Talk:Acupuncture/Archive 33

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Semi-protected edit request on 6 March 2020

This page is not doing service to the public by suggesting that Acupuncture is "quackery". If Western Medicine does not understand or do not rely on their methods of assessing a therapy they call it quack. My suggestion is that to remove the links where is called quackery and not opinions of the authors of this page. Rheptulla (talk) 11:52, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

As a wholistic practitioner, I second this. Acupuncture should not be lumped in with traditional Western medicine and thus informed as quackery. This puts the dominant culture over another and holds that it is not as important, functional or effective as traditional medicine but, that is simply not true. Calling it quackery is a form of white supremacy. I suggest a lens of viewing acupuncture of a whole different system with terminology that exists outside of the Western Medicine Hegemony. Thus not accusing those practicing of being quacks but, rather that their practice is made creditable by the millenia it's been in use and those who still use it today that find it beneficial. Science does not need to catch up to ancient practices and lineages to make it a valid treatment option for anyone.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.236.153.93 (talk • contribs)

IP, I suggest that you read (in no particular order): Confirmation bias, Appeal to antiquity, Straw man argument, Poisoning the well. Also, if you have a specific change to the article in mind, please propose it in the form of "Please change X to Y" or "Please add X between Y and Z" followed by the source(s) to use to backup the change. --McSly (talk) 13:31, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:15, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Not to mention this has been discussed ad nauseam. There are several reasons why acupuncture's practice is quackery. The cited sources are reliable and the characterization is accurate. It's not about not understanding. Acupuncture has been thoroughly studied. It just doesn't work more effectively than a placebo and is based on prescientific ideas that are false. That's all. This page is not about the editors' opinions. It's about what reliable sources say-and that's what the page reflects (what mainstream science and the consensus say). TylerDurden8823 (talk) 00:42, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

What World Health Organization (WHO) says about Acupuncture ? Whether they recommend or not? Please mention in the article Debabrata Bag (talk) 07:26, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

The websites of the US NIH, Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins university, and several other major organizations (that clearly have no horse in this race) all broadly agree that acupuncture is possibly beneficial and at worst harmless, and that it is a legitimate remedy to seek for purposes such as pain-relief. This Wikipedia article is grossly exaggerated in its use of language (quackery??? pseudoscience???) and appears to be written by someone with an agenda.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.184.63.162 (talk • contribs) 18:35, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Yeah... Mayo Clinic and Johns Hopkins provide acupuncture services. NIH != NCCIH, and WHO's reports on the effectiveness of acupuncture were written by a TCM practitioner who based on positive results from studies that other meta-analyses considered so horrible no conclusions could be drawn. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:06, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Well most hospitals provide vaccines, and most doctors believe vaccines are good; therefore vaccines must be bad, because hospitals just want to sell you vaccines? I don't understand your logic.

In any case, regardless of who has a horse in which race, Wikipedia must respect the broad consensus of the relevant scientific or medical community, and in this case, it is a fact that the general opinion on acupuncture of most medical researchers, while certainly not entirely positive, is not nearly as negative as the tone of this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Topotrivl (talk • contribs) 06:06, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I do not know where you got that... result of an opinion poll among "medical researchers"? - but voting is not how science is done. Science is about the results of research, not about opinions. We reflect that. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:54, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, science is about results, but results must be interpreted. Doing even the most basic literature review will show that the statement "doctors are ambiguous as to whether acupuncture works" is a fact, just like the statement "most physicists agree general relativity is true" is a fact. You might go on and say "it's not about what physicists think, blah blah blah", but it doesn't make it any less ludicrous for a wikipedia article to doubt the validity of general relativity. The purpose of wikipedia is not to do original research. As far as encyclopedias go, the general state of the academic literature on a certain topic is what should be summarized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Topotrivl (talk • contribs) 07:19, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Topotrivl, yes, former medical students are indeed ambiguous. Science, however, is not. There are no such things as meridians, the effects of acupuncture are measurable only in self-reported subjective symptoms, it doesn't matter where you put the needles, or whether you even insert them at all, and the more robust the trial design, the smaller the perceived effect. In other words, it's a theatrical placebo, but one that's quite resistant to ultimate refutation due to the difficulties of blinding. Guy (help!) 11:42, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Did you just equate the evidence for relativity with the evidence for acupuncture? That is crazy. You cannot make the facts disappear by juggling them together with other facts about a different subject.

