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July 2

Highborn English

So me and my friends has been playing a lot of JRPGs (FF12, FF Tactics and Octopath Traveler) and we noticed that a lot of highborn people speak English in interesting ways. They used interesting phrases like mayhap, perchance and pray tell. We call this speaking style highborn English, is there an actual term of this? Is there more example phrases of this English style. Me and my friend want to try to speak like that 121.211.242.59 (talk) 15:20, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Those kinds of words these days are probably best known from Shakespeare (“To sleep – perchance to dream" etc). They're just outdated terms, which makes them stand out. Fgf10 (talk) 15:44, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Technically, it's called Early Modern English. Generally, nobody speaks like that anymore (outside of video games that is), however English people occasionally use outdated words and phrases for comic effect; this article, What Is an Archaism? tries to explain. Alansplodge (talk) 16:16, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Forsooth, it hath gone the way of the dodo (at least that is what methinks). Clarityfiend (talk) 20:29, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

There is an association between high linguistic register and archaism. Partly because fancy people are taught with the classics, partly because they're taught prescriptivist grammar that holds on to older rules on what's correct. I imagine that this might be showing up in these games because of the fantasy elements that have an old flavor, and perhaps to emulate some register differences in the Japanese. If you want to play with this kind of speech, first get a hold on the very simple grammar. Do not emulate games like Chrono Trigger, where the translators made an embarrassing mess of their fake early modern English. Check the inflection: I have, thou (singular) hast, you (plural) have, she hath, they have. You can't go wrong reading a little Shakespeare. Another good source would be people like your American "founding fathers" types, whose writings can be (to us) circuitous, florid, redundant, and precise in a way that feels nicely aged. Or check out some of the characters in the TV show Deadwood. Some of them do a beautiful version of old talk, in a way that feels more high fantasy than old West. Temerarius (talk) 21:23, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Give me perchance, mayhaps, gadzooks and forsooth any day, over "So me and my friends has been playing ...". Sorry. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:30, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Don't all Aussies speak like the OP, Jack?--Phil Holmes (talk) 08:53, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

If only one counter-example is required, I'm it. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:47, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

In the Society for Creative Anachronism it is (or was) called "speaking forsoothly". —Tamfang (talk) 06:32, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

And in written material it can be called Wardour Street English. Deor (talk) 14:30, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

July 3

American English Pronounciation

Hi, I am looking for a site\ book\ videos where I can find for each English letter picture of how it looks in the inside of the mouth, like this, but for every letter in the American English pronounciation, and if the letter consists of a few "steps" (for example, in the word "new" the lips "shrinks" along the articulation), then a series of pictures\ a short video will be shown.

After searching the web a lot, I couldn't find what I want. Do you know of any such a site\ book\ Youtube channel, etc.? David (talk) 06:40, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

There is no direct correspondence between the letters used in writing (English orthography) and the phonemes used in speaking (English phonology). So you are looking for a source that shows the situation inside the oral cavity as each phoneme is articulated. The following two YouTube videos show some more phonemes: Introduction to Articulatory Phonetics (Vowels), Introduction to Articulatory Phonetics (Consonants), but they are not organized by phoneme and far from complete. For further searching, I suggest to use the search terms [articulation tongue lips phoneme].  --Lambiam 11:03, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

July 4

professional side interest

Is there a name for an interest that someone might have, that is only peripherally related to their work but somewhat relevant to it? It's not avocation which is more like an unrelated hobby.

Example: an automotive engineer at General Motors might maintain a side interest in aerospace engineering, because that is interesting in its own right (avocational), but also because the high tech materials used in aerospace can become relevant to cars, so the automotive engineer benefits from knowing about them. The same automotive engineer might also pay attention to what skateboard hobbyists are doing, since they come up with many clever design tricks that can also be transplanted.

