Talk:Hrant Dink

11:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Islamists?

In this site, it is claimed that he is killed by Islamists. Turkish media blames "ULUSALCI" people (nationalists) for the assasination. This people are generally not Islamists. But some of them support Turk-Islam synthesis. For example, killer of Abdi Ipekci is not Islamist but fascist. (Agca later announced that he was Jesus.)Paparokan

Comments

I added some more info about the trial. I can help translate as well. -- anon

I don't know what to say. They killed him just because he was different. Now we must wait to see what will the state do and then we must expand this article because current article is really poor for understanding the importance of Dink. Deliogul 14:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I hope his killer is found and severely tried. I am loosing faith in the Turkish state. --Hasanidin 15:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I am sure the state will do all that it can, and the Turkish society at large will support it. There is no need to lose faith :) Baristarim 23:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Although I didn't agree with many of his thoughts and comments, there's no denying that Dink was a brave man.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 17:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Hrant Dink was a much bigger patriot than the so-called patriots who kept on accusing him. He fought -and fell- for democracy and an open society. Read one of his last columns (it is now on the Hurriyet website). Describing how he felt after the trial for insulting Turkishness, he likened himself to a pigeon, timid and on alert. He finished his article with "but I know, in this country, they do not harm pigeons". I wish he had been proven right. --Free smyrnan 17:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Concur... I was really shocked at the news. I had read many of his interviews and, all ideological opinions aside, I always had the impression that he valued his country very much before anything else. Sad... Baristarim 21:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we should also mention somewhere in the article his use of the name "Fırat Dink" with the reasons and the duration. I do not know the details fully. Cretanforever 17:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=193825 Here's a column by Yıldırım Türker about Hrant, but in Turkish. It's entitled "Hrant'ın hikâyesi" (Hrant's story). Shall we add this to the references? Okan 18:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I added the bit about his official name.. Baristarim 21:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Outrageous! Another casualty in the campaign of free speech. Still does not look like a good idea to open the Turkish-Armenian border. I hope this tragic murder will be countered by protests and demonstrations. And I hope these political or religious murders in Turkey will stop once and for all... Fedayee 18:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

People started to organize protest meetings. They are walking to Osmanbey (where Dink was murdered) from Taksim. Fedayee, there have been some wild periods in the Turkish dynamics but it is really sad to see the death of a citizen, an educated person. It is sad too loose a bridge between Armenia and Turkey but now he is death and our duty as Wikipedians is to honour him with a nice article. Deliogul 18:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

In a country of 72 million, there are all sorts of people. There are already 70,000 Armenians (citizens of Armenia) living and working in Turkey, so I don't think that opening the border would result in Armenians getting shot :)) There have already been demonstrations... We shouldn't confuse the general standard of society with fringe actions of some groups/people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Baristarim (talk • contribs) 21:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC).

I was not confusing society with some groups/people. I was implying the work of some nationalists and Islamists by saying "political and religious murders" as there usually are controversial killings such as the death of a priest after Benedict's comments on Islam and then the death of a judge, Dink... Surely if more Armenians cross the border to do business or for any other reason in a country where denial of AG is widely rampant, tensions could arise. He was clearly shot for speaking up about the issue. If more were to cross just to speak up, i'd be afraid for their lives. Anyway nonetheless, I am glad and I must say a little surprised protests came up so early :) - Fedayee 23:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

No need to be surprised :)) I am sure that all Turks on Wikipedia are also disgusted and shocked by this. Nevertheless, it is too early to say that he was shot as some sort of revenge for speaking up about Armenian issues, I included a ref that talks about a possible link to Hezbollah. Things are always more complicated then they seem in those parts of the world, but again, he could have been shot for those reasons. As I said, in a country of 72m, you would be surprised at what sorts of people there are :) Hrant Dink was not in sync with many of the positions of the Armenian diaspora organizations and he had a much subtle point of view about many issues, nor was he in sync with mainstream Turkish POVs. Mostly, as far as I could tell, he was much more interested in everyday human issues between communities, since he was a leftist activist back in the day. In any case, it is a very sad event. He was a valuable member of the Turkish society and in a unique position that bridged the Turkish and Armenian communities. Baristarim 00:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Photos of the protests would be amazing.

"Hundreds of Turkish citizens gathered outside Agos chanting “We are all Armenians, we are all Hrant Dink.”"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/19/wturkey119.xml

Video of protests: http://videogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/Video.aspx?s=5&vid=474

I think that the OpenDemocracy link to an obit is legit... ?

I do not think that a ref about a link to Hezbollah would do good to the article... I mean, in the days to follow we are gonna hear various theories and analysis; from Grey Wolves to Kemalists and from Islamists to crazy fanatized teenagers... For sure Hezbollah has not expressed feelings against the Armenians (the recent Lebanese War, were a large Armenian community lives and where the President of the country is half-Armenian, illustrates that perfectly) and, as far as a know, Dink had not expressed any fanatic Christian ideas... Hectorian 01:37, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Lool. Are you sure you are not confusing this with this?? :)) Baristarim 01:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, u are right, i do confuse them... I do not wanna look like tutoring anyone, but when most people say Hezbollah they mean this:). but still, had he ever been threaten by them, or by Islamists or by anyone else, apart from the Grey Wolves and far right circles? If not, it is like we are just confusing things... Hectorian 01:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

True. In fact, personally I think that Islamist possibility is more on the less probable side. The good thing with Wikipedia is that it gets updated as fast as the news and speculations develop, and the bad thing with Wikipedia is that it gets updated as fast as the news and speculations develop :)) You are right, any speculation at this stage is just that: speculation. The article still needs some syntax and grammer cleanup, so hopefully we will get around to it soon... Baristarim 01:55, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Any self-respecting Turk is a Kemalist to some degree. I consider your comment an insult.--Doktor Gonzo 12:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Every extreme ideas are dangerous and those who blindly follow them are as well. I suppose I am not talking about the average Turk, so there is no insult, unless u want to. Hectorian 12:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Now you are suggesting Kemalism is an extremist idea. Previously you were suggesting Kemalists are capable of doing this as if there is a Kemalist gang around.--Doktor Gonzo 12:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Every idea can turn to be extremist, depending on how it is used. I do not know who was capable of doing such an evil thing, but I am waiting to see the Kemalist regime's willingness to find the assassins. Hectorian 12:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah that's when they add extremist next to the word for that idea. Anyway, now we are getting close to the core of your suggestions, now you are questioning Turkey's "willingness" to find the assassins. Nice, nice, more honest, I am sure the next one will be better.--Doktor Gonzo 13:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, the extremists (of whatever kind) do not usually add the word "extremist" next to the idea they believe in... I am questioning what the whole world questions. Time will show; I may prove to be wrong, or I may not. (The best one will come if Turkey will prove to be unwilling and incapable to find the murderers). Hectorian 13:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah but I don't think you are an extremist Kemalist. Feel free to use extremist. Anyway I am out.--Doktor Gonzo 13:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I can't be a Kemalist (extremist or not), for I am not Turkish. Nor did I say that u are extremist, cause your comments are not towards this direction. As I said (and find it quite logical), I am waiting to see what the Turkish government will do... Hectorian 13:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I am pretty much sure that he will get caught quickly, however it remains to be seen if he was a lone-assassin or part of some group. With the video footage released, he will be found pretty fast I think. Baristarim 13:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I really hope that he will be caught. The "lone-assassin" or "group" theories would be interesting to be investigated, but, one thing at a time... Hectorian 14:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

