Talk:James Dobson
I moved the following from the article (begin quote):
In The Strong-Willed Child, Dobson compares child rearing with dog rearing. He describes a situation in which Sigmund, the family dog, refuses to leave his resting place, the "furry lid of the toilet seat":
- "I had seen this defiant mood before, and knew there was only one way to deal with it. The only way to make Siggie [the family dog] obey is to threaten him with destruction. Nothing else works. I turned and went to my closet and got a small belt to help me 'reason' with Mr. Freud.
- "What developed next is impossible to describe. That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast. I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt. I am embarrassed by the memory of the entire scene. Inch by inch I moved him toward the family room and his bed. As a final desperate maneuver, Siggie backed into the corner for one last snarling stand. I eventually got him to bed, only because I outweighed him 200 to 12!
- "But this is not a book about the discipline of dogs; there is an important moral to my story that is highly relevant to the world of children. JUST AS SURELY AS A DOG WILL OCCASIONALLY CHALLENGE THE AUTHORITY OF HIS LEADERS, SO WILL A LITTLE CHILD—ONLY MORE SO." (emphasis Dobson)
Anti-spanking groups have criticized such views as highly simplistic and dangerous to children.
(end quote)
I removed it because it has nothing to do with spanking. The point of the story seems to be to point out that children, like dogs, will defy authority. In fact he says that's the point. (It's hardly a point that parents are likely to disagree with) The quote says nothing about how you deal with them, or about spanking. So the comment following it is irrelevant. DJ Clayworth 19:30, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
- Whether parents agree with him is not the point; the point is that this is a good, representative quotation of his views on child rearing, and in terms of NPOV, it is important to note that anti-spanking groups have criticized these views as simplistic. I have therefore restored the quotation.--Eloquence*
What's the source on the "more than 200 million people hear his show"? That number seems extraordinary (note that I scrupulously avoided "frightening"). Meelar 19:00, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Dunno. However, by going to [1] you can see there's more than 3000 places on the radio dial that transmit his radio program in 12 languages in over 95 countries. A more probable source for the number of listeners is listener contact (by email, regular mail, and telephone) with Focus. Those numbers are probably in Focus' private domain. If "more than 200 million people hear his show" that probably would reflect a worldwide figure. Focus is an international organization, after all - just check out the website a bit. And please, Meelar, don't be frightened. (smile) 209.221.222.206 06:52, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC) avnative
Corporal punishment section
Eeg...I have two problems with the "views on corporal punishment and authority" section. First, I disagree with Eloquence: I don't think the current quotes are very representative of Dobson's overall position on corporal punishment; "Project Nospank" quotes a similar set when advocating against corporal punishment: [2]). I think they're a little selective, at least. Other quotes from Dobson:
- "discipline must not be harsh and destructive to the child's spirit"
- "Corporal punishment should be a rather infrequent occurrence."
- "I think it is very important after punishment to embrace the child in love."
- " Corporal punishment is not effective at the junior and senior high school levels, and I do not recommend its application."
- "Anyone who secretly enjoys the administration of corporal punishment should not be the one to implement it."
- "Anyone who has a violent temper that at times becomes unmanageable should not use that approach [corporal punishment]"
- "When, then, should [Toddlers] be subjected to mild discipline? When they openly defy their parents' very clear commands!...Even in these situations, however, severe punishment is unwarranted. A firm rap on the fingers or a few minutes sitting on a chair will usually convey the same message as convincingly. Spankings should be reserved for a child's moments of greatest antagonism, usually occurring after the second, third, or fourth birthdays."
- "Question: You have described two extremes that are both harmful to kids, being too permissive and being too harsh... Answer:... The way to raise healthy children is to find the safety of the middle ground between disciplinary extremes."
