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December 28

Template:Blackwater

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was subst and delete. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 00:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Blackwater (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Blatant violation of WP:POINT; created with a statement by the creator that he knows it is an inappropriate use of templates by Wikipedia rules but is creating it anyway. Creator has invoked WP:IAR despite initially not explaining why the rules need to be violated. When he finally did explain, the explanation was basically "I think it would be good if we used templates to add the same body text to multiple articles", attempting to unilaterally make a major change in how templates are used, which if accepted would apply to far more than just this one template. Ken Arromdee 21:31, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - As per the talk page...
It's hardly disrupting Wikipedia, it's explanation should be clear - taking a small event and inviting users to define how Wikipedia can best summarise that incident, and then inserting it simultaneously into every article that mentions it, instead of United States occupation of Fallujah and First Battle of Fallujah having vaguely-different retellings of the same incident. Now, when consensus agrees to change a detail (such as say the unnecessary "This may have been a reaction to the policy by some private military contractors of shooting any cars that got too close to them while driving to reduce the danger from suicide bombers." from Fallujah's original telling of the event) or the too=-wordy "known previously as "the old bridge", but now as "the Blackwater bridge" and to the Marines as "the Brooklyn Bridge", it is changed across multiple articles at once.
No, it's not the intended use of templates - but it improves Wikipedia, and it offers no harm to the project, thus why it fits nicely into the official policy of Wikipedia:Ignore all rules's guidelines. It is "the exception to the rules", and thus no, it does not mean that "if accepted would apply to far more than just this one template." as you claim. The template is improving Wikipedia in a way that couldn't be done without using it, and it offers no harm...yes it's a feature being used in a way other than it was designed for, but it was mentioned on #wikipedia and talk pages long before it was created, and faced no opposition. Now it exists, it improves the project, it harms nothing, and it deserves to stay. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 21:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing about your justification that is specific to this one template. Even if you may not intend that other templates be used this way, your reasoning does, in fact, apply to other templates, and if fully accepted would change large portions of Wikipedia. Ken Arromdee 22:15, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak delete, the usage of templates to provide prose to articles is generally frowned upon, because it makes the text harder to edit and because identical wording is rarely appropriate. If you're going to be using the exact same wording in two separate articles, you might want to prune one or the other for redundancy. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 22:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Looking at this template in context is strengthening my opposition to its existence. Its use in Blackwater USA and Scott Helvenston is out of place and awkward. The incident requires separate coverage for each article, and anyone seeking the fullest detail can be referred to our single main article on the subject. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 22:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Looking at it in those articles, the first thought that comes to mind (other than "well he has a point") is that it could likely be fixed by something as simple as adding two breaklines (----) to the top and bottom of the template, possibly setting it as "clearly templated text" which then wouldn't be different from say, the div tags used in many other articles such as Gerald Ford to show relevant quotations, or Charles Whitman to show his equipment lists. I don't think right now this template is the best-thing to ever happen to Wikipedia, but I think it has potential, and with a little work (it's only existed for less than a day), it could be a valuable resource. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 23:51, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete. Templates do not get used to write article content. Period. -Amarkov blahedits 23:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete per above. Its a lazy way to "maintain" multiple articles. There is rarely any reason for multiple articles to have precicely the same text. If they do, that generally means that one should be pruned as redundant, or that the articles should be merged. Resolute 00:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep,I agree with Sherurcij that the Template should stick because we can not have diferent variations of that small but again realy defining event in the Iraq war on various articles on Wikipedia, the users of Wikipedia should make a consensus what realy happened on that day and that template should be used as an integral part of various articles that are created that have connection to that event. Top Gun 02:12, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete per Resolute. TJ Spyke 02:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Delete. Templates should never contain article text -- they're not part of the main namespace! Per Wikipedia:Template namespace:
Templates should not masquerade as article content in the main article namespace; instead, place the text directly into the article.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Template:Talkheader

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was to keep. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 00:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Talkheader (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Previous discussions can be found at: WP:TFD/Log/Not deleted/2005/09, WP:TFD/Log/Not deleted/2005/10 and WP:TFD (2006-02-16).