Interpreting the evidence against acupuncture is not that difficult. But the opinions of acupuncture believers are not based on the scientific evidence, they are based on their superstitious interpretations of anecdotes. As I already said, science and we disregard opinions. --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:58, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

...this would be a great conversation to have, if this were reddit. But what you say is the opinion of wikipedia editors, not doctors or medical researchers. The existing studies published on acupuncture are ambiguous, bot nowhere near as negative as this article. It's not about what you think, or even "know" to be true, it's about what the experts think, and what is written in the literature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Topotrivl (talk • contribs) 15:35, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Come back when you find a reliable scientific secondary source that agrees with you. Bye! --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:37, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Do I really need to google for you? Here's a start.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3996195/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5708980/ ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1743552/ https://academic.oup.com/bjaed/article/7/4/135/466586 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2156587215598422 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2005290115001545

Have fun reading! In the meantime, I sincerely hope you can learn how to do research.

From first link given "... the number of clinical trials examining the efficacy of acupuncture in the treatment of psychogenic disorders has increased. However, the quality of the studies has been relatively poor and the sample sizes insufficient". People who don't read conclusions shouldn't throw stones. GraemeLeggett (talk) 22:32, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

GraemeLeggett, and as with most quack remedies the positive studies are conducted by advocates, the more robust the study design the less effect is seen, most studies rely on self-reported subjective measurements, and the elephant in the room - lack of any remotely plausible mechanism of action - is assiduously waved away.

What we know by now is that it doesn't matter where you put the needles, or even whether you insert them at all. Any benefits of acupuncture appear to be down to the theatre of it. Guy (help!) 23:47, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Second link given says as a conclusion "The conclusion of our study will provide updated evidence to judge whether acupuncture is an effective intervention for patients suffered from chronic pain with depression."

It seems the study is not finished yet. Or if it is finished, the results were not published.

The IP has obviously not checked whether any of the links contains evidence for acupuncture. They just copied the links from Google.

So, again: Come back when you find a reliable scientific secondary source that agrees with you. Bye! --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:50, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Whoops, it is not an IP, it's a user who forgot to sign. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:52, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I gave you my sources. In any case, why should the burden of proof on the one trying to show that acupuncture is NOT quackery? The opinion of the experts (doctors) is clear. It is YOU Wikipedians who make claims to the contrary. *In general this article is an unprecedented case of Wikipedia writers ignoring the position of the established experts and falsely presenting their own views as the accepted standard.*

I'm not gonna continue this futile fight. Maybe we can have a real discussion someday when you can get over your grudges. Seriously, Wikipedia can be so messed up sometimes. Bye! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Topotrivl (talk • contribs) 06:12, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

That soapbox of yours is quite high there sport. In fact, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, and the evidence supporting acupuncture doesn't even hit the "ordinary" level. I hate to break the news to you, but you're making the assertions, so it's you're responsibility, in accordance with just about everything that makes Wikipedia work, to provide verifiable and reliable evidence to support those assertions. In fact, Wikipedia articles ought to be written without emotion, just evidence. Making strange accusations isn't the way to be involved. I know it's frustrating to not have evidence to support your claims, but that's the way things are with pseudosciences like acupuncture. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 06:21, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

You gave us reliable secondary sources alright. But they do not say what you claim they say. As you would know - if you had read, comprehended and accepted our responses.

You demonstrate in a wonderful way how pseudoscience proponents argue: first claim to have evidence, then, when the "evidence" turns out to be insufficient, shift the burden of proof. (Why didn't you know that you don't need evidence when you thought you had evidence?)

Another tactic would have been to claim that the scientific method is not able to test acupuncture. That's how homeopaths do it: if homeopathy fails to pass scientific tests, they say science is at fault for failing to find evidence for homeopathy. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:41, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

The burden of proof is always on the proponents of a suggested therapy, not the other way around, friend. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 07:14, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

placebo effects of acupuncture

There was a new systematic review published recently that assessed the contribution of contextual effects to the treatment efficacy of acupuncture for knee arthritis. I thought it might be interesting for this article, but not sure where to best use it.

The systematic review found that about 61% of the total treatment effect of acupuncture for knee osteoarthritis could be explained by contextual effects such as the placebo effect. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32416220/ 2001:56A:75CE:1700:55DB:55E6:C439:7786 (talk) 03:58, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Which means that 40% is caused by active healing properties specific to acupuncture. But don't tell the biased editors here, they have a consensus inside their own heads that acupuncture is 100% useless and ignore all mounting evidence to the contrary180.150.68.232 (talk) 23:33, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Not totally useless, it is a theatrical placebo which might make some people more relaxed. But it does not heal any real disease. For somebody with PTSS it could be very hard to relax, so, if acupuncture helps him/her relax, who am I to say that it shouldn't be used? But, you see, there is nothing special about acupuncture, a lot of medically bogus therapies can help some people relax. There is no qi in reiki, but if it helps one relax, why it shouldn't be used? Tgeorgescu (talk) 04:15, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 July 2020