It's not exactly right to say that the car engineer has a professional interest in skateboards, but it's not exactly a hobby interest either. Thanks for any suggestions. 2601:648:8200:970:0:0:0:23D0 (talk) 18:53, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Why isn't it right to say the engineer has a professional interest in skateboards? It works well: "I don't skateboard, but I have a professional interest in their construction." --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 00:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

It's right as far as it goes, but that sentence could also imply that the engineer makes money in some way from skateboard construction (he owns the patent for something used in their design, or holds shares in a skateboard manufacturer, etc). Like the OP I feel that there could be some word or term more specific to the concept they describe. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.163 (talk) 08:30, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

"I don't skateboard, but I am interested in their construction as it may inform my own work." --Khajidha (talk) 12:39, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there's a unique term that means "something I'm interested in in some way other than financially". --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 14:45, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

This is a perfect example of the importance of significant coverage in reliable sources. Consider the article about Henry Way Kendall, a winner of the Nobel Prize for Physics. Years ago, I learned that he was an accomplished deep sea diver and a mountaineer. He died in a diving accident. I found many reliable sources that verified these aspects of his life, and expanded his biography accordingly. Adding this type of well-referenced content results in a well-rounded biography, not just a directory listing. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:13, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

July 5

Is the word "exchange names" fits here?

Sentence: Robert and Sandy met together at a coffee shop, and they exchange names.

When I Google "exchange names", it gives me "telephone exchange" results. Rizosome (talk) 02:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

It's sorta fine (should be "exchanged"), but "together" is superfluous. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:10, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Where did you see this? And it should either be "meet" + "exchange" or "met" + "exchanged" in order to keep the tense consistent. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:00, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

If you're asking about the meaning of "exchange names" (which is two words), it presumably means they told each other their names.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:27, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Basically, Rizosome was reading "exchange" as a noun, but in that sentence it was a verb. Such Syntactic ambiguity is a common problem for ESL readers because English does not mark distinctions between nouns and verbs, or the grammatical specificity of either (as subject or object, for example) as clearly as do many other languages, so they can easily be confused or misread. This is one of the major contributors to the phenomenon of "crash blossom" newspaper headlines that additionally drop words to achieve more concision.

"Met together" is probably an attempt to overcome the ambiguousness of plain "met", which could mean either a deliberate or a chance encounter. "Met together", like the term "met up", implies that the meeting was deliberate and pre-arranged. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.163 (talk) 08:47, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Nevertheless, "get together" for a planned encounter sounds better (to me) than the pleonastic "meet together" – which IMO is still ambiguous, since it can also be used for a chance encounter.^[1]. Or use "agree to meet".  --Lambiam 10:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I'd probably use met up in this case, but yeah, there's a bit of tense confusion going on. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 11:44, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

"Met together" sounds like a bad translation to me, I find it hard to imagine a native saying it. DuncanHill (talk) 12:35, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

To me, the sentence (despite its problems) suggests that this was a chance meeting, as they exchanged names after they met. In most planned meetings, I would expect to know the name of the person I am meeting even if I am meeting them for the first time. --Khajidha (talk) 12:28, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

The sentence reads like a line from a film synopsis (A Patch of Fog?).  --Lambiam 10:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

As an aside, the synopsis in that article read rather awkwardly. I have given it a once over, but it could probably still use a little polishing. --Khajidha (talk) 12:37, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

This line solved my problem: If you're asking about the meaning of "exchange names" (which is two words), it presumably means they told each other their names. Rizosome (talk) 01:31, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Resolved

"Heave away!"

What's the scope of meanings of "Heave away!"? It seems to me that in most contexts it's a rather archaic and unfriendly way to say "Go away!". But in "So, heave her up and away we'll go - Heave away, Santy Anno." it seems to be a happy 'command' to the ship to drive forth and gather pace. Is that correct, and what else can it mean? --KnightMove (talk) 11:36, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Heave has many meanings, in the instances you quote see this from the OED - Heave: "Nautical. To haul up or raise by means of a rope; and, more generally, to haul, pull, draw with a rope or cable; to haul a cable; to weigh (anchor); to unfurl (a flag or sail; also, to heave out); to cause (a ship) to move in some direction, as by hauling at a rope (e.g. at the anchor-cable when she is aground, or at the sail-ropes so as to set the sails to the wind)" and "To pull or haul (at a rope, etc.); to push (at the capstan so as to urge it round and haul in the cable); to move the ship in some direction by such means; of the ship, to move or turn in some direction" DuncanHill (talk) 11:45, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

