Talk:Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh/Archive 8

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Archive 7

Archive 8

Birthname

Should the line born... in the head of the article state his real birth name as per his birth certificate - Philippos? prince-philips-birth-certificate-in-greek-is-found-lying-buried-for-99-yearsKowalmistrz (talk) 09:40, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't see why not. Of course we have to use the two letters Ph to translate Phi. Maybe Aristotle Onassis provides a format. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:39, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I think it'll look messy right at the start like that, and it's better to keep it to the first sentence of the article body, where it is at the moment. Also, the sourcing is very poor (primary source and the Daily Mail). Most English-language sources use the English version and it could be undue to highlight a foreign language in the first sentence of the introduction. Celia Homeford (talk) 10:49, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree that those sources are not good, but I imagine it's easily located elsewhere (very probably in book form). But, um, you think e.g. Aristotle Onassis "looks messy"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:54, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I do. I find it very distracting and have difficulty making out where the actual text starts. Celia Homeford (talk) 10:56, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Acutally, its only a matter of style, how to put it. Its up to us to decide which form is better. But we must agree first that we need to correct the untrue statement that the Duke was born Philip. He was not. Or erase the name entirely to avoid this, just leaving the titles. Kowalmistrz (talk) 11:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm sure a proper source can be provided. Celia, the thing is he was not born Philip but Philippos. I think it is a standard here in Wiki bios that we provide original versions and/or forms/variants of the names, like in the articles of Princess Marina and, for example, George I of Great Britain and his |son. Therefore, I think we should do it. Kowalmistrz (talk) 11:03, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

So two separate locations: birth name in info box and opening sentence of lead (if we move it from existing first sentence in "Early life")? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:09, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I assume the current source is the printed version of the Danish newspaper Jydske Tidende from 18 May 1986. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:57, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

There seem to be two elements of this discussion: first is the lack of a reliable (ie not the Daily Mail) translation of the birth certificate for his given names, but surely we should be able to add his family name (Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderberg-Glücksburg) even if the given names are in doubt. JMcC (talk) 12:32, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

I took the thread to be about adding his birth name in Greek from the original Greek birth certificate. Possibly in two different locations. I don't think anyone is questioning the authenticity of the reproduced certificate. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:48, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

We can read the certificate for ourselves. The name Philippos is given there. The purported surname is not given anywhere, either on the certificate itself or in other sources, even one as bad as the Daily Mail. DrKay (talk) 13:52, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderberg-Glücksburg/Glücksburg/Oldenburg is not a surname. They are traditional names given to the royal house to which he belonged by birth, derived from the original possessions of the family. He had no surname until he became Philip Mountbatten. BTW, this article states he was given two names on his birth, Philippos Andreou. Kowalmistrz (talk) 08:07, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Andreou is a patronymic, designating him as the son of Andrew. Surtsicna (talk) 08:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

The article on Albert, Prince Consort gives his birth names (Franz Albert August Karl Emanuel) as something of an aside in the infobox. To me that seems a good way of doing things. It's worth noting that, although that article is featured, the German names were added in 2018, long after the article was featured. Thincat (talk) 09:39, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

His official and original birthname was Philippos Andreou (Philip Andrew) of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderberg-Glücksburg, Prince of Greece and Denmark. Histohob (talk) 15:20, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Some of your sources are tabloids, e.g. "The U.S. Sun, the U.S. online edition of The Sun (United Kingdom)." Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:30, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

...and the Express, plus I don't see of any of them saying it's his 'official' name. We don't use IMDb either. The original document can be seen in the link given in the opening comment, so we can read it for ourselves. It says 'Φiλliππoς'. There's no Andreou, and no surname. DrKay (talk) 15:31, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

IMDb: what a joke. I met him once, and I can absolutely assure you that he was not 6 feet tall! DrKay (talk) 15:35, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, his "Filmography" and "Soundtrack" sections are looking a bit thin. Was he ever on Broadway?? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:42, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Business Insider and Insider are both reliable sources and they use Philippos Andreou Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderberg-Glücksburg. Histohob (talk) 17:59, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Essentially that's the same source, isn't it? Insider actually says: "He was originally named Philippos Andreou Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg." Nothing about a "birthname"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:21, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