The first paragraph is extremely biased and not neutral. Wikipedia is supposed to present neutral, factual content, not personal biases. The paragraph states: "Acupuncture is a pseudoscience[5][6] because the theories and practices of TCM are not based on scientific knowledge, and it has been characterized as quackery.[7]" This page needs to be edited for bias. Calling acupuncture "quackery" is just wrong. Some of the sources cited are just opinions. There are hundreds of scientifically based studies available (PubMed is a good source) showing proven benefits of acupuncture and Chinese medicine. Additionally, to say that the medicine used predominantly in the country of China is quackery and has no scientific basis in not only factually incorrect, it's racist. It looks like someone who is anti-acupuncture came through recently and changed this page. The sidebar also states this this is a part of a series on fringe medicine and pseudo-medicine. At the bottom of the sidebar is the heading "conspiracy theories." I don't know how acupuncture is a conspiracy theory. It's a system of medicine used widely in hospitals in China. This page has a lot of problems. Wheresmyjesusfish (talk) 04:52, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done You should read WP:MEDRS, and probably this talk page archive. The article hasn't been suddenly changed by an anti-acupuncture editor, it has been built up over years through consensus to reflect what the best sources say about the subject. You have mentioned no sources here to support any change. GirthSummit _(blether) 05:02, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

The consensus is in your own head, not in the literature. No one can view the fierce debate on this page and claim that it represents "consensus". This whole article is a total dumpster fire and should be deleted if you're not going to treat the topic fairly and even-handedly.180.150.68.232 (talk) 23:35, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

See WP:PROFRINGE. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:55, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

With respect George, you lack self-awareness. Belief that acupuncture is a psuedoscience is a fringe belief. Many also believe it is a Eurocentric, colonialist, white supremacist belief as well. Billions of melanated folks from China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan, and dozens of other places consider it to be a mainstream practice. A few thousand white "skeptics" may disagree, but they really are far out on the fringe.180.150.68.232 (talk) 05:06, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Maybe, but we rely on wp:rs not wp:blokedownthepub.Slatersteven (talk) 12:09, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

See WP:CHOPSY. Wikipedia is all about CHOPSY-supremacism, it was never meant as a reflection of popular opinion. Wikipedia chose for mainstream science. You may dislike that choice, but it is normative for this website. For this website TCM is Maoist hypocrisy/dogmatism, with a sauce of Ancient mystical rants. Confessing that anesthesia by acupuncture does not work got one sent to the labor camp for being counterrevolutionary. Simon says Kill the sparrows! People do a lot of nonsensical stuff if the Big Brother says they must. Make no illusions: for this website a mighty fortress is mainstream science. You won't prevail here so mind your own business and go to Conservapedia or New World Encyclopedia. Oh, my, I'm surprised that Conservapedia did not embrace such woo.

Just for you to ponder: the effectiveness of acupuncture has nothing to do with race or skin color. It's pathetic nonsense that racism has anything to do with acupuncture failing by all objective measurements. Wow: objective knowledge is racism in disguise. Gee, why didn't I think about that earlier? Don't drink the postmodernist Kool-Aid. Do you know why every country will bow down to objective knowledge? Richard Dawkins - "Science. It works, Bitches." on YouTube. World's lingua franca isn't English, but scientific naturalism. Rupert Sheldrake has a TEDx jeremiad about it. Any country which bans objective knowledge will end up bankrupt. They may still play fast and loose with humanities, but if they do that with hard sciences they hammer nails in their own coffin. If they do that with medical science, they see their own people as expendable. Some inane politicians might be fooling themselves about that, but for Mao it was an aware choice to promote what he knew is woo. The reality was that China could not afford large-scale, Western-style medical care. So Mao played a cynical trick upon his own subjects. He had more power over them than previous emperors.

In short: we run this website, we believe in WP:GOODBIAS. Don't like it? Then take your business elsewhere. Your sole remedy is to stop using this website.