to be honest, I didn't know him before.. Now, i know him and it's too late. another peace dove has been hunted down. I hope this time, the outcome will be different than Ugur Mumcu's or Ahmet Taner Kislali's assassinations. Ati7 05:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe that Hrant Dink's assassination and the subsequent protests really represent a new chapter in Turkey's history. I think that Turkey is closer now to recognizing the Armenian Genocide than it ever was in its 87+-year history of denial. Seeing the public shout "down with fascism" and "We are all Armenians, we are all Hrant Dink" in Turkey on the BBC made me believe that the general public of Turkey is getting tired of the state-line propaganda regarding the Genocide and wants to know the truth about the events of 1915. The eagerness by both the government and the public of Turkey to find Dink's assassins also seems to show a yearning to normalize relations with Armenia. The only reason why Turkey hasn't done so is because of Azerbaijan.

Then again, maybe I'm being too optimistic... -- Aivazovsky 13:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Let's not get carried away :) Turks are tired of journalists getting shot to begin with, and they also value the Turkish-Armenian relationship. From all the footage that I saw of the protesters and TV interviews with people and politicians, the main focus was this. I think that's why there were so many protests, not neccessarily because of some sudden existentialist upheaval - there were many such protests after the assassinations of many other prominent journalists. Plus, "Down with fascism" has been a slogan of left-wing circles in Turkey since the 60s, it doesn't have much to with one event or the other. Baristarim 13:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I still believe that there is a desire among the Turkish public to learn the truth about the events of 1915 and I still think that they're beginning to get tired of the state's position on the issue.

And of course they want to normalize relations with Armenia, there is no reason why it shouldn't be done - however, as it is so often done in the Middle East, Caucasia and the Balkans, the greater geopolitical conjenctures always take precendence over such issues that concern the people on the street. I suppose geopolitical games are also important for a country, so there is not much we can do about it I suppose, sadly. That's why it is such a great loss: he was a in a unique position that bridged the Turkish and Armenian communities as someone who had first hand experience with all levels of both societies... Baristarim 13:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Given the history of Armenian-Turkish relations, I would think that the government of Turkey should show the courage to work with and normalize relations with Armenia in the face of pressure by Azerbaijan. If the government really cared about what the people on the street thought, then they would see that they want to normalize relations with Armenia. I guess what I'm getting at is, if nothing else, Turkey should at least consider reopening the Turkish-Armenian border. -- Aivazovsky 14:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, the chess games in that part of the world are pretty complicated. Turks also support Azerbaijan, but would like to also normalize relations with Armenia at a state level, so there is quite a conundrum. It is a vicious cycle with many wheels turning at the same time basically. That's why I said that there is not much we can do at the end of the day sadly... Baristarim 14:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

It's also interestng to note that Azerbaijan has remained silent on the assassination. -- Aivazovsky 14:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, the relatively recent incident with Burak Bedikyan (Turkish citizen got detained and refused entry into Azarbaijan, with Turkey delivering a note to Baku in the end) really made me feel fed up with Azarbaijan. They do not have the right to pick and choose between Turkish citizens. I feel that Turkey has bent over backwards to accommodate a country that does not return the favor or the respect. --Free smyrnan 15:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to the intrigue filled world of global geopolitics :) Baristarim 16:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Article 301 of the Turkish penal code

How come they haven't decided to put this into question yet? -- Aivazovsky 20:35, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Who? Baristarim 20:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The Turkish government. How come they haven't put article 301 of the Turkish penal code into question? You would think that they might at least discuss it in the aftermath of Dink's death as he was convicted and imprisoned on it. -- Aivazovsky 20:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

They had't ruled out any modifications even before this. However they are still waiting for a clear jurisprudence to be established. The issue that is overlooked is the fact that that article is styled upon similar articles in many European countries, and as such the important thing will be the caselaw that will be established. The High Court of Appeals is still establishing the legal precedences for it (the article is only three years old), and the problem is mainly with that. It is actually a bit more complicated than it seems at first sight. The case against Dink was the work of some busybodies, which further complicates things and it didn't help either.. Baristarim 21:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Translation effort

I would like to have an organized translation effort to build this article from his interviews. However, there are some issues: a) find a credible source (an interview) b) how to cite the translated information. c) organize it into distinct sections so that it would make a meaningful text, instead of an interview. Is it possible?--OttomanReference 18:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it is worth the effort. I can help with the translation, just show me the text.--Doktor Gonzo 18:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The article should express his opinions on Armenian-Turkish relations. People should know.--Doktor Gonzo 18:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

If you find a good one, show it to me. I'm looking for non controversial things. First and most importantly, It should be respectfull to the person and his memory. --OttomanReference 18:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I posted the URL of Yıldırım Türker's 'portrait' above, "Hrant'ın hikâyesi" (Hrant's Story)[1]. Here's another newspaper story on Hrant: "Hayatı, resmi olmayan Ermeni tarihi" (His life was an account of unofficial Armenian history)[2]. You may want to have a look at these --Okan 19:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I just heard the news... I tried to create a new section about his assassination (about how it happened and the condemnations it got). However I am in a serious time crunch and won't have any time tonight. However, we still need some inline citations for one or two paragraphs. Feel free to expand or merge the section.. RIP Baristarim 19:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

In the meantime, wikipedia is demonstrating once again what a shallow news media it is by titling on the main page "Hrant Dink, an Armenian-Turkish writer, is shot dead in Istanbul. Dink was convicted in 2005 for 'insulting Turkishness' by writing an article on the Armenian Genocide." Soon we'll have ties, shoes and pants carrying the brand name. :) Cretanforever 19:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this screenshot useable? Crowd protesting in front of the Agos paper.--Doktor Gonzo 19:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

File:Lv354.jpg

It should be fair use, however I would still check it since it is not neccessarily a critical commentary on CNN Turk itself.. I don't know. Re Cretan: Is there any way that entry could be changed? I really don't know how wikinews entries work. If possible someone can write a better entry and submit it to wikinews editorial staff... Baristarim 21:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Barış, I have no idea on how to submit an entry to the editorial staff and not much enthusiasm for ghostwriting for them. They could have at least put his photo. With the present page setup, it is highly likely for a newcomer to the subject to take Barzan Ibrahim to be Hrant Dink, which is quelque peu disrestpectful of what Dink stood for and it should have been the simplest of considerations at the first place. Cretanforever 22:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Cretan, how is it disrespectful to what he stood for? Anyway, did you recognize how much El Greco and Barzan Ibrahim look alike? Weirrrrd.--Doktor Gonzo 23:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

loool. I agree with Cretan's point about the picture, and also tried to learn how wikinews entries to the main page worked, but wasn't able to learn anything.. I think that somebody "up there" just decides it and boom :) Baristarim 23:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Attribution to Islamists

