Talk:Jimi Hendrix

Semi-protected edit request on 17 July 2021

please change In September, they gave some of their last concerts at the Cafe au Go Go, as John Hammond Jr.'s backing group. to In September, they gave some of their last concerts at the Cafe au Go Go, as John Hammond's backing group.

John Hammond has never gone by "Jr.". He and his father do not have the same name, and his father is the "Junior" in their family line, as the father's name is John Henry Hammond II. The musician's name is John Paul Hammond. KCBlues (talk) 15:07, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done Do you have any reliable source(s)? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:12, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Have changed it to John P. Hammond anyway, although that article says "...he is sometimes referred to as John Hammond Jr.". Martinevans123 (talk) 15:16, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

In several Hendrix bios, he is identified as "John Hammond Jr." or "John Hammond" and not as "John P. Hammond".[1] In a newspaper ad for the Cafe gig, he is listed as "John Hammond" (no preview). —Ojorojo (talk) 17:35, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

So, is it this guy or not? I'm unable to see Roby and Schreiber (2010), so I don't know what form they have used in that source. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:40, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Roby uses "John Hammond Jr.", but sometimes drops the "Jr." His albums up to the 90s or so used "John Hammond".[2] AllMusic still uses "John Hammond, Jr."[3] —Ojorojo (talk) 17:58, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

By all means ask him what he would prefer. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:04, 17 July 2021 (UTC) p.s. Brad Schreiber gets a credit at Becoming Jimi Hendrix, but not here?

Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2021

change

in 1970, Guitar Player named him the Rock Guitarist of the Year

to

in 1970, Guitar Player named him the Rock Guitarist of the Year Rightmire (talk) 15:41, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:54, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I assume you meant the one in the lead section and not the one lower down. The first instance after the lead appears in the "Influences" section, so I have linked that one as well. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:59, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 October 2021

The present text is inconsistent regarding Hendrix military career. It states that he arrived at Ft. Campbell on November 8 1961 and a letter home Hendrix writes that two weeks later he began Airborne Training. The text says he graduated from Airborne training by January 11 1962. The existing text later states that Hendrix took 8 months to compete Airborne training. This is entirely inconsistent. Prior assignments, including Basic Training, AIT, etc are not part of Airborne training as all soldiers do that. It’s not exclusive to Airborne. It would be more accurate to either indicate how long he was in Airborne school, or write that he completed Airborne training 8 months after enlisting. What’s more, Airborne school is, and was, three weeks. It’s a one-shot deal. If you wash out for anything other than a temporary medical issue (like broken bone or laceration) you cannot ever attempt it again. In other words, no one can possible, ever take 8 months to complete Airborne training. 2603:6000:9840:E07:E83D:379D:C9F1:A626 (talk) 16:51, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:56, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Roby and Schreiber don't actually write that "Hendrix completed his paratrooper training in just over eight months" Their timeline, pp. 13–14:

• 6/61 – Begins basic training at Fort Ord, completed in eight weeks.
• 11/8/61 – Arrives at Fort Campbell, sent father letter "There's nothing but physical training and harassment here for two weeks, then when you go to jump school ..."
• 1/11/62 – Receives Screaming Eagle patch, writes father "I made it in eight months and eight days."

So it looks like eight months is the total from basic to patch, but I think the dates are more important than the elasped time. Propose to remove "in just over eight months" and leave as "Hendrix completed his paratrooper training and, on January 11, 1962, Major General C. W. G. Rich awarded him the prestigious Screaming Eagles patch." OK? —Ojorojo (talk) 18:08, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Done. —Ojorojo (talk) 15:38, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Heritage

Since the FA review in 2014, a new book has been published, titled Black-Native Autobiographical Acts: Navigating the Minefields of Authenticity, by a San Francisco State University Professor, Sarita Cannon. Regarding Harry Shapiro and Caesar Glebbeek's biography, which was used as the source for the WP article, she writes:[4]

While Jimi Hendrix was the first person to be inducted into the Native American Music Award Hall of Fame ... his Indian heritage has not been officially documented ... In Electric Gypsy, Harry Shapiro and Caesar Glebbeek provide a detailed family tree that traces Hendrix's paternal ancestry to his great-great-grandparents: a "full-blood Cherokee princess" and an "Irishman named Moore." (Shapiro and Glebbeek 1990, 6) In terms of blood quantum, this would make Jimi Hendrix one-sixteenth Cherokee (Shapiro and Glebbeek 1990, 13). Hendrix learned about his Indian ancestry from his grandmother, Nora Rose Hendrix (nee Moore) who was born in 1883 to the "Cherokee Princess's" son, Robert, and a Black woman named Fanny (Shapiro and Glebbeek 1990, 6). Shapiro and Glebbeek describe Hendrix's visits as a child to Nora in Vancouver where she told stories about her life as a vaudeville performer and recounted "Indian tales of wonder." (Shapiro and Glebbeek 1990, 34) From a young age, Hendrix knew about his native heritage and was informed by the version of Indian culture that his grandmother Nora shared with him. But no documentation of Hendrix's Cherokee blood has been found, and its absence is potentially problematic, especially given the history of appropriation of Indian cultures and identities by non-Indians.