These being said, I would not touch the article abortion with a ten feet pole, precisely because of what I said above. I do not wish to become a troll. Tgeorgescu (talk) 13:24, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Unlike folklore, religion, etc., Ayurveda promotes itself as scientific. If Ayurveda was merely a historical system not practiced today, à la "humors", then we could just classify it as "not science" or "protoscience". However, unlike folklore, religion, etc., Ayurveda is currently presented as a science -- see, for example, the multiple types of doctoral degrees offered in "vedic microbiology". In fact, it is extremely similar to Lysenkoism: short-sighted, poorly-considered programs by the government led to a humanitarian crisis (in the USSR, the famine; in India, a dramatic shortage of health care providers and infrastructure). In an attempt to combat (or at least appear to combat) this crisis and to boost nationalistic morale (i.e. redirect despair and criticism away from the ruling elite), the government heavily propagandizes a home-grown system of "science" with enormously-exaggerated validity, efficacy, scope, and benefit that can replace/supplement "foreign" (Western) methods. Lysenko was the Soviet hero who was supposed to rescue the peasants from famine; a revitalized Ayurveda will be the savior of Indian health care. Neither uses rigorous evidence-based approaches; both are rooted in a deprecated conceptualization of the physical world; both characterize opposition as an attack on their cultural ideology/identity and suppress negative reports. Both are examples of institutionalized pseudoscience. JoelleJay (talk) 00:45, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Mutatis mutandis, the same can be said about acupuncture. Evidence-based medicine still is extremely expensive for those countries. And somebody has to pay the bill. So they serve the poor, the uneducated and the superstitious with fake treatments based upon fake medical science. Tgeorgescu (talk) 08:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Editorializing

1. It were editorializing if it weren't Edzard Ernst's opinion, but just the opinion of a Wikipedian;
2. By inconsistent results we mean: it heals the pain in arms but not in feet, or something like that, which makes the whole concept owing to doubt. Tgeorgescu (talk) 06:30, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Recent edits

Aaronlife You're stepping in a heavily, heavily contentious area, covered by WP:ARBPS and discretionary sanctions. About your sources: healthcmi.com is a website of apologetics, not WP:SCHOLARSHIP, so it is bunk as a WP:RS. The second source, while the journal is indeed indexed for MEDLINE, it is a primary study. According to WP:MEDRS, WP:PRIMARY studies are unacceptable for medical claims inside Wikipedia. Conclusion: both of you sources have been rejected, neither is reliable for making medical claims inside Wikipedia. And horror of all horrors, you have stated your conclusion in the voice of Wikipedia instead of employing WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV.

If you would like to edit war about your addition, learn that WP:AE is just around the corner, the formality of giving you an alert of discretionary sanctions has already been fulfilled. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:05, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

not interested in a war, what about secondary sources/reviews of primary sources, such as this: These studies suggest that meridians/acupoints have biophysical characteristics which are different from nonacupuncture points.

I would also like to add that studies in animals between genuine and sham acupuncture have produced results, as well, such as the Rutger's University study you can read about, seconarily, here: Scientific American How can I add that without people freaking out who are opposed to acupuncture study results that suggest acupuncture works?Aaronlife (talk) 17:27, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Aaronlife, the journal Evidence-Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine is far from an uncontroversial choice of source to use. The small (20 subjects) primary study in mice doesn't really tell us much - did it go anywhere, were the findings confirmed by other studies? You'll note that the study received some significant criticism in that same Scientific American article too - I wouldn't support adding anything to the article based either of these sources. GirthSummit _(blether) 17:50, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Aaronlife, Here's what we know about acupuncture:

• It doesn't matter where you put the needles
• It doesn't matter whether you insert them or not
• It only "works" on self-reported subjective symptoms that have a strong psychosomatic component (e.g. nausea)
• It is a hugely lucrative industry
• It was largely invented by Mao Zedong
• It is primarily supported by studies from China, which never find a negative result for anything, however self-evidently bogus

In short, it's a bust, and the continued cottage industry of small-scale "studies" by True Believers saying the same old things are precisely analogous to the last gasps of homeopathy. Guy (help! - typo?) 18:31, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Homeopathy is gasping? I hope you're right. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 00:50, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Introduction: weak phrase

Acupuncture is a pseudoscience because the theories and practices of TCM are not based on scientific knowledge, [...] The 'because' makes it seem like it's an argument, but 'Not being based on scientific knowledge' is basically the definition of pseudoscience, rendering it circular reasoning (fallacy). Just seems like some hot air to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheOnlyRealEditor (talk • contribs) 16:28, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Around here we don't reason anything, we simply abstract WP:MEDRS. That's the difference. We're not the ones making the call, we are simply the scribes of mainstream scientists. Whatever we write here, it isn't our own finding or our own thinking. Tgeorgescu (talk) 07:11, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

But the "because" is not in the source given (Quackwatch). So, someone did "make the call" instead of being a scribe. TheOnlyRealEditor is right that the way it is, that sentence is neither logical nor written well. I suggest a change along these lines: Acupuncture is a pseudoscience. Its theories and practices are based on primitive, pre-scientific ideas that have no relation to current scientific knowledge --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:39, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