Already superseded by MediaWiki:Talkpagetext on EN and SIMPLE. Deprecate, then merge and delete as nom. --Slgr@ndson (page - messages - contribs) 21:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Wesleyan

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The result of the debate was deletion. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 00:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Wesleyan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Template is too broad as Wesleyan can refer to numerous schools and there is another school simply known as Welseyan Univeristy. User:SandyGeorgia went through and manually changed all of the redirects to Template:Ohio Wesleyan University so this template should now be blank and ready for deletion without any problem/objection. Balloonman 18:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Findarticles

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The result of the debate was deletion. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 00:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Findarticles (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Should be deleted, as this template is for including a search engine results page in an article, which is specifically against Wikipedia:External links#Links normally to be avoided #7. We should include links to individual articles, not search engine results pages. Only used in one article. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 18:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Resident Evil film character

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was tentative keep - no votes, no replacement infobox. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 00:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Resident Evil film character (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Mostly fancruft, but mainly because I merge most of the characters from the Resident Evil film series into one list. Jonny2x4 17:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Champions League 2005/06

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was deletion. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 00:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Champions League 2005/06 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Obsolete as we only use templates for the current season. Therefore, this template is only used in the Champions League 2005/06 article. Can be subst'ed before deletion. --Punkmorten 15:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:UEFA Cup 2005/06

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The result of the debate was deletion. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 00:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:UEFA Cup 2005/06 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Obsolete as we only use templates for the current season. Therefore, this template is only used in the UEFA Cup 2005/06 article. Can be subst'ed before deletion.. --Punkmorten 15:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Disputed-list

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The result of the debate was deletion. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 00:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Disputed-list (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

template is not used (only one user page links); unclear what this was intended for, and apparently redundant to other dispute templates such as {{Disputed-section}} Dl2000 15:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Thebillepisodes

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The result of the debate was deletion. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 00:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Thebillepisodes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This template duplicates the behaviour and options of Template:Infobox television episode. --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 13:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I only see a different color. Add a color tag if you really want a color. TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 00:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Haha you kidding me :D? Template_talk:Infobox_Television_episode#Background_Colour_Tag. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 11:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Template:World Heritage Sites

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was deletion. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 00:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:World Heritage Sites (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Completely useless. And on the top of things, the image used is fair use... Renata 12:31, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Placeopedia

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was deletion. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 00:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Placeopedia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

The main effect of this template is to develop a presence for Placeopedia.com on Wikipedia. The template is transcluded in the External links sections of many geographical articles and I think the links should be considered spam. (see also Talk:Placeopedia) The site is unconnected with the Wikimedia Foundation but associates itself with the trademarked Wikipedia logo. Putting one of the {{coor}} templates allows similar functionality for the user, and allows them to use their choice of mapping software. Femto 12:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Template:step

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was revise, but no other clear consensus. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 00:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Step (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

The template does nothing but add ambiguous, confusing links surrounded by a loud box and an unnecessary icon. Its role is better served by succession boxes, which allow for a description of the relationship that actually relates the articles, or by plain text "See Also" links, which can have a short explanation next to them. There are a number of complaints agreeing with these sentiments on the talk page for the template. --Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 07:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't aware of timelines. As a fool, I had found the step template easy to use.--Patchouli 14:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying you should necessarily use it (I personally think it's unwieldy myself), but the relationships (because there are several) expressed in {{step}} are still more easily handled within the article. Some are purely time-related, others are evolutionary, and if the line is not completed fully, it is confusing. Circeus 14:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: In what way is its applications and functions different from that of succession box? — Instantnood 17:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep A succession box is appropriate for a series of subjects with a one-to-one succession order, defined transition, and no clear hierarchy of refinement. The step template is for the progression of a field/technology/idea where there may be multiple predecessors or successors, a lack of clearly defined transition dates, a clear hierarchy of refinement. Imagine trying to use a succession box for PCI: it was succeeded by AGP, PCI express and PCIX, but all four technologies coexist in the marketplace. A succession template also only indicates time-based ordering, not an ordering of superiority/advancement. —Dgiest c 21:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rethink I can certainly see the useful point behind this, although it seems not to have worked well (Hamlet (place) for example is a logical nonsense, as the definition in the article is flatly contradicted by the way this template has been used). The tech tree idea above looks as though it would be worth exploring further.HeartofaDog 15:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Revise or Remove This template in its present state seems to be causing more confusion then help. Consider adding a header or exploring the tech tree idea further. Please let me know when a decision is made. I would like to help update articles using this template.Phatom87 04:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]


