Talk:Tuʻi Tonga Empire

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A fact from Tuʻi Tonga Empire appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 5 October 2005. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Tu’i Tonga Empire was the most influential local empire in the history of Oceania?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2005/October.

Wikipedia

Untitled

Polynesian sails where not square but were triangular, in a delta shape.

An enlightening site. [1] Apparently from the article however, it does agree that majority opinion still holds Niue as part of the Tongan empire, and the great majority of the article is speculation, so I wouldn't suggest any changes to the article. But perhaps the opinion should be noted?12.220.94.199 01:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First Samoan-Tongan war

Dear 24.5.192.25, please show that the source of your chapter is coming from a reliable publication, otherwise it is to be removed. --Tauʻolunga 05:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

removed chapter as no source was given and any suggestions for it were removed. --Tauʻolunga 21:57, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vanuatu?

The website of the Commonwealth of Nations states that Vanuatu was "part of the Tongan Empire into the 14th century" [2]. I haven't added that to the article, because it seems... slightly odd, and I've never seen such a statement elsewhere. At most, I assume there may have been Tongan settlements in what is now Vanuatu, but if such a large area had actually been under control of the Tongan Empire, I think far more sources would have recorded it. Aridd (talk) 23:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ARTICLE

Why are you protecting this page when so many of your facts are unprovable and are therefore conjecture. Your article is inherently biased towards the Tongan hierarchy being focused and controlled from Samoa. If this were the case why could only Tongan boats navigate into Tonga and Samoa never have sent any successful naval force into Tonga. 203.211.88.244 (talk) 01:26, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The page is protected because one or more people were attempting to replace the content with a version which had no reliable sources. This version needs more sources, but at least it does have some. If you wish to improve it, I suggest you start by taking a paragraph and suggesting here how it should read, with references to reliable sources.-gadfium 02:34, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References regarding the wide academic acceptance of the existance of the Tu'i Tonga Empire

...and thus completely contradicting the opening paragraph, derived from this linked revision.

Clark, G., Burley, D. and Murray, T. 2008. Monumentality in the development of the Tongan maritime chiefdom. Antiquity 82(318): 994-1004.

... Tonga became the centre for a complex maritime chiefdom during the second millennium AD (Aswani & Graves 1989; Sand 1999; Petersen 2000; Neich 2006).

PETERSEN, G. 2000. Indigenous island empires: Yap and Tonga considered. Journal of Pacific History 35: 5-27.

Abstract
The indigenous social-political-economic spheres whose nexuses were located, respectively, in Yap and Tonga, and which included adjacent islands and archipelagoes, are frequently referred to as 'empires'. This work summarises and examines historical and ethnographic data on these two cases, and then compares them both with one another and with more general concepts of empire. While stressing that these instances only remotely resemble modern empires, it concludes that for broader comparative purposes the Yap and Tonga spheres can usefully be termed empires.

NEICH, R. 2006. Pacific voyaging after the exploration period, in K.R. Howe (ed.) Vaka Moana, voyages of the ancestors: the discovery and settlement of the Pacific: 198-245. Auckland: David Bateman. p230

Tongan Maritime 'Empire'

... Several have argued whether the term 'empire' is appropriate, usually concluding that the popular modern interpretation of 'empire' does not really fit in the Tongan case.

However, providing that the necessary qualifications are understood ... then 'empire' is probably the most convenient term. ...

Whatever it has been called, this relationship is very important as the only prehistoric Polynesian large-scale network of political and social relationships reaching beyond seperate archipelagos for which some degree of documentation is available. For archaeologists trying to explain the presence of artefacts of exotic materials such as the wide geographic distribution of Samoan adzes in prehistoric central Oceania, the Tongan maritime empire has been seen as a possible explanation.

Geraghty, P., 1994. Linguistic evidence for the Tongan empire. In T. Dutton and D.T. Tryon (eds), Language Contact and Change in the ustronesian World. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter, pp.236-39.

... The Tongans traditionally extended their influence overseas, even establishing sovereignty over other island groups, for example East 'Uvea, Rotuma, Futuna, Samoa and Niue, mainly for purposes of tribute ... Tongan governers were sent to overseas territories, for instance to Samoa in the fifteenth century, and before A.D. 1250 some of the Tui Tonga even had official
residences n Upolo and Savai'i. (Poulsen 1977: 24)
Such was the Tongan empire known to tradition, and currently widely accepted by scholars (e.g. Kirch 1984: 232-242; Bellwood 1987: 69). The purpose of this paper is to present linguistic data suggesting that prehistoric Tongan influence was much more extensive; though there is no evidence that tribute was involved, then at least one may talk of a "cultural empire" that included parts of Micronesia (Kiribati, Pohnpei), Vanuatu, and New Caledonia and the Loyalty Islands.