— (all found in various linked pages from [3], can't be bothered to list them right now) My second problem is that this part is veering towards being a Wikiquote article; I think one or two quotes are OK, but the entire section? We should work to produce an NPOV narrative both of what Dobson says, and what criticism is levelled against him. — Matt 01:46, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Quotes are important whenever a statement is likely to be controversial. However, I agree that some of the above should be added, at least in paraphrased form. Right now the section would be more appropriately titled "Controversial views on ..", but we should try to make it a representative summary of his point of view, with a brief rebuttal from the other side. However, looking through the website, I see no evidence that these are actually Dobson's words and and not somebody else's - where are they attributed to him?--Eloquence*
- I think quotes can be useful, but I don't think they should drive the text, but rather illustrate it. Surely it's cumbersome and unnecessary to have a three-paragraph direct quote in the text? We should be able to agree on a summary and provide external links for the full text. As to the veracity of the above quotes, I rediscovered most of them today (potentially all, I haven't yet had a chance to look thoroughly) in print in Dr. Dobson Answers Your Questions (1988), ISBN 0842305807. The website attribution isn't obvious, you're right; it does attribute them to him, albeit indirectly e.g. [4] says, "Dr. James Dobson answers related questions about spanking in the Spanking Hot Topic collection.", and that hot topic collection contains the questions and answers. — Matt 14:26, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I believe the quotes in the article do seem a little one-sided, and very selective. I listen to FotF frequently, and I know that the Dr. would never 'beat children into submission', nor ever perform spanking in anger. I feel his views are slightly misrepresented.
— SimonEast 06:06, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Dobson, Teresa, et al...
A group of post-modern teenagers is looking into a greenhouse from outside. They don't want to go in; learning horticulture would require discipline. They prefer to remain at a distance. The lushness of the growth inside doesn't impress them; rather it vaguely irritates them that someone is doing good and well.
Faintly through the steamy glass, they see the gardener pruning his plants. "Aha!" they think, "He's performing an act of destruction and brutality." So they pick up every stone they can find, and commence to smash the greenhouse. Pollinator 13:49, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)
Well put, Pollinator! May your tribe increase. . . 209.221.222.206 06:52, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC) avnative
Dobson's Child-Rearing Advice
"In The Strong-Willed Child, Dobson draws a strong analogy between child rearing and dog rearing. He tells a story in which the family dog refuses to leave his resting place on the lid of the toilet seat. According to Dobson, a "vicious fight" between him and the dog resulted in which he "fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt [sic]." . . . And don't forget that this dog was a dachshund! After the youngest of my children and stepchildren were teens, and I was a grandmother to my first, I found that my grandson was very much a strong-willed child. I was advised by some well-meaning folk to read Dobson for advice. I bought and borrowed every child-rearing book that he had and spent part of a vacation-week reading them. The man advises some very shocking parental behavior.
The part about Dobson's dachshund was not just about comparing children to dogs, which is bad enough; it was also about using a belt -- treating a child as Dobson does his dog. It needs to stay in the article. It is a good, representative quotation of his views on child rearing.
He also advocates a particularly devious and cruel act of a parent upon a child who is misbehaving in public. The parent can stand there, looking quite innocent, quite as though s/he were carressing the misbehaving child, while all the time, s/he is squeezing the child's trapezius muscle until the child buckles in pain.
Ah, the good doctor! Raina 05:43, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- The Dobson Vulcan nerve pinch? — Matt 16:45, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Good, Matt!
- -D
I moved the following from the article (begin quote):
In The Strong-Willed Child, Dobson compares child rearing with dog rearing. He describes a situation in which Sigmund, the family dog, refuses to leave his resting place, the "furry lid of the toilet seat":
- "I had seen this defiant mood before, and knew there was only one way to deal with it. The only way to make Siggie [the family dog] obey is to threaten him with destruction. Nothing else works. I turned and went to my closet and got a small belt to help me 'reason' with Mr. Freud.
- "What developed next is impossible to describe. That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast. I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt. I am embarrassed by the memory of the entire scene. Inch by inch I moved him toward the family room and his bed. As a final desperate maneuver, Siggie backed into the corner for one last snarling stand. I eventually got him to bed, only because I outweighed him 200 to 12!
