Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jangale Asfalt

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Once sockpuppets and SPAs are discounted, there is a pretty clear consensus here. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 05:33, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jangale Asfalt

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Lacks substantial, non-passing, multiple RS coverage in gnews and gbooks in English or Persian. Its only ref is to iTunes (do we even allow such commercial iTunes refs?). Epeefleche (talk) 19:00, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:05, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:06, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep - This album is a landmark in Persian rap music, and a song from it is featured in a film that won two awards at the Cannes Film Festval. Also, important Iranian hip-hop producer, film score musician, and experimental musician, Mahdyar Aghajani mentioned the persecution Hichkas suffered as a result of releasing this film, in Aghajani's interview which was published on Iranian.com, a primarily English language website that receives respectable numbers of visitors in English speaking countries on a daily basis.jigsawnovich (talk) 11:20, 27 January 2012 (UTC)^{Jigsawnovich has been blocked indef for abusing multiple accounts.}[reply]

Jig -- you just added to the article 3 1 unreliable sources ~~-- a) an Itunes ref, b) a Youtube ref, and c) and~~ a ref to a self-described "community site" that lacks indicia of being an RS. We can't base notability on non-RSs such as iTunes and Youtube. As to your remaining ref -- it does not support that this album is notable -- at best it relates to possible notability of 1 song of the 10 on the album, though actually it relates not to the song but to a music video, and then again it relates not to the music video but to a movie that the music video appears in. The song was not nominated for an award, and did not win an award; nor did the music video.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Epe -- "Epeefleche" is not a music video, it's on the soundtrack and Hichkas performs it in the Cannes award-winning feature film which received theatrical release in the United States of America--the country in which English Wikipedia was founded.jigsawnovich (talk) 17:40, 27 January 2012 (UTC)^{Jigsawnovich has been blocked indef for abusing multiple accounts.}[reply]

I see that you've changed the article now, which had previously stated (in a sentence that you had previously edited, and provided a ref for) that it was a music video. That's fine. My point still stands. No award was given to this album. Nor was this album nominated for any award. Nor are the pertinent statements in the article supported by RSs. Notability is not inherited. Plus -- the lone song that was in this film was 1 of 15 songs in the film ... it wasn't even a major part of the soundtrack.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:51, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Epe -- you just made a false accusation. The Itunes ref and Youtube ref were already there. I added the Cannes website reference and the Iranian.com reference. jigsawnovich (talk) 17:20, 27 January 2012 (UTC)^{Jigsawnovich has been blocked indef for abusing multiple accounts.}[reply]

Apologies -- I'll assume you have no problem in me deleting them, then. Apologies.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Epe -- any claim that the Cannes Film Festival's own website is an "unreliable source" is laughable. jigsawnovich (talk) 17:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)^{Jigsawnovich has been blocked indef for abusing multiple accounts.}[reply]

I didn't claim that the Cannes Film Festival website is not an RS. See my comments above. As to that ref, however, as I point out above, it has its own problems.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Epe -- I notice that you seem to be targeting Iranian rappers in particular lately. Although Wikipedia rigor is admirable, targeting a particular nationality or ethnic group is not. Myself, I'm more interested in adding references than in deleting articles. And I'm in a position now to write about rap, rock, and pop musicians in many Middle Eastern countries, including Israel. Are there any you recommend? jigsawnovich (talk) 18:15, 27 January 2012 (UTC)^{Jigsawnovich has been blocked indef for abusing multiple accounts.}[reply]

I've been targeting musicians/albums in general, and focusing -- when I find a problem -- on related ones. You'll see a host of albums/singers at AfD who as it turns out are Finnish for this reason as well (see, eg, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Riittäähän noita linnassa). This album seems to be related to a number of similarly non-notable articles. You seem to be connected to a number of them, arguing "strong keep" on the basis of non-published articles, and the like ... which is not an argument that is supported by wp policy. If you are looking to flesh out musician bios, the stub bios would be the ones in greatest need of assistance.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I just sent an email to my editor to find out the exact date that the magazine with my feature article about Bahram Nouraei will hit the news stands. As for "Seeking Refuge: Mahdyar Flees the Crackdown on Iran's Hip Hop," it was published, has been read 2,753 times and has been shared on Facebook 16 times.Jigsawnovich (talk) 19:37, 27 January 2012 (UTC)^{Jigsawnovich has been blocked indef for abusing multiple accounts.}[reply]

Thanks. Blogs shared on Facebook -- even those shared as many as 16 times -- are not RSs.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Seeking Refuge: Mahdyar Flees the Crackdown on Iran's Hip Hop," was published as a feature article on the main page of the site. It is not a blog post. That's your second false accusation for today. You have already made two prima facia false statements here today. Epeefleche, you are proving that you are unreliable. jigsawnovich (talk) 20:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)^{Jigsawnovich has been blocked indef for abusing multiple accounts.}[reply]

