Talk:2022 Wellington protest

Notice

NB: This Wikipedia article has had its contents and references copied over from Convoy 2022 NZ after agreement was reached on the talk page to make a page for this event. The original contents on that Wikipedia page has now been shortened.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Lord A.Nelson (talk • contribs)

• Thanks @Lord A.Nelson: for transferring the content over to a new article. This is the longest and most sustained of the COVID-19 protests in NZ. Previous protests did not involve protesters setting up camp and occupying public spaces. Have added a copy tag to the top of the article. Please remember to do that in the future. Andykatib 23:40, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Title

The protest is often written as "Convoy 2022 NZ", however, I have written "NZ" out in full for clarity (NZ → New Zealand). If it should be abbrviated, then feel free to move the page to a new title. --Lord A.Nelson (talk) 11:22, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

?

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I could have sworn there used to be mention of the Bowen House Action Zealandia video in the article? Don't see it any more. Whether it was ever there or not, it ought to be added. --Pokelova (talk) 02:00, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Title move

"Convoy 2022 New Zealand" is what the protestors want it to be known as. But it is a decentralised event with a wide range of participants with a range of viewpoints- not all of them subscribe to the Canadian "convoy" idea. We should rename it to "2022 Wellington Anti-Mandate and Anti-Vaccine protest"--222.153.41.232 (talk) 01:11, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

That is waaaaay too wordy. We should stick to what the media calls it. --Pokelova (talk) 03:04, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I would not be in favor of changing the name. Joe (talk) 06:09, 17 February 2022 (UTC)\

A title change might not be a bad idea as Convoy 2022 New Zealand isn't really descriptive. Could just go for Wellington anti-vaccine mandate protest or New Zealand anti-vaccine mandate protest if we want it to cover the minor ones in other parts of NZ. Aircorn (talk) 15:41, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it should be changed. The name came from the convoy that started back on 6 February, and this is a continuation of that nation-wide convoy. Very similar to the Canada convoy protest, which that title is fine. --Lord A.Nelson (talk) 23:55, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Dispute

221.1153.41.232, Pokelova, I have blocked both of you from editing the article for 24 hours for continual edit-warring. Please discuss your differences here. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:44, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Alright, in order to not get blocked again, @221.1153.41.232:, let me explain to you again what is wrong with some of your edits since you have added them back. And hopefully somebody will back me up on this, because you're making me want to pull my fucking hair out.

• In this edit, the only references mentioning streams being taken down by copyright are unverified Twitter accounts. THESE ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE SOURCES. None of the news articles linked mention this, and Twitter sources are to be used only under very specific requirements. This article has already been caught out by a Twitter source claiming the Cenotaph was a toilet when it was later shown to be a shower.
• This edit is WP:POV. You intend to imply that the sample size is too small and cast aspersions on the way the question was asked. If you can find a reliable source (NOT TWITTER) asking similar questions of the poll methodology, please by all means include that. Otherwise, it's not okay.

--Pokelova (talk) 07:29, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

• Yeah stop using Twitter. There is no shortage of sources out there. Aircorn (talk) 09:12, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

• I've reverted the Twitter edit again. Will resort to semi-protection soon if there is no end to the nonsense. Ajf773 (talk) 09:29, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 21 February 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Unanimous consensus is achieved that the current title fails to demonstrate the scope of this article and must be moved. While consensus was split over what exact title to move this to, the nominator's proposed title got the most support, as the title needs not be too wordy when disambiguation is not required. (closed by non-admin page mover) ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 15:01, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

---

Convoy 2022 New Zealand → 2022 Wellington protest – Better description of the nature of the event Adabow (talk) 09:19, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support. It is no longer a convoy. Would prefer anti-mandate protest as even more descriptive, but this is a step in the right direction. Also compare this to this where it is called the Wellington protest. Aircorn (talk) 10:06, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

In regards to your Google searches, "Convoy 2022 NZ" yields more results than the first one and does appear to be the "official" name. --Pokelova (talk) 11:32, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