There is sentence on the possibility that the assasination was committed by Islamists, based on the account that the murderer were heard to say "I shot the non-muslim". This conclusion is superficial. I couldn't find the Turkish original, but if he used the word gavur, it is not only used by Islamists, but also many other including nationalists, as a deragotory term for foreigners or local Christians. In addition, while most Islamists have never been symphatetic to non-muslim minorities, the current political conjecture in Turkey hardly justifies such a conclusion, since many Islamists today are taking position against most of the anti-democratic measures taken by nationalist sentiments. So, while Islamist motivation is always possible, it is not very probable, therefore I suggest removal of this sentence. Balbazar 22:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the report of Kanal D said that assasin screamed "I shot an Armenian" not "I shot the non-muslim". Chief of Naval Operations 22:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that he said infidel, but since we are relying on eye-witnesses, it is normal that speculations are rife.. Baristarim 00:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Everyone can say anything. If they are not stupid, they wont show up theirselves. Because Turkey hates the murderers, so they will hide their names or try to show theirselves as "someone else" like Islamists. Im sure, Islamist did not do that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.104.38.73

I've watched multiple channels and they were all reporting that the murderer said "I shot an Armenian" I don't believe it's related with religion.

(talk) 00:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

Could be.. Listen, the assassination just happened. It is also a good thing that Wikipedia gets updated as soon as the news develops, but it can also be a bad thing - let's just wait a bit to see what will turn up in a couple of days and I am sure that it will be cleared up. Since none of us were there, we have nothing but the speculations to rely on. Since it was an assassination, it is a forgone conclusion that he knew his victim, and therefore knew who he was - which means that it wouldn't be surprising if he had said "I shot the Armenian". Baristarim 01:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

There are some groups in Turkey with both nationalist and Islamist orientation such as the Alperen Ocakları. From what I understand, this guy is connected to such group.--Doktor Gonzo 11:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Expand

There needs to be a general copy-edit and expansion of the early life section.. There is a very good ref from Hurriyet (for Turkish speakers) that talks about his life along with some analysis of his early years [3].. It is very good, informative and is accompanied by very good quality critical analysis. For those who are interested :) Baristarim 23:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The early life section really needs to be expanded, particularly about his activities when he was young and some of the differends he had with the religious hierarchy of the Armenian community of Turkey. But again, most of the resources are in Turkish, so they would need to be translated, and summarized so that they are not copy-vios. It would be very nice since that would explain the later political orientation he would have in his later years... Baristarim 13:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Creating Armenian and Turkish wikipedians cooperation board

Wouldn't it be an everlasting Wikiedian commemoration in respect to Hrant Dink's efforts when we form a Wikipedia:Armenian and Turkish wikipedians cooperation board, where we, Armenians and Turks, could share all the materials and thoughts belonging to our relationship? CeeGee 07:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

It would be great. I mean, we have to show that we can also use words rather than bullets. Deliogul 10:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

It would be very nice indeed. I was wondering the same thing, but I wanted to see how GR-TR thing would work out first. It actually had a good effect, IMO, since it succeeded in at least creating the impression that there was at least a spirit of cooperation in Wikipedia, and I have been noticing less edit-wars in GR-TR related articles. If there is enough interest and we can hammer out a good format for the board, then it would definitely would be worthwhile.. Let's clean this article up, bring it to GA status, and that could be a good stepping stone and a preliminary step towards the creation of that board.. Baristarim 13:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

As "Hrant Dink" put it forward, the "poisoned blood associated with the Turk"; is too tick. It is Armenian choice not to live within the Turkish communities. This even applies to patriarch, whom many times critical to Hrant Dink. There is no second, follower, behind "Hrant Dink." That voice is silenced. The issues would be: a) Armenians would consider it as a plot against the recognition of genocide. b)only and only if Turkish members recognize the genocide would be credible and even in that situation they would always be under suspicion c) the 1915 meters-deep well is too deep to communicate other issues, even if they are minor to them. Sorry, my perception is that Armenians in that group would be labeled as traitor. To be fair their contribution would be minimal. The lost-gain analysis on being in the middle for Armenian is not equal to the Turkish. Armenians who are in the middle are even being assassinated. Thanks. --OttomanReference 15:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Er...what? -- Aivazovsky 15:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Whatever he/she means, I think this whole topic is getting a bit too OT. While it would be good for Armenians and Turks on wikipedia to cooperate, that's best discussed elsewhere. Opinions on Armenians and Turks are obviouslys a big no-no wherever on wikipedia you go 203.109.240.93 15:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

To-Do

• Views section needs major expansion.

I am willing to translate his interviews/articles if we can find a place to use them. --Free smyrnan 14:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Citation formatting

About 75% done. --Free smyrnan 14:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• A quick check with WP:WPBIO for format/style guidance.

Copied it to Talk:Hrant Dink/to do that appears under WPTR banner Baristarim 16:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Translation of Interviews and Articles

In an effort to provide English source material for editors so that editing does not become so conditioned on speaking Turkish, I decided to provide some translations. I assume that once the article is done, we can get rid of the translations, if they provide problematic for Wikipedia.--Free smyrnan 15:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Why do they call Apo (Abdullah Öcalan) “Armenian spawn” rather than “Kurdish spawn”?

Interview with Hrant Dink by Arda Uskan, [4], Vatan newspaper.

Your speech on the last day of the Armenian Conference was met with great acclaim and appeared on the media as “Hrant Dink’s speech made the entire assembly cry”. How did Hrant Dink, who had been considered persona-non-grata by some circles up to now, become an accepted figure?

I think what I said has been understood correctly. In Hürriyet, Bekir Coşkun wrote an article. After reading that, I said “I have succeeded”. I think we might have captured the same spirit with Coşkun. Coşkun wrote for the first time that his own grandmother was Armenian. It made me emotional. This is mutual therapy.

Is this the first time Bekir Coşkun wrote about this topic?

I think yes...

But the same day, we turn the page and come face to face with Emin Çölaşan. He is really provocative.

Maybe it’s a way of keeping balance for the newspaper. For years I have been saying that the Armenian ultra-nationalists and Turkish ultra-nationalists feed off of each other. This is an issue that is too vital to be left to them, because it will affect us and our children’s futures. For both Armenians and Turks... I say we are twin spirits, because half of me is from Turkey, the other half is Armenian. I am someone who lives the mental state of both parties within himself. Everybody sees this as a handicap, however, I know that this is a gift. The image of the Turk in the mind of the Diaspora Armenian is frozen at the time they have left. For them, this Turkish image will never change. Our difference is that we live here, together. In this society you have good people as well as prejudiced people. We heal when we live together with good people. The Diaspora Armenians are without this opportunity to live together with Turks again. If they could, they will reach a healthy mental state.

