Talk:Cyrus the Great

Conflicting dates for Cyrus II's ascension of the throne and his father's death

please note that:

Cyrus II

• also known as Cyrus the Great
• son of Cambyses I

Cambyses I

• also known as Atradates
• father of Cyrus II

Here's the root of the conflicting dates:

excerpt from Cyrus the Great: "Cyrus the Great succeeded to the throne in 559 BC following his father's death"

excerpt from Cambyses I: "...his original name was Atradates, and he was wounded and later died in the Battle of the Persian Border which he, with his son, fought against Astyages. It occurred in about 551 BC..."

I cannot find any evidence that clears up these conflicting dates. In my mind, there are two outstanding questions:

1. when and in what manner did Cyrus II ascend the throne of the Achaemenid Kingdom?
2. when did Cambyses I / Atradates die?

After researching these topics as thoroughly as possible, my conclusions are:

1. Cyrus II ascended the throne of the Achaemenid Kingdom in 559bce after his father, Cambyses I, abdicated.
2. Cambyses I / Atradates died at the Battle of the Persian Border in 551bce.

Can anyone provide evidence to substantiate or refute these conclusions?

Reliable sources and scholars

HistoryofIran: Ma'arefat Al-Maad – Ma'ad Shanasi is not a reliable source; nor are Maulana Maududi, Abul Kalam Azad, and Allameh Tabatabaei scholars by modern definitions. If you wish to keep adding these to the article, take it to dispute settlement. Achar Sva (talk) 12:31, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Was it so hard to say that from the start instead of randomly removing information? We have edit summaries for a reason. Fine you got a point, I won't object. But if you didn't have, you are the one to take it to the dispute settlement, not me (I did not 'add' anything either, I simply restored the original revision) - read the rules. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:40, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I see I owe you an apology - I was under the impression that I'd given an edit summary, but I see I hadn't. I do think, however, that you could have looked at those "sources" that I deleted - actually just one source, www.motaghin.com, and the fact that it's in Persian would be enough in itself to rule it out. Achar Sva (talk) 12:47, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I did, but my eyes are sometimes whack in front of the screen. I only just realized when you said it. It is unreliable indeed, but not because of the fact that it is in Persian. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:50, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

False narrations of Cyrus the Great's Death

i have joined Wikipedia for 5 days and the first day i have tried to make an edit on this page in the "Death" section. while i have cited reliable sources, which are visible for all to see below, the two users "HistoryofIran" and "Wretchskull" tried to revert my edits to a false narrative, that not only is false, but is also disgusting and insulting to the people of Iran and our rich heritage, and to the father of our nation Prohpet-king, Cyrus the Great. i have been reported by these 2 users to the administration board, and since i started editing for mere one day, i did not know how any of the rules worked in this site, and instead of having an impartial juror presiding over this dispute, i have been blocked by the administration on the reports of "Wretchskull" due to his accusations of and i summarize "false narrations" , i have been trying to defend myself eversince and it is there for all to see in the talk section of my page. i admit i have been new to all of this and i did not know how any of the rules in here worked, i have simply seen a false narration about the the father of my nation which would make the blood of any True iranian and zoroasterian Boil. even though i have been pretty thorough with my sources, where i have literally cited sources, by chapter, page and passage, i was still accused of "citing unreliable sources", that is why i decided to write down my original edit down here for all to see, so that you can judge whether or not my claim is true or not, and since this comment was edited by someone (do not know who, but can be one of the two users that were attacking me as i mentioned above) , i have rewritten my original draft so that it can be visible for all to see:

——— Death ———

The alleged Time of Cyrus the Great's Death reported by Hellenic Historians is said to have been in 529 B.C.E , in his 28th or 30th year of rule over Anshan, and 22nd years after the conquest of Median Empire. There are different stories about the death of Cyrus the Great. Most people who wrote about his death have pointed out that it happened in a battle with the Scythian tribes to the North East of his Empire. But there is a dispute about the name of the tribe that he fought with or the wound or blow that resulted in his death. Herodotus says it was the Massagetae Tribe, Ctesias says it was the Derbices Tribe, Berossus says it was the Dahae tribe, all of which are tribes that lived in the North East of Iranian Mainland (from today’s Golestan province of Iran to Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan). And the result of the battle is also unclear. By Herodotus’s account, Cyrus the Great’s Army was defeated, by Ctesias’s account he won the battle with the help of a Scythian tribe. However Herodotus goes on about it in length, in what seems to be a myth more than the truth, stating that Cyrus the Great had created a ruse in which he feigned a retreat from one of his base camps, while leaving behind a great deal of wine for the Massagetae forces to find, which they had become drunk on and lost control of their senses, and then Cyrus the Great attacks the drunken forces and defeats them, and amongst them was the Son of the Massagetae’s Queen, Spargapises who was the General of that army. And after his loss, he demands to be released of his bonds so that he can commit suicide in his shame. But the Queen of Massagetae Tomyris leads a second force against Cyrus the Great which Based on Herodotus’s story will ultimately result in the defeat and Death of Cyrus the Great.

However, Ctesias (a Greek Physician who stayed at the court of the Persian king Artaxerxes II from 404 to 398/397 B.C.E) completely Disagrees with the Accounts of Herodotus and accuses him of falsehoods in many passages of his book "Persica", and calls him an inventor of fables. In his account, the Death of Cyrus the Great was the Result of his battle with the Derbices, in which he entails the event in great detail in the 11th Chapter of his book: “Cyrus marched against the Derbices, whose king was Amoraeus. The Derbices suddenly brought up some elephants which had been kept in ambush, and put Cyrus' cavalry to flight. Cyrus himself fell from his horse, and an Indian wounded him mortally with a javelin under the thigh. The Indians fought on the side of the Derbices and supplied them with elephants. Cyrus' friends took him up while he was still alive and returned to camp. Many Persians and Derbices were slain, to the number of 10,000 on each side.

Amorges, when he heard of what had happened to Cyrus, in great haste went to the assistance of the Persians with 20,000 Sacan cavalry. In a subsequent engagement, the Persians and Sacae gained a brilliant victory, Amoraeus, the king of the Derbices, and his two sons being slain. Thirty thousand Derbicans and 9,000 Persians fell in the battle. The country then submitted to Cyrus.

Cyrus, when near his death, declared his elder son Cambyses king, his younger son Tanyoxarces governor of Bactria, Chorasmia, Parthia, and Carmania, free from tribute. Of the children of Spitamas, he appointed Spitaces Satrap of the Derbices, Megabernes of the Barcanians, bidding them obey their mother in everything. He also endeavored to make them friends with Amorges, bestowing his blessing on those who should remain on friendly terms with one another, and a curse upon those who first did wrong. With these words he died, three days after he had been wounded, after a reign of thirty years.”

However the Russian historian, Muhammad Dandamayev, calls these accounts out for being no more than a dramatic novelization of the event, rather than the Truth of how it has transpired. Despite a lack of actual account of Cyrus’s Death, it is clear that he was buried in the city of Pasargadae. This Fact will debunk the accounts of Herodotus, however, it is also speculated that the Body of Cyrus the Great could’ve been taken back from the Enemy and returned to Pasargadae for burial. American Scholar Richard Nelson Frye, calls Herodotus’s remarks Made up and Fake, but states that the Conquest of Middle Asia by Cyrus the Great is Truthful, since the farthest city in Scythia is called Cyropolis, which is named After Cyrus the Great and Proves his conquest of Scythia and Middle Asia.

Ctesias also mentions in his Book, that Cambyses sent the Body of his father with Bagapates to Pasargadae to be Buried. And this account actually contradicts the whole story of the battle between Cyrus the Great and Tomyris. Because if Tomyris was successful in defeating and killing Cyrus the Great and beheading him, then how the Achaemenids were able to recover his body with a Defeated army that had “200000 casualties” as Herodotus described it, and then return it to their Capital ?

Another account of Cyrus the Great’s Death by Hellenic Historians comes from Xenophon who contradicts the others and says in his book “Cyropaedia”, that Cyrus the Great is informed of his death in a dream in his sleep, and after saying his prayers and stating his will to his family, friends and his court, he passes away on his death bed due to natural causes.

And the Last account of Cyrus the Great’s Death is by Berossus who only states that Cyrus the Great was killed, fighting the Dahae tribe in the Northwest of the Headwaters of the Syr Darya.