"Originally named" would imply his original name i.e. his birthname or name at origins. Histohob (talk) 18:38, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

If he was originally called that, there should be old sources that give him that name. There are sources given in the article that all say his birth name was Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark. These sources are either official (royal.uk and gc.ca) or more reliable news sources than tabloids (Sky News and the Telegraph). Wikipedia does not choose between sources when they are of equal weight, but is inclined to give more weight to more reliable sources or sources that are representative of majority/mainstream/academic opinion. DrKay (talk) 19:05, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

As DrKay says his birth name was 'Φiλliππoς'. I'd support adding that to the opening sentence. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:49, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Since Prince Philip was born in Greece, we know for a fact his birthname was not in English and would be the Greek variation of Philip. i.e. Philippos or 'Φiλliππoς'. Histohob (talk) 23:46, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

And once again I remind you, he had no surname until he became a Mountbatten. Schleswig-Holstein-... is the territorial designation of his dynasty used by historians and genealogists, as the family ruled/owned this specific part of their patrimony in their origins. His princely title came with the territorial designation of Greece and Denmark because he was by birth a prince (dynast) of Greece and Denmark but it was not his "surname". Philippos was the only name he was formally given at his birth, as is evidenced in the linked birth certificate, and Andreou, IMO, is often added (but not in the document) by convention to determine he is a son of an Andrew. Just like the Russians use the names of their fathers (it's a patronym, as Surtsicna noted). As for the first two British male royal consorts, George's article opens with Prince George of Denmark and Norway, Duke of Cumberland (Danish: Jørgen...)..., while Albert comes with Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Francis Albert Augustus Charles Emmanuel...)..., i.e. his names are given in their English versions, not in German (noted in the infobox).Kowalmistrz (talk) 08:35, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree. Then George provides a good example to follow for a Royal consort. The name "Albert" is the same in German as in English? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:48, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Franz Albert August Karl Emanuel were his given names in their original form. He went by the second name, which is the same in both German and English so not the same situation as with George (Jørgen) and Philip (Philippos). I think, in the head, we should change the name in the brackets to Philippos (or Fílippos) and leave the first sentence in the Early life section with Φίλιππος. Why Philippos? Well, his namesake, Constantine II's youngest son goes by the, I'd say Westernized-Greek version of the name - Philippos, as evidenced in this very good source. Also, I found this one, it's old but from the Guardian, written by the paper's royal correspondent, Stephen Bates. Kowalmistrz (talk) 14:21, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

References

Born Prince Philip Andrew Mountbatten

Please update article to add his full given name at birth: Prince Philip Andrew Mountbatten.

What's your source? What do you mean by "name at birth" - what appears on his birth certificate? Have you read the thread "Birthname" above? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:50, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

I did read the thread about the birth certificate and maybe the full name is given at the christening. The source is " https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/GC9V-M9C" Also it is mentioned in his BBC Obituary REF: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-10224525, that he wasn't allowed to give his children his last name which came as a bitter blow, to quote "The Queen's decision that the family would carry the name of Windsor, rather than his own family name of Mountbatten, was a bitter blow."

If you look a bit further up the page in the BBC obituary you linked to, you'll see that it also says "..before an engagement could be announced, the prince needed a new nationality and a family name. He renounced his Greek title, became a British citizen and took his mother's anglicised name, Mountbatten." In other words, that was not part of his name at birth, but a name he adopted as an adult. --bonadea contributions talk 11:16, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

User:THLeonard, could you please sign your posts here? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:21, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Okay, I can see your point that I was wrong to say Mountbatten was a birth name but as you have noted it still is relevant to his life. THLeonard (talk) 11:36, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Mountbatten is even linked in the infobox? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:40, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Death cause

Although the Royal household have not (yet at least) given formal indication of cause of death, it could be added (if the source can be found eg to BBC) that in interview yesterday his son the Earl of Wessex said his death was 'not due to Covid' so this could be interpreted as an albeit informal confirmation. I have heard him say this on my radio this morning (may be a repeat).Cloptonson (talk) 06:32, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Absent of a confirmation of the actual cause of death (the man was nearly 100 and had a history of heart problems, so my prediction: old age) what it wasn't should not be included in the article. We don't do that in artices about other subjects either. -- fdewaele, 12 April 2021, 10:42 CET.

