Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Future Korean War (2nd nomination)
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Users interested in merging content elsewhere may contact me; I'll restore the article to userspace for you to work with. --BDD (talk) 17:51, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
AfDs for this article:
- Future Korean War (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
complete speculation, belongs on a blog, not an encyclopedia. There is already a page for OPLAN 5027, which already contains enough WP:Crystal Mztourist (talk) 10:47, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2013 July 4. Snotbot t • c » 11:15, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete as an original essay and violation of the spirit of WP:CRYSTAL (hopefully and presumably this event never comes to pass). Serious Korean geopolitics is already being written about at North Korea–South Korea relations, for example; there is no need for a compendium of the opinions and "predictions" of publicists and talking heads. Carrite (talk) 15:36, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per WP:CRYSTAL. Speculation about a future conflict doesn't constitute an encyclopedia article but an essay....William 20:23, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per some in the previous AfD - WP:CRYSTAL only applies to unverifiable speculation, unlike this article - consider it like World War III. It could use a better title and better writing, but the subject passes WP:N. Ansh666 03:26, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I've notified all participants in the last AfD. Ansh666 03:50, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep in agreement with User:Ansh666's above comment, as well as previous AfD remarks.--ɱ (talk) 03:57, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete and merge I gave some input to the previous attempt to delete this. I originally identified the OPLAN article and advocated that OPLAN take its place in the first nomination. It is also better sourced, in terms of actual plans and doctrines. I would suggest a new title though.Irondome (talk) 04:08, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- 'Delete, it is still a highly speculative article with no basis in reality. The "predictions" listed are simply SWAG, and poor ones with that. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 05:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep "speculation" is not a valid reason to delete something. Speculation by individual editors is not appropriate in articles, of course, but speculation by reliable sources is. CRYSTAL does not prevent us from including verifiable information about (potential) future events. Possibly this could be merged, but such a solution is not compatible with deletion. Hut 8.5 09:00, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Read what WP Crystal actually says, there is very little verified information in this article and its all contained in OPLAN 5027 already Mztourist (talk) 11:40, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I have read what CRYSTAL says, thank you. It says that "Predictions, speculation, forecasts and theories stated by reliable, expert sources or recognised entities in a field may be included". The information in this article falls into this category. The article is pretty well sourced, and a number of the sources are clearly in a position to know what they are talking about. Hut 8.5 16:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- There are 4 sources quoted for the predictions - Wachter, Hitchens, Air University and Country Risk Solutions. Christopher Hitchens was not an expert on Korea or military strategy, I havent been able to find anything about Paul Wachter that establishes him as an expert on Korea or military strategy so that leaves 2 sources which can easily go into the OPLAN page. All the rest of the article is just fluff to justify its existence. Mztourist (talk) 04:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The quote from Hitchens isn't really a prediction, rather he's making an observation about the effect of this potential war on US policy towards North Korea. OPLAN 5027 is a specific operational plan, it isn't appropriate to include Korean War predictions in its article unless they are specifically predictions about the likely consequences of OPLAN 5027. You're also ignoring the discussion of US war games in that section, and the (very likely) possibility that there are other sources talking about the subject that aren't included. Hut 8.5 08:40, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes so Hitchens isn't an expert and isn't even speaking about the "future war" so the reference is irrelevant. War games go on all the time on both side of the border as contingency planning and that should be covered on the OPLAN 5027 page. The fact is that OPLAN 5027 is the best guess by the US and South Korea of how a conflict might break out and how to deal with it and as there are no North Korean sources available that is the most appropriate place for the few sources for this "future war" speculation to reside. Mztourist (talk) 11:52, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The OPLAN 5027 article is about OPLAN 5027. Predictions about a future Korean War that do not involve OPLAN 5027 do not belong there, and there is no reason to arbitrarily exclude all other predictions, even if OPLAN 5027 