I suggest to drop "because". Put a comma instead. Retimuko (talk) 19:25, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 January 2021

This article is unambiguously biased. It refers to acupuncture as a pseudoscience, most major medical schools now have a center dedicated to integration of eastern/western medicine. https://osher.ucsf.edu/patient-care/clinical-specialties/acupuncture-and-integrative-chinese-medicine https://cewm.med.ucla.edu/education/ https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/articles/2011/04/12/medical-schools-embrace-alternative-medicine

This article fails to visit both perspectives, including the millions of patients that have benefited from acupuncture and other forms of traditional Chinese medicine. It is unfair to the health and safety of the general population to keep it published in its current format, it needs an unbiased review at the very least from parties of both eastern medicine and western medical professionals that do not strongly support eastern practices. It should not exclusively and disproportionally represent a singular perspective as it currently does. For instance, it fails to mention the major news from 2020 that medicare now accepts acupuncture. How can you still be categorizing this as a pseudoscience? This is possibly the most biased mainstream article in wikipedia. On January 21, 2020, the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) announced that they would cover acupuncture services to help treat chronic lower back pain. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/does-medicare-cover-acupuncture https://www.forbes.com/sites/robinseatonjefferson/2020/01/24/medicare-will-now-pay-for-acupuncture-in-part-due-to-opioid-abuse/?sh=1fc6e420378a Logical hombre (talk) 07:58, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

You haven't suggested a specific change that you think these sources might support. Looking at your general comments however, Id observe that none of these sources support an argument that the nature of acupuncture isn't pseudoscientific, or indeed the notion that millions of patients have benefited from acupuncture or any other form of TCM. What they might be used to support is an assertion that it is taught in medical schools, and that in the US it can be paid for with Medicare (although that WP:FORBESCON source isn't reliable). To assume from either of those that acupuncture is a valid treatment, or is scientifically valid, is WP:OR. There is a market for acupuncture, and there is a market for training in delivering acupuncture, and some schools are willing to service that market, and medicare is prepared to help people access acupuncture. None of this speaks against the sources describing it as pseudoscience, none of it says anything about serious scientific treatment or about efficacy. (I mean, that UCSF website is talking about an energy called qi as if it is a real thing that exists.) GirthSummit _(blether) 08:45, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I suggest the edit of removing the entire, unnecessary, uneducated and biased sentence: “ Acupuncture is a pseudoscience,[5][6] the theories and practices of TCM are not based on scientific knowledge, and it has been characterized as quackery.” YourParents (talk) 21:30, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Reliable sources support the fact that acupuncture is a pseudoscience. If you have citations that meet the standards of WP:MEDRS, I'm sure we'd consider a change. Your opinion does not count for anything on Wikipedia. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 06:22, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 January 2021

Acupuncture is an established profession across the globe and has been proven again and again to be an extremely safe and effective procedure. Calling it quackery and a pseudoscience is inaccurate and offensive. 146.115.166.102 (talk) 18:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done You do not make the call. Wikipedia obeys WP:MEDRS and WP:ARBPS. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:20, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

The fact that practicing acupuncture is an established profession doesn't mean that it isn't one based on pseudoscience and it doesn't mean that it's effective. Labeling acupuncture as pseudoscience may offend some people, particularly its practitioners, but Wikipedia reflects what the high-quality reliable sources say. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 11:01, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Do these sources count as reliable evidence in support of acupuncture's medical effects?

@SkepticalRaptor:@TylerDurden8823: I have found some relatively reliable sources that support the medicinal effects of acupuncture.

• Penn Medicine (University of Pennsylvania): https://www.pennmedicine.org/updates/blogs/health-and-wellness/2017/march/acupuncture - article from the oldest medical school in the U.S. strongly supports acupuncture
• Johns Hopkins Medicine (Johns Hopkins University): https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/acupuncture - "studies have shown that acupuncture is effective for a variety of conditions."
• WebMD (Reviewed by MD, quotes UCLA): https://www.webmd.com/pain-management/features/acupuncture-pain-killer
• NCCIH (part of the National Institute of Health): https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-in-depth - government institution states that acupuncture can help manage certain pain conditions
• Harvard Health (Harvard University): https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/relieving-pain-with-acupuncture - while the article says that effects of acupuncture are mixed, it concedes that some credible studies do support acupuncture as a legitimate medical practice.
• NPR (reporting on US Army): https://www.npr.org/2011/04/10/134421473/weight-of-war-soldiers-heavy-gear-packs-on-pain#:~:text=Soldiers%20and%20Marines%20in%20Iraq,body%20armor%2C%20weapons%20and%20batteries - that the world's most powerful military is now practicing acupuncture on some level should offer an amount of supporting credibility to the practice.