That is because one of the groups calls itself "Convoy 2022 NZ". For example the first hit in that news search is this which has The statement was signed off by several groups prominent at the protest: Convoy 2022 NZ, Freedom Alliance, New Zealand Doctors Speaking Out with Science, Outdoors & Freedom Movement, The Freedom and Rights Coalition, Voices for Freedom. (bold mine) as the only mention. That just shows that it has grown beyond the "official name". The first hit in my link above is titled The Wellington protest is testing police independence and public tolerance. Aircorn (talk)

Also to add to my point it is described as "the protest" seven times in the story linked above that uses the groups name just once in a list alongside other prominent groups. Aircorn (talk) 17:42, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Oppose I agree that the article be moved. However, "2022 Wellington Protest" is far too vague a title, and does not specify what the protests have been about. There have been many protests already this year, and there will undoubtedly be many more. Something like "2022 Wellington anti-mandate protest" would be better. If you're going without specifying "2022 Wellington blockade" is also suitable. --222.153.41.232 (talk) 10:42, 21 February 2022 (UTC) ( Blocked sockpuppet of Wallace-it-up, see investigation) ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 13:17, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

That lets perfect be the enemy of good. Aircorn (talk) 17:35, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

How do you mean exactly in this context, my friend?--222.153.41.232 (talk) 03:09, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

An alternative could be 2022 New Zealand protests or 2022 New Zealand vaccination protests, as these also meet WP:NCE and are broad enough to include the action in other cities. It's not really a blockade though. Adabow (talk) 04:29, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Unless I read your reply wrong I got the impression that you are think a move is good, but are opposing because you think there is a better name. That might be true, but if this name is better than the current one it is still an improvement to move it. Since wikipedia requires consensus it can be difficult a to change things and sometimes this happens in small incremental steps. Aircorn (talk) 05:04, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

i would be inclined to agree with Adabow. blockade suggests the entire area is completely sealed off, when it is still accessible by foot and there is some traffic through there. "2022 New Zealand vaccination protests" sounds ideal, but this article almost entirely focuses on the Wellington protest. Perhaps "2022 Wellington vaccination protests" or a split between the different protests?--Aubernas (talk) 04:33, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Oppose The protest is the culmination of the convoy so think the name is still suitable. If it were to be changed it should at least be to something more specific, "2022 Wellington protest" is too vague and fails to acknowledge the other protest activities around New Zealand. Kiwichris (talk) 16:12, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

The Wellington one is by far and away the main one though. Aircorn (talk) 17:35, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

An alternative could be 2022 New Zealand protests or 2022 New Zealand vaccination protests, as these also meet WP:NCE and are broad enough to include the action in other cities. Adabow (talk) 04:29, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

If a rename were to occur, I would suggest 2022 New Zealand anti-vaccine mandate protests. This reflects the main reason of the protest is mandates not vaccines, an important distinction.Kiwichris (talk) 17:15, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Support Not a convoy any longer. There might be better titles but this one is good enough. Schwede66 16:48, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Since several police officers assigned to the protest have now tested positive for COVID-19, and two of the protesters have also tested positive (possibly those who were arrested, as most/almost all of the protesters would probably not voluntarily get tested), the appropriate name for the article is Wellington plague camp. An alternative would be 2022 New Zealand pro-virus movement, but that might not pass our WP:NPOV policy.2407:7000:A23B:3C00:FC04:8968:CBBB:7C7A (talk) 05:53, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Support 2022 Wellington protest is a better name than reference to a convoy. A short survey of recent news items on the protest from Radio New Zealand and STUFF Wellington 'protester's' and 'occupation' are common words. Pakoire (talk) 08:24, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support. The scope of the article is greater than this one informal group or slogan. Andrewa (talk) 14:45, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Infobox dispute

I have run into a disagreement with an anonymous user User:2605:8d80:62d:5b4:bc17:ae41:3ebd:7f82 who has deleted content in the infobox referring to White nationalism, Christian fundamentalism, and anti-Semitism as causes of the Convoy 2022 protest. Initially he deleted most of the sources for the causes line on the grounds that they were biased. Stuff and Newshub are considered mainstream media sources in New Zealand which adhere to standards of journalism and broadcasting. To avoid a revert war, I think the talk page will be the best place to resolve this dispute. Andykatib 00:20, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

