree with your version of introduction, Why don't you introduce it here for discussion before deleting the old version? --Yueyuen 08:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Thats fine, but nothing was deleted. Check out the history, I edited the most recent version by adding content, not deleting. Then my second attempt was to make the same changes with a previous version that still had the quote in the history. Oh, I also corrected the date of the introduction of the 17th language. If there is something that I missed then why not just add in the missing info rather than enter into a revert war? --Playing fair 09:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I found it unfair to reader for delete conection betwen falungong and epoch time certainly some people try to hide some fact about the conection( very clear). The conection are important to see the way the epoch time behave and atitude so many people would not miss interpertion they way or confuse by the action, like they way epoch time and falum gong cloberation crime do to our comunity. it would clear they position why they involved falun gong crime activity. Daimond 15:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I don't understand what relationship this comment has to this section. This section is to discuss two different intro's, neither of which exclude the link to Falun Gong. I think you have strong feelings about this, but personally, I also haven't seen any evidence of the collaboration in criminal activity, or that Falun Gong practitioners generally organize or commit crimes period.

The page is now unprotected again, and I haven't seen any discussion explaining why Playing Fair's is less complete, so I've changed it back.66.75.247.239 00:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)