I believe in light of these articles from credible institutions, the previous posters were right about that sentence on the validity of acupuncture being way too harsh. Shotgunscoop (talk) 02:10, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

No. We already knew that there are more-or-less-scientific publications in favor of it and others against it. What counts here are only secondary publications that have a look at the quality of the best of them and summarize the total situation based on that. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:05, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

@Hob Gadling: I'm far from an expert on this subject, but WP:MEDRS affirms the validity of citing medical guidelines and position statements from important medical institutions and government institutions such as the NIH. Given that the NIH and other credible medical organizations have released position statements in favor of the practice of acupuncture, or at least have admitted the existence of evidence for both sides, the characterization of acupuncture as "quackery" is undermining either the authority of the NIH and Penn Medicine and etc. or Wikipedia, and I don't think it fits. Shotgunscoop (talk) 11:44, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Those naughty legislaters in the US have put the inmates in charge of the asylum at NIH, so the woosters are getting a free hand to write anything they want and call it science. Please dont make the mistake of thinking that USian legislaters can legislate what makes up real scientific investigation. Thanks. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 12:07, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

The NCCIH is the quackery branch of the NIH. It exists because quackery-friendly politicians have invented it, and it is not a reliable source. Search the archives of this Talk page for "NCCIH" and you will find that this has been discussed in archive 29, 30, 32 and 33. Actually, everything you said above has already been discussed somewhere in the archives, and if you want to get closer to becoming an expert on the subject, you could start by looking through them.

Generally, if a Talk page has archives, looking at them before you repeat the same request that has been discussed there ad nauseum is a good idea. --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:10, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Hob is less cynical than myself, and a really nice person. They said what I said, but far more nicely. Thanks Hob. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 12:36, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

In other words, you both are appealing to (or maybe inventing your own, IDK) CONSPIRACY THEORIES in order to label reliable sources "quackery" because you just don't like it. (or maybe you have conflicts of interests, I don't know - if you did, and I am not saying you do, but if you did I would hope you would disclose them and then recuse yourselves from any discussions. as for myself, I hereby affirm I am not an acupuncturist, nor am I friends or family with any, nor do I take money from any acupuncturists or anyone affiliated with them. oh, and to clarify, on this matter I would more or less consider anyone in the field of western medicine to have a conflict of interest.). good day to you. Firejuggler86 (talk) 01:29, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

To be a conspiracy theory, something needs to have no evidence for it. Read Tom Harkin, Berkley Bedell and NCCIH (which, unfortunately, says nothing about its foundation, except that Harkin was its patron). People who are prone to belief in conspiracy theories (for example, those who, when contradicted, do not think "maybe I am wrong" but "maybe the person who contradicts me is paid for contradicting me") often do not understand the difference.

If I had a conflict of interest, I had declared it 15 years ago when I started editing Wikipedia pages about pseudoscientific bullshit. But if you insist on hearing it: no, I have no financial interest in opposing pseudoscientific bullshit.

Regarding your own non-existing conflict of interest: I am not interested. My view is that who is right and who is wrong can be determined by the quality of their reasoning, not by hypothesizing external financial motivation.

About you rejecting any arguments coming from anybody with medical expertise (BTW, medicine does not have a direction, such as "West"): we are familiar with that immunization strategy. It is the same excuse climate change deniers use for rejecting evidence they do not like (the evidence comes from climatologists, and all climatologists are corrupt, so you can just ignore the evidence). Since Wikipedia uses sources written by medical doctors, I guess you should just leave because there is absolutely no chance you will be able to change that. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:36, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

@Hob Gadling:, those ARE secondary sources, are they not?? Or is the issue that you have with them that they do not (according to you) have a look at the quality of the best of them and summarize the total situation based on that? If that be what you meant, that is tantamount to saying "those aren't reliable sources because I don't agree with their conclusions; in other words, because WP:IDONTLIKEIT." and if that's so, that is a shameful thing and a dishonest for any wiki editor to push. Editors do not get to decide which reloable secondary sources "have a look at the quality of the best of them and summarize the total situation based on that" and are therefore acceptable. Firejuggler86 (talk) 01:19, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

• There's 2 problems I see, here.

