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May 23

The color blue and its association with law enforcement/police

What does the color blue have to do with the police? Is the word "blue" a metonym for police and other law enforcement agencies due to the fact some police departments have uniforms that are light blue or navy blue for their officers? I noticed that the term is used in slogans by supporters of the police like many conservatives and right-wingers in the United States such as "back the blue" and "blue lives matter" which sounds like a figure of speech because it can also mean to me like supporting the Democratic Party due to its official color being blue or shopping at IKEA due to its trademark blue and yellow buildings and logo. Are the Thin Blue Line (like the black and gray U.S. flag with a blue stripe in its center) symbols trademarked by any entity worldwide? 47.145.112.144 (talk) 10:14, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the United States, a blue uniform color is often associated with police, a brown uniform color with state troopers (and park rangers), and a green uniform color with soldiers -- though I'm sure there are many local variations and changes over time in the colors of such uniforms... It has very little to do with the red=GOP / blue=Democratic system. The phrase "Thin blue line" long predates the political party color associations... AnonMoos (talk) 11:44, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, "the boys in blue" was a reference to police officers many decades before "red states and blue states". The blue = Democrat symbolism only really dates back to 2000.--Khajidha (talk) 13:26, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In the UK, peelers haven't worn blue since what, the 50s-60s? (cf. The Blue Lamp, Dixon of Dock Green, etc.) Now they are very much the men in black. Hence the pejorative "blacks" being applied them by Republicans and their ilk. ——Serial 13:47, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
An early "boy in blue", London in the 1850s.
For workwear in some forces, yes, although their formal uniform, known as No.1 dress is a very dark shade of blue known as "midnight blue", like this. The original use of blue stems from the first London police:-
In 1829 the first modern police force, the London Metropolitan Police, developed the first standard police apparel. These first police officers, the famous "Bobbies" of London, were issued a dark blue, paramilitary-style uniform. The color blue was chosen to distinguish the police from the British military who wore red and white uniforms at the time. The first official police force in the United States was established in the city of New York in 1845. Based on the London police, the New York City Police Department adopted the dark blue uniform in 1853. Other cities – such as Philadelphia, Boston, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Buffalo and Detroit – quickly followed suit by establishing police departments based on the London model, including the adoption of the dark blue, paramilitary-style uniform.
The psychological influence of the police uniform. See also Police uniforms and equipment in the United Kingdom#Uniform history. Alansplodge (talk) 16:30, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, the Police Service of Northern Ireland wear dark green uniforms, so it isn't a universal truth. Alansplodge (talk) 16:45, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also the term "thin blue line" is a paraphrase of the original Thin Red Line formed by the Sutherland Highlanders to repulse an entire Russian cavalry division at the Battle of Balaclava in 1854. Alansplodge (talk) 16:56, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
TL;DR the OP makes no reference to dress uniform, and in practicality, the RUC wore black. FTFY. ——Serial 17:15, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Pre-1970s RUC uniforms retained a dark green called rifle green, which was often mistaken as black. A lighter shade of green was introduced following the Hunt reforms of the early 1970s, although Hunt recommended that British blue should be introduced. The Patten report, however, recommended the retention of the green uniform". See Police Service of Northern Ireland#Uniform. The Met Police everyday jacket and trousers are still blue like this, although I agree some forces do have black. Alansplodge (talk) 18:34, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Blue is not only associated with the police in the UK and US. In Sweden "Uncle Blue" (farbror blå) is slang for the police, probably due to the colour of their uniforms. Sjö (talk) 17:03, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Swedish police uniforms were first introduced in 1839, [1] but whether or not that was influenced by the London police I don't know. This article says that the model of the French National Gendarmerie was widely followed in Continental Europe, who like the rest of the French Army, also wore blue coats. Alansplodge (talk) 18:16, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Before the Metropolitan Police the Bow Street Runners also wore a uniform that included a Blue tailcoat. MilborneOne (talk) 17:52, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In Germany, the various police forces have abandoned their green uniforms for blue "since 2005", according to Landespolizei#Appearance. Alansplodge (talk) 19:45, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Which, if i recall correctly, had to do with making police more uniform across the EU with a single baseline colour for police. Not sure if that ever became binding or just prefered, like passport colour for example (could be any colour but there is a prefered EU wide colour scheme). Anyway, because blue was used by a majority of countries already, and France/Italy in particular wanted to hold on to the colour, it was decided to be blue. For some reason, the German language Wiki article about domestic police uniforms mentions that the UK advocated for some sort of reddish orange and not blue in those talks (that paragraph has no reference though). I assume they would not have looked like binmen in the end though lol.91.96.27.231 (talk) 16:54, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Berlin's Finest Go Blue. I couldn't find anything about the orange uniform proposal; good God, can you imagine the fuss? As it was, the loss of the British blue passport seems to have been a major issue in the Brexit referendum. [2] Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if the association with blue may also be related to the flashing warning lights to be found on top of police cars, turned on when the car wants to drive somewhere fast to request priority from other people on the road. I presume that these lights are flashing blue (or sometimes blue or red) because that's the easiest way to clearly distinguish them from the more common white, yellow, red and green lights found on the roads. Police cars aren't the only cars that have such lights, but they appear to be the most common users. – b_jonas 15:08, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May 24