Are you being criticized by both the Diaspora and by some in Turkey because of these statements?

Let’s not generalize over the Diaspora, the activists in the Diaspora think that this problem can be solved by nationalist reflexes. When you look at Turkey, the society has been told a version of history when it comes to the Armenian question. Official history does not tell society that new and different information can exist, because what you call history is one of the things that make up a society’s identity. Official history cannot say about its own identity: “We’ve written this a bit differently, let’s correct it a little and you correct yours a little”. If it does, society then enters an identity crisis and starts to question; “I wonder what other parts of my identity are also incorrect?”. Because of this, official history has to insist on its version. To keep this identity, for example, they call Abdullah Öcalan “Armenian spawn”. Why “Armenian spawn” rather than “Kurdish spawn”? Because they know what Armenian spawn means very well in terms of the Turkish identity. They have created that meaning themselves.

Has this meaning been created knowingly?

Maybe at that time they had no other choice. After the events of 1915, the first reaction was to forget and to cover it up. This was true also for Armenians. But today, we realize that we cannot be comfortable without dealing with the problems that are at the bottom of our identities. We try to learn the truth of that time.

As an Armenian did you have personal discomforts as a child or as a young man?

The psychology of the minority has a historical background. It is a psychology that adds up as you live. One day, even without any external event, that psychology makes itself known.

You say that it is a sub-conscious emotion?

Completely so. My days as a young man coincided with the Asala period. During that period, we, Armenians in Turkey, used to go around with our heads hanging low. İlhan Selçuk wrote about it. One day when he was going up the Cağaloğlu street, he saw someone he knew by the name of Mihran Efendi, walking with his head hanging low and he wrote an article titled, “Don't bow your head Mihran Efendi”. We did not have external pressure, but we were uncomfortable.

And you couldn't talk about it?

We could not talk about it and also, those who did talk about it, did not say the things we wanted to say. For example an Armenian would stand up and say things like “the Diaspora is vicious, we are very comfortable here”. But this was not our reality.

What was your reality?

We were under a different mind-set because we were always regarded differently. You have left behind the sorrows of 1915. You have lived as a normal citizen during the time of Ataturk... You are about to enter a healthy period... One morning you wake up, just because you are a minority, the state has appropriated your wealth under the name of tax. If you don't pay, you are exiled.... 15 years pass... In one night, on 6-7 September, the houses and stores of minorities in Istanbul are looted. You say “Oh my god, nothing has changed.” The minority mind-set does not appear by itself. There is nothing more natural than the minority feeling unsecure. The child learns not to say “mama” on the street, tries not to talk in Armenian. But, despite everything, we do not want to go anywhere because this is our country and homeland. And this feeling of ours should be taken the right way. If it is, then we will feel that we are no longer “our Armenians” but “us”.

You are getting persecuted for an article you have written?

This is a great injustice. In that article I address the Armenian world. I say, “your identity is being determined by the Turkish phenomenon. You have shaped your identity in relation with the existence of the Turk.”

And you mean by the Armenian world?

Mostly the Diaspora. That is, the world that feels anger towards the Turk. I am saying “this is not healthy.” If you must shape your identity by the existence of the other, this will not save you. “Throw out this blood that poisons you,” I say.

The sentence you refer to is as follows: “The clean blood that will fill up the place that will be emptied by the poisoned blood left by the Turk, is present in the noble vein of the Armenian that is possible by Armenia. If only its possibility can be understood...”

I am saying “throw out this blood this poisons you.” Don't bother with the Turk.

You have written “the poisoned blood of the Turk”?

Not so. I say “the poisoned blood left by the Turk.” The place that the poisoned blood that will leave once you have managed to externalize the Turk; now you have a country called Armenia, fill your identity with that instead. I am telling the Armenian to deal with its own identity and to not feel anger towards the Turk. Can you persecute someone for that? Besides, I will not insult an ethnicity or a religion. For people calling for peace like me, there is no black or white. Life is neither black, nor white. This is what I am trying to tell.

Why did Hrant become Fırat? Your identity card reads Fırat, not Hrant. Why?

3 friends, including myself, we changed our names officially in 1972.

Because of that psychology you mention?

No. This is the first time I am telling this story. Istepan, Armenak and I were very good friends. At that time, during the political gyrations of Turkey, we were sympathizers of a left fraction and we wanted to work within that left fraction.

Which fraction?

TIKKO... We changed our name so that if something happened to us, our community would not get adversely affected. Armenak became Orhan, I became Fırat, Istepan became Murat. Armenak rose up to the Central Committee in TIKKO and died. He is known as Orhan Bakir. But we remained at the sympathizer level because I fell in love and got married around that time.

Did TIKKO end when you fell in love?

No... but me...

They did not want someone among them who was in love...

Maybe... But when we were changing our names, we had an elder brother called Sarkis Şahbaz. We explained the situation to him. We said “Let no one think that we are the sort of people renouncing their identity, we are changing our names to protect the community.”

Why did you not change your name back to Hrant officially?

It doesn't matter, I use Hrant anyway. Fırat was a name I liked a lot. I got the name from a role Yılmaz Güney played in a movie...

It was the name of the Mafioso in the movie “The Hopeless”. Did you used to know Yılmaz Güney?

Of course. We used to visit him in jail.

How did you meet him?

We used to have a circle of friends. Let it remain at that.

On the Armenian Identity (1)

by Hrant Dink Original is at Agos

About generations

7 November 2003

This week, with the 'The footsteps of the fourth generation' article on our back page, we carry to the Armenians of Turkey the debate that the Diaspora has been having on 'preserving the Armenian identity'.

Rather than just mention the topic once, we will try to keep this vital subject on our agenda within the climate of a healthy debate.

Whether or not it is possible to classify the Armenians of Turkey as a 'Diaspora', these debates concern all Armenians, whether or not they are called Diaspora or something else, including even the citizens of Armenia.

The Armenian world needs the process of questioning and self-criticism on how to shape its tomorrow and this process should no longer be missed.

The process that needs to be debated involves a number of questions.

For example...

Has the dispersion of the Armenians to the world been of use in preserving the identity until now? Is this dispersion truly a 'Diaspora that has lost and is looking for its identity'?

Can an Armenian world that has been scattered all over the world preserve its Armenian identity?

Is it possible to keep the identity alive without assimilation in this dispersal?

With what values should we fill the definition of the 'Armenian identity'? Are these values able to satisfy the needs of the age in which we live?

Is being spread around a real threat for the loss of identity? Does being widely spread also offer advantages for enriching the identity?

Where in the Armenian identity can we place being local and universality? etc. etc.

And even, a more radical question that some heedless people ask?

