Talk:Gopher (protocol)

LOL

Jun 05 23:15:11 <dsf777b>	https://gitlab.com/SSS8555/acid - gopher client with page caching
Jun 05 23:15:50 <dsf777b>	https://gitlab.com/SSS8555/save_gopher_server Safe, secure and standalone portable gopher server with G6 extention
Jun 05 23:34:04 <zcrayfish>	What does the G6 do that gopher+ didn't do?
Jun 05 23:34:39 <zcrayfish>	Also are you a fan of THX1138? :)
Jun 05 23:37:32 <dsf777b>	1. requests for line ranges
Jun 05 23:37:32 <dsf777b>	2. CRC32 in requests to prevent sending files in cache
Jun 05 23:37:32 <dsf777b>	3. transfer size and error codes
Jun 05 23:37:32 <dsf777b>	5. user filling forms
Jun 05 23:37:32 <dsf777b>	6. realtime data streaming
Jun 05 23:37:32 <dsf777b>	7. TFTP support
Jun 05 23:38:27 <nm0i>	Looks like features. Features are bad.
Jun 05 23:39:13 <zcrayfish>	5 is a gopher+ feature.... 7 is for uploads?
Jun 05 23:39:20 <dsf777b>	everething optional and backward compatable
Jun 05 23:41:04 <dsf777b>	upload files not yet supported
Jun 05 23:41:30 <zcrayfish>	I don't understand the purpose of TFTP support in that case.
Jun 05 23:41:43 <dsf777b>	also gopher+ dont have any user filling forms
Jun 05 23:42:15 <dsf777b>	TFTP for low end clients and high load servers
Jun 05 23:47:52 <dsf777b>	https://gitlab.com/SSS8555
Jun 05 23:52:52 <zcrayfish>	no cgi support.... but forms support? 
Jun 05 23:53:46 <dsf777b>	it save all posts in configureted directory, a script can check the dir and perform some actions
Jun 05 23:55:09 <dsf777b>	have script to compile site for TFTP server
Jun 05 23:55:41 <dsf777b>	HTML to Gopher converter with links

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Edia4545m (talk • contribs) 04:11, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

External links modified

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Origins subpara: "The standard method of locating someone's email address "

The subparagraph "By 1992, the standard method of locating someone's e-mail address was to find their organization's CCSO nameserver entry in Gopher, and query the nameserver" has no citation to back up this statement (the cited link is merely to a newsgroup article on the subject). "The standard method" implies that this was widespread across all email users, and that it would be used by most people on the internet. As a user in 1992 I certainly never came across it, and unless I'm mistaken no-one I ever spoke to used this mechanism, and although it may have been "standard method" within a restricted set of users (those organisations that were using gopher already, say) that would definitely require the text receive some qualification. gwinkless (talk) 16:21, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

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S6

Am I the only one who considers the S6 G6 additions to the gophertypes section to be unnotable? They're not in the RFC or the gopher+ or gopherII proposals. As far as I can tell those additions are more or less reinventing many gopher+ features, and are only supported by one client (which is flagged as malware by Windows Defender) and one server... Neither of which are widely in use, and most references I see to them are from, to put it bluntly, spam on wikipedia and IRC. zcrayfish (talk) 13:45, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

More sources

The following sources might be useful:

1. Internet Publishing Handbook, Chapter 3: Gopher and Gopher+
2. The Web may have won, but Gopher tunnels on
3. Overbite Project brings Gopher protocol to Android

Anton.bersh (talk) 08:27, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Non-WWW software in web clients section.

Hello all, I have removed ACID, Gophie, and Lagrange from the list of web clients as they do not appear to be web clients at all. I think the article should have a native gopher client section in which these software would fit in. zcrayfish (talk) 03:36, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Gopher G6

Hello IP editor and Zcrayfish, you seem to be involved in a very slow edit war. I invite you to discuss your editorial opinions here. I see that IP editor for references provided only links to some GitLab project, which probably does not meet Wikipedia definition of reliable source. One reference actually just leads to a generic index page and not a specific documents which would support the statements. Since IP editor did not provide a sources, I agree with Zcrayfish until IP editor demonstrates good sources. Anton.bersh (talk) 09:37, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi there, I welcome input by the 36.37.192.0/20 user. As of the time of this posting (I didn't see your message until after I made my most recent revert) I will refrain from reverting changes from 36.37.192.0/20. I did make a mention of the situation above in the S6[sic, should have been G6] section above. 10:51, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

The sources pretty decent, reverting to Gopher G6 section Edia4545m (talk) 11:50, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Even of the source was decent (which I don't consider it to be great, as it's overly terse), the G6 extension does not seem to be notable, it seems to be supported by less gopher servers and client software than even Gopher+ (1 and 1 respectively at my last count)...

