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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Reyne2 (talk | contribs) at 09:32, 24 February 2022 (→Broken edit?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Give THIS the Russo-Ukrainian War title, change the other one to skirmishes or something

2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:48F7:77BC:3B5:6E9B (talk) 03:52, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK, there's been no Ukrainian military resistance. GoodDay (talk) 04:17, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:B49C:49F7:E426:DECC (talk) 04:34, 24 February 2022 (UTC) https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/t010lw/gunfire_between_russian_and_ukrainian_forces_in/ gunfighting. They are fighting back[reply]

Russo-Ukrainian War is the overview article, which remains valid. This article is on the 2022 phase, which is an invasion of Ukraine by Russia according to almost all reliable sources. There are no serious sources claiming that Ukrainian forces have attacked any internationally recognised Russian territory (apart from Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis). Boud (talk) 04:58, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, the Russo ukranian war is a protracted conflict since 2014. The past few months have been an escalation of tensions, culminating in a large scale Russian offensive. (JayPlaysStuff | talk to me | What I've been up to) 06:02, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Map of territorial disputes

The relevance needs to be explained in the text, but if we do keep it Moldovia and Transnistria should be added to it. BilledMammal (talk) 04:16, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, perhaps all the 14 former Soviet republics, besides Russia itself :( GoodDay (talk) 04:19, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Moldovia and Transnistria because they are the only frozen conflict involving Russia that is not currently included on the map. I'm not sure we need the other former Soviet republics, as most of them don't add useful information to the map. BilledMammal (talk) 04:42, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed it from the article while its relevance is not explained; while the frozen conflicts are likely to be relevant, and the expansion of NATO is relevant, it needs to be explained in the text - and I'm not sure that the chosen map is ideal to demonstrate the latter, as it doesn't demonstrate the change over time. Further, I don't believe the members of the CSTO are relevant; only Russia and Belarus are. BilledMammal (talk) 04:49, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing for Belarusian involvement

Do we have sourcing for Belarusian support for the invasion now? 166.181.80.2 (talk) 05:29, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

CNN and Fox reported that the Ukraine gov't has reported combined Belarus and Russian attacks on northern border. 50.111.36.47 (talk) 05:42, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Most recent from CNN says: "The US Department of Defense is tracking the reported incursion of troops from Belarus into Ukraine, a US defense official said Thursday. It was not clear if the troops were only Russian or also Belarusian, the source said." See here. Gazelle55 (talk) 06:04, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
At the very least, Belarus is allowing invasion forces from its territory. That counts as support for sure. Juxlos (talk) 06:05, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is absolutely notable and it is support, but at a well-developed page like Syrian civil war, support is indicated separately from actual belligerents. Gazelle55 (talk) 06:12, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Situation is still developing rapidly and is very new, let’s just wait a little bit to see Blackout8771 (talk) 06:39, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Control" vs "Occupation" in infobox

Isn't this a bit biased?--47.33.186.77 (talk) 05:45, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all. It is always used whenever a foreign force militarily controls a sovereign territory --MrMineHeads (talk) 06:01, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No evidence of invasion yet