Is it necessary to preserve the identity and remain Armenian?

It has become necessary to 'live with fear' for the Armenian identity in the last century.

Especially, the fear of disappearing, of extinction was, until recently, the main problem of the Armenian world. This psychology persisted until the independence of Armenia in both Diaspora and in Armenia.

The people in Armenia feared that since they were not able to freely express their religion and nationality under the reigning Soviet regime and culture, they would eventually forget, and the people in Diaspora feared that they would lose their Armenianness under the majority cultures of the countries in which they live.

The first and second generations of the Diaspora Armenians did not especially feel a need to ascertain the continuation of the identity in the countries they immigrated to. The continuing effects of the trauma they had suffered was by itself a major identity and did not need an extra effort.

In the third and fourth generations, this situation changed drastically.

In 1915, neither the world, nor those responsible for the trauma did anything, but time was without mercy and had its own process.

A serious erosion in the identity began despite the traces of the trauma that had been transmitted across generations, Armenianness began to be forgotten and Americanization, Russification, becoming French began to accelerate.

It was in these generations that mixed marriages increased, Armenian names were left, language was forgotten and the church was neglected.

The atheist pressure that the church underwent in the Soviets was the bitterest portion of the unraveling of the identity, the Church that could barely preserve its own existence with the services that it could perform with difficulty, could no longer play the historical role on its congregation. However, the role of the Church in determining the Armenian identity was great. The weakening of the church was enough for weakening the Armenian identity.

I did the translation (and it is a rough translation, I tried to keep it as verbatim as possible and that makes it rather awkward). The original is at Agos. This series was the one that led to Dink's persecution under 301. I will remove the translations if people complain. I am now making it available here to allow other editors to distill Dink's views. --Free smyrnan 23:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

On the Armenian Identity (2)

by Hrant Dink Original is at Agos

Role of the church

14 November 2003

In reality, the Church's existence only covers the last 1700 years of the ancient Armenian history of 4000 years, but the historical Armenian identity is almost completely filled by it.

Not much seems to have been left from the pre-church periods. What remains are customs that the people somehow never gave up and the Church had to accept. The Church that wiped out all of the temples, statues and figures of gods and practically all of the values of the pagan period, incorporated the customs it could not stop and took them under the roof of the church and turned them into rituals of the church.

Many of today's holy days that we celebrate are nothing other than pagan customs adapted to Christianity.

Since we are talking of what has been left from the past, it will be appropriate to mention how much of the Armenian cultural history is filled with religion.

The data that reflects this the best are the historical artifacts that remain in both today's Armenia and yesterday's Armenia (Anatolia).

Most of historical sites are churches, chapels, monasteries or Khaçkars (tombstones) that also belong to the religious realm. Again, today's museums in Armenia are filled mostly with items that belong to or pertain to the Church.

This is so extensive that the role of the church in music, the role of the church in literature, the role of the church in architecture, the role of the church in art need to be questioned separately and when we look at each, it is inevitable to reach the conclusion that the influence of the Church is rich and its role can easily be demonstrated.

All of these questions take us to this conclusion:

The role that the Church plays in the definition of the Armenian identity is so large that even today, when you talk of Armenians, the definition is one of an Eastern nation that has merged its ethnicity and its religion like the Jews.

According to the Orthodox view, it is not enough to say 'Armenian equals Christian'. It is necessary to emphasize 'Lusavorçagan' that gets its name from the Saint Krikor Lusavoriç who founded the Armenian Church as a derivative of Orthodoxy and to say 'Armenian equals Lusavorçagan'.

This is valid to such a degree that Catholic and Protestant Armenians that broke away from this church were not regarded as Armenian for a long time and were externalized.

But these externalizations were mostly at periods when there was no state and the Church stood in place of a state at the head of the nation and today no longer holds true.

The current period where there is a state formation is the mark of a new beginning. In Armenia, which claims to be a democratic and secular republic, freedom of religion is assured and whether the Church likes it or not, the Armenian identity will be subjected to new influences.

The multitudes of belief systems and sects that proliferate in Armenia are the mark of these influences.

One of these days, it should not be surprising that someone will be able to say 'I am Muslim but Armenian'.

The needs of the current age dictate that such a person will also wish to integrate his particularity to the Armenian identity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Free smyrnan (talk • contribs) 23:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

On the Armenian Identity (3)

by Hrant Dink, original at Agos

Children of Kaç Vartan

5 December 2003

In the end, the Armenians are also a typical 'Eastern nation'. Therefore, the weight that historically religion holds for Eastern societies is also valid for Armenians.

The weight that religion has held in the life of the Armenian nation continued unbroken until the last century. Nationalism and religion completely intersected in this period, and the 'National Church' was taken to be synonymous with the religion and nationalism elements that is required in the making of a nation.

This was to such and extent that religion and nationalism came to stand for the same thing and 'one could not exist without the other'.

Vartanants Baderazm (the war of Vartanyan) that Armenians had with their pagan neighbors the Persians at the start of the Armenians' Christianity is one of the important examples that show the indivisibility of nation and religion.

'Vartanants' is translated in two ways in the Armenian world.

The first (and the correct) version is that this is the 'War of Independence of the Armenian Nation' against Persian rule. The second and the one that the Church puts forward is that this is a war in which religion was defended.

No matter which version one takes, it is impossible to deny the national and religious role the war of Vartanyan has played in the Armenian identity.

The two events that have left their mark on the Armenian identity are the events of 1915, and this war that took place on 451 AD.

1915 symbolizes victimization, 451 symbolizes heroism.

Heroism and victimization are, again, two main points of Eastern identities.

The meaning of Vartanants that has been transmitted to today points out that the Church's version of the event has prevailed.

The heroes that died on the battlefield resisting the fire-worshipping Persians rather than renounce their religion, while adding the necessary heroic element to the making of a nationalist identity, have also etched the importance of the Church indelibly on the identity.

In the end, the war of Vartanants, even though it ended with the defeat of the Armenians, has become a symbol of not renouncing religion and has made Christianity an unbreakable part of the Armenian identity.

The heroism of the Kaç Vartans (Brave Vartans) is a ritual that flows from Armenian history into Armenian identity, repeated continually.

In Armenian schools in the Diaspora and Armenia, if one wall is dedicated to 1915, the other wall is dedicated to the Kaç Vartans.

Nationalism independent of religion can only be seen in the last century. Experimenting with a 'Non-religious Armenian identity' is a product of the last 3 quarters of a century of the Soviet period. One has to accept that the success enjoyed by the system that tried to eradicate both local nationalisms and religious beliefs with the materialist philosophy of the socialist teaching is crippled. Even though materialist philosophy manages to remove some people from their religion, nationalism does not share the same fate. In the end, the huge Soviet disintegrates and these nationalist resistances turn into new and independent republics on the Asian continent.

The Soviet period is a time when, new cultural foundations are laid for Armenians, like other nations that have since won their independence.

