Talk:Reptile

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Conservation section

While this is an article on a broad topic that has been around for a long time, there should probably be a section on "Conservation of reptiles". A few sentences from the Turtle#conservation status section could be a starter, while there are plenty of sources for organizations that focus on reptile conservation. Rauisuchian (talk) 07:56, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OK; intro paragraph 2

Can someone please explain to me the difference between those two definitions? Because as far as I can tell, they're the same. Serendi ^podous 03:19, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that one is a node-based definition (first common ancestor of A and B) and the other a stem-based definition (first ancestor that is not ancestor of C). They define the same living groups but may cover different fossil groups. There might be early diverging fossil reptiles that are covered by the latter (not mammals) but not the former. — Jts1882 | talk 08:58, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Should we make that clear then? Also, shouldn't we make some kind of statement as to why this article, despite the alternative definitions, still goes by the Linnean definition? Serendi ^podous 05:36, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is this article about the clade Reptilia, or about the paraphyletic group "Reptiles"?

The article begins "Reptiles are tetrapod animals in the class or clade Reptilia". (my emphasis)

Well, if so, the article is about "Reptilia", not "Reptiles", which as popularly understood does not include birds.

The article includes a full taxonomy section and a taxobox, which says that the topic being covered is the Class Reptilia, and a phylogeny section, which says that the topic is the Clade Reptilia – which fortunately accords closely with the Class. What it does not accord with is the traditional, popular group "Reptiles", which is distinguished in people's minds from Fish, Amphibians, Birds, and Mammals.

The article's lead however also includes the paragraph (my emphasis in boldface):

"Modern non-bird reptiles inhabit all the continents except Antarctica. Several living subgroups are recognized: Testudines (turtles and tortoises), 361 species;[4][5] Rhynchocephalia (the tuatara from New Zealand), 1 species;[4][6] Squamata (lizards, snakes, and worm lizards), about 11,052 species;[4][5] and Crocodilia (crocodiles, gharials, caimans, and alligators), 27 species.[4][7]"

That seems to imply that the article is about "Reptiles, excluding birds", as it carefully details how many reptile species there are, omitting the thousands of bird species. That accords with the body of the article, which does not cover bird biology or bird relations with humans. Thus both the lead (though it contradicts itself) and the article body seem to be about the popular "Reptiles", not the clade "Reptilia".

Something is very wrong here.

The logical options are

1) to write about the Class/Clade, and to rename the article "Reptilia", or

2) to accept the Common Name and to write about the paraphyletic "Reptiles", excluding Birds. This would mean rewriting the lead and removing the cladistics, and cutting the taxobox, taxonomy, and phylogeny which apply to the Class/Clade, not the paraphyletic group.

I guess another option (not sure if it's available) would be

3) to find a way of justifying the first sentence of the lead (quoted above), which effectively redefines "Reptiles" as "Reptilia", contrary to centuries of Common Name usage. The section Reptiles#Phylogenetics and modern definition however fails to do this; at the moment, the first sentence of the lead is therefore WP:OR – an uncited editorial opinion.

I'd say that (2) was a bit drastic, and we'd miss having proper coverage of Reptilia. We can't just say WP:COMMONNAME as that gives an inconsistent answer in this case. (3) would be attractive if possible, but common usage is persistent; people other than evolutionary biologists (and small boys in the museum's Dino gallery) do not think of birds as reptiles. If neither of those work, then (1) is what we have left, Dr. Watson, and we must rename the article to "Reptilia". Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:43, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Serendipodous - maybe you have thoughts on this. CC.