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Talk:Parliament Acts 1911 and 1949

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by RetiredUser2 (talk | contribs) at 21:21, 21 January 2005 (German article). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Referring to this document of the Government of the UK I doubt that the Temperance (Scotland) Act 1913 has been introduced with a Parliament Act. Can somebody please check this issue and change the article if necessary? -- Umaluagr 12:49, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

See page 9 of that document:
"The procedure prescribed by the Parliament Act 1911 was used in one other case, that of the Temperance (Scotland) Bill 1913."
That document is mentioned in the References section on the article page - it was a source for my additions on 16 September. (PS - it is helpful to sign and date comments by adding ~~~~ at the end. I've done it for you.) -- ALoan (Talk) 12:46, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is basically correct. But it was no Parliament Act, because the bill received royal assent with the agreement of the Lords in the second session. In my opinion it is just a Parliament Act, when the bill passes through without the approval of the Lords.

Further on in this paragraph you can read: "All these Bills were rejected by the House of Lords in the first session, subsequently certified by the Speaker under the Parliament Acts and sent to the Lords, but then received Royal Assent in the final session with the agreement of the Lords as a result of compromise amendments." In this case the Temperance (Scotland) Act should be listed in the threats for a Parliament Act.

I am writing on the German article for the Parliament Act, so I am happy if you can give me some input on that issue, so that I can correct it there as well. --Umaluagr 10:56, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ah - thanks for the further comment, which makes perfect sense. I have corrected the article to deal with my mistake (mis-reading that document, I thought the end of that paragraph referred only to the later two bills, not the earlier one too, but I see that I was wrong). -- ALoan (Talk) 12:27, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Invoking the Parliament Acts"

To talk about "invoking the Parliament Acts" may be a little misleading: it seems to imply the active taking of certain discretionary steps. However, section 2(1) of the Act, quoted on page 3 of SN/PC/675, makes it look like the operation is automatic (provided of course that all relevant conditions are met by the Bill), and that the Bill "shall ... be presented" for Royal Assent "unless the House of Commons direct to the contrary". So for a government to "threaten to use the Parliament Acts" means something like "we will not ask the Commons to direct to the contrary [and will oppose any such motion if proposed]". It is a subtle point, and I have not changed the article. I do not have access to the full text of the Acts. It would appear that the Speaker still has to certify the Bill: see the statement corresponding to footnote 13 on page 6 of SN/PC/675 and the bullet point corresponding to footnote 68 on page 16 of SN/PC/675. As with the certification of money bills, it is the Speaker and not the government who is invested with this particular power. The Speaker should, of course, himself be directed by the will of the House of Commons. -- G Colyer 19:21, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

See the end of this BBC News story. -- G Colyer 20:52, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I too am unhappy about the usage "invoking the Parliament Acts". I have read through the text of the acts carefully and it is quite clear (they are remarkably clearly drafted) that the acts come into play automatically unless the Commons takes action to stop them doing so. This means that nobody really "invokes" the act, rather they refrain from stopping their effect. Francis Davey 01:35, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's very common usage, even if technically incorrect. Even if Wikipedia indicates that the usage is incorrect, we shouldn't pretend it never exists. Fwiw, my understanding was that The Speaker had to certify the Bill for Royal Assent (without the Lords' agreement), which would imply that nothing is automatic — there is a conscious decision on the part of The Speaker to do so, irrespective of whether he's only doing so "by the will of the Commons", n'est ce pas? — OwenBlacker 12:52, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)
I don't think Wikipedia need even indicate that the usage is incorrect, just avoid using it.
What is the procedure normally used to convey the Commons' approval prior to Royal Assent? Do all bills normally terminate their passage in the Lords, regardless of where they begin? This "certification" by the Speaker may (for all I know) be normal procedure. In any case, it is not the government that "invokes" the Parliament Acts even in this weak sense. G Colyer 19:41, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Outrageous! The equivalent page is is a featured article (Exzellente Artikel) in the German wikipedia! Look at their lovely diagrams! Something must be done... -- ALoan (Talk) 21:21, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

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