In the context of giving a command to commence an action, the phrase "X away" can simply mean "Start x-ing and continue to x until told otherwise or the task is completed." As DuncanHill's extract implies, heaving on ropes, etc. would have been a frequent task in the age of sail, and as "Heave!" was/is a good word to co-ordinate and encourage a team of people performing such tasks, it features frequently in sea shanties. "Heave to", on the other hand, means something different though still nautical. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.163 (talk) 18:00, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Sea shanties were work songs, getting everyone in a rhythm for pulling together on a rope or capstan, so you might be singing "Heave away! Heave away!" while hoisting sails for example. Alansplodge (talk) 19:18, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

If you were seasick, I would say, "Heave away from me." Clarityfiend (talk) 04:10, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

@Alansplodge: This song was one of the inspirations for my question. Who/what is the "rolling king" here, and what does it mean for him to "heave away"? --KnightMove (talk) 08:09, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

"Rolling king" was originally "rollicking" (i.e. merry or drunk). [2]

Wiktionary:away#Adverb says:

"10. On; in continuance; without intermission or delay. She's been in her room all day, working away at her computer.

"11. Without restraint. You've got questions? Ask away!

So the whole phrase means "pull on the rope without delay or restraint, you drunkards". Alansplodge (talk) 10:21, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Wiktionary gives the sense of the adjective rollicking as "carefree, merry and boisterous". A colloquial meaning of the adjective rolling is "drunk (intoxicated from alcohol), staggering".  --Lambiam 10:31, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Last follow-up question is the following stanza of a version of Santy Anno:

When Zachary Taylor gained the day,

Heave away, Santy Anno,

He made poor Santy run away,

All on the plains of Mexico.

the "Heave away, Santy Anno" is to be interpreted as "Get lost, Santa Anna!" Right? --KnightMove (talk) 10:48, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

No, I think it still means "pull on the rope". Sea shanties were work songs - the "heave away" part was a repeated refrain sung by everyone. Our Santianna article gives an alternative as "Heave and weigh Santiana" as in weigh anchor. Alansplodge (talk) 10:51, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Intelligence = information, news

I'm looking for the origin of this meaning. Is Intelligence meaning News / Information as in Intelligence Agency originally AE? Or it comes from BE ? Thank you. 2003:F5:6F18:900:9DA8:8E83:EEE8:1C06 (talk) 19:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC) Marco PB

Where did you see it? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:37, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Etymonline.com gives it as attested in mid-15c., not sure what's the source for this bit. French seems to have some meanings involving "secrets", but probably nothing as clear as English (that may be diferent for older times, or if you ask someone who actually speaks French). Personuser (talk) 20:10, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Clarification: OP is probably referring to meaning 3 (and 4) as opposed to 1 (and 2) as numbered at wiktionary. The loosly related modern French use I was referring to is être d'intelligence. Personuser (talk) 20:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that is it, thank you. In my background the standard meaning of intelligence is the ability or skill to solve problems, understand situations and foresee consequences. The meaning of collecting informations as in CIA (no implications) was not familiar to me and I had the impression it could be something special to AE. But I found also the reference to the mid-15c, so this usage definitely did not originate in the USA. 2003:F5:6F18:900:8DCF:B80D:B1E9:AFAF (talk) 14:31, 6 July 2021 (UTC) Marco PB

"The aungel Gabryel apperyd hym to, That hese wyff xulde conseyve he ȝaff hym intelligence"[3](7. meaning). Not quite the context I was expecting. Personuser (talk) 01:40, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Godefroy lists a meaning for Old French intelligence of "Communication entre personnes qui s’entendent" ("Communication between people who communicate").^[4] (Does the aungel Gabryel qualify as people?)  --Lambiam 10:04, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

In this sense Italian has "intelligenza col nemico", that is "having agreements with the enemy", a form of trahison.

Thanks to everybody 2003:F5:6F18:900:8DCF:B80D:B1E9:AFAF (talk) 14:31, 6 July 2021 (UTC) Marco PB

I would read s'entendent as "understand each other". —Tamfang (talk) 03:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

July 6

How do I say the Nth root of a number?