First, those sources aren't as good as most of the sources used in this article. The first is an info-page about acupuncture that ends with a call for the reader to "schedule an appointment". That's not a reliable source, at all. It's ad-copy. The second one is also ad-copy. The third is okay as a source, but only for the opinion of the practicing physician writing it. It's not a statement on the consensus, nor anything approaching a Cochrane review in quality. It's maybe useable in this article, but it'd likely be the sketchiest source used. Best to leave it out. Others have pointed out the problems with the third source. The fourth article ends with a different call to the reader; Buy our book! Again... Ad-copy. Final source is an NPR story on the Army using acupuncture. This is a great RS for the claim that the Army is using acupuncture. It does not imply (and we should not presume it implies) that acupuncture is effective. I would like to point out that, as an Army veteran myself, the Army has variously employed; psychics, monkeys, robots, dogs, cyborgs and astrology. I can personally assure you that they would be beside themselves with glee if someone offered them a dragon, and depending on which particular conspiracy theories you find most credible, and how credible you find them, they might well have employed a balrog or two, or maybe some lizardmen. Their endorsement of anything vaguely scientific carries about the same weight and much of the same character as my 6-year-old's toy preference.

The second problem is: even if each of these were a well-documented trial with a large sample size and rigorous testing standards, they are too few to make any significant impact in the balance of literature about this subject. The vast majority of studies have been inconclusive, many of the studies that support acupuncture have been flawed or suspect, the most well-structured studies have found no effect (beyond placebo), and the meta-reviews don't support the efficacy, either.

I don't see any point to including any of these (only the third and final links could even be used, in any case), because they won't let us say anything different than what the article already says. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:04, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Now it's my turn to say a vaguely similar thing to what Roxy said: MjolnirPants said it far more detailed than I could. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:36, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

No no no, he's a really short, ugly chap. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 10:43, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Hey! I may be ugly, but I ain't short. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 04:55, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• Acupuncture has no medical effects. It has been conclusivelyt demonstrated that it doesn't matter where you put the needles, or even whether you stick them in or not. Guy (help! - typo?) 17:41, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Statement of Bias

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I thought I should clearly state my bias in this article before helping contribute to it. I am a student currently working toward a doctorate in acupuncture, which means that I obviously have a specific point of view. I'll try to avoid pushing that POV and instead focus on identifying factual inaccuracies, outdated information, and points where there is not a neutral point of view, and refrain from making any contentious edits given my obvious bias, but I wanted to make sure I was upfront about that. It looks like there are some biased individuals on the other side of the debates as well so hopefully some truly neutral parties without any emotional ties or biases will help with some of that. I actually haven't edited anything on Wikipedia in so long that I don't even remember what my old username was, so my memory of the rules and regulations for things may be more than a little deficient at this point (but I'm going to avoid making any major edits myself anyway). I set up a new account and jumped in here after finding my way to Wikipedia while working on a homework assignment and saw the one-sided presentation of the topic in the opening paragraph and a couple of other sections of this article as well as a few minor inaccuracies and details that are out of date and thought I should contribute to making sure accurate information is being presented. I just wanted to be clear that I am studying this subject in school (and currently practicing as an intern in my clinical rotations) so that does give me a biased perspective, but also makes it easier for me to spot the little things that might be off or outdated. I'll try to go through the references and read the article in depth to identify any clear changes that need to be made in time, but I'm also a grad student who has already spent several more hours on this than I had budgeted in for this week. I did read through the Wikipedia standards on Neutral Point of View, Fringe Theories, and Identifying Reliable Sources (Medicine) along with some of the style manuals (such as words to watch).MasterStephenE (talk) 06:51, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

If you carry on about editors in this way, rather than on improving the article, this will not end well. -Roxy . wooF 07:03, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

To quote Guy from the section above: It has been conclusively demonstrated that it doesn't matter where you put the needles, or even whether you stick them in or not. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:18, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