+1. It isn't worth including this as the most likely cause of death was plain and simple old age.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 08:51, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

These are exceptional times. Many people are still dying from COVID. The Earl of Wessex's statement seems relevant, although I don't see it as "informal confirmation" of anything, apart from the fact that it wasn't COVID-19. I agree with Ian: we don't have any definitive "cause of death" for Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother. Not should we really expect one for someone so elderly? Martinevans123 (talk) 08:56, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Martinevans that these are exceptional times and on the relevancy of the Earl of Wessex's statement, which, given the likely PR guidance he would have had from within the royal household, shows he was at liberty to say what he said and that relevant medical opinion had ruled Covid out. I would suggest a link to the broadcast could be put in in the absence of a published cause that might be authoritative enough to supersede it. While a public statement of death cause remains outstanding, many might be tempted to speculate, Covid is a proverbial evolving beast with a potential for surprising developments. The Queen Mother did not die in the context of a pandemic so the question would not have arisen then in the minds of the public. Cloptonson (talk) 17:59, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

The death certificate says that he died of "old age".[1] This is pretty bland and doesn't tell us very much.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 12:37, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Freemasonry

Should his activities in Freemasonry be added? There is a primary source here and a secondary source here. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:51, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm neutral on whether the article should discuss this matter. But on whether the Daily Express is a reliable source: absolutely not, see WP:DAILYEXPRESS. —Tom Morris (talk) 16:11, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, maybe not the best source. Although the primary source could be used to verify? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:42, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: to establish due weight, having a reliable secondary source would be better. Elli (talk | contribs) 17:55, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I quite agree. I expect one will emerge in the next few days. Along with the New Age numerology conspiracy claims about him dying aged 99, on the 9th of the month, on the 99th day of the year. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:00, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

The Brotherhood (1984) by Stephen Knight discusses Philip's apparently reluctant Freemasonry.[2] Fences&Windows 09:20, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

That looks like an ideal source. A very good find. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:43, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: So are you still working on it and trying to gather information? Because I also think that this is an interesting topic that could be added to the article, if backed by appropriate sources. Keivan.f^Talk 04:49, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Not with any urgency. I was unsure where that should be placed. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:57, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: It could go under "Milestones" if it was something that he was regularly involved with (The article about Prince Edward, Duke of Kent has a separate section on it because he's heavily involved with it). Otherwise, I think it can go somewhere under personality and image as it was more of a personal interest for him I guess. Keivan.f^Talk 01:26, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Here are a few recent online sources. He was initiated on December 5, 1952 into Navy Lodge No. 2612. YouTube 1 YouTube 2 Tweet 1 Tweet 2 TimothyPilgrim (talk) 14:30, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I've added a couple of sentences, in the "Naval and wartime service" section, because of the chronology. I'm not sure it deserves any more than that. But please expand and/or relocate if appropriate. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:02, 13 April 2021 (UTC) p.s. TimothyPilgrim, your second YouTube link seem to be to a BBC copyvio.

Here's a more in-depth explanation of his lodge affiliation. (Freemasonry Today) TimothyPilgrim (talk) 18:22, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2021

Please add the category Category:Burials at St George's Chapel, Windsor Castle. 2601:241:300:B610:70AD:85D:BF55:315 (talk) 03:39, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

•  Done--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 06:11, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

St George's House (Windsor Castle)

Fellow Wikipedians, The College of St George is based at St George's House in the precinct of St George's Chapel, Windsor Castle and hosts numerous meetings for people with responsibilities in the world of business, education, the Church and the third sector at the residential facility. The idea to hold dialogues to promote "wisdom" was born in 1966 when Prince Philip met with the then Dean of St George's Chapel and they set up a charitable trust for the purpose. Twice I have included this fact in the text and twice an administrator has seen fit to erase it on account of primary sources. Apparently, the Charity Commission for England and Wales is a Primary source too! I'm afraid I neither have the time nor the desire to play ping pong over this. Could someone please take over this valuable insert? Thank you, --Po Mieczu (talk) 15:36, 21 May 2021 (UTC)