How do I say:

${\sqrt[{n}]{a}}$

when n equals to -3, -2, -1, 1.5, or 2.5? - Toytoy (talk) 03:42, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

This is more a math than a language question. Since ${\sqrt[{n}]{a}}$ is just another way of writing a^1/n, I would suggest pronunciations such as "a to the power minus one-third", "a to the power minus one-half", and so on. --174.94.31.124 (talk) 04:25, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

This is still a language question, since I doubt there isn't a way to say out loud in English that ${\sqrt[{-3}]{a}}$ is equal to a^1/-3 or whatever is the right conversion. Nevertheless, if you don't get a good answer here soon, the math reference desk seems a good place for finding one. Personuser (talk) 04:42, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

I knew this is not a math thing. But I will ask the same question in the math section. It really is weird. -- Toytoy (talk) 05:17, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

I think this can get weird in other languages too, especially when ordinal numerals are involved (getting rid of them with some locution seems a common approach). For higher math possibly they rely a lot more on written symbols, but this seems something that is spoken in schools quite a lot. Personuser (talk) 05:48, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

When vocalized in English (see Language of mathematics § The grammar of mathematics), the expression ${\sqrt[{n}]{x}}$ is conventionally pronounced as "the nth root of x", or, if you wish, "the enth root of eks". So, while many will pronounce ${\sqrt[{3}]{x}}$ as "the cube root of x", you will also find "the third root of x".^[5][6][7] Similarly, people ask about "the ith root of i" (see Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Mathematics/2007 March 28#ith root of i). Analogously, ${\sqrt[{\pi }]{\pi }}$ becomes "the pith root of pi" (see also pith#Adjective on Wiktionary). Generalizing this even further, you'd get "the minus third root of a", ..., "the two-and-a-halfth root of a". For "minus third", compare "four times ten to the minus third" (for 4 × 10⁻³).^[8]  --Lambiam 09:11, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

That last comparison would be "four times ten to the minus three" in some parts of the world (at least).Page 5 Bazza (talk) 11:50, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

I would express that as "four times ten to the power of negative three". --Khajidha (talk) 12:14, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

@Khajidha: Thanks. That seems to be a US–British (and maybe others) difference, but we seem to agree that for "powers" cardinal numerals are spoken, whereas "roots" use ordinals. Bazza (talk) 12:28, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

The use of ordinals for powers is pretty common, though. I'm not sure if the "ten to the third" or "ten to the power of three" is more common where I'm from. And it may vary a bit between more or less popular and more or less technical usage. Ordinals for roots is pretty much standard 'round here, though. --Khajidha (talk) 12:54, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

In my experience, the notation ${\sqrt[{n}]{a}}$ is actually not very commonly used except for a few low-integer values of n. When n is a fraction or a negative number, most people will switch to the notation $a^{1/n}$, which is much more convenient for most purposes. --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:34, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

We say 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and assume all ordinal numbers are integers. However, if you are asked to use it mathematically, it's now demanded to have non-integer ordinal numbers. What is the ordinal form for numbers 1.5 and 2.5? Do we say 1.5st or 1.5nd? Or we just say 1.5th? I think it's seriously funny question. -- Toytoy (talk) 05:06, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Personally, if I had to read ${\sqrt[{1.5}]{a}}$ and ${\sqrt[{2.5}]{a}}$ aloud, I would say "one point fifth root of a" and "two point fifth root of a" respectively. But (in agreement with previous answers) I wouldn't be likely to put it that way in my own words, either written or spoken. And I don't know that others would read them in the same way. --Amble (talk) 15:49, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Here are a few older books that do use the form "1.5th root": [9], [10], [11]. But it seems more natural to call it a "two-thirds power", and for example in the study of human motion there's a "two-thirds power law" [12], not a "one point fifth root law". --Amble (talk) 18:52, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

That's great. One way or another, you'll encounter a situation that you're asked to say ${\sqrt[{-1.2675675}]{x}}$ or something like that. I probably won't be petrified when someone asked me to do so. Ha! Thank you all! -- Toytoy (talk) 04:43, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Not to mention that "one point fifth" could easily be misunderstood as "1.2". --Khajidha (talk) 13:26, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Latin for "honey-eating"

Is there an existing Latin word, or can anyone propose a Latin neologism, for "honey-eating"? Ideally a cognate of "medved". Thanks! Lantzy : Lantzy 14:20, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

"mellivorous" (or "mellivorus/mellivora/mellivorum" in Latin)? The honey badger's binomial is actually Mellivora capensis, and that of the white-necked jacobin is Florisuga mellivora. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:11, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

(though neither part appears to be a cognate of medved. See médʰu and mélit, as well as h₁édti and gʷerh₃-). ---Sluzzelin talk 15:41, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

The lemma form of the Latin adjective is the masculine singular nominative, mellivorus. It will decline just like omnivorus. The Latin word for "badger", meles, is feminine, which is probably why Storr proposed a feminine form for the genus name of the honey badger. If you apply the adjective in Latin to a noun, it should agree in gender, number and case.  --Lambiam 18:30, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Wait, it's called meles? Is that a coincidence or something? Temerarius (talk) 20:40, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Lexical bloody integrity?