2008: Vol 21. University of Otago Studies in Prehistoric Anthropology. Recent Advances in the Archaeology of the Fiji/West-Polynesia Region. David J. Addison & Christophe Sand (editors) (full)

The Tongan Maritime Chiefdom
A conference on the Polynesian Homeland wouldn’t be complete without a discussion specifically dealing with the topic of the ‘Tongan maritime chiefdom’, its spread across the region and its wide socio-political influence. The Tu’i Tonga chiefdom on Tongatapu has clearly been the single most influential political centre in the region over the last 500 years (Burley 1998), with the sudden development across the Fiji/West-Polynesia region of multiple monumental constructions that can be studied through archaeology. The regional data from oral traditions allow a nearly historical understanding of some of the key events surrounding the influence of the Tongan maritime ‘empire’ on other archipelagos and islands in terms of politics, land tenure, and exchange of goods.

Hawaiki, Ancestral Polynesia: An Essay in Historical Anthropology by Patrick Vinton Kirch; Roger C. Green (2001)

Given the ethnohistoric evidence for the Tongan "maritime empire" one would predict the presence of Tongan loan words in the languages of other groups with whom the Tongans interacted; this is precisely the case (Clark 1979:264; Biggs 1980; Dye 1980:352; Marck 1999a:137-43). Indeed, with East 'Uvea, which was conquered and politically dominated by the Tongans for some centuries, extensive lexical change did occur, although Pawley (1967) could still determine convincingly that 'Uvean was fundamentally a Samoic language with a heavy Tongan overlay.

203.184.6.154 (talk) 12:05, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work on finding suitable sources. I've unprotected the article. Please make appropriate changes, citing these and similarly reputable sources.-gadfium 17:53, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thinking about making some big changes

I've been doing a lot of research on the "Tongan Empire," and I think this page could benefit from a drastic re-write. It's not that things on the page are wrong, but since this is obviously a controversial topic, I think many sides need to be presented equally (including the separation of powers between TT, TK, and TH -- I have sources that say it may not have been so amiable). The re-write I am planning would remove much of the un-cited information. I'd also like to change the title to something less controversial but not incorrect, like "Tonga Maritime Chiefdom." The article would better explain why defining the period as an "empire" is difficult, and I would draw upon Glenn Petersen to explain the many different viewpoints. I'll start working on drafts soon. Let me know what you think. JJManioke (talk) 05:58, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Did you make any progress on this? 74.133.11.132 (talk) 22:30, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Flag

Y'all know there is absolutely no chance that flag was used by the Tu'i Tonga Empire during its existence, right? It's so European and christian, and most of all, so modern. The Empire hasn't existed for half a millennium and certainly wasn't christian during its existence. Acolossus | Talk | Contributions 13:48, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, and have removed it from the article.-gadfium 18:57, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 25 August 2021

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Remote the part where it says, "With the decline of Samoa's Tui Manu'a Maritime empire, a new empire rose from the South". This has no proven fact. This a lie that Samoan's promote to save them embarrasment for being slaves to the Tui Tonga. This should be removed because it is misleading information. Samoa only fought for freedom after they ambushed the Tui Tonga during his birthday celebration in Samoa in 1555. This page is so misleading is so many ways. The part where it says "the Manu'a islands of Samoa were considered sacred by the early Tongan Kings" is also a lie. Tongan royal family are known for taking samoan women as sex slaves and concubines. They did not consider Samoa sacred. In fact, Samoan tattoos was a mark of slavery. Tattoos was used to mark slaves. This is why Tongan's do not have it and majority of Samoa practice it. Tattoo's was a practice from africa which carve and burn the skins of slaves to mark their tribe and which master they belong to.

Take off all the mentions of Tu'i Manu'a on this page because it is a lie. Samoa were governed and slaves to the Tui Tonga. Even in Samoa there a stories of when the Tui Tonga walked amongst the people of Samoa and the Samoan people had to carry his majesty's throne and his entourage on their shoulders as the Tui Tonga toured the islands of Samoa. 202.27.76.249 (talk) 22:45, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]