- "But this is not a book about the discipline of dogs; there is an important moral to my story that is highly relevant to the world of children. JUST AS SURELY AS A DOG WILL OCCASIONALLY CHALLENGE THE AUTHORITY OF HIS LEADERS, SO WILL A LITTLE CHILD—ONLY MORE SO." (emphasis Dobson)
Anti-spanking groups have criticized such views as highly simplistic and dangerous to children.
(end quote)
I removed it because it has nothing to do with spanking. The point of the story seems to be to point out that children, like dogs, will defy authority. In fact he says that's the point. (It's hardly a point that parents are likely to disagree with) The quote says nothing about how you deal with them, or about spanking. So the comment following it is irrelevant. DJ Clayworth 19:30, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
- Whether parents agree with him is not the point; the point is that this is a good, representative quotation of his views on child rearing, and in terms of NPOV, it is important to note that anti-spanking groups have criticized these views as simplistic. I have therefore restored the quotation.--Eloquence*
What's the source on the "more than 200 million people hear his show"? That number seems extraordinary (note that I scrupulously avoided "frightening"). Meelar 19:00, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Dunno. However, by going to [5] you can see there's more than 3000 places on the radio dial that transmit his radio program in 12 languages in over 95 countries. A more probable source for the number of listeners is listener contact (by email, regular mail, and telephone) with Focus. Those numbers are probably in Focus' private domain. If "more than 200 million people hear his show" that probably would reflect a worldwide figure. Focus is an international organization, after all - just check out the website a bit. And please, Meelar, don't be frightened. (smile) 209.221.222.206 06:52, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC) avnative
Corporal punishment section
Eeg...I have two problems with the "views on corporal punishment and authority" section. First, I disagree with Eloquence: I don't think the current quotes are very representative of Dobson's overall position on corporal punishment; "Project Nospank" quotes a similar set when advocating against corporal punishment: [6]). I think they're a little selective, at least. Other quotes from Dobson:
- "discipline must not be harsh and destructive to the child's spirit"
- "Corporal punishment should be a rather infrequent occurrence."
- "I think it is very important after punishment to embrace the child in love."
- " Corporal punishment is not effective at the junior and senior high school levels, and I do not recommend its application."
- "Anyone who secretly enjoys the administration of corporal punishment should not be the one to implement it."
- "Anyone who has a violent temper that at times becomes unmanageable should not use that approach [corporal punishment]"
- "When, then, should [Toddlers] be subjected to mild discipline? When they openly defy their parents' very clear commands!...Even in these situations, however, severe punishment is unwarranted. A firm rap on the fingers or a few minutes sitting on a chair will usually convey the same message as convincingly. Spankings should be reserved for a child's moments of greatest antagonism, usually occurring after the second, third, or fourth birthdays."
- "Question: You have described two extremes that are both harmful to kids, being too permissive and being too harsh... Answer:... The way to raise healthy children is to find the safety of the middle ground between disciplinary extremes."
— (all found in various linked pages from [7], can't be bothered to list them right now) My second problem is that this part is veering towards being a Wikiquote article; I think one or two quotes are OK, but the entire section? We should work to produce an NPOV narrative both of what Dobson says, and what criticism is levelled against him. — Matt 01:46, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Quotes are important whenever a statement is likely to be controversial. However, I agree that some of the above should be added, at least in paraphrased form. Right now the section would be more appropriately titled "Controversial views on ..", but we should try to make it a representative summary of his point of view, with a brief rebuttal from the other side. However, looking through the website, I see no evidence that these are actually Dobson's words and and not somebody else's - where are they attributed to him?--Eloquence*
- I think quotes can be useful, but I don't think they should drive the text, but rather illustrate it. Surely it's cumbersome and unnecessary to have a three-paragraph direct quote in the text? We should be able to agree on a summary and provide external links for the full text. As to the veracity of the above quotes, I rediscovered most of them today (potentially all, I haven't yet had a chance to look thoroughly) in print in Dr. Dobson Answers Your Questions (1988), ISBN 0842305807. The website attribution isn't obvious, you're right; it does attribute them to him, albeit indirectly e.g. [8] says, "Dr. James Dobson answers related questions about spanking in the Spanking Hot Topic collection.", and that hot topic collection contains the questions and answers. — Matt 14:26, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I believe the quotes in the article do seem a little one-sided, and very selective. I listen to FotF frequently, and I know that the Dr. would never 'beat children into submission', nor ever perform spanking in anger. I feel his views are slightly misrepresented.