  • Keep and refine: Add an extra feild into the template stating what the sucession was. Eg. was the succession a) Next release, b) A direct decendent or enhancement, c) Inspired, d) upgrade path (or alternate), e) Next Elected f) Replaced by, g) killed by, ,... etc etc Certainly this field is missing. As in interim step a [type of succession needs to be cited] tag could be included. I am sure that this would prompt people to review the field>> Γνώθι Σεαυτόν 09:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Template:AndonicO's Happy Holidays template

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was deletion of main-space copy. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 01:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:AndonicO's Happy Holidays template (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Unecyclopedic use of template space for a greeting card. I asked the user to subst and have posted the TfD tag on the talk page for the moment. If the substing doesn't happen by tomorrow I'll move it to the template page. ~ trialsanderrors 06:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Pokenum

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was to keep. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 01:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Pokenum (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

The theory behind this is very interesting. Templates used for forward compatability are cool, in theory. However, after a lot of waffling about how it is necessary because of reasons that assume a number is necessary, nobody at WT:PCP has come up with a reason that any number at all should be included. Thus, we just have a place for vandals to insert penises into 494 articles at once, with no good use. -Amarkov blahedits 05:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gah, consider this withdrawn, apparently it's not clear I no longer agree with it. -Amarkov blahedits 04:48, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
NO!!!!! Don’t withdraw. While I personally don’t support deletion( please see my vote below for reason), your reasons, particularly the vandalism, are good points. Don’t withdraw because you’re outnumbered, only when your wrong. Frankly, whether the number needs to be in every article is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to whether we need a template to accompish this. --WikidSmaht (talk) 23:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is, which is why I am wrong. TfD is not for template usage concerns. -Amarkov blahedits 00:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. --WikidSmaht (talk) 00:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Poor choice of words. >.> Anyway, "insertion" could be handled by protection. Plenty of "high risk" templates are semi-protected or fully protected. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 21:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think we should keep the fact that it's been vandalized out of the argument. The George W. Bush article has been hit by a lot of vandalism, I'm sure, but it hasn't been deleted. It's unfortunate that people have vandalized this template, but that shouldn't be grounds for deletion. --Brandon Dilbeck 05:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I should have clarified that more. My rationale for deletion doesn't include vandalism, that's just there to be kinda sorta funny, and to preemptively counter any "It doesn't do any harm!" comments. -Amarkov blahedits 05:31, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How about an "it shouldn't do any harm!" comment? We shouldn't have to write articles on Wikipedia considering whether it'll be vandalized. We should just write articles and revert vandalism when it happens. My take on this TfD is Keep. The template can be immensely useful if and when more Pokémon are released. The Pokenum template is used in many articles so that when a new Pokémon is released, writers do not have to search through Wikipedia to find the old number and edit the whole article to insert the new number. A few months ago, when the new Pokémon Diamond and Pearl species were being released, the Pokenum template was being updated frequently with new numbers. The Pokenum template is not used only in the individual Pokémon species, either. It's used in several articles such as Pokémon, and oddly enough, in a lot of user namespace as well. --Brandon Dilbeck 05:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me please. AAA AAAA AAA AAAAAAAA AA AAAAAAAA!. Now, why must everyone sidestep my question? Why must there be a number at all? And if it doesn't do any help, then even a theoretical harm should suffice for deletion. -Amarkov blahedits 05:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not registered here but i believe, having reverted some of the Vandalism myself that I should get a say. The template for Pokemon is easily one of the best (for Pokemon on the internet). It doesn't have the detail that Serebii.net's does, but that isn't the point, is it? This isn't a fan-site. I'm getting off-topic here. If you're trying to say that the numbering system for Pokemon is a problem, then you should simplify the problem by listing them by number in the national pokedex's number system - the reason I say this is that it is the one and only Pokedex that lists them all, by generation, in order. It's a logical idea and a simple one at that. And vandalism surely can be prevented?
Oh, by the way, I've yet to see a decent arguement on here. What is being proposed is something that to my knowledge has worked since it's creation. Yes, vandalism is an issue, but I have yet to see a page being deleted due to it, at least solely to that reason. 89.242.217.197 21:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)Darkrai[reply]
