Talk:Sayyid Mir Muhammad Alim Khan

Descendent of Genghis Khan?

This article claims Mohammed Alim Khan was a descendent of Genghis Khan. However, on the Emirate of Bukhara page it says:

It was created after the Khanate of Bukhara was conquered by Nadir Shah and was ruled by emirs of Manghit dynasty. As they were not descended from Genghis Khan, they took the lesser title of "emir."

Since Mohammed Alim Khan was a member of the Manghit dynasty, this seems to be a contradiction! Who's right? --Jfruh (talk) 01:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It looks like an anonymous user just deleted that second sentence. I'll assume good faith and, not knowing anything about he subject at hand, not revert. My answer to your actual question, while speculative, is that MAK was a direct descendent of Genghis Khan (keeping in mind that he is of the last dynasty of the Emirate, while the portion of the Emirate page you quoted refers to its first). The article also makes mention of MAK assuming the title of caliph, and being the only Bukharan ruler to do so. Sound good? --BDD 23:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Er, please read the quoted bit again. It specifically says the Manghit dynasty took the title of emir because they weren't descendents of Genghis Khan. And the first sentence of this article says: "Emir Mohammed Alim Khan (1880–1944) was the last emir of the Manghit dynasty"-- same family.

I suppose it's possible that at some point a descendent of Genghis married into the Manghits. The Manghit page is very stubby. --Jfruh (talk) 00:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Here in the Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary you can read that the Manghit Dynasty of Bukhara were not direct descendants of Genghis Khan, they were his descendants by a mixed (female) line: http://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/Бухара,_ханство_в_Средней_Азии (in Russian). СЛУЖБА (talk) 21:30, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

He wasn't descended from Genghis Khan. What another poster said about the female line is true, but "descent from Genghis" was a very specific thing in Mongol society, requiring the male line and meaning a ruler was in the "Golden Lineage" and called themselves Khan. Emir Mohd Alimkhan didn't ("khan" was a name here, not a title), and this rule was important enough not to be violated. There is a tendency, though, to attribute Genghissid descent to figures like Tamerlane and the amirs of Bukhara, mostly based on unclear information. I am removing the references to Genghissid descent; the citations given are either misinterpreted or mistaken. Aglesaquila (talk) 13:31, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Found a source that mentions that Alim Khan was a descendant of Genghis Khan. Book: Historical Dictionary of the Russian Civil Wars, 1916-1926 By Jonathan D. Smele. On page 974, SAID-MIR MOHAMMED ALIM-KHAN (3 January 1880–28 April 1944). Major general (1911). A direct descendant of Genghis Khan, SaidAlim-khan.[1] Rezanaul (talk) 17:26, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

@Rezanaul: can you give me the quote? Beshogur (talk) 17:29, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

@Beshogur: You can click on the link and it will take direct to page 974. Exact quote is, "A direct descendent of Genghis Khan, Said-Alim-Khan was the last Emir of Bukhara, the Russian protectorate in Central Asia, and had a reputation as a debaunched and corrupt tyrant."Rezanaul (talk) 17:35, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

@Rezanaul: I can't see the text. A direct descendant doesn't seem convincing to me? How is he a direct descendant if he's from a Manghud dynasty? Beshogur (talk) 20:11, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

@Beshogur:Don't know why you can't see text because it opens up for me. Honestly, we cannot ignore something like sources just because its not convincing to us. It could be many reasons of how he could be descendant. Maybe through the one of his many wives or concubines who then moved away to different cities after the death of Genghis Khan and settled in different dynasties. There could be many factors but that is something only experts like historians can tell. Also this information comes from Jonathan D. Smele, a historian who teaches Russian and European History at Queen Mary, University of London and has published extensively on the Russian revolutions and civil wars. Good discussion. Rezanaul (talk) 22:07, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

@Rezanaul: I mean, if other sources states his dynasty is Manghit, it is impossible for him to become a descendant of Genghis Khan. Looks conflicting. Also the Manghits claim common descend. Also consider his name "Khan" might be a personal name rather than a title. Beshogur (talk) 10:26, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

@Beshogur:I am not sure if its impossible. But I tried to look for sources and I came across source History of International Relations: A Non-European Perspective By Erik Ringmar. It says - Alim Khan was descendant of Genghis Khan via Nogai, Genghis's great great grandson. Once the Mongols had been outsted from Russia, the Nogai Horde, as it was known, retreated to two main areas, one north of the Black sea, the other north of the Caspian sea. From here they conducted raids of Russian territory, absconding with young books whom they sold to the Ottomans in Constantinople as soldiers. Little by little, however, the Nogais were pushed south and eastwards by Russian settlers and by the advancing Russian army. In the end, they came to inhabit an area in Central Asia known as Transoxania, with Bukhara and Samarkhand as its two main cities. Here the families established themselves as emirs in 1785.