— SimonEast 06:06, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Dobson, Teresa, et al...
A group of post-modern teenagers is looking into a greenhouse from outside. They don't want to go in; learning horticulture would require discipline. They prefer to remain at a distance. The lushness of the growth inside doesn't impress them; rather it vaguely irritates them that someone is doing good and well.
Faintly through the steamy glass, they see the gardener pruning his plants. "Aha!" they think, "He's performing an act of destruction and brutality." So they pick up every stone they can find, and commence to smash the greenhouse. Pollinator 13:49, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)
Well put, Pollinator! May your tribe increase. . . 209.221.222.206 06:52, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC) avnative
Dobson's Child-Rearing Advice
"In The Strong-Willed Child, Dobson draws a strong analogy between child rearing and dog rearing. He tells a story in which the family dog refuses to leave his resting place on the lid of the toilet seat. According to Dobson, a "vicious fight" between him and the dog resulted in which he "fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt [sic]." . . . And don't forget that this dog was a dachshund! After the youngest of my children and stepchildren were teens, and I was a grandmother to my first, I found that my grandson was very much a strong-willed child. I was advised by some well-meaning folk to read Dobson for advice. I bought and borrowed every child-rearing book that he had and spent part of a vacation-week reading them. The man advises some very shocking parental behavior.
The part about Dobson's dachshund was not just about comparing children to dogs, which is bad enough; it was also about using a belt -- treating a child as Dobson does his dog. It needs to stay in the article. It is a good, representative quotation of his views on child rearing.
He also advocates a particularly devious and cruel act of a parent upon a child who is misbehaving in public. The parent can stand there, looking quite innocent, quite as though s/he were carressing the misbehaving child, while all the time, s/he is squeezing the child's trapezius muscle until the child buckles in pain.
Ah, the good doctor! Raina 05:43, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- The Dobson Vulcan nerve pinch? — Matt 16:45, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Great, Matt! :-D Raina 18:19, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Dr Dobson's press office's (?) response to allegations that he criticised the character for being too gay. Apparently he was attacking the We Are Family Foundation (Dobson's capitalisation) for promoting "unity", "tolerance" and "diversity".
- While words like "diversity" and "unity" sound harmless — even noble — enough, the reality is they are often used by gay activists as cover for teaching children that homosexuality is the moral and biological equivalent to heterosexuality. And there is ample evidence that the We Are Family Foundation shares — and promotes — that view.
Oddly, he then goes on to commend someone else's condemnation of the cartoon series (though not the character). See here (scroll to the end).
- Attention! After the above letter was written, U.S. Secretary of Education, Margaret Spellings, sent a very strong letter of rebuke to the Public Broadcasting System, denouncing the use of federal funds to produce and distribute materials for children wherein cartoon characters were used to promote homosexual ideas and purposes. She wrote, "Many parents would not want their young children exposed to the lifestyles portrayed in the episode." Thank you, Mrs. Secretary!
- That is precisely the concern that led to my comments in January. At its heart, the issue before us is the "sexual re-orientation" and brainwashing of children by homosexual advocacy groups. It is going on in many schools today, both public and private. Make absolutely sure your child is not being targeted for this purpose. If it happens in his or her classroom, take an army of like-minded parents with you to the next board meeting, and let your voices be heard to the rooftops!
BTW, This letter may be reproduced without change and in its entirety for noncommercial and nonpolitical purposes without prior permission from Focus on the Family. Copyright © 2005 Focus on the Family. All rights reserved. International copyright secured. (Of course I'm making fair use of it).
Mr. Jones 19:16, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)