Yes, but vandalizing ONE article is different from vandalizing 500 at once. --WikidSmaht (talk) 23:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, the template in question allows for the numbers in all the 493 articles to be altered at once, rather then having to go through all of them and do it by hand. It is importent to have then number, because pokemon, as an notible anime/game/etc, the pokemon are it's bread and butter. The Total number is almost mystical, if you will. it is, in some ways, symbolic of the whole 'got to catch them all'. --HoneymaneHeghlu meH QaQ jajvam 05:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I brought this up on the talk page there a month ago, and no one seems to have been able to justify it. We don't define helium, for example, as "Helium is one of a 118 chemical elements"; it is defined by its properties, what it is, not by some total number of other entities in the same class, which is almost totally irrelevant. —Centrx→talk • 05:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • That would be rather funny. "Helium is one of the 118 chemical elements of the periodic table..." -Amarkov blahedits 05:57, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • It would be more funny if all the articles on Pokemon creatures did not start exactly this way. "Carbon is one of the 118 chemical elements of the periodic table...", "Plutonium is one of the 118 chemical elements of the periodic table...". One would think they are all identical. —Centrx→talk • 07:07, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and above. There's no reason to give an exact number of pokemon in every other pokemon article. If you want an exact number, then view one of the main articles. Like Centrx said above, we don't do this for other articles. It's not major or anything, just unnecessary. The con's might not be huge, but neither are the pro's. There's no good reason for this template, and reasons to get rid of it. So.. I'm not sure what the big deal is. -- Ned Scott 06:07, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • My main objection is the use of the template on so many articles. If this template is going to be used on a limited number of articles and not every single Pokemon article then I would not oppose keeping it. -- Ned Scott 04:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep just because the template shouldn't be used on every single page in the intros, doesn't mean that it doesn't still have use. The template can still be used in general prose throughout the variety of articles. And is still pertinent for articles that might fly under the radar who refer to the number of pokemon in existence (e.g. Eyecatch). Sure remove it from {{pokestart}}, and all 493 species articles that use it for the sole purpose of saying X is one of 493 species of pokemon, but like in this sentence, it can still be useful and is used in other manners across all of wikipedia (templates' usability is not confined to the article namespace, and there are many non-article pages that use this template as well - what links to Pokenum). -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 06:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't see why we need a template for that. We don't have a template for the number of elements discovered, nor for the number of Digimon, so why here? -Amarkov blahedits 06:28, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • because when the number changes that means any article that quotes the number will be wrong. the number of pokemon changes much more often than the number of elements. it's a small cheap template that saves people the headache of trying to track down any article that might mention the current number of pokemon, and it is still useful in non-article namespaces (if it wasn't it wouldn't be used). -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 06:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • so when someone writes an article and wants to mention the number of pokemon we say they can't? i'm not talking about identical leads in all 493 pages but in other pages like i've listed below -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 07:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I honestly do not see what purpose this template actually serves. The only article that needs to keep track of the number of Pokemon in existence is the main article. The rest are prefectly fine simply stating that x character is a pokemon character. There is no reason to have hundreds of articles listing what is largely irrelevent information. Resolute 06:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
here's the problem, people are wanting to delete the template for the wrong reasons. Yes, the pokenum template should be removed from being in every lead section. However, there are other articles (e.g. Eyecatch, Pokémon Master, Pokémon game mechanics), several talk pages, the portal page, and even wikipedia pages (e.g. Wikipedia:Pokémon test) that use this. template usefulness extends beyond the article namespace -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 07:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, I get that it is heavily used. I took a look at what links to the page. I just do not believe posting this number is necessary in more than a handful of articles and otherspace pages. Certantly not more than would be easy to maintain. The drawbacks of a template like this outweigh the benefits, IMNSHO. Resolute 07:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
there are plenty of templates out there that are used less than this would be after removing it from the majority. Surely those few pages could be easily monitored but those aren't deleted. besides, we aren't safeguarded from future uses of the number, if someone creates a new article, or rewrites a section that approriately uses the number somebody will have to catch it if the number ever changes. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 07:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. All the aforementioned articles could do without a number. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice (Talk|Contribs) 07:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • what about the portal, or some future article? and we shouldn't be forbiding people from using the current number which is what you'd effectively be doing by removing the template, b/c now when the number changes someone will have to sift through pages to make all the idiotic changes. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 07:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I realize that :) what i'm saying is that even if the template was only used in 4 articles it would still be useful because we'd be SURE that they were accurate. Plus, if someone down the road was to write an article or find an appropriate section to add the number to, we wouldn't have to worry about one flying under the radar when the numbers change. Additionally, the template is used in the portal, a few WP pages, and in many talk pages (ok, talk pages prolly don't need to retain temporal accuracy). By saying that an article can can only quote the number of pokemon if it's "absolutely necessary" is making a grand requirement over any pgae that could potentially be written. Hey, when Nintendo says they're done and no more pokemon will be made, we can go through and rm it, but for now it's safest for the sake of accuracy that we keep it. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 09:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm not going to weigh in on deleting this, but I am going to side with the stylistic side opposed to including the number in every article. Elements aren't defined by the number of types of elements; it's not relevant to each individual of the set how many the set has in total, whether you're talking about chemical elements, presidents, ships, or Pokemon. The only exceptions are ones where the number tells you something significant about the item itself, like a ship that's the only member of its class. It's just part of a larger attempt to bulk up each article with irrelevant and redundant information to hide the lack of out-of-universe importance and data for many pokemon. All that needs to be said is "X is a Pokemon." If someone needs to know what a Pokemon is, they can look at the pokemon article and see that it's one of 493 fictional species. It all leads people away from the real key information, like when was it introduced, what importance does it have, and how can I kill it if it comes back as a zombie. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 09:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Night Gyr. >Radiant< 12:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The arguments above only says that it's unnecessary to have a number on every single page for each Pokemon article there is. I neither disagree nor agree to this. However, that doesn't provide enough justification for this template to be deleted, and as mentioned above many other articles, non-article pages and templates still use this template, and some new articles in the future may use this template too. It makes updating articles so much easier. Imagine how messy it will be on Wikipedia when one article mentions there are only 250 Pokemon in total (people forgot to update this page), and the next article that just got updated mentions there are 493? It'd be worse if Nintendo decides to add more in the future, we will have different pages showing different numbers. We cannot stop people from putting the total number of Pokemon in their (existing or new) articles, and this doesn't necessarily have to be on the first line on each Pokemon page as most people argues above. Someone mentioned above, "if it isn't in a lot of articles, there won't be a lot of changes", but who can guarantee that it won't be in a lot of articles? Those who argue the template is "unnecessary" has not given, in my opinion, a proper valid reason why. As those who said "the drawbacks of a template like this outweigh the benefits", what IS the actual drawback of having a template like this existing on Wikipedia (besides Vandalism)? What is wrong with having an extra template that actually serves its purpose? I don't mind having a template for the total number of digimons or periodic elements if it makes things easier. Pikablu0530 14:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • You don't need a template for this. Just put the correct number on the Pokemon article and update that. You don't need the number elsewhere. The template is enabling and encouraging this number to be put on every single Pokemon article, which is not appropriate for the encyclopedia. —Centrx→talk • 07:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I don't think all Pokemon need this info in their article, but the template is put to good use in other places and on other namespaces, so I see no reason it should be deleted. The template is a little silly, but it's still got a purpose. -- Kicking222 14:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The point of this discussion seems to be moving towards whether the number should be included at all, rather than whether we should have a template for it. It would make no sense at all to delete this template and then subst it in hundreds of articles. --- RockMFR 17:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, but don't open every single pokémon article with it. It's pretty silly to do so, and if anyone cared about the number they would be far more likely to check a main pokémon article. The template should be used on just those articles, or in other places if deemed appropriate. -masamunemaniac 23:29, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep, there are roughly 500 articles which use the pokenum template. Removing it and replacing it with numbers will create problems when the next generation rolls around, and all 500 articles would have to be updated for every single Pokemon slowly and meticulously revealed.--Nintenfreak 00:53, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Nin, that's way out of line. Whatever you feelings you have about either template, don't attack your fellow users. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 20:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • general response - It has been stated several times that pokenum's use on the 493 pages is not a valid reason for keeping it, pls refrain from adding only that to the discussion. if you're here to defend pokenum because it's used on all 400+ articles, pls refrain from posting as that is NOT why we should keep it, and in fact, pokenum may soon only be on a small number of different articles. Also, Centrx, you stated pokenum pokestart isn't used on many pages, actually it is, it's just been subst'd. The volatile nature of the number of pokemon is a good reason to use a template to keep track of of this small amount of simple data because like Ace Class Shadow stated, wikipedia has the obligation to remain as accurate as possible. In this spirit though, i agree that the template would be improved by adding a "noinclude" tagged citation (not every page on wikipedia uses ref tags). Saying that an article shouldn't become inaccurate because of a change in relevant information is logically flawed, should an article on Congress stay exactly the same after every election? I'd