documents that discuss the constitutional debate over slavery

In Frederick Douglass's third autobiography, in chapter 7 of part 2, he mentions that He at one point believed that the Consitution was proslavery (the Garrisonian view), but he later changed his mind. What are some documents from the 1840s and 50s that discuss this debate on whether the constitution was pro or anti slavery? Rydrrrr4 (talk) 03:34, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The U.S. Constitution left slavery in place where it was, and allowed for the passage of a fugitive-slave law to protect it, but on the other hand, it conspicuously avoided using the word "slave" (as many in the 19th century pointed out) and allowed Congress to forbid the importation of slaves from outside the U.S. after 1808 (which it did). Many people seem to have strange ideas about the meaning of the infamous 3/5ths clause, but its actual main purpose was to prevent slave states from having disproportionate political power.
Many 1840s documents on the subject are quoted in Chapter 7 of "Means and Ends in American Abolitionism: Garrison and His Critics on Strategy and Tactics 1834-1850" by Aileen S. Kraditor. AnonMoos (talk) 04:42, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've heard it argued that 3/5ths clause allowed slave states having disproportionate political power. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:29, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Each state's number of representatives in the House is/was based on the overall total population of that state (as revealed by decennial censuses), regardless of citizenship, voting ability, or whatever. It included slaves in the 19th century, and includes illegal immigrants and homeless people today. (The only exemption was "Indians not taxed" in the years before 1924, which effectively meant enclaves free from most direct state government control.) In that context, 3/5 was a selective discount on the criterion of the indiscriminate total population of each state, which was otherwise used... If you're against slavery, then you should logically wish that the discount factor should be as small as possible (2/5 or 1/5 or one one-thousandth etc), but some people tell a story according to which you should wish that the number was larger than it actually was (those people are misinformed). AnonMoos (talk) 19:50, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:16, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Last independent Jewish realm before Israel's independence

Was Hasmonean Kingdom of Judea the last independent sovereign Jewish realm before the proclamation of Israel in 1948 or there were others after that kingdom (excluding Judean provisional government (66-68) which was reportedly unrecognized)? Thanks. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 09:13, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

First off, the word "unrecognized" is more relevant to Westphalian diplomacy than ancient times. There was a whole series of Jewish rebellions against Rome (not only in Judea), down to about 135 A.D. The Royal family of the kingdom of Adiabene also converted to Judaism. Around 500 AD there was Mar-Zutra II, then one last fling of the Jewish revolt against Heraclius... AnonMoos (talk) 09:53, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Until well past the Middle Ages, the modern notions of statehood aren't really well-established; if we take the simplest definition of a settled people with autonomous control over a piece of land, then there are several good contenders for post-Roman Jewish states. The Mountain Jews (also, confusingly the same as the "Valley Jews") of Dagestan were pretty much left alone and autonomous until the area was annexed by Russia in the 19th century. Similarly, the Brutakhi may have been an independent Jewish state in the Volga region, they are possibly related to the Jewish Khazars, which are a likely Jewish state, see for example List of Khazar rulers. The Jewishness of the Khazars is not without controversy, and the record is spotty, but that's probably the most famous historical state of Jews post-diaspora. --Jayron32 11:22, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
With every reservation about the use of terms like 'sovereign' (and for that matter 'realm'), the Karaite stronghold of Chufut-Kale in Crimea at times had certain characteristics of autonomy. --T*U (talk) 07:13, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Future of SMB games

Forty years ago, Donkey Kong came out, and Mario was introduced.

Then, 2 years later came Mario Bros. It developed Mario into a character with his own series.

After that came the platforming games; they are:

  • Super Mario Bros. started the platforming part of Mario's games. It introduced all basic properties of Mario's platforming games.
  • Super Mario Bros. 2 was a similar game only with great difficulty and new features like the poison mushroom. (It was released only in Japan during the NES era. For us American players Nintendo lied about what game is SMB2 by releasing Doki Doki Mario and pretending it is SMB2.)
  • Super Mario Bros. 3 got new looks for many things, and introduced more new features such as the Raccoon leaf and airships.

Now people are saying that there won't be any more Mario platformers. This was a big worry at the start of April; please do the appropriate Google search to find details. Georgia guy (talk) 16:36, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I know almost nothing about this stuff, but I remember playing Mario's Cement Factory. You missed it in your list, Georgia guy --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 20:51, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Royal Broadcasts 1935

Hello all. I've recently come into possession of a trove of old documents, some of which I'll likely reach out to this group to help me place/understand. Today, I'm hoping for some help tracking down info about a small pamphlet titled The Royal Broadcasts, which is a reference to the Royal Christmas Message. This booklet is about 15 cm x 9 cm on heavy paper stock, printed in purple ink and bound with a simple purple ribbon knot. There are notes from George, Mary, and Edward. Although it was apparently broadcast Christmas afternoon from Sandringham, this booklet was published later - the note from George is titled "King George's Last Message to the Citizens of his Empire" as he had died 20 Jan, 1936. And Ed's note is apparently from later still as he speaks of now being King.
I've searched online and can't find anything that looks at all like this little booklet and I'm hopeful someone could shed some light on it, such as when exactly it was made - and by whom. It's quite simple looking and there is no publisher information on it at all. Matt Deres (talk) 17:42, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pics posted here. Matt Deres (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Matt Deres: I've not been able to find anything to help. It struck me it has the look of a privately printed item, perhaps produced as a souvenir or keepsake to be given to a loyal retainer? If you know anything about the origin of your trove it may give a clew. "I've recently come into possession of a trove of old documents" is the sort of thing I'd love to be in a position to say. DuncanHill (talk) 00:07, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds somehow Lovecraftian. --Trovatore (talk) 02:10, 26 May 2021 (UTC) [reply]
@DuncanHill: It's not nearly as cool as some Lovecraftian horde of forbidden knowledge, but my daughter and I have found it a fun distraction in this locked down times. Back in the 1940s and 50s, my mom and her family lived in a rented house in London, Ontario. The landlady was a Miss Lucy McNeill. After she died in 1953, my grandfather somehow got possession of her correspondence. I don't know why, but it may just have been that they were both pack rats. There seems to be two components to the collection: stuff from around 1890-1950 consisting mostly of post cards and Christmas cards to Miss McNeill directly. Rather annoyingly, there's no longer correspondence; she only saved the stuff with pictures, not the stuff with text, so we only get snippets. My daughter has started building a database of what's there, trying to reconstitute the family tree and so on. If we can figure that stuff out, we'll start looking for living descendants. The other stuff is very much older, from about 1820-1850. It's longer texts, but very difficult to read. A bundle of papers detailing a river dredging exercise and sale of equipment (hmm, maybe that is a bit Lovecraftian sounding!) . There are also letters from that period, with remnants of the wax seals still on many of them, but we haven't really gotten into those yet, in part because the penmanship is just so exaggerated and difficult to read. That's a part they tend to leave out of historical documentaries. I assume there's some connection between the 1820-1850 stuff and the 1890-1950 stuff, but there's no guarantee of that. There was also some of my family's stuff mixed in there, which I've been able to separate out (food rationing cards from the 1940s, a payment agreement for when my grandfather bought his first "radio receiver", and so on). I'm assuming that the Royal Broadcasts booklet was Miss McNeill's, but it may well have been my grandfather's. He was born in England, but would have been in Canada for decades by that point, though. There's no hint yet that Lucy ever traveled to England. We only got this stuff last week, so we've only scratched the surface in many ways. There will likely be multiple related questions on the refdesks (like the vaccine one on Sci) as we try to piece together things. A fun jigsaw puzzle! Matt Deres (talk) 13:31, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Royal Broadcasts were aired live in Canada by the Canadian Radio Broadcasting Commission since 1932, [3] so there need not be a direct connection with the UK. Alansplodge (talk) 23:25, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May 25