is the best guess. In any case if material from this article is going to be used in some other article then the page cannot be deleted. (If you do want to merge the content somewhere else, which I wouldn't object to, then Division of Korea would be a better target.) Hut 8.5 12:35, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Lets wait and see what the consensus isMztourist (talk) 13:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Ideally, the best aspects of the existing article with the most relevant sources should be merged with the OPLAN article. As I said last time. Yawn. It would need a major restructuring and rewrite. Would suggest title; Future Korean war plans and forecasts 1953-2013 Irondome (talk) 00:04, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Frankly that sounds like a fanboy blog which is what we're trying to avoid here, OPLAN is real, the two sourced expert references can be put into the OPLAN page as speculation as to how a conflict could ariseMztourist (talk) 07:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I have been pushing for OPLAN since the first time this came up for deletion back in April. As I originally suggested OPLAN as a suitable merge your rudeness is not hugely appreciated mate. I assume you have not read the original nomination for deletion. I am glad you have come on board to my original idea. Not a great title no, but maybe we do need a fresh and more expansive title. In fact it is essential. OPLAN is far too esoteric for a casual search. Irondome (talk) 16:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Ideally, the best aspects of the existing article with the most relevant sources should be merged with the OPLAN article. As I said last time. Yawn. It would need a major restructuring and rewrite. Would suggest title; Future Korean war plans and forecasts 1953-2013 Irondome (talk) 00:04, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Lets wait and see what the consensus isMztourist (talk) 13:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The OPLAN 5027 article is about OPLAN 5027. Predictions about a future Korean War that do not involve OPLAN 5027 do not belong there, and there is no reason to arbitrarily exclude all other predictions, even if OPLAN 5027 is the best guess. In any case if material from this article is going to be used in some other article then the page cannot be deleted. (If you do want to merge the content somewhere else, which I wouldn't object to, then Division of Korea would be a better target.) Hut 8.5 12:35, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes so Hitchens isn't an expert and isn't even speaking about the "future war" so the reference is irrelevant. War games go on all the time on both side of the border as contingency planning and that should be covered on the OPLAN 5027 page. The fact is that OPLAN 5027 is the best guess by the US and South Korea of how a conflict might break out and how to deal with it and as there are no North Korean sources available that is the most appropriate place for the few sources for this "future war" speculation to reside. Mztourist (talk) 11:52, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The quote from Hitchens isn't really a prediction, rather he's making an observation about the effect of this potential war on US policy towards North Korea. OPLAN 5027 is a specific operational plan, it isn't appropriate to include Korean War predictions in its article unless they are specifically predictions about the likely consequences of OPLAN 5027. You're also ignoring the discussion of US war games in that section, and the (very likely) possibility that there are other sources talking about the subject that aren't included. Hut 8.5 08:40, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- There are 4 sources quoted for the predictions - Wachter, Hitchens, Air University and Country Risk Solutions. Christopher Hitchens was not an expert on Korea or military strategy, I havent been able to find anything about Paul Wachter that establishes him as an expert on Korea or military strategy so that leaves 2 sources which can easily go into the OPLAN page. All the rest of the article is just fluff to justify its existence. Mztourist (talk) 04:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I have read what CRYSTAL says, thank you. It says that "Predictions, speculation, forecasts and theories stated by reliable, expert sources or recognised entities in a field may be included". The information in this article falls into this category. The article is pretty well sourced, and a number of the sources are clearly in a position to know what they are talking about. Hut 8.5 16:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Read what WP Crystal actually says, there is very little verified information in this article and its all contained in OPLAN 5027 already Mztourist (talk) 11:40, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per WP:CRYSTAL. Only future events that are certain to happen should have Wikipedia entries. This article opens up itself to too much speculation and original research. JOJ Hutton 03:32, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per WP:CRYSTAL. The main information of Futere Korean War is only "Prediction", and also, there are enough information on OPLAN 5027. I cannot agree why this article should exist independently to seperate with OPLAN 5027. -- Jjw (talk) 14:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.