This is an opinion, not a fact, that was a common consensus about a decade ago when small clinical trials did not have enough statistical weight to prove statistically significant differences. Even within the paper that published that opinion, it acknowledged that there is growing acceptance of this field and that there are proponents of it arguing that it is based in science. The fact that even opponents of it feel compelled to acknowledge that there are views on both sides suggests that this is not the quackery that many of the people in this talk page want to see it as. I have no issue with calling it a psuedoscience (even though it does not meet Wikipedia's own definition), and at the very least it certainly is well within the realm of fringe science. What I find concerning is the one sided approach in the research sections, and the one sided perspective offered in the opening paragraph which highlight a clear bias toward pushing the point of view that it is quackery and downplaying the fact that it is acknowledged as beneficial by the CDC, NIH, WHO, and respected medical schools and hospitals around the world and that at worst the Cochrane Reviews generally hold that results are inconclusive and more research is needed (a far cry from being conclusively demonstrated to be ineffective). It is important to note that this is a rapidly advancing field in terms of what the research says given that as much research has been done in the past 6 years than in the half a century before that, and much of the information in this page was consensus a decade or two ago, so I do think it is perfectly reasonable for people who do not directly work with this and regularly monitor the research on the topic to still hold the views from that time period, but at the same time, when that enters into the writing of what is attempting to be a respected encyclopedia, allowing word choice and selection of what is and isn't included to push that specific point of view to the exclusion of others is not ideal. I certainly wouldn't suggest striking it from the article completely as the controversy, the fact that Cochrane typically finds results to be inconclusive and that additional research and needed, and its place as fringe science while the mechanisms of action remain in the realm of hypothesis are all highly relevant to the topic. That being said, pushing the opponents of the subject as the one and only major view on the subject, using opinion based language such as quackery, and excluding views from proponents such as the CDC, NIH, WHO, and other major medical institutions that have issued guidance recommending the practice does not create anything close to a neutral point of view.MasterStephenE (talk) 19:01, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Welcome, and please make sure you also read WP:ADVOCACY, paying close attention to WP:FALSEBALANCE in particular. AlexEng^(TALK) 21:06, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing that, I had read the False Balance information, but had not seen the Advocacy page. I'll try to go back to that frequently during discussions on this page so that I can remind myself of those points. My goal is not to advocate for a specific point of view (quite the contrary as a scientist hoping to spend the bulk of my career in medical research I very much do want a neutral point of view that accurately represents both sides of the topic). The reason for me giving a lengthy introduction here in the talk page was so that others can help keep me accountable to the goal of helping make this page the best it can be and not simply push a specific point of view. That being said, this article currently does push a specific point a view, and I am hoping to at least highlight the counterarguments to those so that a better informed consensus and a more neutral point of view can be reached. Those who know me in daily life know that I also tend to argue both sides of an argument as I try to push things to the fair middle (which I acknowledge is not necessarily the halfway point between the two opinions, but due weight based on significance, support, and relevance). In the case of this page, the reputable proponents of the topic of the page should at least be getting a mention (such as the NIH), and currently they aren't, and the opponents of the topic should also be given a mention (or really at least a main section within the page) but should not be given exclusivity, especially when the general consensus on the topic is pretty mixed (see: Cochrane generally says the data is inconclusive and encourages more research, and most major medical institutions say that it has at least some benefit to patients, showing that proponents are at the very least not an insignificantly small minority). Overall this is going to be a difficult page to properly maintain given that research on the subject is expanding rapidly, and the consensus on the topic within the medical community is pretty rapidly changing as well, but it is important to at least acknowledge both the views of the proponents and the opponents and stick to a neutral, fact-based article that allows the readers to make up their own minds based on the information presented instead of just telling the reader in the opening paragraph what they should think.MasterStephenE (talk) 19:01, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

All of the TL:DR stuff above is just wasting your time unless you have reliable (read WP:MEDRS) sources that support your contentions. -Roxy . wooF 19:11, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

The reliable sources I have referred to, identified as ideal in WP:MEDRS, have already been listed elsewhere in the talk page and article. There was a whole section above where someone listed several sources that were guidelines or positions statements from national or international expert bodies, and several of the editors on this page sounded off denouncing each of those bodies as not good enough for one reason or another (though I will certainly second the sentiment that just because the military is trying something doesn't necessarily mean it is valid). The other source I referenced was Cochrane, which has also been linked to extensively in the article. These are the sources that WP:MEDRS specifically identifies as ideal sources. I could go into detail on RCTs as well, but those are specifically listed as not being ideal in MEDRS. At some point when I have some time I can try to go through and collect all the different sources and add them together in one place to make them easy to find, but nothing I have said comes from any sources other than ones that have already been cited in the talk page and article, with the exception of possibly the WHO's statement which can be found here: http://digicollection.org/hss/en/d/Js4926e/ . I am simply pointing out what has already been said and cited, which is that most of the major medical institutions support acupuncture as a therapy that at least has some benefit for some patients and that the research according to Cochrane simply says that more research is needed. It's a practice that is being actively researched with thousands of new peer-reviewed studies being published each year, which is a far cry from the quackery that this article claims it to be without even a mention of the many institutions who identify it as being beneficial. There are certainly individuals within the medical field who no doubt consider it to be quackery, and it obviously still has a lot to prove, but the consensus among major medical institutions is that it has some value and warrants continued use and study.MasterStephenE (talk) 18:43, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.