Did Muslims preserve other Abrahamic texts?

I feel like I read somewhere that Muslims are recommended to preserve other Abrahamic texts like the Torah and the Bible, even though they consider these only partially true and completely optional for reading. I can't think of any particular examples of these, though the oldest surviving Bible in Arabic might be one. --(((Romanophile))) N (contributions) 06:03, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Torah is just a name for the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, the contents of which are basically the same as that of the Christian Old Testament. It is not immediately clear how to interpret the term "Abrahamic text". If this means "a text that is holy to some Abrahamic religion", then the Qur'an also qualifies. Other than the Bible and the Qur'an, which believers hold to be Gods revelation, perhaps the only other holy "Abrahamic" text in a wide sense is the Book of Mormon, which has no holy status for Jews, Muslims and most Christians.  --Lambiam 10:48, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The article People of the Book may be useful here. --Jayron32 11:18, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Both these sources state that Bible translations in Arabic were translated by Jewish scholars "for scholarly interpretations or commentary" or by Arabic-speaking Christians, mostly dating from the 16th century. The second source speculates that there may have been an Arabic text of the Bible which predated the Qur'an. See also Bible translations into Arabic which records some surviving early manuscripts, but no suggestion that they were made by Muslims. Alansplodge (talk) 17:20, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Gospel of Barnabas is considered by some Muslims to preserve a more authentic account of Jesus' life and teachings than the New Testament, though it considered much more recent by scholars (post-medieval). There are also parallels between the Quran and certain apocryphal works, such as the Syriac Infancy Gospel. - Lindert (talk) 18:04, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If you're asking whether Muslims preserved as a whole any pre-632-A.D. Jewish or Christian texts (in the same way that Christians preserved ancient Jewish texts that have been lost in Judaism, such as the book of Maccabees etc), then the short answer is "no", as far as I'm aware. Muslims have preserved various fragments of folklore, apocrypha, and midrash... AnonMoos (talk) 18:50, 25 May 2021 (UTC) 18:48, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

follow-up to house design in San Francisco

I suddenly remembered something. There's a house on Lake Street after Park Presidio Boulevard. It has a Mission Revival architecture on the front façade. Does that seem a little more helpful? What can anyone tell me about that house?142.255.72.126 (talk) 10:35, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean 1400 Lake Street at Lake & 15th? Very little information about the house can be found, other than its size.[4][5] If this is not it, then, by "after", do you mean when traveling towards the Ocean (to the east)? And do you know if the house is on the north or south side of the street, whether it is on a street corner, and approximately how many blocks this is from Park Presidio? This may help to identify the particular building.  --Lambiam 11:14, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, traveling towards the Ocean (to the west). It's on the south side of Lake Street. But it's not on a street corner. It's approximately two or three blocks from Park Presidio Boulevard. There's a curve in the middle of the front façade. I hope those are more helpful.2603:7000:8106:C149:FDC5:1FFC:E670:AF90 (talk) 23:32, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
1400 Lake street was built in 1925. Across the street is 1401, a more modest house, but perhaps more authentic stylewise, built in 1916. --T*U (talk) 11:20, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Based on the additional details south side of Lake Street, not on a street corner, approximately two or three blocks from Park Presidio Boulevard, curve in the middle of the front façade, it looks as if you might think of 1533 Lake Street, built in 1907. --T*U (talk) 11:56, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's the wrong house. The curve is a a semi-circle in Mission Revival architecture at the top. I hope this is more helpful2603:7000:8106:C149:21E7:50E1:1F33:8177 (talk) 07:06, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May 26

Russia in the Central African Republic Civil War and African as a whole

Can anyone give me some insight into what the incentive is for Russia is to be involved in the CAR civil war? Is it simply wanting the CAR to be indebted and influenced by Russia, or is it deeper than that? I know China and France's influence in contemporary Africa is vast, but is Russia's present elsewhere? Aza24 (talk) 07:08, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Soviet Union used to use Cuban proxies in Africa, as in Angola -- see Cuban intervention in Angola, Cuban military internationalism. In the "horn" region of East Africa, if the United States was allied with one of Ethiopia or Somalia, then the Soviet Union was inevitably allied with the other (which did not contribute to solving any problems). I don't know much about the situation in the CAR today, but it used to be very solidly in the French sphere, so if Putin thinks he could loosen the connection with France, that might give him an incentive to commit mischief... AnonMoos (talk) 08:50, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Russia’s Strategy in the Central African Republic from the Royal United Services Institute says that Russia has three objectives:
1. To replace France as the dominant influence, as AnonMoos says above.
2. To challenge UN sanctions for its own commercial gain.
3. To use the CAR as "a springboard for expanded influence in Central Africa".
Alansplodge (talk) 10:27, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Determinism and predictability