The site -- self-described as a "community site", and only listing one person on its staff as best I can tell -- certainly seems to be a non-RS blog to me.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:43, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The publisher and editor of Iranian.com, who I submitted "Seeking Refuge: Mahdyar Flees the Crackdown on Iran's Hip Hop" to, and who published my article as a feature on the main page is Jahanshah Javid. His CV includes: Stringer, BBC Persian Service, Washington, DC, July 1998-March 2001, Iran Business Monitor, New York, 1994-96, Aftab cable television, New York, 1994-96. (Freelance), BBC Persian Service, 1991-96. (Freelance), The Associated Press, Tehran, summer 1991. (Freelance), Daily Lobo, University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, 1990-92, Tehran Times, ~1988-89 (Freelance), Soroush magazine, photographer, ~1982-85. (Freelance), Kayhan International, Tehran, ~1982-85. (Freelance), Crescent International, London. ~1982-88. (Freelance), Iranian news agency, IRNA, Tehran (1981-85, 1988-89), London, (1985-88), New York/United Nations, (1992-94). http://www.iranian.com/Writers/jjavid.html jigsawnovich (talk) 20:49, 27 January 2012 (UTC)^{Jigsawnovich has been blocked indef for abusing multiple accounts.}[reply]

Comment Noted that Jahanshah Javid is a prominent Iranian journalist. But I think that Iranian.com could not be considered as a RS, despite having an article on English Wikipedia.Farhikht (talk) 09:18, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. Articles appearing on the main page clearly have editorial oversight. 89.100.194.85 (talk) 12:51, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. Welcome to wikipedia. As to your comment -- every indication from the website itself is that this is a one-man-show, where the same fellow is the blog's entire staff.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Plainly the prominent journalist is providing the editorial oversight for this "blog" as you are rather suddenly calling it. (89.100.194.85 above) 86.44.55.100 (talk) 07:56, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is a blog; see The politics of cyberconflict. And the site lists as its staff Jahanshah Javid, Publisher, Editor, and Writer.[1][2] It is a self-described "community site". Our policy WP:SELFPUBLISH states in part: "self-published media, such as ... personal websites, ... personal or group blogs ... are largely not acceptable as sources.... Take care when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:36, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Really now? The first google scholar result calls it "one of the most serious online magazines",[3] and Nazeri's much-cited "Imagined Cyber Communities, Iranians and the Internet" says "created September 1995, is one of the few [Iranian internet sites] organized as a magazine". Javid could fairly be called an expert in the field and has been cited as such by the NYT[4] and NPR.[5]. 86.44.61.61 (talk) 02:49, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Non-RS blogs can be notable, and this one is (nobody is disputing that). But it is still a blog. And it is still self-published, with a one-person publisher/editor/writer on staff. It indicates as much itself, as reflected above--I don't see how one can quibble with the site itself. Our policy with regard to such sites is set forth above.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So your position is that Javid "self-published" someone else, and that he is not an expert in the field as set out in that policy page, and you don't see how it can be quibbled with? 86.44.40.73 (talk) 02:44, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Hichkas was on the big screen at the Film Society of Lincoln Center performing "Ekhtelaf" from the Jangale Asfalt album, in April of 2010, as No One Knows About Persian Cats was "the centerpiece screening of a Ghobadi retrospective," according to Variety. Mark Jenkins, of National Public Radio, wrote that, "The plot's whirlwind tour of clandestine music showcases, among others...a rapper called Hichkas (Persian for "nobody") who celebrates mean-streets Tehran as if it were Compton." [3] Proshot Kalami, author of Iran’s Reel Spectre: The Cinematic Epic of a Nation (Chicago University Press/Seagull Calcutta, London, New York), wrote in Cinemascope Independent Film Journal that "Ghobadi features “The Difference” in (aka Ekhtelaf) by Hichkas," in No One Knows About Persian Cats, and "that song seals his point of view as an artist and says it all, both for him as well as, perhaps, Ghobadi’s film."[4] jigsawnovich (talk) 08:13, 29 January 2012 (UTC)^{Jigsawnovich has been blocked indef for abusing multiple accounts.}[reply]
Strong Keep And I mean it, Here is my last edit, see if this link can help as a reliable source, For the record's artist, date and producer information. We can go solve the other parts one by one. Persian Clique (talk) 20:23, 29 January 2012 (UTC)— Persian Clique (contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. ^{Persian Clique has been blocked indef as a sockpuppet.}[reply]

Note; Sock Block:Persian Clique has been blocked as a sockpuppet.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:55, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. Welcome to wikipedia. Thanks for contributing with these, your first two edits. As to Discogs, it is not a reliable source, and therefore does not at all indicate the subject's notability.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:21, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The fact is that, It's hard to make music in Iran. And press does not fully support such acts, I mean government does not want the vocalists "in case rappers". I have found this by my own experience, if you have the music without the vocals you can work much better. This is the main reason which this album is better known by people outside it's emerging country [Iran]. Of course it is so strange for people from other countries that simply don't know much about rules and regulations in Iran. After the ban in Iran even the media and press did not aired/printed anything related to the article to keep it unknown, and in my opinion writing about these kinds od topic on wiki is way too much complicated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Persian Clique (talk • contribs) 22:21, 29 January 2012 (UTC) ^{Persian Clique has been blocked indef as a sockpuppet.}[reply]