No real source or evidence of invasion have been provided, missiles strikes are not invading. Where are the actual evidence (footage, etc) of Russian troops in Ukraine outside of Donbass? Nebakin (talk) 06:06, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You are being ridiculous. This sort of talk is not constructive to the improvement of the article - grind your axe elsewhere.50.111.36.47 (talk) 06:47, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How not? Why are you afraid of people calling for concrete evidence? Go grind your axe somewhere else, your harassment have been reported. Nebakin (talk) 06:56, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody "harassed" you - you were wasting bits here - there is OVERWHELMING news reports that this invasion is happening. Wasting people's time to respond to you is not constructive.50.111.36.47 (talk) 07:01, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
News reports from biased sources. Also, stop harassing me. Nebakin (talk) 07:02, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are already reports of ground forces invading, for example from Belarus. Mellk (talk) 06:09, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Reports are not concrete evidence, without supporting evidence it's just hearsay. There needs to be clear enough pictures and videos of Russian troops in Ukraine. Nebakin (talk) 06:16, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
CNN has video at a border crossing with a column of AFVs crossing into Ukraine, on the road to Kiev. Not that we require video. Reports from reliable sources are sufficient. -- GreenC 06:36, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
we do for such huge claims and ongoing events. Anyways Russia have only admitted movement into Donbass. Nebakin (talk) 06:56, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
only admitted movement into Donbass, you believe that Donbass -- GreenC 07:17, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, with all the evidence from neutral sources (which BBC, CNN, etc are not), the only admitted Russia movement is in Donbass, and I didn't mean the 2 republics, i meant the areas under Ukrainian control. Also, it doesn't matter what I believe, i was just pointing out the available evidence at the time was insufficient to prove it is an invasion. Nebakin (talk) 07:25, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is no visual confirmation as of yet, CNN is not always reliable, especially not in dynamic situations. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 06:50, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Of course there is. Many news channels are showing live feeds of artillery and missile attacks. This is just obtuse. 50.111.36.47 (talk) 07:02, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looks pretty well confirmed to me by lots of sources. You don't think it's confirmed? What's your source? --GreenC 07:05, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Guardian says (10 minutes ago) (and kindly sources the claim) "More on the still unconfirmed Russian ground invasion in the east: Reuters is citing the Ukrainian border guard as saying separate Russian military columns have crossed the Ukrainian border into Chernihiv, Kharkiv and Luhansk regions." I have a feeling this link will quickly change content: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/feb/24/russia-invades-ukraine-declares-war-latest-news-live-updates-russian-invasion-vladimir-putin-explosions-bombing-kyiv-kharkiv Jd2718 (talk) 07:49, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
MoD of Russia claims no resistance by Ukrainian border forces (Interfax). Mellk (talk) 07:04, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Of course they're going to say that though, they want to demoralize the Ukrainian Army. Also I agree with ip user, there is overwhelming evidence that Russia has invaded Ukraine and Nebakin's contention of this is not constructive. Alcibiades979 (talk) 08:10, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I know, I mentioned that because Nebakin said there was no evidence of invasion, while Russian MoD itself issued statement about lack of resistance by Ukrainian border forces. Mellk (talk) 08:15, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Look at the time when i posted this, there was zero concrete evidence of invasion at that point, only evidence of missile strikes, which is not an invasion on its own. Nebakin (talk) 08:27, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ahh, sorry about that, just woke up and didn't sleep so well to begin with. I think he's just doing a bit of trolling. Alcibiades979 (talk) 08:19, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's OK. I'm not sure if he has been convinced yet, but of course now details are scarce. Mellk (talk) 08:22, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
NYTimes is [www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/24/world/russia-ukraine-putin/footage-shows-russian-troops-entering-ukraine reporting] Russian troops invading from Crimea. Alcibiades979 (talk) 08:30, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Re-organize sanctions section?

Should we move the sanctions from before the invasion into the "Prelude" section and then turn the remainder of the "Sanctions" section into a "Reactions" section? This seems like the more standard organization for such a page. Thanks, Gazelle55 (talk) 06:11, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that would be apt Abheygpt1 (talk) 06:49, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Time zone for 24 Feb

Do we want Moscow Time = UTC+3 or Time in Ukraine = UTC+2 or a mix depending on whether we're talking about statements by Putin or actions in Ukraine? Boud (talk) 06:47, 24 February 2022 (UTC) Having a single time zone by default, throughout the section, (with optionally another one in brackets) would make things simpler. Boud (talk) 06:48, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:TIMEZONE Give priority to the place at which the event had its most significant effects; for example, if a [cr]acker in Monaco attacked a Pentagon computer in the US, use the time zone for the Pentagon, where the attack had its effect. Putin is like the hypothetical cracker here, so Ukrainian time (UTC+2) would make sense as the default. Boud (talk) 06:52, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Archived sources

Live news sources without web archives are not useful as WP:RS, because their content is volatile - after a few hours they will not show the information summarised from their content. If you think that a live source will qualify as a WP:RS, then at least archive it and include that in the reference. Boud (talk) 06:57, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2022

For the attempting to restore the Russian Empire/Soviet Union, you could put a link to "Russian irredentism" 67.40.197.159 (talk) 07:27, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Done--Krutarth (talk) 07:49, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Could some add the reaction of France?

