Talk:List of wars involving Afghanistan

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WP:COLOR

I have little opinion on the colors used in the table, but I made changes to make them at least compliant with WCAG. Change them around all you like, but please follow the proper guidelines to ensure maximum visibility and legibility for those with less sharp eyes (like me). Drmies (talk) 17:15, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed changes to victory/defeat/inconclusive

I find the changes proposed by @Patasaunii7 to be factually incorrect and I don't think the changes should stand (I am looking at this diff specifically).

The first change, making the result of Afghan–Sikh Wars inconclusive, I don't understand. By looking at the article it looks like the Durrani Empire lost territory and the Sikhs gained territory, for example Kashmir being lost after the Battle of Shopian.

The second change, removing the result of Second Anglo-Afghan War (victory) doesn't really make sense to me. The war article has four citations supporting a British victory, for one. For another, the treaty was most certainly a loss (ceded frontier areas) and Afghanistan was made into a protectorate. That is nothing but a British Victory.

The third change, changing the outcome of Third Anglo-Afghan War to victory from inconclusive is incorrect- yes the Afghans secured independence and a diplomatic victory however the British confirmed the Durrand Line as the border.

I appreciate Patasaunii7's good faith willingness to edit but I don't see any justification for the changes. Note: the burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor that adds material. Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 17:05, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No source claimed Sikh victory ie. gaining territory does not equal victory.

The British failed to receive the control of the internal affairs of Afghanistan, had to pay a subsidy for that protection, full military withdrawal planned prior to agreement and occurred after agreement, British resident prevented from staying in Kabul. Thus, the outcome is referred to in the treaty rather than outright victory.

Aim of the Afghans was to get independence - achieved - thus, victory Patasaunii7 (talk) 17:26, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, a lot of my first post was original research. I do think an inconclusive result could make sense for the Sikh wars- or none at all. In the article the result is listed for each phase- not "victory" or "defeat" and I could not find a source to support either.

However, here is one source that has the second anglo-afghan war as a victory: ^[1] Also, the treaty occurred after phase one of the war and listing that as the result excludes the Second phase.

I also have another source that lists anglo-afghan 3 as inconclusive: ^[2] Here's another source that says both sides claimed victory: ^[3] If both sides claimed victory, then listing it as inconclusive seems appropriate. Listing it as a British strategic & tactical victory and an Afghan diplomatic victory might be a viable alternative, although that is wordy. Also, how do you know the aim of the Afghans was independence (do you have a source)?

References

^ Schmidt, Karl J. (1995). An Atlas and Survey of South Asian History. M.E. Sharpe. p. 74. ISBN 978-1563243332. British forces were victorious and Sher Ali was deposed
^ "Anglo-Afghan Wars". Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved 8 August 2021. This declaration launched the inconclusive Third Anglo-Afghan War in May 1919.
^ "Third Anglo-Afghan War". Duke University Library Exhibits. Retrieved 8 August 2021. The war was ended by the Treaty of Rawalpindi, with both sides claiming a measure of victory – the Afghans successfully asserting their right to conduct their own foreign affairs (one of the first acts of which was to recognize the new Bolshevik government in Russia), and the British re-establishing the ante bellum border and discontinuing their subsidy to the Amir.

In summary, your first change might be fine but I respectfully disagree with your second and third changes (supported by sources). Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 18:11, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring

@Downfall7: Please refrain from making condescending remarks such as 'you appear to be lost'. Because the Tajiks populate present-day Afghanistan, does not mean that the medieval Ghurids were Afghan. You're mixing modern nationality with ethnicity. This has been discussed several times at Ghurid dynasty article, where the consensus was that they were not Afghan, hence why the article is portrayed as such. I would highly advise you to revert yourself back, or I will take this to WP:ANI. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:42, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In your first response, you admitted "exactly" to when I stated the Ghurids as per the historians admitted they were Tajiks. It is not difficult to understand if they logically concluded to be Tajiks in ancestry. It means they are referring to the native Afghan state's population of Tajiks. Tajik is not a nationality, it is an ethnic group. Furthermore, both Pashtuns and Tajiks identify as Afghans (modern Afghan state is only mentioned as to discuss the modern bounadaries of Afghanistan. Moreover, if it has been concluded that they were Tajiks as per the Ghurud Dynasty Wikipedia page had admitted, it can only be understood as an "Afghan" empire (territory wise) as they originate from that land. Otherwise if you refer to just nationality, all "wars involving...." for each country would begin only counting for the last few hundred years, unless that is the only point you are trying to make?

Regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Downfall7 (talk • contribs) 13:49, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Downfall7: This is not mentioned in the sources, and is based on your personal interpration, thus violating WP:OR and WP:TENDENTIOUS. The Ghurids were not Afghan, as they were neither 1. Pashtun, 2. Afghan nationality, as that is a modern nationality first constructed in 18 or 19th-centuries. Calling a medieval Tajik for 'Afghan' even though the country of Afghanistan was first established almost six centuries later is again, pure WP:OR and WP:TENDENTIOUS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:58, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

HistoryofIran was right, although we don’t completely know that if the ghurids were generally Tajik or Pashtun, most modern scholars today believe they may have been tajik, it is generally just unknown.

And if it is unknown, it should not be included in this page. Noorullah21 (talk) 16:59, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Downfall7 blocked as Confirmed sock. Should these same arguments arise from a new editor again, they can be reported at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mujhideen101.-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 18:15, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Schmidt, Karl J. (1995). An Atlas and Survey of South Asian History. M.E. Sharpe. p. 74. ISBN 978-1563243332. British forces were victorious and Sher Ali was deposed

[2] "Anglo-Afghan Wars". Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved 8 August 2021. This declaration launched the inconclusive Third Anglo-Afghan War in May 1919.

[3] "Third Anglo-Afghan War". Duke University Library Exhibits. Retrieved 8 August 2021. The war was ended by the Treaty of Rawalpindi, with both sides claiming a measure of victory – the Afghans successfully asserting their right to conduct their own foreign affairs (one of the first acts of which was to recognize the new Bolshevik government in Russia), and the British re-establishing the ante bellum border and discontinuing their subsidy to the Amir.

[1]

[2]

[3]