Any ideas on how this be handled in the article?

—Ojorojo (talk) 16:25, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

See the source and text I added, as well as what I cut. The "Cherokee Princess" [sic] claim was part of her stage persona. And his. Anyone who actually writes "Cherokee Princess" is not a reliable source. I've spelled out in the text that the claim was part of their stage personas. And that though Hendrix does seem to have taken it more seriously than she did, it has been debunked by genealogists. I can tell you that, as much as many of us would love to claim him, sadly, no tribe claims him because it's simply not true. Native identity is not about what someone claims, it's about whether a legitimate tribe claims them. (If you don't know, I am heavily involved in the Indigenous wikiproject and we deal with issues of Native identity in bios every day. See the Pretendian article, for example.) - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:36, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

I will also add, that the Cherokee are not only the most well-documented tribe, but they have better genealogical records than most white people of the same eras. It's a myth among non-Natives that these things are hard to find out. Additionally, the Cherokee Nation has one of the most (arguably the most) liberal enrollment policies of any legitimate tribe out there. All one has to do is document one Cherokee ancestor. There are tons of people who would be eager to find that ancestor for Jimi. They tried. Hard. The ancestor isn't there. There are also a bunch of fake Cherokee "tribes". I'm sure some of those may have claimed him, but the fake groups don't require any ancestry or cultural connection at all, just a "sincere belief" that one has some ancestry. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:44, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

First, let me say that I'm not interested in perpetrating an idea of Hendrix's heritage that is not true. But since this is a featured article, it should reflect only what is published in reliable sources. Shapiro and Glebbeek were one of the first to publish an in-depth Hendrix bio (1990 with a genealogical chart), which was used in the article and discussed in the Cannon quote above. More recently, Charles R. Cross' Room Full of Mirrors (2005) added to Hendrix's heritage, claiming that he was "at least one-eighth Native American". [p. 17] If it is later claimed that they were wrong, there should be a reliable source that shows this.

After a brief search,[5] I could only find Cannon, who only goes as far as to say "his Indian heritage has not been officially documented ... no documentation of Hendrix's Cherokee blood has been found". The online essay link you added (Shaefer 2017) says "Amateur genealogists have since cast doubt on the claim", but does not identify who they are or point out what specific errors they found in the earlier authors' research. I did googlebook searches for "sam schaefer",[6] "samantha schaefer",[7] and "schaefer" + "hendrix",[8] but didn't find that they published any books. Also, "schaefer" + "Racial Ambiguity and Mid-twentieth Century American Musicians",[9] doesn't show any results. Cannon's book, which has a chapter on Hendrix (32 pages), was published four years after Schafer's essay. It seems unusual that she does not cite Schaefer if Schaefer is a known expert nor mention the results of newer genealogical research if it is available. Are there any more reliable sources which show that Hendrix's Indian heritage has actually been debunked and is not just lacking in documentation?

—Ojorojo (talk) 17:47, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

What proof of heritage has ever been offered besides his accounts of his grandmother's stories?

The "aspects of Indian culture" he "adopted" for his stage persona were not Cherokee. They were pretendian - based on Hollywood and vaudeville stereotypes, as had been his grandmother's stage persona. The stereoptypes were mix and match Plains/African/Creole/invented. There was absolutely nothing indicating a Cherokee heritage, cultural connection, or cultural knowledge. Not a single thing. I'm sorry, but we see these things all the time, and it's very clear he was, most likely with utter sincerity, operating under a blood myth. His claims were of recent heritage. Were they true, he'd have proud cousins in community, right now, claiming him.

Most non-Natives, including non-Native genealogists, don't know about the extensive genealogical records kept by the Cherokee, and don't have access to them. Family stories of blood myths aren't reliable. Watch Dr. Gates' documentary on this issue in Black families. Just as many white families invented stories of "Indian" ancestors to hide their Black ancestors, many Black families invented Native stories to hide painful (or simply less-appealing) stories of white ancestors. If he had any Cherokee ancestry, we'd have proof. It would have been published long ago. And I'd be able to make a phone call right now and confirm it.