I have seen this argument in a number of places ([6], [7]). It goes like this:

If determinism is true, then a person's actions are predictable.
A perfect predictor could, in theory, predict a person's actions perfectly if determinism is true.
Consider a prediction by a perfect predictor. For example, the machine might predict that a person will wake up at 6:00 am tomorrow morning. It seems that the person will inevitably wake up at 6:00 am, assuming that the predictor really is perfect and the person has no knowledge of the prediction.
However, what happens if the person knows of the prediction? The person could easily make a different choice, and this seems to break the determinism.
I have seen make the argument made that the predictor simply is not perfect (because it could not predict the effect of its prediction on the person's behavior. However, it seems that the predictor could, in theory, be perfect all the times when the person does not know about the predictions. Does this mean that the problem lies in the idea of a "perfect predictor" (instead of determinism)?
I really cannot make sense of this, as it is hard as can be for me to imagine how determinism could not be true.173.188.199.123 (talk) 23:21, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are LOTS of perspectives on this. What you're asking about is questions of philosophy, which is mainly understood as a field that tries to establish how we should think about or conceptualize various fields of human activity, but it is not scientific endeavor with experimentation and definitive results. It's a means of using reason and rationality to try to organize your thinking about a subject rather than a way to test an idea or a concept. If science is about learning what the world around us is like, philosophy is more how should we think about the world around us, and there really aren't definitive "right" or "wrong" ideas in the same way. If you want to know more about how various philosophers and schools of thought have handled concepts like free will and determinism, I would start with those two articles, and just follow on links from there. --Jayron32 23:45, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, thanks!173.188.199.123 (talk) 23:49, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This seems to be related to the problem of self-reference, in a sense. It's an interesting thought experiment. One solution is simply that a perfect predictor cannot exist, which is certainly a plausible one (see Chaos theory for one out of many reasons why). Zoozaz1 talk 01:53, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. (It doesn't literally apply here, but I think the problem is analogous). Iapetus (talk) 08:48, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also also Gödel's incompleteness theorems, etc. There are lots of results in 20th century math and physics that are proofs of uncertainty. --Jayron32 11:07, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the recommended method for making a perfect prediction apparatus: (1) Make a perfect copy of the universe; (2) Let it run at twice the speed of the universe it is a copy of; (3) Inspect the results and report them back to our universe. Needless to say, the copy needs to reside outside the existing universe, otherwise the normal universe is disrupted and any predictions need to be based on the now disrupted universe, which means we need to modify the copy, and so on ad infinitum.  --Lambiam 08:56, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The thing is, because of quantum uncertainty, even if you could do that, you wouldn't end up with the same universe. It's baked into the physics. The clockwork universe is a dead concept. That doesn't mean it isn't deterministic, just that it is not predictable or reproduceable. --Jayron32 16:48, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Re self-reference: A completely deterministic world could also be seen as a formal system, powerful enough for Gödel's incompleteness theorems to take effect. --T*U (talk) 09:14, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of amazing answers here. Thank you all so much!173.188.199.123 (talk) 17:38, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There has been a lot of discussion of Newcomb's paradox... -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:17, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May 27

Eliza Jane White aka Ida L. White Chancery case

Eliza Jane White, who published as Ida L. White was the subject of a chancery case regarding the will of her husband George White (died 1876) which reportedly lasted for eleven years, and has been likened to Jarndyce and Jarndyce in its effect on his estate. The case was possibly brought by his executor, the Anglican Priest John Walton Murray, and/ or the White's daughter Violet Victoria. Eliza's professed atheism seems to have been a factor.

Remarkably, details of this intriguing case are proving very hard to find. Can anyone help?