In this period, the number of socialist, atheist and nationalist intellectuals increase.

In Armenian culture and art, works that are independent from the church are created. The Armenian culture and art shifts out of its local roots and meets with universal values. Artists that are able to think and create universally appear during this period.

Yes, it is true that the Soviet period has trampled the Church, but it has also led to the Armenian culture aspiring to universal dimensions.

Most of the Armenians today that live in Armenia are distant to the Church. Because of this, the Church has concentrated all of its energy on reducing this distance and to win back the social influence that it has lost.

Although the efforts of the Church are understandable, it should be accepted that nothing will be the same.

From now on, it will not be sufficient to define the Armenian identity with values from the past.

If life has scattered close to 5 million of an 8 million strong Armenian world all over the earth, they will not be exactly similar to one another. If they have started to have 'double identities', if even majority of the citizens of Armenia try to leave their independence and look for new lives in other countries, trying to jail the Armenian identity into limits defined by the Church no longer makes any sense.

It should be accepted that it is no longer possible to limit the Armenian identity with religious motifs and nationalism.

The flavors of the identity are increasing and it is needed to add new sentences to the definition of the identity.

Religion

Would someone please clarify Mr. Dink's religious beliefs? His funeral, according to this article is being held in an Armenian church, but as Turkey is predominantly Muslim my initial assumption was that he was a Muslim. Thanks. -- Sapphire

In fact, he was a far-left activist when young and frequented many such people, so I am pretty sure that he was an atheist - nevertheless, culturally he will be buried according to Armenian traditions in an Armenian church. But the religious beliefs info would need to be sourced, so if someone has a good source, that would be useful. Baristarim 18:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

If he was raised in Turkey's Armenian community, then he was most likely an Armenian Apostolic Christian. This may need to be verified though. -- Aivazovsky 18:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

That his funeral will be held at the seat of the Armenian Patriarchate should be enough verification. --Free smyrnan 18:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Correct. Btw, if he was an atheist, his funeral would be a civil one (I assume that this can be done in Turkey). Hectorian 18:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

OT, but a few words on that. The identity card shows the religion. The default is the religion of the father, written up when you are born. If you want to change it, you go to court. Heard of a few cases, aside from the slow moving paperwork and usual bureaucracy, no official sanction against doing that. However, the reality is, if you are simply an unbeliever, you don't really go to court to change the religion to "without religion". Besides, as a minority I am sure he would not do that. --Free smyrnan 19:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, i got what u mean; similar thing with the ID cards used to happen here as well, till a couple of years ago. But, as u said, the fact that his funeral will be held at the seat of the Armenian Patriarchate is enough verification. Hectorian 19:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Not neccessarily for the funeral. My grandfather was also an atheist but he had a Muslim funeral: it is extremely rare in Turkey to do such civil funerals, and considering that he was such a prominent person in the Armenian community it would be seen as really weird if he didn't have an Armenian funeral. Particularly when there is not a huge movement for civil funerals in Turkey. The motivation there is not religious, but cultural. Many people see religion as a part of their cultural identity, which means that they say "what the hell" and proceed with religious funerals anyways just to keep in sync with the wider communities. I am pretty sure that he was an atheist, or at least agnostic, and he was part of TIKKO (Turkish communist revolutionary army of something), an illegal paramilitary far-leftist organization, when he was young [5]. I would not advise to put in there that he was an Apostolic Christian, because many of his biographies include information on acts that would contradict such a categorization and he criticized the overlapping of religion and cultural identity that had taken place in the Armenian community in Turkey. I just say let's leave it blank. When the BIO will be expanded and his life will be talked about in more detail, readers will be able to make their own minds I think... Baristarim 19:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

He criticized the way the religious weight of the church stifled democratic process within the community. But seriously, religion and cultural identity, especially for a minority tend to merge to such an extent that I don't think he would have minded having a religion stated for him. Personally, after living in the US for more than a decade, I had taken to answering the "what religion are you" question as "Muslim atheist" - because there was enough difference in the cultural side of things to make me mention the religious background I possessed by birth. --Free smyrnan 20:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

People don't possess religion or religious background by birth: they will only have one if they choose to do so and assume as such. I ran into similar situations in the states, and even though in the beginning I used to say that Turks were Muslim "as a general thing" the same way French are Catholics etc and how I was a Muslim "originally" (?!), but after a while I said "whatever" - mind you, it was still a hard thing to do since saying that you are Atheist in America can raise more than just a few eyebrows and that was the only reason I was including Muslim ID for a while. But later I simply decided that I just didn't care anymore, it cannot be my problem if Americans have been taught to think of atheists as some sort of aliens. I prefer Europe and Turkey on that matter, States can be a really weird place if you are an atheist :)

As for Dink.. I am sceptical of religion by personal conviction so I might not be neutral on this, but stating his religion as X might really be weird when the info about his youth activities will be included. Even saying that he was born in an X religion family could be OR since we don't know if his parents were religious to begin with. I agree with the idea of convergence of cultural and religious identity for minorities, but for Dink I really think that religion was definitely not a big part of his identity. I sometimes go to Turkish cultural centers that converge such identities and as such incorporate mosques in France when I'm doing some "diaspora work" (even taking part in religious festivities sometimes), but it would kind of disturb me, if ever, a bio was written about me posthumously and said that I was a Muslim just because of that. :)) My TR ID card also says "Islam" when you think about it.. funny world... Baristarim 21:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

You mentioned earlier your grandfather being an atheist - maybe this means you are freer of the cultural associations of religion. As for others, who come to atheism by conviction at a later age, the cultural associations and habits remain. I will say the occasional prayer after the dead when appropriate for example. I use it as a means of a moment of reflection on the person. But when I do so, I use the Muslim form, simply because that is the cultural norm for me. That is what I meant. BTW, I recommend Dawkins' "The God Delusion" - highly enjoyable. For Dink, when he was starting up Agos, he convinced the Patriarchate that a bi-lingual newspaper would be of use and gained their support. I agree that his political views probably mean that he was atheist, but he does not seem to have been anti-religion at all. --Free smyrnan 21:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean.. I don't think that he was particularly against any particular religion, but he definitely needed the support of the Patriarchate before he could undertake a project like that. Kopruyu geçene kadar ayiya dayi demek lazim :) Where I live in France for example, it sometimes amazes me the stuff that Turkish Imams of the Diyanet get involved in: Kebab store openings, accepting to be the "trusted middle man" in business deals between Turks, arranging legal assistance for Turks in trouble, taking care of administrative problems of some Turks etc etc :)) When I deal with Turks for business or for legal matters the Imams always show up at some point, it is really weird.. And mind you, most Turks where I live are definitely nor religious. For a minority, religion is an integral part of the culture, even if members of the community only show up at the mosque/church/synagogue for the occasional meeting.. Baristarim 21:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if those informations were retrieved to include in the article. [6]