Does tmesis in English violate the "Lexical Integrity Hypothesis"? The example mentioned at the very bottom of the latter article looks like substantially the same thing - but if so, it seems a bit strange to look as far afield as an Australian Aboriginal language when English would have served as well. Maybe it's about formal versus informal usages, or some such?

- 2A02:560:4259:7600:1472:5365:194D:3DFD (talk) 21:47, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

I suppose the Lexical Integrity Hypothesis (LIH) is about productive transformations. One doesn't hear people say, ^✽That's im-fucking-possible!. And, I assume, it is also not about transformations that are generally considered irregular – otherwise, stuttering and (unintentional) spoonerisms violate the LIH. Intentional spoonerisms, tmeses à la Ned Flanders, or other humorous word games, are also outside the scope of the LIH.  --Lambiam 23:02, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

My impression is that tmesis is, and is considered, a somewhat productive technique, notwithstanding the fact that a handful of well-worn coinages account for a large majority of occurrences. This paper, for example, refers to it as an "active [...] derivational process" and to its output as an "open set of lexemes" in the abstract. But the rest of your reply stands, and thinking of it is as a form of, or at least in the vicinity of, a "word game", makes a lot of sense. And one of the google hits for "im-fucking-possible" is a textbook titled "Extra-grammatical Morphology in English", which does too. Thanks!

- (OP) 2A02:560:4259:7600:3DC2:1024:A2:6071 (talk) 07:58, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

One doesn't hear people say, ^✽That's im-fucking-possible!. Not sure about that: see here; also wikt:unfuckingbelievable. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 08:13, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Syntax: A Linguistic Introduction to Sentence Structure (p. 175) also has im-BLOODY-possible, which also has a number of Google results in less exalted media, including #Imbloodypossible on Twitter. Alansplodge (talk) 11:35, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Premodifiers in English: Their Structure and Significance (p. 209) has "un-bloody-believable", a phrase which seems to be particularly popular with Australian sports writers [13]. Alansplodge (talk) 11:44, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

"One doesn't hear people say, ✽That's im-fucking-possible!." Really? You don't know people who say that (or equivalents)? Really? Do you only know very boring prissy people? Because that sort of phrasing is quite familiar to me. --Khajidha (talk) 13:30, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

July 7

Examples of synonymous paronyms

Paronym states, "Some paronyms are truly synonymous, but only under the rarest of conditions. They often lead to confusion."

Can someone please give some examples to make it clearer to the reader? Thanks, cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 11:34, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

@Edcolins: wrote that statement, early in the article's history, and is still active. Perhaps he can clarify. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:02, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I'd be tempted to restart that article from scratch. For starters I see the Wiktionary definition does not agree with the Wikipedia definition. According to the Wiktionary definition, which is much clearer, flammable and inflammable would be examples.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:30, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

That would be an example where one word ("inflammable") can mean the same thing ('capable of burning') or something else (in this case the opposite, 'incapable of burning') than the other word ("flammable"), while "flammable" can never mean 'incapable of burning'.

Another type of example might be a set of words that have evolved to become synonymous in certain contexts or in combination with certain words, but have distinct meanings in other contexts. "Empirical Approaches to German Paronyms" attempts to illustrate this with the paronyms "effektiv"/"effizient" ("effective" and "efficient"). Sometimes I even think the distinction has died away, except among the prescriptivist and pedantic. One other famous German paronymous pair is "anscheinend" and "scheinbar": Nowadays a lot of people, including journalists and writers, use them synonymously.