also like to remind people that this is not actually a vote to decide how to use the template, just whether or not it violates any wiki guidelines or policies. Stylistic issues need to be either fixed by you or brought to the appropriate project's attention. The fact that all the articles have an almost duplicate lead section is partly due to some overpoliticization of that project. But hopefully these TFDs can help bring in more outsider insight :) {{pokenum}} is at the page where it is because writing e accent aigu is difficult for some people, of course feel free to move it and provide a redirect, it wouldn't really change anything (just fix double redirects). And the other uses for pokenum outside of the main article have been oft discussed, please see my other posts for examples - and the point is moot because, like i said before, by saying you can only use the number in the main article your writing an edict forbiding even the appropriate use of the number elsewhere. (yes, i'm a windbag) -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 08:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • KEEP - There are several articles that reference, or future articles that may need to refrence this number. Any article refering to the amount of Pokémon in comparison to something else (in this day and age anyways) would need this template because the number is constantly updated! There are probably more than 500 pages that refer to this number, could you imagine someone having to go through and update each one every time a single, additional Pokémon is added to the Dex? It would take an outrageous amount of time, just to keep the Wikipedia accurate. I'm fairly sure, that this of all things would warrant the keep of this template. NinjaVee 07:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Is there any reason so many people just completely ignored the arguments and said "Keep because it needs to be updated!" -Amarkov blahedits 07:22, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I think its a good idea.Ajuk 14:51, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I must admit it is rather silly to paste the number at the begining of every creature article but having the template does facilitate things when new creatures are introduced. And as long as Nintendo exists there will be new Pokémon every so often. -Defunctzombie 06:33, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - As per NinjaVee. While I acknowledge the delete arguments presented by the nom vandalism should not be a reason to exclude data or forward compatibility. While we can debate if it is proper or not to include the number of pokemon in every article it does have uses outside of the individual pokepages Ariolander 01:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - A perfectly appropriate use of templates. Protect if necessary. — brighterorange (talk) 05:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. When a series has such a legacy; so many titles, it needs to be easy to update. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It provides facts, and will do what is possible to keep them as accurate as possible at all times. Scepia 06:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Subst but do not delete. Look, when this was implemented, it was important NOT because the number was expected to change in the future, but because it WAS actively changing every few weeks, at some points EVERY DAY! Now, the number is stable, and we don’t need the template. I vote that we recognize this template as a special case, allowing it to exist, but only using it( at least, in its current widespread usage) during that window between the unveiling of each generation’s first new Pokémon, and the confirmation of the generation total upon release of the new games. --WikidSmaht (talk) 23:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per the above discussion, I plan to depopulate this template from individual Pokemon articles if this discussion results in the template being kept. I encourage discussion on this. Ral315 (talk) 04:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    I would oppose that. I can give a good number of reasons but I feel this is not the approporate place for it. --Cat out 00:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Template:Pokestart

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was deletion. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 01:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Pokestart (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This is not a good idea. Templates are not meant to write articles, and we should not be encouraging a copypaste approach. See somewhat related TfD at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 December 10#Template:Pokerefs. -Amarkov blahedits 05:08, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Several people have written at the Pokémon Collaborative Project and several of the individual Pokémon species articles, explaining that the template is useless and that if people really wanted to know the information in the Pokestart paragraph, they should just click the blue Pokémon wikilink and read about Pokémon there. The grammar in the Pokestart paragraph consists of very long sentences separated by many, many commas and dashes that make it difficult to read smoothly. --Brandon Dilbeck 05:15, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom and above. -- Ned Scott 06:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom and Brandon Dilbeck. It is basically a copy paste of an opening paragraph for the main Pokemon article with little direct relevence to the character specific articles. Resolute 06:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Template:2006-07 NHL season

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was deletion. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 01:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:2006-07 NHL season (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Template was created for a list of articles documenting results of all games for each month of the NHL season. Those articles were deleted in this AfD debate. With these articles removed, the template becomes redundant with Template:2006-07 NHL season by team, and thus is not needed. --Resolute 01:26, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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