I think that info about the capture of Ogün Samast was included moments ago. By the way there is a new article for him as well.. Baristarim 22:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I saw in the news that Ogün Samast was among the people the police had stopped and interogated (maybe i am not using the correct English words) shortly after the assassination, outside a metro station in Istanbul. And that they had not found the gun on him. It was on Canal D, and there was actual video about that, showing policemen talking to him. I cannot understand Turkish, but if someone who does, can find something interesting, it would be good to add this on the article. [7] Hectorian 22:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. I am watching Turkish tv too but the news rolling in seems kind of hazy. What is for certain is that he is a minor and from Trabzon.. I will check the link.. Baristarim 22:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The link says that the photos were taken from the CCTV of the Akbank branch near the newspaper. The article says that the police's computers had found a probable visual match with a registered criminal from Sirnak, but that theory was later discarded apparently. The news is just rolling in for the moment, and there is a lot of commentary on Turkish tvs so it is hard to pick through the fat to find the facts for the moment.. Baristarim 22:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanations on what it was about:). and a question (as if someone can answer...): seriously, what is the problem with Trabzon? first the murder of the Catholic priest, now this assassination... In both cases the murderers are from there. Hectorian 23:02, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

No problems! That's exactly what the commentaries in the news are talking about, as well as many Turks I am sure :) As far as it is known in Turkey, Trabzonites have a reputation of being really hardcore - macho, mafia-types, all that sort of stuff. I don't want to speculate and offend any Trabzonites - but that's just the reputation that they got, rightfully or wrongfully. Very similar to the stereotypical images of Sicilians. In fact I heard definitely more than once Trabzon being referred to as Turkey's Sicily.. But this is practically all gossip at this stage I suppose.. What remains to be seen at the moment is if there is anybody or organization behind him. Baristarim 23:10, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

A Turkish friend once told me that the people of north-eastern Turkey are rather religious... Maybe it means nothing, but when I heard Ogün Samast is from Trabzon, I remembered the murder of the Catholic priest as well as what the assassin of Dink is reputed to have said when he shoot him... Anyway, I may be carried away... Hectorian 23:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree Fad (ix) 23:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Hrant Dink was a Christian of Armenian descent, period. [8] --Davo88 23:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Let's wait for the religion info. Pls take a look at the other bio info that has been discussed right above. That bio made some hasty decisions, and is too general. I seriously doubt that he was religious to begin with and very most probably atheist or agnostic - even though he most probably was raised in a rather Christian community. His best Armenian friend was in the central committee of TIKKO (Turkish communist revolutionary army of something) that Dink was a part of for years when he was young. That bio really made a mistake showing this as something Muslim vs Christian. We shouldn't make such hasty conclusions since that would be too simplistic. Baristarim 23:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Not extremely religious (not as much as the southeast for example), however a strong blend of religion and nationalism. Again, let's not give into speculation. We will know soon enough. Baristarim 23:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Here's another article that supports the fact that he was Christian. [9] -- Davo88 00:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I see no harm with writing he was born a Christian though. And the source being Reuters is as good as the BBC IMO. I found another link claiming he was Christian [10], he could have not been a practising Christian but I doubt it ever says he rejected these beliefs. I don't think people would mistake it as being Christian vs Muslim thing just by reading what his religion of birth/choice was. Every bio could state what a person believes in or doesn't anyway. Fedayee 00:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

When such news organizations make bios haphazardly they can tend to have very simplistic views on the subject. This is an interview by him where he discusses extensively his involvement with TIKKO that lasted for years, and the membership of his best Armenian friend in the central committee of that organization [[11] (in TR though). Let's just wait and when the early life section will be extended, the final version would be something like "he was raised in a Apostolic environnement... He later espoused a leftist ideology when he was young and ...". That section still needs expansion. I just think that labelling him as a "Christian" would be too simplistic. However there is nothing wrong with saying that he was raised as a Christian when he was young, but my concern was that it can unbalance the article and give the impression that he was a Christian activist if that other info about his later life wasn't included. That's all.. Baristarim 00:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, there is such a thing as Christian communism. One can be leftist and retain the Christian faith at the same time. Even in Soviet Armenia, Armenians were given the right to worship to a certain degree (Nikita Khrushchev allowed Catholicos Vazgen I assumed the duties of his office in 1955). -- Aivazovsky 00:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that the info in the early life section makes sense, but not the one in the infobox. Seriously, that creates a very big logical inconsistency with many other interviews he gave later on - i am not saying that he rejected any religion later on, but simply labelling him as "Christian" is way too simplistic, his adopted name comes from one of the characters in one of Yilmaz Guney's movies, whom he personally knew. I think it is best if this is developed in the early life section. I might be wrong, but it seems a bit more appropriate.. Baristarim 00:26, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Clevelander, I understand what you are saying, but it is a real stretch. Please remove that info from the infobox; If that's the case, his earlier involvement with communism must be mentioned in the infobox as well - however that would really screw up the infobox and make it look really weird. let's develop this in the early life section. Baristarim 00:26, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, he could well be an atheist, who is to tell? Fad (ix) 00:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I decided that it isn't worth arguing over. I removed the information from the infobox. Best, Aivazovsky 00:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean any offense either way. It is just that the news is streaming in and I am trying to run around related articles updating information and trying to expand them at the same time + verify new edits and fend off sandboxes et al! :) This article still needs expansion, so I am sure that everything will be covered in due time. Cheers! Baristarim 00:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I can understand the concerns that we should be careful and not lead the readers to believe it was a Muslim vs Christian assassination, but we do not really have sources stating that he was an atheist. or do we? been a leftist does not necessary mean non-Christian... We know for sure that he was born as an Armenian Christian and we also know that he had close contacts with the Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople (i do not know if he had extensive links with other Armenian hierarchs, but this is enough, I suppose). Apropos, we cannot "measure" someone's faith... a devoted Christian is not more Christian than me (that I go to the church only on Easter). since Dink was raised as a Gregorian Christian, since he had not ever denied that he was a Christian, since he had not said that he is an atheist and since none ever questioned about his religious beliefs (taking for granted that he is Christian, since, I am saying this again, he never said he had stopped being), there is no question about that... I suppose that's the end of story; his funeral will be held in the Armenian Patriarchate by Mesrob Mutafyan... We have nothing in our hands to say that he was an atheist... Hectorian 00:33, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I see your point and I said that I might have a different look on the religion issue, but I also think that it can work the other way: many people are raised in a religion, but not neccessarily continue to stay as such. It would surprise me if in any minority in the world people didn't at least keep in some sort of touch with the religious leader associated with the community. I am sure it will be developed in due time in the main. Baristarim 00:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Guys, just read his articles on Armenian Identity. He talks of the religion and ethnicity having become inseparable and synonymous in the Armenian identity. I am not translating this stuff for no reason :). --Free smyrnan 01:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm just finding the sources :) , I don't insist on mentioning the fact that he's a Christian. It will make people interpret what is going on as "a Christian vs. Muslim conflict", while in reality, a fascist Turk killed an Armenian... -- Davo88 01:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