I can't think of corresponding examples in English, but they must exist. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:51, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

It stands to reason that no such thing as "true synonyms" in the sense that different words mean the same thing across all contexts, facets, varieties, et cetera exists: Making distinctions is arguably what language is all about, so if one can be made, it will be, however small in scale and scope. So it makes more sense to me to think of synonyms as words whose respective ranges of meanings overlap, and conceivably of one pair of synonyms as more "true" than another when there's more overlap.

To look at it another way, it doesn't really happen that a person uses two words entirely interchangeably. Whenever the person chooses one word over the other on a given occasion, that choice will have some basis - though the basis need not be a conscious one, so the person may well not be able to explain it. In the case of non-paronymous synonyms, it can have more to do with how the alternatives sound, or with how they "taste" or "feel" in a less literal sense, than with shades of meaning. But in the case of paronymous synoyms, those distinctions go away as well - which makes it a bit of a curious concept, to my mind.

- 2A02:560:4259:7600:3DC2:1024:A2:6071 (talk) 18:59, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree (and agreed with you here). It appears that paronyms are often discussed in cases resembling Mrs. Malaprop's use of words, but I'm not sure that's what paronyms are all about. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:19, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

The OED defines "paronym" as:

1) A word which is derived from another word, or from a word with the same root, and having a related or similar meaning (e.g. childhood and childish); a derivative or cognate word
2) A word from one language which translates into another with only minor changes in form, or with no change at all; a word formed by adaptation of a foreign word. Opposed to heteronym
3a) A word similar in sound or appearance to another; esp. a near homonym.
3b) A play on words that are similar in appearance or sound; = paronomasia
4) Philosophy. Esp. in Aristotelian philosophy (with reference to Aristotle Categories 1. 1a12–15): something predicated on accidental qualities of a substance rather than on the substance itself; a derivative quality.

Our article seems to be about 3a, but if any of these definitions deserved an encyclopaedia article it would be 4. DuncanHill (talk) 20:27, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

What does "Non-official" refer to?

Allen wants to put security near coffee resources:

Allen: Our economic interests are being compromised, to say nothing of the dangers of a Soviet presence so close to home. For security, Edward, we must establish our own presence there. I want you two to put your heads together on this. Michael will be going down there as an agricultural specialist with the Mayan Coffee Company. Non-official.

What does "Non-official" refer to? Rizosome (talk) 14:23, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Presumably it means it will be an informal visit, not an official one.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:32, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

If the context is tradecraft, broadly speaking, it could refer specifically no a "non-official cover" - whence the acronym "NOC list", familiar from spy stories like Mission Impossible and Burn Notice.

- 2A02:560:4259:7600:3DC2:1024:A2:6071 (talk) 15:51, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

The context is indeed espionage; see The Good Shepherd (film). In reality (the reality of the narrative) Michael is a covert CIA agent.  --Lambiam 19:07, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

What does "specifically no a" mean? Rizosome (talk) 00:16, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

If you are referring to the comment above, it's very likely just a typo for "specifically to a". Personuser (talk) 00:38, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Is there any site where I can find a list of natural languages that dont or have have certain phonemes.

Is there any site where I can find a list of natural languages that dont or have certain phonemes?179.181.238.30 (talk) 22:26, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

For every phoneme, Wikipedia lists languages that use that phoneme. For example, we find that the voiced uvular implosive is used in the Mam language, and that the near-close near-front unrounded vowel occurs in Afrikaans, Arabic, Lebanese, Burmese, Chinese, Czech, Danish, Dutch, English, General American, Estuary, Received Pronunciation, General Australian, Inland Northern American, Philadelphian, Welsh, New Zealand, Australian, South African, French, German, Hindustani, Hungarian, Icelandic, Kurdish, Limburgish, Luxembourgish, Malay, Norwegian, Portuguese, Russian, Saterland Frisian, Sinhala, Slovak, Sotho, Spanish, Murcian, Swedish, Temne, Turkish, Ukrainian, Welsh, and Yoruba. These lists are far from complete, though. Note also that the phonemic space may be carved up differently for different lects, that the seemingly neat picture is blurred by regional pronunciations and allophones, and that linguists often do not agree on particular assignments or use simplified transcriptions.  --Lambiam 07:34, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• Phonological Inventories by Steven Moran includes links to several databases of phonemes. Some are broken links now, or regional, but UCLA Phonological Segment Inventory Database and PHOIBLE are closest to what you are asking for. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:14, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