Tribal officials rarely go to the trouble of making official statements about false claimants (though these things are discussed all the time, informally). I only know of a few times they've done it, and it's generally been in more recent years when a person has said or done something harmful. Aside from some stereotypes with the "exoticism", that many were engaging in at the time, Hendrix was not someone most would see as harmful in any way, so I think many looked the other way. I know some even wish it were true, being fans. But that doesn't mean we can leave a falsehood in on WP. And, FWIW, the NAMMYs are kind of a joke. They routinely include pretendians in their "Native" categories and award people who promote stereoypes. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:05, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

This looks like a case of conflicting sources. On one hand, several Hendrix biographers have noted Hendrix's Indian or Cherokee "heritage" and on the other, an academic asserts that this has not been officially documented, which causes certain problems. Currently, the main article only includes one mention of Indian heritage (his mother's "alleged Cherokee heritage", Cross p. 12) [only Cross claims this, now removed] and his induction into the Native American Music Hall of Fame. One footnote includes material with Schafer as the source. As outlined above, Schaefer does not appear to meet the "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications" exception in WP:SELFPUBLISH. The footnote also includes material from The Blood of Entertainers: The Life and Times of Jimi Hendrix's Paternal Grandparents, an article by Hendrix's sister, Janie. It provides details about their grandmother's Cherokee heritage and vaudeville career, which may also be unsuitable.

Propose to remove "alleged Cherokee heritage" from the second paragraph and [done] reword the first along the lines of:

Jimi Hendrix's heritage was African American and Irish. His paternal grandfather, Bertran Philander Ross Hendrix, was born in 1866 out of an extramarital affair between a woman named Fanny and a grain merchant from Urbana, Ohio, or Illinois, one of the wealthiest men in the area at that time. Hendrix's paternal grandmother, Zenora "Nora" Rose Moore, was a former dancer, and the two met and married while traveling the U.S. in a vaudeville troupe. Hendrix and Moore relocated to Vancouver, where they had a son they named James Allen Hendrix on June 10, 1919; the family called him "Al".

I believe this removes any perceived falsehoods. I'm not sure how to handle the NAMMY, except to link the same footnote as above.

—Ojorojo (talk) 18:22, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

There are still problems with the wording that gloss over these biographers inability to either understand, or reliably report on, Cherokee heritage - notably their culturally inaccurate terminology. Also, Ojorojo, this is important: It is not up to academics to say who is and is not Cherokee. It is up to the Cherokee people. They say Hendrix is not Cherokee. Self-claims, which are all Hendrix has, do not count.

I'll take a pass at it:

Jimi Hendrix's heritage was African American and Irish. His paternal grandfather, Bertran Philander Ross Hendrix, was born in 1866 out of an extramarital affair between a woman named Fanny and a grain merchant from Urbana, Ohio, or Illinois, one of the wealthiest men in the area at that time. Hendrix's paternal grandmother, Zenora "Nora" Rose Moore, was a former dancer and vaudeville performer who would prove to be a profound influence on the young Hendrix. Hendrix and Moore relocated to Vancouver, where they had a son they named James Allen Hendrix on June 10, 1919; the family called him "Al".

It's important, especially for a FA, to stick to the sources. The two cited biographers both have not "noted that Nora alternately claimed" anything. She died in 1984, well before either bio was written. Shapiro includes a long list of acknowledgements, including several Hendrix family members (but not Nora) and genealogical libraries; Cross does likewise, but no genealogical libraries. Cross does not list the earlier grandmothers by name, so it's not clear why he differs from Shapiro's genealogical chart. My earlier wording is accurate – wherever they got their information, they present it as simple statements, with no "according to" or "as claimed by".

Also, neither source says that Nora was a "profound influence on the young Hendrix", but rather that Jimi liked her a lot and enjoyed listening to her stories. It sounds more like what Janie Hendrix wrote in her article, but, being a primary source, she probably shouldn't be used. So, unless you have some more reliable sources, these changes shouldn't be made (but the last sentence you've added is OK).

—Ojorojo (talk) 19:45, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Jimi Hendrix's heritage was African American and Irish. His paternal grandfather, Bertran Philander Ross Hendrix, was born in 1866 out of an extramarital affair between a woman named Fanny and a grain merchant from Urbana, Ohio, or Illinois, one of the wealthiest men in the area at that time. Hendrix's paternal grandmother, Zenora "Nora" Rose Moore, was a former dancer and vaudeville performer. Hendrix and Moore relocated to Vancouver, where they had a son they named James Allen Hendrix on June 10, 1919; the family called him "Al".