How about "a fascist killed a prominent intellectual"? :) Baristarim 01:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

No, not according to the shooter at least... He said "I shot the Armenian". -- Davo88 01:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if you're an Armenian or a Turk, the guy who shot Hrant Dink deserves to remain behind bars for the rest of his life. -- Aivazovsky 01:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem is even if the guy is given a death penalty that won't solve the true problem here which is the mentality behind this assassination. I think this event is, should be, a true eye opener for Turkey, it was for me.--Doktor Gonzo 10:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I hope that, if anything should come from this, Armenians will no longer be portrayed as "dogs and traitors" by the Turkish government and media. I mean, you can only kick a dog for so long. In this instance, the Turkish government has been kicking Turkey's Armenian community since 1915. -- Aivazovsky 13:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Armenian name

Armatura added "կամ Հրանտ Դինք" to his Armenian name ([12]). Can someone who knows Armenian please translate this? Khoikhoi 23:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I was just thinking that it seemed too long.. Pity we don't know all alphabets! Baristarim 23:37, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Կամ Հրանտ Դինք (gam hrant dink) means or hrant dink, because of the USSR, Armenians who remained in Armenia adopted a reformed Armenian orthography and Armenians in the Diaspora stayed with the traditional one. That addition is probably because of that separation as his name could be spelled two different ways. But I do not know which one he used to spell his name is Armenian actually. Fedayee 23:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I remember reading about that in Spelling reform of the Armenian language 1922-1924. We should probably spell his name in Western Armenian, as I'm guessing it was the language of his family. Khoikhoi 23:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

He's from Istanbul, so he used Western Armenian. In fact, before the Armenian genocide, Istanbul or "Bolis" was the heart of the Western Armenian speaking world. They still learn it and use it now. Thus I consider the addition of the Eastern Armenian orthography unnecessary. -- Davo88 23:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Davo, Hrant Dink is written in the same way in both orthographies. The one you added is wrong. The name is pronounced differently but it's written the same way!-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 00:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, I hadn't thought that it was a difference between Western and Eastern Armenian. Cheers! Baristarim 00:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Eupator it's pronounced an written "Hrant Dink" in the Western Armenian way as shown here in a press release from the Armenian Prelacy of Canada. [13]--Davo88 00:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Armenia's media is spelling it ՀՐԱՆՏ ԴԻՆՔ. But this is really trivial in regards to the whole article.--MarshallBagramyan 04:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I suspect what's going on is that the Armenian media is using the Eastern Armenian spelling of Hrant, which is a fairly common name in the Republic, and appears to actually be spelled differently in eastern vs. western, but then for the last name, which I have not encountered before (with or without the -ian), I suspect they are doing a straight Eastern Armenian transliteration. But he would have definitely used western and so I'd go with the Armenian Prelacy of Canada spelling. --RaffiKojian 05:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

You guys are all confused, the name is written the same way regardless of the orthography. The only difference is the pronounciation. The prelacy is wrong, they wrote the name the same way the pronounce it.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 15:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

"Anti-Armenianism" link

I removed the link to the Anti-Armenianism article. I can see how Anti-Armenianism can refer to Dink's assassination specifically, but not to his life as a whole. -- Aivazovsky 00:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Aguably enough, the assassination shot his stature across the world. Just compare his article on wiki before and after his death which is kinda sad. The assassination itself is a big event and IMO is worth noting, especially since the assassin claimed to have said "I shot the Armenian". - Fedayee 00:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I thought he actually said, "I shot the infidel"... Khoikhoi 00:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, according to Hurriyet's eye witnesses, it's "I shot the Armenian" [14] Fedayee 00:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Other sources said he shot a "non Muslim" and he has gotten many threats through out his life. Nareklm 00:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

No. That's plain wrong. I think it's a translation error or the editor of the foreign press purposefully changed it to "non Muslim". Many eyewitnesses confirm the shouting of "I've shot the Armenian!" in TV channels.

he said "i shot the armenian". it says in the hurriyet newspaper accounted to his secretary. 85.99.58.170 01:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it can be categorized as Anti-Armenianism. I am really ashamed of this event, it is more than anti-Armenianism to me, it is a direct blow into the conscience of this country and its democracy.--Doktor Gonzo 10:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Disappointing...

I find it disappointing that since Hrant Dink's assassination, I haven't seen any major coverage of the event in the United States national news. Senator Hillary Clinton and President George W. Bush got most of the press today. -- Aivazovsky 02:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Sadly the US media doesn't report on the murder of "foreigners" with "funny names" unless the US government is somehow responsible for the death. I'd hope 9/11 would wake us up to the idea that there is a wider world we should pay attention to, but it didn't.--T. Anthony 05:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't know about the USA but here in Canada, it's gotten a respectable amount of attention. They even showed the Armenian student protest in downtown Montreal today against the murder. It's also big news in the Middle East as it has been headlining Aljazeera for almost 2 days now. -- Fedayee 03:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Its received extensive coverage in the Spanish El Pais, most notably an editorial [15] that I found very insightful (the title writes "Without recognizing our past, never we will be able to live the present").--MarshallBagramyan 03:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The assassination wasn't covered in the US News at all from what I could tell. Nothing in the San Diego papers at all. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 09:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Well there were some American newspapers that mentioned it, I thought you meant TV news. At least the online sites of several newspapers mentioned it: San Francisco Chronicle[16], Los Angeles Times[17], The San Diego Union-Tribune[18], Houston Chronicle[19], Casper Star-Tribune[20], and a few others.--T. Anthony 10:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

What did the gunman shout

I have heard reports that he shouted 'i shot the infidel' or 'i shot the non-muslim' or 'i shot the Armenian'. Does anybody know which is true, as it is kinda important for determining the motive--Boris Johnson VC 12:43, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Ogün Samast

Something just isn't right here. Samast shot Hrant Dink, but he's only a kid (17 years old). Somebody had to put him up to it. There needs to be an investigation. -- Aivazovsky 14:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I suppose that it would be difficult for a 17 years of age kid to, at least, find a gun... (maybe not difficult for the USA, but definately difficult for Europe). Someone gave it to him... Hectorian 15:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Translation is wrong

Reference on the trial which is translated as "poisoned blood associated with the Turk" is wrong, the origial term is "Türk’ten boşalacak o zehirli kanın yerini dolduracak temiz kan" which means literally "The noble blood which will take the place of the discharged(boşalmak) poisoned blood of the Turk"

http://www.seslisozluk.com/?word=bo%FEalmak Please login to listen pronunciation. Register now if you do not have an account. 1. empty. discharge. ejaculate. cum. cream. exhaust. drain away. drain off. teem. 2. come. ejaculate. empty. to be emptied. to be discharged. to uncoil. to become free. to become vacant. to get sth off one's chest. to ejaculate. to come off. to come.