July 8

I before e except after c

Every rule has some exceptions, but they usually represent a small minority of cases. I have read that only 44 words conform to the 'i before e' rule, while there are 923 words that do not. Is this true? If so, why weren't the 44 made the exceptions rather than the 923? Is it because the 44 words are more commonly encountered than the 923? 112.141.225.154 (talk) 07:34, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Where is your source for the figures you quote? If it's just a count of those letter pairs, it may be strongly influenced by words like "abilities" where the "rule" does not apply.--Phil Holmes (talk) 07:49, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Did you mean words like "fancies" (inflected forms of words ending on "-cy")?  --Lambiam 08:14, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I suggest you read our article on I before E except after C.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:52, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

(ec) There are various versions of the I before E except after C rule that aim to exclude large classes of predictable exceptions. Category:English words not following the I before E except after C rule on Wiktionary contains 7,331 members, from atheist to zootheist. Unfortunately, no distinction is made between *cie* and *[not-c]ei*. The claim that there are only 44 words conforming to the rule cannot be right. Just for words of length up to five letters we have: abies, adieu, alien, ariel, bield, bier, brief, brier, chief, cried, crier, die, dieb, diego, diene, dier, diet, dried, drier, fie, field, fiend, fiery, flier, fried, frier, grief, hie, hield, ivied, kier, lie, lied, lief, liege, lien, lier, lieu, mien, niece, nieve, oriel, osier, pie, piece, pied, piend, pier, piet, piety, piezo, plier, pried, prier, quiet, rie, riem, shied, shiel, shier, shies, sie, siege, sieva, sieve, skied, skier, skies, spied, spiel, spier, thief, tie, tied, tier, tried, trier, vie, vier, view, viewy, wield, wried, wrier, yield, ziega.  --Lambiam 08:14, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Plus ceil, ceiba, ceibo.  --Lambiam 08:19, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Maybe simply learn the "full form" of the mnemonic:
"I before e, except after c
Or when sounded as 'a' as in 'neighbor' and 'weigh'
Unless the 'c' is part of a 'sh' sound as in 'glacier'
Or it appears in comparatives and superlatives like 'fancier'
And also except when the vowels are sounded as 'e' as in 'seize'
Or 'i' as in 'height'
Or also in '-ing' inflections ending in '-e' as in 'cueing'
Or in compound words as in 'albeit'
Or occasionally in technical words with strong etymological links to their parent languages as in 'cuneiform'
Or in other numerous and random exceptions such as 'science', 'forfeit', and 'weird'."
--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:27, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Apparently the "only 44" claim comes from a social media meme [14]. This was picked-up by this edition of QI.

However, the assertion is that only 44 words conform to the "except after c" part of the rule, rather than the "i before e" rule itself that Lambiam has counted above. The 923 words that have "i before e" following "c" would seem to include an awful lot of foreign loan-words; "hacienda" was quoted by Stephen Fry and I think it's debatable whether you can apply English spelling rules to words taken directly from other languages. Alansplodge (talk) 11:09, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

This article cites research by a student at Warwick University who attempted to prove the claims made on QI:

He found that, out of the hundreds of thousands of words he studied, “i” did indeed come before “e” roughly 75% of the time... “Except after C” is where everything falls apart. Comparing his list for words containing “cie” and “cei,” Cunningham found that, once again, “i” came before “e” nearly 75% of the time—even after “c”...

He found that a more reliable rule would be “I before E, except after W.” Numbering just shy of 200 words, uses of “wei” (mostly from variations on weight, weightiest, aweigh, etc.) were 70% likelier to appear than “wie” (in words like dewiest and chewiest). No other letter, save for words that begin with “ei” like either and eighty, held to the rule with such significant frequency. Alansplodge (talk) 11:36, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Didn't know about "w", but I was always taught (many several years ago) that it's "i before e, except after c and the e and the i sound like ee". Whatever, it's worth remembering the ditty is a mnemonic to (sometimes) help spell, not a rule in itself. Bazza (talk) 12:14, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

According to this, the 44 and 923 numbers originally came from The Elements of Eloquence (2013) by Mark Forsyth. Alansplodge (talk) 12:19, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

using the word or and comma terms.