@Smirkybec, Andrew Gray, and Tagishsimon:, who have all been working on this. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:44, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No good answers yet, so I’ll just pop up my potential leads, in case spending money or making in-person trip to archives is possible. Apologies if you've already considered these.
  1. London Gazette often lists chancery cases. In the prison memoir that is already a source in Ida’s article, she says the case began while she was in prison, which would give a date range 1888-1899. Looking at how other chancery cases are listed in the Gazette it’s going to be formatted something like Surname vs. Surname plus details, so “George White” should be the best search string since it would come up in the details. There are 300-odd hits.
  2. Paid archives that might list chancery cases the Times, or the Law reports database.
  3. Per How to look for records of Chancery cases after 1875 fuller records can be obtained by going to the National Archives in Kew in person. The Nat Archives also have individual prisoner files from Holloway. My understanding is that neither of these are searchable online. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 21:34, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I've tried the Gazette, and the Times, with variety of name combinations, to no effect. A friend has tried the Lexis and Westlaw legal databases, again with no luck, but notes that "'George White' is the name of a barrister who was active during the second half of the nineteenth century so you get loads of results for cases where he's mentioned". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:15, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ohhh, that's hard. George White is tough enough to search as it is.70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:14, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the case is listed under Violet Victoria's married name, which we don't yet know? Her two siblings (also female) may also have been parties. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:32, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe one daughter was called Agnes Fleming? But the date seems so early. Maybe a stepdaughter? On 24 March 1857 William[Fleming married Agnes Matilda White, daughter of George White, editor of The Ballymena Observer and Registrar of Marriages for Ballymena and district.] 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:35, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, can’t be her. Died 1862 October 18, at the residence of her father, Agnes Matilda relict of the late Mr. William Fleming and daughter of George White Esq. Ballymena, aged 24 years. A sad story there. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:42, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I believe George was significantly older than Eliza, and she was his second wife - he was a widower on their marriage certificate in 1862. His age is unclear, but I would guess born sometime between 1805 and 1820. If the dates in her later prison record are correct, she was probably born about 1844 and so married about 18.
Agnes Matilda was thus definitely a stepdaughter, and there was at least one more surviving as of 1876 - four daughters were named in the report of George's funeral, "Emma Adelina" plus Eliza's three daughters. Andrew Gray (talk) 17:06, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think I may have found out a hint why there was such a messy legal case, though: his will (available from PRONI) names... three daughters, not four. "Violet Victoria White, Agnes Matilda Catherine Amelia White, and Ethelwine Alberta Douglas White". His widow and Murray are appointed trustees, and Murray is named as guardian to the children. Despite being dated 1876. One wonders about poor Pansy. Andrew Gray (talk)
One does indeed. I don't suppose Pansy's real name could be Agnes Matilda and she was named after her deceased half sister? If he had updated the will to add Violet and Ethelwyn, you would think he would have removed the earlier Agnes?70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:53, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're right - I had got confused and thought that was Emma (the one still living in 1876). "Agnes Matilda Catherine Amelia White", married 3 September 1900, aged 33, daughter of George White, editor. Witnesses were Violet Victoria Davies Nettell and her husband Maurice Davies Nettell. That seems very likely to be Pansy. Andrew Gray (talk) 22:44, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Chancery Division of the High Court handles contentious probate. There used to be a "Probate, Divorce and Admiralty" Division. This website [8] has contact details for an office providing "copies of wills and grants issued since 1858". George White was domiciled in Ulster and prior to the Judicature Act 1873 Ireland had its own courts of equity and common law [9], [10] and adjacent serial numbers. By 1890 the Vice-Chancellor was hearing cases in the Chancery Division between parties resident in Belfast and Ballymena. It appears from [11] that cases are heard locally. The person who brought the case may have been resident in Ireland and Eliza lived in London. 84.9.101.54 (talk) 13:53, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have drawn a complete blank on tracing the chancery case in the British Newspaper Archive (both English and Irish titles). It is unlikely to have been in Violet's married name (the reference in 1893 strongly suggests it was over by then, and she did not marry until 1894). Ethelwyn was also unmarried in 1894; I have not been able to trace the third daughter.
However, I dug into it a bit last night and between newspaper references and the dates on the poems have managed to piece together a timeline - prison sections in bold.
  • 1884 - Ida was living in London by this point, having moved from Ballymena via Belfast at some point after 1879
  • 1886, December - poem dated from Holloway Prison at Christmas
  • 1887, May - living in Fulham. White gets in a feud with her tenant, the "Countess de la Torre", that ends up in Hammersmith police court in May. She is then sent to the Old Bailey on (seperate) charges of libelling the Countess; found guilty but not clear what sentence was given. Described as a Socialist in newspaper reports.
  • 1887, August - poem dated from Holloway Prison
  • 1887, October - back living in Fulham and in court as a witness when some clothes are stolen from her
  • 1888, January - letter written from Holloway Prison
  • 1888, March - poem dated from Charing Cross Hospital
  • 1888, July - letter written from Paris; remains there until at least Feb 1889.
  • 1889, April - in Rome
  • 1889, September - in London, unknown address (writes the preface to Three Banquets)
  • 1890 - second volume of poems published
  • 1892 - attended Socialist meetings in Hull & Yarmouth
  • 1893, May - John Walton Murray dies.
  • 1893, July - made the "attack" on the Czarevich and refers to lawsuit as having lasted eleven years
  • 1894 - Violet Victoria White is married in London; Ida is noticeably not mentioned as one of the attendees.
  • 1896 - advertises French lessons in Belfast (living back at The Tryst, Lyle Hill; compare "Flowers from Lyle")
  • 1897 - donation to an anarchist fund
  • 1899 - lecturing at the Freethought Society, London
  • 1901 - last volume of poems published
So this seems to confirm three distinct periods of imprisonment, with confirmation of being out of prison between them, and at least one of them being for debt. I have so far only been able to identify one in the prisoner records on Ancestry, the 1887 imprisonment, which seems to be connected with the libel suit. The last period of imprisonment generally fits with the details given in the intro to Three Banquets - Charing Cross hospital and then Paris afterwards, etc. The "twenty years" reference would probably match with the first instance of imprisonment - Violet was born mid-1865.
The "eleven years" thus suggests the case had begun in 1882, if not earlier. My suspicion is that the court case was already ticking along and Violet later came in as a party in her own right, perhaps because she had just turned 21 and was thus able to do so? One of the poems strongly suggests they were already estranged by the time Violet was 19, in 1884. Andrew Gray (talk) 17:06, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Amazing work! 70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:49, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And yet in the preface to the 1901 volume (dated September 1900), she writes at length about spending time with "Violet's little son", Lally. One of the poems in the volume is entitled "Lally, my Daughter Violet's Son". Perhaps there was a rapprochement? The final page of that work also refers - unfortunately somewhat obliquely - to "The Dean's Crime", and seems to promise a (then) forthcoming work of autobiographical nature, and that "There shall be the unveiling of the Violet Victoria and the Scotland Yard detective liaison and the proper staging of a family of parvenus involved...". And yes, great work indeed, Andrew. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:28, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've found him, as well: "Alan Barrie Davies Nettell", born late 1894. So maybe there was indeed a reconciliation sometime in the 1890s. It does look like she straightened her life out a bit after the third term in prison! Andrew Gray (talk) 22:58, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Now on Wikidata as Alan Barrie Davies Nettell (Q107020255) and Violet Victoria White (Q107020237). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:46, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Was John Walton Murray the same John Walton Murray who was Dean of Connor? DuncanHill (talk) 22:06, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am pretty confident he was. He is described as "the Dean" by Ida in her poems, and in the probate records he is clearly a clergyman. I couldn't find any obvious indication of there being two of them around. Andrew Gray (talk) 22:45, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Modern pre-Islamic worshipping