Note; Sock Block:Persian Clique has been blocked as a sockpuppet.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:55, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment All music in Iran is supposed to be submitted to the Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance. Have a look at their website. http://farhang.gov.ir/home-en.html Do they look like gung-ho music lovers? ;) "Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said today that music is 'not compatible' with the values of the Islamic republic, and should not be practised or taught in the country," Saeed Kamali Dehghan reported in The Guardian. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/02/iran-supreme-leader-music-islam And the Iranian government has a reputation for detaining and torturing journalists. You're sure to find lots of information about that here. http://www.iranhumanrights.org/ It's amazing any modern music gets made in Iran under those conditions. And a journalist such as myself who covers the Iranian music scene must be extremely careful about what each article says and when it is released, because one misstep could literally result in someone being arrested and tortured back in Iran. jigsawnovich (talk) 23:20, 29 January 2012 (UTC)^{Jigsawnovich has been blocked indef for abusing multiple accounts.}[reply]

That supports BLP concerns some might have with such articles, especially those that lack clear RS support.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:10, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or merge to Mahdyar Aghajani. 3 of the 4 references don't mention the album. The fourth gives two passing mentions and appears to be from a user generated content site. Tigerboy1966 (talk) 11:22, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Migrating Music, ed. Toynbee, Dueck, Routledge, 2011 p. 98 (Asphalt Jungle), p. 100 ("Ekhtelaf"), p. 110 (footnote about his use of Googoosh, which is in "Oon Manam"). The Music of the Children of Revolution p. 72,[6] see "Dideh Va Del", "Ekhtelaf", "Vatan Parast" and "Oon Manam", all from Asphalt Jungle. Sholeh Johnston, "Persian Rap", Journal of Persianate Studies[7] snippet view searching "hichkas asphalt" on Google Scholar: "Another example of the way that traditional music has infiltrated rap is the first track of Hichkas' album Jangal-e Asphalt (Asphalt jungle)..." Iran Focus [8] NYT blog The Lede[9] Tempo[10] 86.44.60.243 (talk) 01:50, 1 February 2012 (UTC)— 86.44.60.243 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

I don't believe that passing coverage such as footnotes and snippets supplies the requisite verifiable substantial, non-trivial, non-passing coverage.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:30, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't like snippets you should purchase the paper at the link provided. I myself have not done so, but taking a snippet view for passing coverage is a rather basic error. If you don't believe footnotes can be non-trivial, there are ten other instances of coverage cited that are not footnotes, including two other pages of the same book the footnote is in. Are you quite sure this could not be notable? TIME called him "one of the country's best known rappers" in 2009. Until 2011 this was his only album! 86.44.40.73 (talk) 03:31, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

While snippets are not the same as passing coverage, they do not provide enough context to be used to establish notability. You can use them as a garnish, but not as a main course. Tigerboy1966 10:26, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Weak Keep - The article needs some RS, it may can satisfy WP:NALBUMS, I'm not sure. I found a report from "Behzad Bolur" who is a notable reporter of BBC Persian TV channel (although it doesn't have a Wikipedia article!), he briefly introduces this album (I added it to the article). I agree that the current references are not reliable enough (I got the BBC link from Persian Wikipedia), but the article is paining from lack of references now and better sources could be find by a searching through Google. Another thing that I wanted to say, one of its tracks have been used in the notable movie, No One Knows About Persian Cats , soundtrack, besides, Hichkas is a notable singer himself. Anyway the article can be kept with mercy! ●Mehran ^Debate● 19:41, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and Redirect to Hichkas. Sources exist, but appear a bit "fragile" to substain a separate article. Merging (at least for now) to the page of the related author could be a reasonable solution. Cavarrone (talk) 08:25, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 18:12, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Socking, etc. FYI, it has just been determined that Jigsaw -- who registered a Strong Keep !vote above -- is a sockmaster. She has now been blocked indef. Also, it seems that in the past Jigsawnovich actively solicited support -- on iranian.com, of all places ... the site mentioned above -- for her efforts to keep wp articles from being deleted at AfD. And she more recently posted this at iranian.com, vis-a-vis a current AfD. And, as mentioned above, the other Strong Keep !voter here -- Persian Clique -- has just been blocked indef as a sock.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:06, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - (or merge to a relevent article) - Not enough third party, reliable sources to establish notability on its own. Sergecross73 msg me 15:03, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Article fails to establish notability. Special thanks to nominator for helping enforce Wikipedia policy as it relates to WP:SOCKS. SaveATreeEatAVegan 04:03, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ankit Maity^Talk_Contribs 12:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Relisting comment: Even discounting the two "strong keep" sockpuppet !votes, I still think there is no consensus to delete the article. Relisting a third time to generate more clear consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, B music ian 01:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Nomination is sound and Tigerboy1966 has specifically pointed out the flaws in the references. I'd also like to state that I am in no way connected to the Iranian Government (though rumours persist that I'm an agent of the Mysterons). ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹^Speak 11:29, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Further comment Just had an IP user try to close as no consensus (no other edits). ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹^Speak 11:29, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.