Additionally are there any publicly accessible servers? If this is something that is only accessible to 127.0.0.1 in a single homelab, it really fails to be notable. 12:07, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

https://pastebin.com/9c6L8yhA and many local industrial servers Edia4545m (talk) 12:42, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

The source that was added is a personal account on gitlab. It includes a fork of bucktooth (without required license), a simplistic python client that appears hard-coded to pull from a single server and is stuffed with an issue log of spam buzzwords by its own author. That's far from a decent source. Meanwhile this same project leader has been harrassing other gopher channels, such as IRC, and forums (kiwifarms links are banned from wikipedia or I'd include it here) with inflamatory speech. I agree with Zcrayfish that there's no basis that suggests G6 or S6 or whatever he's calling it today has any notable presence. Jamestomasino (talk) 16:01, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Lets fact check:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucktooth VS https://gitlab.com/SSS8555/save_gopher_server source code equal in 35 strings of 5000
• The "simplistic python client" is part of documentation for developers https://gitlab.com/SSS8555/python_g6_client
• "simplistic python client" not only G6 client available, here is https://gitlab.com/SSS8555/acid
• Issue log of spam made not by author
• Who it the "project leader" you dont like so mach? Is he bad?

Edia4545m (talk) 03:08, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Edia4545m I have added ":::" before your itemized list entries to fix indentation. Please use "Show preview" button to preview your comment and make sure it's easy to read. Thanks! Anton.bersh (talk) 07:16, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Bucktooth does not have any sources either, but let's discuss its notability separatelly on Talk:Bucktooth. Anton.bersh (talk) 07:26, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I do not see any sources about G6 or S6 which would meet Wikipedia definition of reliable sources. I do not consider the following sources reliable:

1. Gopher G6 source code repositary on GitLab and all its contents. This is user-generated and user-submitted content which does not pass through any third-party review. Literally anyone can create free account on GitLab and upload pretty much anything.
2. Material on Pastebin - not reliable (see above)
3. Logs from random chats like in "LOL" section
4. Material simply posted somewhere on the internet which lacks attribution and has not been archived somewhere (not necessarily online) and therefore does not meet Wikipedia definition of "published". It's simple to archive a document on internet via Internet Archive. However, note that being "archived" is a required but not sufficient qualification of a source. That is being "archived" is a prerequisite for a reliable source, not a guarantee that a the source will be considered reliable.

Please let me know of any other sources. Anton.bersh (talk) 09:31, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Here is list of Wiki pages for (You) for check:

Server	Developed by	Latest version	Release date	License	Written in	Notes
Aftershock	Rob Linwood	1.0.1	22 April 2004	MIT	Java
Apache::GopherHandler	Timm Murray	0.1	26 March 2004	GPLv2 or any later version	Perl	Apache 2 plugin to run Gopher-Server.
Atua	Charles Childers	2017.4	9 October 2017	ISC	Forth
Bucktooth	Cameron Kaiser	0.2.9	1 May 2011	Floodgap Free Software License	Perl
Flask-Gopher	Michael Lazar	2.2.1	11 April 2020	GPLv3	Python
geomyid	Quinn Evans	0.0.1	10 August 2015	2-clause BSD	Common Lisp
geomyidae (gopher link) (proxied link)	Christoph Lohmann	0.34	13 March 2019	MIT	C
GN	xripclaw	2.25-20020226	26 February 2002	GPL	C
GoFish	Sean MacLennan	1.2	8 October 2010	GPLv2	C
Gopher Cannon	Geoff Sevart	1.07	8 July 2013	Freeware	.NET 3.5 (Win32/Win64)	Version 1.06 of 26 August 2010 is available from gopherspace.de (gopher link) (proxied link)
Gopher-Server	Timm Murray	0.1.1	26 March 2004	GPLv2	Perl
Gophernicus	Kim Holviala and others	3.1.1	3 January 2021	2-clause BSD	C
gophrier	Guillaume Duhamel	0.2.3	29 March 2012	GPLv2	C
GOPHSERV	?	0.5	30 December 2012	GPLv3	FreeBASIC	Version 0.4 is available from gopherspace.de (gopher link) (proxied link)
Goscher	Aaron W. Hsu	8.0	20 June 2011	ISC	Scheme
mgod	Mate Nagy	1.1	29 January 2018	GPLv3	C
Motsognir	Mateusz Viste	1.0.13	8 January 2021	MIT	C
Pituophis	dotcomboom	1.1	16 May 2020	2-clause BSD	Python	Python-based Gopher library with both server and client support
PyGopherd	John Goerzen	2.0.18.5	14 February 2017	GPLv2	Python	Also supports HTTP, WAP, and Gopher+
PyGS	Adam Gurno	0.3.5	7 August 2001	GPLv2	Python	Development stopped as of 17 April 2003
Redis	Salvatore Sanfilippo	6.2.4	1 June 2021	3-clause BSD	C
save_gopher_server	SSS8555	0.777	7 July 2020	?	Perl	with G6 extension and TFTP
Spacecookie	Lukas Epple	1.0.0.0	17 March 2021	GPLv3	Haskell
Xylophar	Nathaniel Leveck	0.0.1	15 January 2020	GPLv3	FreeBASIC