France has condemned the invasion but I don't have edit permissions. Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/feb/24/russia-invades-ukraine-declares-war-latest-news-live-updates-russian-invasion-vladimir-putin-explosions-bombing-kyiv-kharkiv BioTorus (talk) 07:34, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Misuse of the word invasion

Under International Law an invasion requires a State to attack a hostile nation on the latter's territory. The attacks in Ukraine is, at the moment, contained in Donetsk and Luhansk, both recognized by Russia as sovereign allied republics. Since these two republics are allied to Russia the operation cannot be classified as an invasion. Acording to Russia it is only defending these allied republics against Ukrainian aggression. China has even explicitly stated the attacks are not an invasion at the moment, putting in evidence the possible wester bias in the term. As such, the use of the word invasion instead of the official term "special military operation" or just operation is pobabably inapropriate. Calling it not an invasion may also be biased, but the only official terminology currently available is "special military operation" and it is also more neutral, so this term probably should be used instead. 2804:14D:7684:8D24:F97A:A1E8:3FC:4D42 (talk) 08:29, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There have been witnessed attacks in the mainland of Ukraine too, for example close to Kiev.
So it is indeed Russian invasion. Mlliarm (talk) 08:32, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The DPR and LPR are under international law part of Ukraine; and there are many sources listing acts of military attacks by Russian forces all over Ukraine. This is a descriptive term and the term used by many reliable sources. For the international legal definition, see crime of aggression. Many of the Russian attacks will quite likely also qualify as war crimes, and possibly crimes against humanity if the specific "kill" lists are acted on. Boud (talk) 09:22, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reactions in Poland

The Polish president Andrzej Duda twitted (in Polish, below my own rather direct/word-for-word translation): "Despite the efforts of the international community, Ukraine has fallen victim of a brutal, unprovoced and unjustified Russian assault. We act together with our allies in NATO and the EU, together we will respond to the Russian brutal aggression and we will not leave Ukraine without support." Source: https://twitter.com/AndrzejDuda/status/1496713699515584512

Follow-up tweet from Duda (in Polish, below my own rather direct/word-for-word translation): "Today at 5.48 [Polish time (?)] I spoke with the President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy @ZelenskyyUa. It has come to a Russian invasion of Ukraine. Its scale is most probably wide. This is an unprecedented act of rape on the norms of international law. Russia excludes itself from the international community." Source: https://twitter.com/AndrzejDuda/status/1495910765177577484

The Polish prime minister Mateusz Morawiecki twitted (in English): "We must immediately respond to Russia's criminal aggression on Ukraine. Europe and the free world has to stop Putin. Today's European Council should approve fiercest possible sanctions. Our support for Ukraine must be real." Source: https://twitter.com/MorawieckiM/status/1496721904551579649 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ngfio (talk • contribs) 08:40, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ngfio Twitter isn't an official source. SwanX1 (talk) 08:42, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@SwanX1The tweet is from the official account of Mateusz Morawiecki. So I'd say it's a pretty good source. Mlliarm (talk) 08:45, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know the official Wikipedia policies concerning twitter, but both tweets has been cited by the Polish Press Agency, [1] and [2] Ngfio (talk) 09:04, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Great find sl (talk) 08:55, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Two references sections

The page somehow ended up with two references sections. Can the middle one be moved/removed? --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 09:20, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Broken edit?

An edit [3] by User:Orbitz_stop_st_ro increased the size of the article by about 50% while cutting out a large amount of existing content (e.g. almost all of the details in the invasion section are gone - it looks like it may have rolled back edits to the previous day.) Can you try to fix what you were apparently trying to do, User:Orbitz_stop_st_ro, or otherwise, can someone fix the article or restore the removed changes? Reyne2 (talk) 09:24, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I thought this too, but there was very little content cut, it's just after the massive reference section in the middle of the article you have to scroll past. The article is really broken at the moment. 〈 Forbes72 | Talk 〉 09:32, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I manually reverted to right before the giant change. Reyne2 (talk) 09:32, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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