So this is how Alim Khan is considered descendant. Rezanaul (talk) 23:37, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

@Rezanaul: I don't know. Perhaps that's some misconception. I'll search more about that. Also take a look at this. Regarding the Nogai Horde, Nogai mirzas weren't descendants of Genghis either, so the assumption that Nogai Horde rulers were descendant of Nogai Khan is wrong as well. Edigu came from the Manghit tribes of the ulus of Shiban and would later be regarded as the founder of the Nogai (or “Manghit”) Horde.[2] and more by Peter Golden:In fact, the horde went back to the non-Genghis Khanid Amir Edigü... Beshogur (talk) 14:42, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@Beshogur: Thanks for sharing those sources. I did some research and there are various conflicting information. I believe verification tag is justified. There are number of sources that mention Alim Khan as descendant but on other when you look at information on Nogai Horde then it doesn't sit together. Like look at this one which you would find interesting.[3]. This source mentions that, " It should be noted that the Chinggisids enjoyed the preemptiive right to occupy the khan's throne in the political space of the Desht-I-kipchak. The circumstance forced the descendants of Edigu to intronize exclusively the descendants of Chinggis khan." So this is a possibility as well because when two people decides to take a throne, then they both compete by claiming themselves as the descendants of certain rulers. Which obviously can be false claims that after capturing the throne then passes down to generations. You know what I mean? So keep verification. I don't think we will find any strong verification. Just too many conflicting information and surprised that historians didn't debate on this conflicting reports. Rezanaul (talk) 19:55, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

@Rezanaul: thanks for your understanding. I placed the tag because I couldn't read. I'm going to put a dubious tag for now. Beshogur (talk) 10:01, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Photo

>>> The photo does not seem to be so old. May be it is of somebody dressed up as the Khan. >>> >>> Nah, it's real: https://www.loc.gov/resource/ppmsc.03959/

EmperorBonaparte (talk) 05:57, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Definitely doesn't look like an image from early 20th century, this should be made clear!

But it is, as the caption says, "Alim Khan photographed by Prokudin-Gorskii in 1911.". See the PG page for more info on these photos. BTW, how did you arrive here? I would have thought it's from the PoTD (Picture of the day) link. But if you read the PoTD it makes all this clear Nil Einne 15:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The Library of Congress page for this picture, http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?prok:1:./temp/~pp_VyrM::, identifies the subject as "Sait Abdul Akhad, Emir of Bukhara (died 1911), seated holding sword." The image itself was produced by a process of taking three b&w negatives, one each with a red, green, and blue filter--thus, a color separation. The full color version on the LOC page is a modern digital color image produced from the original separation.Notdillharris (talk) 04:43, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm thinking about the same thing. It's strange that a photo from 1911 can be this good and colorful. But then again I think probably this is an re-imagining from the original photo. I guess I'm right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.254.83.90 (talk) 06:59, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Nothing strange in it: the photo is scanned from original glass plate negatives. Late 19th century photography could produce very accurate photoes, but reprinting them was difficult and results were usually poor. We equate old times to poor quality photography because originals have been usually lost, and what remain are poor quality reprints. --Mikoyan21 (talk) 17:18, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I would be interested to see what the original looks like. Anyone have link to one? Rezanaul (talk) 20:54, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Year of Death?

The article gives both 1945 and 1945 as the year in which this last monarch of Bukhara died. Yes, we may joke that both could be accurate. But, seriously, when did the subject of this article die? Firstorm 23:53, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

1944 is correct year. Rezanaul (talk) 20:56, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Emir of Buhara´s Railway

In 1913 Emir of Buhara, Mohammed Alim Khan, ordered four four small 600 mm gauge steam locomotives from Berlin based German locomotive builder Orenstein & Koppel for his private railway which was built to connect his capital Buhara with Kagan station on the Central Asian Railway, 13 km away. Orenstein & Koppel delivered their oil fired products with factory numbers 7042-7045 in February 1914 to Buchara Bahn. However, Emir did not like the smoke and he prefered to have his personal salon wagon hauled by his camels when he travelled to Kagan. This small railway existed to 1922. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.81.159 (talk) 17:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 07:24, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Other khans?

It would be realy nice if someone could get some information on other Khans of Bukhara,because Mohammed Alim seems to be the only one curently. --New Babylon 2 (talk) 11:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)