Talk:Wu Zetian

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Literary allusions

Can someone who knows the subject of the article find a better word for the casually misapplied 'schizophrenic'? Notreallydavid (talk) 00:29, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

I changed it to "contradictory". Kaldari (talk) 14:38, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Combining sentences

@Friend505: Combining small sentences into longer sentences may seem like an improvement, but research has consistently shown that sentence length is strongly tied to reader comprehension.[1][2][3] According to research by the American Press Institute:

• With average sentences of 8 words or less, readers understood 100% of the information.
• At 14 words, they understood 90% of the information.
• At 43 words, they understood less than 10%.

So even though short sentences may seem awkward, they dramatically increase the chances that our readers will understand the content. Kaldari (talk) 14:31, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, but it seems repetitive, since it has already talked about the Wu family at that point. Thank you. Friend505 (talk) 20:09, 4 August 2020 (UTC)|Template:Vital article

Posthumous name

Tianhou is a "posthumous name". It is still my strong opinion that it qualifies. It was used, yes, in her lifetime (specifically, during the reign of her husband Emperor Gaozong) but not after during the reigns of her sons or herself. It was later, during the reign of her grandson Xuanzong that it was again used -- as the official way to address her, rather than Zetiandasheng Huanghou. That lasted through the rest of Tang Dynasty. I think it qualifies as a posthumous name. Please elaborate on why you disagree. --Nlu 19:26, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

As can be checked here and here, Tianhou (天后) was the posthumous name of Empress Wu Zetian only between July 28, 710 (景云元年六月丁未) and November 13, 710 (景云元年十月乙未). Her posthumous name then changed many times, until eventually in 749 (天宝八载) the final version of her posthumous name was set as Empress Zetian Shunsheng (則天順聖皇后), which is the posthumous name that appears in the infobox. So please do not change that again. Hardouin 19:38, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't believe you are reading those passages correctly. Those refer to how she would be addressed in the temple with her husband -- not how she would be addressed in general. There were references throughout the rest of Tang dynasty documents of her as Tianhou -- not as Zetian Shunsheng Huanghou. I do not dispute your chronology. What I do dispute is the overly narrow definition of what a "posthumous name" is; if Tianhou is not considered a posthumous name, why was it used throughout the rest of Tang Dynasty as a way of referring to her? --Nlu 19:52, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Just to add to that: see [4] (reference to Tianhou in Biography 57 of Xintangshu -- during Emperor Xuanzong's time; Biography 67 of Xintangshu); [5] (Biography 77 -- the reference to which in Zizhi Tongjian was what alerted me to this usage in the first place), [6] (Biography 88; Biography 99). Your assertion that Tianhou is not a "posthumous name" because it is not the one used for official long-term title would mean that, for example, Wendi is not a "posthumous name" for Emperor Wen of Han -- because the official long-term title is Xiaowen Huangdi. I disagree strongly. --Nlu 20:04, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I think the problem here is that you are confusing two things in English: a posthumous name on the one hand, and a style on the other hand. A posthumous name was a formal name that appeared in the temple of the ancestors, and which was also used by historians in formal circumstances. So a posthumous name was never meant to be used by people living in imperial China. Instead people used styles, for instance the ruling emperor could be called huangshang (皇上), a retired emperor could be referred as taishanghuang (太上皇), and for dead emperors there were many ways to refer to them, and the way to refer to them changed along Chinese history. Remember that in ancient societies, people almost never referred to important people using their real name, or even their official name. Instead, they used styles. For example, the brother of King Louis XIV of France was Philippe, duc d'Orléans, but nobody called him "Philippe", and nobody even called him "duc d'Orléans". Instead, he was refered to by his style: "Monsieur". It doesn't mean "Monsieur" was a posthumous name. Closer to us, Empress Cixi was referred to by her style laofoye (老佛爷). It doesn't mean laofoye is her posthumous name. I think it is very important to understand that it is not because a name is used after the death of the person that it is automatically a posthumous name. Styles can be used long after the person is dead, yet they are not posthumous names.

In the case of Tianhou, it is obviously a style, whose litteral meaning is "Heavenly Empress". It was used after Wu Zetian's death, as the biographies that you linked are showing, but it doesn't mean that because it was used after her death it was a posthumous name. In the infoboxes of emperors and empresses, we only list official posthumous and temple names. We don't list styles. The reason for that is because styles changed a lot over time, an emperor or an empress could have many styles during their life, and after, depending on fashion, so it is too shaky ground to include in the infoboxes.

On the other hand, you could mention the style Tianhou inside the article if you want. The story behind it is very interesting. When Wu Zetian became in control of her husband Emperor Gaozong in the 660s, she wanted to show her power to all, and so she managed to convince her weak husband to change her and his title. So it was decreed that the title (style) of the emperor would be changed from huangdi (皇帝, i.e. "Emperor") to tianhuang (天皇, i.e "Heavenly Emperor"), and the title (style) of the empress would be changed from huanghou (皇后, i.e "Empress") to tianhou (天后, i.e. "Heavenly Empress). This shocked a lot Confucian officials, because it was placing the emperor and the empress above their ancestors, who were only huangdi and huanghou. Later after Wu Zetian's reign these titles were reverted to the traditional huangdi ("emperor") and huanghou ("empress"), so that there is only one Tianhou in Chinese history, Wu Zetian. Because this title of Tianhou was unprecedented, I believe this is the reason why she was referred to as Tianhou after her death. There could be no ambiguity when using this name. We can add all that in the article if you want. The exact date when the titles were changed can be found in the Book of Tang.

Now an interesting codicile is this: at the time when the titles tianhuang and tiandi were given to the emperor and the empress, Japan was opening itself to Chinese culture. The ruler of Japan thought that it would be improper for him to be just an "emperor", so he had to be a "Heavenly Emperor" like the husband of Wu Zetian. Later in China this title "Heavenly Emperor" was abandonned as I said, but not in Japan, so today the emperor of Japan is still known as tianhuang, pronounced tenno (天皇) in Japanese. We can also add this if you want. Hope this makes things clear. Hardouin 21:28, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I checked in the Book of Tang, and I found the date when the titles tianhuang and tianhou were decreed: September 20, 674 (上元元年八月壬辰). Hardouin 21:46, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Guilt-ridden Nightmares?

The article states, "Empress Wang and Consort Xiao were killed on orders by the new Empress Wu. After their deaths, Empress Wu was often haunted by them in her dreams." Since there's no citations for this I assume it just vandalism and should be removed but if there is any evidence that she had guilt-ridden nightmares, kinda like that Macbeth chap, we can keep it if someone can provide the citations. Cheers! Xenomorph erotica (talk) 19:03, 17 July 2021 (UTC)