Are there any contemporary Neopagan groups centered around pre-Islamic beliefs (Hubal, etc), similar to modern pre-Christian worshippers? 212.180.235.46 (talk) 13:23, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, Christianity itself is a pre-Islamic faith that has persisted to modern times, as is Judaism, Zoroastrianism, etc. all of which would have been practiced in what later became the "Islamic World" for centuries before Muhammad was born. If you're looking for things like Ancient Semitic religions and various forms of Arabian polytheism, then no, I am not aware of any such religions. There are more modern religions that developed in Muslim-majority countries like Bahá'í Faith, which is to Islam roughly what Unitarian Universalism is to Christianity. However, Bahá'í is not a neopagan religion like Wicca or anything like that. I don't know of any tradition of "neo-Arabian-polytheism" or anything like that, and those faiths died out a millennium ago as active religions. --Jayron32 16:40, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Neopagans revive historical beliefs that died out a long time ago. I think of such practices as not very different from cosplay; put on a druid costume and pretend you're Getafix. In predominantly Islamic cultures, attempts at neopagan revivals may expect to be met with a certain level of hostility.  --Lambiam
Agreed: see Modern Paganism#Historicity and fakelore. Alansplodge (talk) 11:14, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think there is a spectrum there; there are certainly some modern pagans who have belief in earnest no different than those who practice other religious traditions. The references to fakelore and cosplay implies a certain "putting on of airs" or lack or earnestness that I don't think applies universally. --Jayron32 12:34, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As a (desultorily) practicing Wiccan myself, I can assure you that, while a certain amount of fun is involved (and why not?), most of us neopagans are well aware that our various strands are not straight re-creations of ancient beliefs (whose details are generally poorly known) that we hold literally, but rather a use of them as a framework within which philosophical approaches to life are actively experimented with and evolved, and which most of us take very seriously. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.121.163.176 (talk) 20:31, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It would probably technically fall under Semitic neopaganism, but that article doesn't include anything Arab (except possibly the last footnote)... AnonMoos (talk) 23:09, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What determines the proportions of stocks?

What determines whether a company's stock can be $100 but in 1 million pieces, or $50 but at 2 million pieces? Regardless of the rate it goes up or down. For specifically the NYSE. 67.165.185.178 (talk) 15:28, 27 May 2021 (UTC).[reply]

It's a choice. The company can do a stock split or reverse stock split to keep the share price at a convenient level. These mechanisms do exactly what you mentioned, splitting the same total market capitalization into a different number of shares outstanding. An initial public offering also sells the right number of shares to result in a reasonable share price. (There are other mechanisms like share repurchase and stock dividends, which can also help control the share price.) Then the question is, what range of share prices do people find convenient? The share prices for components of the S&P 100 go from $10 to $2000, and most are around $50 to $250 [12]. --Amble (talk) 16:08, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Share price is largely determined by corporate governance, and depends on why, and for what purpose, a company wants to control its own stocks. If there is a desire to maintain a high volume of active trading, a company is incentivized to produce a lot of low-value shares. If a company is interested in maintaining control of the shares in the hands of a small number of shareholders, then it maintains a small number of high-value shares that are harder to move on the open market. Famously, Berkshire Hathaway A Class stock is maintained at stupidly high prices ($400,000 per share, at most recent estimates) for the very reason that it allows continuity of governance since shares don't get traded quickly, and it is basically impossible for someone to quietly acquire a controlling interest. --Jayron32 16:46, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, the price of that stock recently caused a minor problem on the NASDAQ, because some part of their software represented prices in hundredths of a cent US, and couldn't handle a price per share greater than 232−1 of those units, in other words $429,496.7295 per share; and when it reached that level, they had to quickly fix the software. --184.145.50.201 (talk) 20:06, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Damn you, Berkshire Hathaway. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:04, 27 May 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Newspapers in Japan

This vague question might incite an equally vague answer, but why are newspapers so widely read in Japan? I look at List of newspapers by circulation, and see China and India dominating the list (which makes sense, for population reasons) but also Japan—why? There are certainly more populous countries... any thoughts or insights would be appreciated. Aza24 (talk) 20:04, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oshigami. Nanonic (talk) 20:18, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May 28

Roman Catholics entering the churches of other denominations.

Our article on St Patrick's Cathedral, Dublin mentions the state funeral of Douglas Hyde, saying "At President Hyde's funeral, the whole of the Irish government and opposition contingent, but for Childers and Noel Browne, stayed in the foyer of the church. This was because, at the time of the funeral, the Holy See forbade Roman Catholics from entering the churches of other Christian traditions". The Hyde article says "contemporary rules of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland prohibited Roman Catholics from attending services in non-Catholic churches". So my questions are 1) was the prohibition on entering churches, or only on attending services in them, 2) was this for all Roman Catholics or was it only in Ireland, and 3) when did this prohibition end? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 03:22, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

DuncanHill, (1) the prohibition was on attending or taking active part in worship; (2) it was universal Canon Law for all Catholics; (3) it ended with the 1983 abrogation of the 1917 Code. This is decidedly not a reliable source, but it explains what was going on then. Elizium23 (talk) 04:04, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Can you quote chapter and verse of the clause in the 1917 Code?  --Lambiam 08:24, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We have an article on 1917 Code of Canon Law and 1983 Code of Canon Law. Here is a printing of the code from 1918. It's in Latin, so if you can read Latin, you can probably find it. --Jayron32 12:31, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's Canon 1258, beginning on page 360 of the Google Book linked by Jayron. Note that section 1 prohibits in any way actively assisting or taking part in non-Catholic services, whereas section 2 says a passive or merely physical presence at non-Catholic services such as funerals and marriages can be tolerated in some cases. So it seems that the Irish folk may have been being a bit overscrupulous. Deor (talk) 16:50, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks @Elizium23:, @Jayron32:, and @Deor:. As usual I cannot see the contents of the Google book. I found a translation which says "1. It is not licit for the faithful by any manner to assist actively or to have a part in the sacred [rites] of non-Catholics. § 2. Passive or merely material presence can be tolerated for the sake of honor or civil office, for grave reason approved by the Bishop in case of doubt, at the funerals, weddings, and similar solemnities of non-Catholics, provided danger of perversion and scandal is absent". Looks like they turned up for Childers in 1974. Presumably the danger of perversion and scandal had declined by then. DuncanHill (talk) 17:12, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Popeye as theological allegory