example: Much like Looney Tunes: Back in Action, it tends to focus a bit more on the lead human character, or all of them in fact, rather than the main focus who is Tom and Jerry themselves. why they use or after the comma? i don't think so. link: https://awfulmovies.miraheze.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Tom_%26_Jerry_(2021)&curid=28336&diff=141891&oldid=141841 it tends to focus all of them in fact, rather than the main focus who is tom and jerry themselves. means It tends to focus a bit more all of them in fact. is that true?125.166.155.105 (talk) 08:34, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

It's poorly expressed, but the comma is necessary because "or all of them in fact" is a parenthetical phrase. See Parenthetical comma.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 13:14, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Rephrasing the sentence: "Much like Looney Tunes: Back in Action, the film does not focus mainly on Tom and Jerry themselves; rather, it tends to focus a bit more on the human characters."  --Lambiam 13:31, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Stinks to high heaven

What is the origin of this idiomatic English phrase? How many levels of heavenly stinkage are there? Can we reasonably expect that cloud nine will be relatively unstinky? I do hope someone can sniff out an answer. Thank you. 86.187.233.245 (talk) 18:55, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

In the idiom, the high heaven is not inherently smelly, but an earthly stench is so pungent that its zone of smelliness reaches upwards towards the high heaven. AnonMoos (talk) 21:01, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

As to "high heaven", in Newspapers.com (pay site, not comprehensive) the earliest reference I'm seeing is in 1733. The first occurrence of "stinks" or "stinking" to high heaven, I'm seeing in 1873. And the casual way it's used suggests the expression is not new. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:11, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

French pronunciation

I'm trying to learn some French - enough to read Jules Verne and to get by when travelling. I'm using Mondly, which is fun, but, by now, seems to be a bit shallow (and it does have a small number of errors, or at least unfortunate translations, I think). Anyways, one feature of Mondly is that it tries to recognise spoken language (and overall it seems to be decent at it). Sometimes it misunderstands me - fair enough, I probably have a horrible accent. But then there are several word combinations where, to my ear, two different words sound totally identical in French - often the singular and the plural of the word. I just found the pair "restaurant"/"restaurants". Can a native French speaker distinguish these spoken words without context? I also find "Je" (as in "I") very hard to distinguish from "J'ai". And there are certainly more such pairs... ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:05, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

There is no audible difference between the singular and plural of most nouns and adjectives; they are distinguished by their articles. But je /ʒə/ and j'ai /ʒɛ/ should be clearly distinct. —Tamfang (talk) 04:08, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, that is helpful! And yes, if I use DeepL to pronounce both "Je' and "J'ai" for me, I can clearly distinguish them. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 05:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

July 9

What does "painted rust" mean?

• Soviet power is a myth. A great show, but there are no spare parts. Nothing is working. It's nothing but painted rust.

What does "painted rust" mean? Rizosome (talk) 01:35, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• I don't know the context, but from the wording, it sounds like it's a special case. The metal that acted as a metaphor for the Soviet Union was already rusting, but instead of replacing it, the Soviet Union painted it to make it look new. So it's not really a concept in everyday use. JIP | Talk 01:37, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

See also Potemkin village. 2602:24A:DE47:BA60:8FCB:EA4E:7FBD:4814 (talk) 08:24, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Idiom for looking good on the outside, but rotten on the inside. Bazza (talk) 08:52, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Question about companion ships

In the article I just translated from Finnish: MS Viking Glory, I wrote:

Her companion ship will be MS Viking Grace.

Now, MS Viking Grace has already been in traffic for over half a decade. It's MS Viking Glory that is the new ship to join her. Did I write this right, or should it be reworded? JIP | Talk 01:35, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

How about She will be a companion to MS Viking Grace? —Tamfang (talk) 04:09, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Polish hycel

The first season of the Polish detective show Ultraviolet ends with a two-parter about a serial killer dubbed Hycel. (When exposed, he remarks that the label is over the top, melodramatic.) The only translation I can find for the word hycel is 'dogcatcher' or 'animal control officer'. Could it mean something else with a diacritic? —Tamfang (talk) 04:04, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

A synonym for "hycel" is "kat" in Polish which means executioner or hangman which seems more appropriate for a serial killer. https://en.bab.la/dictionary/polish-english/kat 41.165.67.114 (talk) 10:10, 9 July 2021 (UTC)