Sd777797 (talk) 12:14, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello Sd777797, I checked the sources above and could not find a single source mentioning G6 besides SSS8555 account on GitLab. In the above discussion we established that one account posting a piece of code and documentation for it on GitLab does not constitute notability. For a protocol to be notable, there must be at least some reliable commentary about it, e.g., academic or news paper coverage or multiple implementations or any other major reliable coverage.

Also, please read Wikipedia:But there must be sources!. In short, one can not just say "I know there are sources" and expect others to dig through the whole wealth of human knowledge to prove there are no sources. One has to demonstrate these sources to include the info into the article.

Anton.bersh (talk) 22:37, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Since this in-depth discussion did not yield any sources, I removed the unsupported info. If anyone finds good sources, please cite them and add info these sources state. Thanks! Anton.bersh (talk) 10:14, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

The sources in the article 36.37.198.115 (talk) 10:22, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello IP, unfortunatelly I do not see any reliable sources about G6 in the article. Could you actually link them here? Please consider reading Wikipedia:But there must be sources! if you haven't already. Anton.bersh (talk) 22:50, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

36.37.192.0/21 has been partially blocked from editing the page for 1 week; 36.37.192.0/21, during that time, please read the links already provided to you regarding reliable sources. If you can find any, feel free to propose them on this talk page. If you resume edit-warring after that block expires, the next block will be longer.OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 14:58, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Server list

Most of those entries should be removed unless either (1) they have a standalone article like PyGopherd (or, possibly a dedicated section in an article about an enclosing project), or (2) a reliable source can be provided that indicates how the server meets general notability criteria. Wikipedia is not a catalog or directory. If there is a good external list of Gopher clients, a link to that could be included in the "External links" section. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 17:37, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree. I went ahead and removed gn, PyGS, Gopher Cannon, and GOPHSERV as they had either dead links or are unmaintained. More cleanup in that section is needed. zcrayfish (talk) 22:31, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

What about removing those that haven't been updated in the last few years (exact number of years to be decided), except those that appear to be used on existing gopher sites? I had a look at the servers listed on gopher.floodgap.com/1/new and collected information re server from them. (Many provide no such information.)

Gophernicus: 28

cobug.org cyber.dabamos.de devio.us dio9sys.fun eyeblea.ch firien.helluin.org first-monitor.ethz.ch gemeinde.zermatt.ch gopher.lottalinuxlinks.com gopher.operationalsecurity.es gopher.spacehippie.ca gopher.talkingcats.com gopher.teacupftp.com gopher.unixwire.com gopher.zcrayfish.soy happymacs.ddns.net invisibleup.com isene.com petermolnar.net phlogosphere.org pogemon.pw shl.huld.re srjskam.iki.fi suika.erkin.party telefisk.org tellus.strangled.net tilde.team xepb.org

PyGopherd: 9
fripster.ydns.eu gopher.casperscupboard.com gopher.info-underground.net gopher.johncave.co.nz infinitelyremote.com port70.de raymii.org tomas.dscloud.me ygrex.ru

Motsognir: 4
gopher.ratthing.com gopher.unixlore.net gopher.viste.fr i-logout.cz

Bucktooth: 3
gopher.386server.info gopher.floodgap.com gopher.nkeck72.xyz

Flask-Gopher: 2
nz.xeroxirc.net origin.rxivist.org

Geomyidae: 2
kagu-tsuchi.com yasendfile.org

Xylophar: 2
1436.ninja rpod.leveck.us

84.69.182.103 (talk) 12:48, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

I think you're missing the point; Wikipedia is not a catalog or directory; this isn't about whether they've been updated recently, it's about whether or not they are notable and verifiable with third-party sources. A github link is a primary source that only verifies that it exists. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 13:43, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

This conversation likewise applies to the new "clients" section that popped up. Jamestomasino (talk) 10:11, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2021

Please unwikilink John Goerzen as the article has been deleted. Thank you. 84.69.151.40 (talk) 21:38, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

 Done - FlightTime (open channel) 21:41, 29 September 2021 (UTC)