More concise, less false claims to distract. She can't have "shared Native culture with him" if she wasn't Native. And given what he presented as "Native culture", I'm sorry, but that's not what happened. I have the utmost compassion for his belief in this blood myth, but that's clearly what it was - a myth. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:49, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

But for WP purposes, it only matters what reliable sources have to say. The first paragraph has been added, but there are still problems with the footnotes. Again, the first sentence is simply untrue – none of the sources say nor imply this. There is no record that Nora, Jimi, or other family members referred to a "Cherokee princess". Shapiro and Glebbeek appear to be the only ones who use the term and they do not attribute to to anyone. I found an additional reliable source that specifically says that Hendrix is "not enrolled in any Cherokee tribe". More has been trimmed and clarified.

—Ojorojo (talk) 16:23, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Some clarification is probably needed regarding Hendrix's NAMMY in another footnote under "Recognition and awards".

—Ojorojo (talk) 17:56, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

You don't seem to me to have read the guidelines I asked you to read about what is and is not a reliable source for Indigenous identity. Have you read The guidelines by the Indigenous wikiproject on this issue? Anything can call itself "Native", but if they list known non-Natives, they are not RS. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:49, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

One non-Native author's opinion about whether or not someone was Playing Indian is insufficient for inclusion in something like this. It's opinion. If that is to be included, so should the source I cited, on an academic website, that discussed his conscious use of "racial exoticism" as part of his stage persona. I cringe writing that, as I love Hendrix, but it's true. As are the quotes where he also claimed to be Cuban and "from Mars". It was showmanship. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:07, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

The mention of the native-topic encyclopedias was to provide some context for Hendrix's NAMMY, otherwise it might seem like a random choice to readers who may have skipped over the Ancestry section. They weren't sources for his ethnicity, so they really aren't needed. Regarding the rest: Hendrix had a peculiar way of expressing himself and used a lot of imagery and humor. Being Cuban and from Mars were clearly jokes, but I honestly don't believe that being part Cherokee was one or that he was intending to deceive or using it as just another gimmick. Added the latest version. —Ojorojo (talk) 00:35, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Extended content

Ankle injury/ medical discharge

"Hendrix...lied that he had received a medical discharge after breaking his ankle during his 26th parachute jump.[61][nb 9]"

The source support for him "lying" about his ankle injury seems to be pretty weak. In the major Hendrix documentary "Hear My Train A' Comin'" the medical discharge for a broken ankle is presented as factual. There are other sources that say his military records mention an ankle injury as the reason for his honorable medical discharge. Unless there's conclusive evidence that he lied about the ankle injury, then the most one can say is that some sources say he did have such an injury and others say he lied about it. TheBlinkster (talk) 07:11, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello: Many biographies about Hendrix include something along the lines of "he received an honorable discharge for medical reasons because of a broken ankle he received during a parachute jump". But his military records don't seem to bear this out. One biography includes "All [Hendrix's biographers], however, had maintained that Hendrix's break from the army was due to a literal break—a broken ankle. Hendrix's army files say nothing about a broken bone but instead make clear that the army did not want him any more than he, apparently, wanted the army."[10]

While Hendrix's military records[11] may be incomplete, they show that when the discharge procedure was initiated (May 1962), the only complaints against him were behavioral related with no mention of physical injuries or disabilities. It started as an AR 635-208 general discharge as "undesireable", but was approved on 27 June 1962 under 635-209 as a general discharge under honorable conditions due to "unsuitability" (which Hendrix signed). There are many statements about his poor performance (missing bed checks, sleeping on duty, lack of interest in his equipment, etc.), but nothing about an injury.

Roby and Scheiber (one of the sources used in the article) write:

Alphonso Johnson [a band mate while Hendrix was in the army] provided additional insight into the case against Private Hendrix: "His friend Billy Cox was getting out soon, and Jimi didn't want to stay in the Army alone, so Jimi said he broke his ankle to get out. Jimi wore a cast for about two weeks after he was out, and then it came off. He faked that one. I used to ask him how it was doing, and he said, 'Oh, just fine." He knew I was teasing him. He'd figured a way to get out and be with Billy. [p. 26]

So, although there may be no "conclusive evidence that he lied about the ankle injury", there is no Army record that he ever sustained one or that his discharge was for anything related to a physical injury or disability. Propose to make the following change: "Hendrix later spoke of his dislike of the army and lied that he had received a medical discharge after breaking his ankle during his 26th parachute jump.[61][nb 9] However, no army records have been produced that indicate that he received or was discharged for any injuries. [Gelfand 2006, p. 32]

—Ojorojo (talk) 16:03, 4 December 2021 (UTC)