Anthony Burgess once wrote "I knew a young author in San Francisco who produced a series of novels in which the characters of the Popeye cartoons were turned into figures of theological allegory. He could not sell these to a commercial publisher but he could turn out a thousand or so copies on an IBM machine. These he sold on the San Francisco streets and registered a profit, despite his many remainders. Eventually he died of an overdose of drugs, but that does not invalidate his procedure". Can anyone identify the young author? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 09:52, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Burgess's biographer Andrew Biswell couldn't. In a similar query at the International Anthony Burgess Foundation's facebook page, he writes: "The name is not recorded in the sands of time, alas." ... But who knows? Maybe someone here can find out or even owns a copy! ---Sluzzelin talk 10:17, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The quote is from "The Literature Industry", an article Burgess wrote for The Observer in August 1988, by the way, and can also be found in the collection The Ink Trade: Selected Journalism 1961-1993, edited by Will Carr (Deputy Director at the International Anthony Burgess Foundation), Carcanet Press, 2018, ISBN 978-1-784-10393-4 ---Sluzzelin talk 10:35, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This sounds like Jack Chick or someone who was inspired by or mimicking the work of Jack Chick. See Chick tract, which were religious comics. There were also handmade comics popular in California at the time known ironically as Tijuana bibles, that weren't religious at all, but were pornographic comics featuring popular characters. It wouldn't be too hard to imagine someone, inspired by Chick, creating Tijuana bible-style comics but with a religious bent. --Jayron32 14:03, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds pretty similar to underground comix, but more book-like. --Khajidha (talk) 16:05, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Burgess comes back to the anecdote in You've Had Your Time. There he calls the author a young Californian, calls the works "an interesting but, in publisher's terms, uncommercial trilogy", and says he sold "around four hundred of each volume, but registered an eighty per cent profit". DuncanHill (talk) 16:20, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why wasn't the Hagiwara family allowed to return to their home after the end of WWII?

Japanese Tea Garden (San Francisco)#History: "Following Makoto Hagiwara's death in 1925 his daughter, Takano Hagiwara, and her children became the proprietors and maintainers of the garden. With the onset of World War II in America and rising anti Japanese sentiment, Takano Hagiwara and her family were evicted from the family's home and sent to an internment camp.[1] 120,000 Japanese and Americans of Japanese descent were sent to internment camps during the war. Despite John McLaren's agreement with Hagiwara, the displacement of his family disrupted their stay at a promised century long home and the family was not allowed back or reimbursed after the war ended.[2] In the period of their absence, the garden was renamed "The Oriental Tea Garden," and some structures expressing Japanese sentiment were demolished, including the Hagiwara home, and the original Shinto Shrine. Japanese tea servers were replaced with Chinese women in their traditional dress.[2]"

Your quote answers your question. The Hagiwara home was demolished. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:50, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So "was not allowed" should be changed to "were not able [to return]"? ZFT (talk) 00:49, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, it sounds more complicated than that. The Hagiwara family were caretakers of the garden, not its owners. The city owned the garden and the house. The internment of Japanese-Americans basically terminated the employment of Takano Hagiwara and the end of internment did not result in her being rehired. There may have been lingering anti-Japanese sentiments involved. She may not have been taken back on by the city even if the house had still been standing. --Khajidha (talk) 01:34, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The San Francisco Senior Beat article "From Tea Garden to internment camp to Berkeley degree: Fitness instructor now 80 and still teaching" about Makoto Hagawira's great-granddaughter Tanako doesn't answer the question, but it's all I found regarding where the family lived after being released from internment: "They spent the next five years in Portland Ore. where her father worked as a food buyer for a hotel and she and her mother worked in the family business, a bean cake factory. Always wanting to return to San Francisco, Hagiwara’s grandmother was able to put a down payment on a house in the city’s Richmond district. It was paid for with the proceeds of the sale of artifacts from their Japanese Tea Garden house that a family friend had saved for them."
As for their incarceration, according to another article on Tanako's great-granddaughter ("Japanese American family at heart of beloved Golden Gate Park garden" in the San Francisco Examiner), "her family was relocated from their 17-room home in the garden, first to a camp at Tanforan in San Bruno, and later to Topaz Internment Camps."
Maybe some of this can help find more info. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:00, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May 29

Pardon in Spain???

During the past week in Spain, there has been heavy public political discussion surrounding the controversial idea of the Spanish government of Pedro Sánchez granting pardons to the jailed leaders of the failed Catalan independence bid as could be seen in this El País article. However, the Spain's section in our article on pardon clearly indicates that the right to issue pardons is a privilege of the monarch of Spain. Does Pedro Sánchez's government need the legal and explicit approval of the King to grant pardons and clemencies or not? Could the King legally refuse to approve the pardons which the government plans to grant? StellarHalo (talk) 08:47, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to the 1978 Constitution of Spain;
Article 62
It is incumbent upon the King:
i) to exercise the right to grant pardons in accordance with the law, which may not authorise general pardons... THE SPANISH CONSTITUTION (p. 20/52)
So in principle, he could decline, and hasn't held back in condemning the Catalan separatists. On the other hand, there is already a big question mark over the Spanish royals - see Is Spain’s Royal Family Finished? and Spain’s King Felipe VI struggles to repair tarnished image of royal family, so that might be a constraining factor. Alansplodge (talk) 13:41, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The monarchy is entrenched in the Spanish Constitution and so, I doubt the King is that worried about the current popularity of the royal family. StellarHalo (talk) 01:27, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The constitution can be amended (and has been amended twice). See Constitution_of_Spain#Part_X:_constitutional_amendment). The number of elected members of Congress and Senate willing to abolish the monarchy probably does correlate with how popular it is. Regarding your question, I guess it would be interesting to find out whether the monarch has ever refused to grant a pardon proposed by the government. (Some controversial pardons have been granted, such as those of Alfonso Armada, José Barrionuevo, or Alfredo Sáenz Abad. One pardon was annulled by the Supreme Court: that of the so-called 'kamikaze de Polinyà', a man who recklessly drove 5km in the wrong direction on the AP-7 and killed another person). ---Sluzzelin talk 02:17, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Bulgarian Folklore"

Greetings,

A research paper "The Notion of the "Other" in Bulgaria: The Turks. A Historical Study" by author Vera Mutafchieva available on JSTOR from below given journal @ page 11 onwards JSTOR talks of a Book named "Bulgarian Folklore" Volume 1 2 3 Exactly which book she is referring to? Is it available online?