In the recent Archaeological Discoveries, it is found out that in the 12th of August 530 B.C.E a Babylonian woman by the name of Borsippa, named one of her relatives a plot of land near the Ishtar Gate. The date of this clay tablet, written in Akkadian Cuneiform, showed “the Ninth year of Cyrus, The King of nations”. In the 31st of August of the same Year in the Capital of Babylon, a man sold his mule. The date of this tablet is related to “the beginning year of the Reign of Cambyses, King of Nations”. These 2 tablets may not appear significant at first glance, but in fact, they prove that Cyrus the Great had passed away in the time between 12th and 31th of August, 530 B.C.E or at least that is when the news of his passing and ascendency of Cambyses to the Throne had reached Babylon. this discovery, proves beyond doubt that the accounts of Herodotus and Ctesias are false and in fact the date alleged by those Hellenic historians as the date of Cyrus the Great’s death, is false. Which in turn proves that their accounts of Cyrus the Great’s Death is Fictional and are not historically accurate.

Through the Accounts of multiple historians mentioned above and the discovery of the aforementioned tablets, two things can be confirmed: one is that the Conquest of Scythia had been a Success and had happened during the Time of Cyrus the Great since the City of Cyropolis had been founded by Cyrus the Great in 544 B.C.E and marked the end of the Scythia and Middle Asia; and two, the fact that Cyrus the Great had been killed in battle in the Years alleged by Hellenic Historians is a falsehood, since the alleged year of his death, reported by the said historians, does not match the Actual year of Cyrus the Great’s passing and the Ascendency of Cambyses to the Throne based on the years mentioned in the Tablets Founded by Archaeologists. Soldier of Ahura Mazda (talk) 12:22, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

User has been blocked indefinitely.

References

@Soldier of Ahura Mazda: what's the source for "These 2 tablets may not appear significant at first glance, but in fact, they prove that Cyrus the Great had passed away in the time between 12th and 31th of August, 530 B.C.E or at least that is when the news of his passing and ascendency" - at the least we'd have to attribute that, not state it as fact. Ditto the two things that can be confirmed, who says that? Please read WP:NOR and WP:VERIFY. We really need secondary sources for most if not all of this. Doug Weller talk 14:16, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

What era style should this article use?

I noticed that it happened quite a few times that people changed the era style of this article from AD/BC to CE/BCE. Per MOS:STYLERET, I think this is something that should be discussed on the talk page. Although I am not at all familiar with this article (I am merely a pending changes reviewer), using the CE/BCE style seems appropriate to me because this article does not have much to do with Christianity. ―JochemvanHees (talk) 21:47, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Yah, I agree with you. History of Asia^{Want to talk?} 22:31, 30 April 2021 (UTC).

It's not about what religion is present, it's about the wiki MoS which says original style gets used. Wikipedia:Manual of Style very first section says "retaining existing styles". Also, in this article 2 different styles were used. the MoS also says use the same style throughout.

"BC/AD" is not about Christianity so much as it is about long-established use by historians of the Western world. It's completely viable, and it is only in modern times that certain cranks got their ire up about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.44.55 (talk) 08:01, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Cyrus the Great (Persian Drawing).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:38, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Suggest image change

I suggest that the existing image, which is a painting of a winged man from Wallis, be replaced with a photograph taken of the lithograph itself in Pasargad. Sardar ^talk 15:47, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

How did Cyrus get his name if he was originally named Agradates

"Cyrus's father, Cambyses 1st, named him Cyrus after his grandfather, " KJV Isaiah 45 3,4 ---Here it states that God surnamed Cyrus. Verse 4--"I have surnamed thee" God only named 4 people in the scripitures (Cyrus, Issac, Solomon, Josiah-- KJV Companion Bible's sidebar concordance) Although a Persian Cyrus allowed the Temple walls and foundation laid by Nehimiah in Jerusalem.

KJV: Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego are figures from the biblical Book of Daniel, primarily chapter 3. In the narrative, the three Hebrew men are thrown into a fiery furnace by Nebuchadnezzar II, King of Babylon Cyrus conguered Babylon (as well as Media, Lydia) Cyrus = "possess thou the furnace" (Strongs Concordance, Hebrew dictionary) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.134.101.41 (talk) 13:24, 8 January 2022 (UTC)