  • Anthropological Journal on European Cultures Vol. 4, No. 2, Ethnicity Nationalism Geopolitics in the Balkans (II) (1995), pp. 53-74 (22 pages)

Published by: Berghahn Books

Looking for refs for article Draft:Avret Esir Pazarları

  • Is it Bulgarian Folk Songs the same one, could not find English translation link in the article. Or it is there but I could not locate?

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku (talk) 12:07, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I thought maybe Michail Arnaudov's 1934 Essays on Bulgarian Folklore (Очерци по българския фолклор), but I only found it published in two volumes. ---Sluzzelin talk 01:00, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The References section has this item:
Bulgarsko narodno tvorchesto. 1963/1964. Vol 1 & 3. Sofia (Bulgarian Folk Traditions).
It seems plausible to me that this is the same publication as referred to before as "Bulgarian Folklore". The reference is deplorably incomplete. The title is the transliteration of the Bulgarian phrase Българско народно творчество, a better translation of which is "Bulgarian folk culture" or "Bulgarian folk art". (The Bulgarian Wikipedia has an article by that title, which is about the topic, not about the book.) I found this on Google Books, which as a bibliographic record is also laughably incomplete, so it is not possible to make out for sure if this is the same as the entry in the bibliography, but it is obviously the same publication we see here.  --Lambiam 13:20, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Account or books about Lassen eruption

Hello, looking for books or really detailed accounts of the last eruption at Lassen Peak in the 1910s. 69.209.14.47 (talk) 22:27, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May 30

Who is the priest in The House That Jack Built??

I've been doing research on trying to find what kind of person the priest is in The House That Jack Built. I have 2 problems with this character. To see both of these problems, please examine these words:

This is the priest all shaven and shorn
That married the man all tattered and torn
That kissed the maiden all forlorn...

First, if the man kisses the maiden it would make sense that the man is about to marry the maiden. Second, priests are normally male, and the priest and the man would make a gay couple; this is an old story and gay marriage is a modern concept. (Wikipedia itself has an article Priest, but it refers to women of this kind as priestesses, and a Google search on "This is the priestess" reveals only 39 results, none of which talk about this poem.)

Does anyone have any idea on what kind of person the priest actually is?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:23, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Uhm, it might interest you to know that when we say that a priest "marries" a man, or "marries" a man and a woman, that the priest is the formal Church/State witness to the marriage between the man and a woman. This normally goes without saying, given the widespread practice of clerical celibacy. Does that help some? Elizium23 (talk) 00:26, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Correct. In this case the word “married” means he officiated at the wedding ceremony, not that he was one of the people getting married. It is somewhat archaic usage. Blueboar (talk) 00:46, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Blueboar, it is not archaic in the least. It is in current and common usage among men and women who are married by priests. Elizium23 (talk) 00:58, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(after edit conflict Yes, see Wiktionary's entry wikt:marry#Verb, meaning #5. You read it as meaning #1 #3, Georgia guy. In our article's version (This Is the House That Jack Built), it's the judge who marries the man etc. Judges rarely have to be celibate, but the shaven-and-shorn one still didn't enter into a conjugal state with the man all tattered and torn. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:48, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
:) Bookku (talk) 00:52, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The judge must be an American innovation, since judges can't officiate at weddings in England; you need a registrar, an office which I believe post-dates the rhyme by about a century. Alansplodge (talk) 11:59, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone in modern society is familiar with the word marry as having meaning #1. Am I right?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:56, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Correction; it's definition #3 that I read it as (and also the definition that everyone is familiar with these days.) Georgia guy (talk) 01:00, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you're right. Sorry for being careless. Amended. Sluzzelin talk 01:05, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Until you asked this question, I would have thought that everyone was familiar with definition #5 as well. --Khajidha (talk) 12:02, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As for other things we can tell about this priest... given the age of the poem, the fact that he is “shaven and shorn” may indicate that he is Tonsured. He may also be a bit grumpy about being woken up by a rooster. That is about it. Blueboar (talk) 01:17, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I always heard it as the priest. And the illustration in the poem's article corresponds to the illustration in the tonsured article. As to the notion of the priest marrying the man, it's unlikely anyone would have read that into it until recent times. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:07, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
...the English version is very old, as may be inferred from the mention of "the priest all shaven and shorn" (i.e. predating the Reformation in England in the mid-16th century). From Popular Rhymes and Nursery Tales: A Sequel to the Nursery Rhymes of England (1849) p. 9, although our article says that the rhyme first appeared in print in 1755.
BTW, the confusion between getting married by someone and getting married to someone occupied an entire episode of the British sitcom, The Vicar of Dibley, when the eponymous female priest thinks she is being proposed to, but is actually being asked to officiate. Alansplodge (talk) 09:57, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't there a riddle about a man who married both his daughters, still living, yet had never committed incest or bigamy, and had never divorced? DuncanHill (talk) 14:03, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
DuncanHill, can you show me a link to the riddle online?? Georgia guy (talk) 14:28, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Georgia guy: If I could find one I would. I can't even recall the exact wording at the moment. DuncanHill (talk) 14:45, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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