I think that the referencing is questionable. The sourced article by Stuff for "Christian fundamentalism" doesn't even mention Christian fundamentalism, the sourced article by Newshub for "white nationalism" doesn't even mention white nationalism and the article supporting the anti-semitism label is an opinion piece which reads more like an editorial than a balanced news story. The Christian fundamentalism and white nationalism labels are not verifiable and should be removed unless there are credible sources that can verify them. ×Kiwichris (talk) 01:29, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

NEW SOURCES — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.153.41.232 (talk) 03:19, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Here is a source for the anti-Semitism which is also mentioned in the lead - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/127831128/holocaust-distortion-and-antisemitism-rife-within-antimandate-protests

Here are four sources for Christian fundamentalism (by way of Destiny Church) - https://abtc.ng/what-religion-is-brian-tamakis-destiny-church/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/your-views-earlier-thoughts-on-the-destiny-church-issue/TEINO7W7ZQZ4HFGVVYSXCONOGU/ https://teara.govt.nz/mi/diverse-christian-churches/page-5 https://www.apologeticsindex.org/2389-destiny-church-brian-tamaki I think Te Ara, written by a paid academic, is by far the most reliable

As for white nationalism, we already know that Action Zealandia is taking part. They are openly identitarian and white nationalist. But here are some other sources I have found- https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300515874/the-week-started-with-calls-for-my-execution-and-ended-at-a-strange-festival https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300518315/who-is-who-at-the-convoy-2022-occupation-of-parliaments-grounds https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/action-zealandia-nzs-largest-neo-nazi-group-on-the-hunt-for-new-recruits/BK56VEKDR5AJE2CMBVNAX2DKRA/ https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/02/extremist-group-action-zealandia-threatened-with-legal-action-after-appropriating-new-zealand-made-kiwi-trademark.html https://www.newsroom.co.nz/action-zealandia-member-planned-terror-cell

These all specifically mention the white nationalist, anti-Semitic, and Christian fundamentalist motivations of the crowd. They pertain to those who are openly espousing such views, at least the most prominently. I would very much appreciate if you added these references in, to ensure we can properly back them up.

Hope this helps :)--222.153.41.232 (talk) 03:16, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

• This is the problem with infoboxes and why so many editors dislike them. You can't distill complicated information into a couple of words. I would either remove that category altogether or just leave COVID-19 pandemic in New Zealand and vaccine mandates in New Zealand. The rest are not really causes, but more manifestations. Aircorn (talk) 05:16, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Thanks talk, Kiwichris, and Aircorn for your feedback. I appreciate User:222.153.41.232's efforts to obtain these sources. Still, I have to agree with Kiwichris and Aircon's concerns about including White nationalism, anti-Semitism and Christian fundmentalism as causes in the infobox. They appear to be side issues to the main issue of opposition to COVID-19 vaccine mandates and policies. Agree that it will just be best to focus on the COVID-19 pandemic and vaccine mandates. Andykatib 10:28, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Opinion pieces

Hi there, I am unsure whether to add some opinion pieces to the article. I came across these articles by Martyn Bradbury and Chris Trotter from the left-wing Daily Blog. Both are prominent left-wing New Zealand commentators but have expressed criticism of the Government's handling of the protest. Was thinking of adding them to an Other responses sub-section of the Responses section. Wasn't sure so I thought I would check with other contributors first. Andykatib 07:16, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Have the responses themselves been covered by other media? Their opinions aren't inherently notable, but if reputable news sources have covered them then I guess they could be worth a quick mention. Adabow (talk) 08:52, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks @Adabox: for your advice. Will think about it. Cheers. Andykatib 09:17, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Surely nobody seriously considers Martyn Bradbury left wing any more? --Pokelova (talk) 03:52, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Far right

I would question the accuracy of the following statement: "Far-right groups involved in the protests include the fundamentalist Destiny Church led by Brian Tamaki, the ultraconservative anti-immigration New Conservative Party, neo-Nazi organisation Action Zealandia,[34] and the anti-vaccine groups "Voices for Freedom", among others." Destiny Church may be fundamentalist but it is not far right, nor is the New Conservative Party ultraconservative. It is conservative, but ultraconservative is an exaggeration. I couldn't comment on Action Zealandia as I know nothing of it. Voices for Freedom may be far right, but I'm not sure. It appears influenced by the sovereign citizen movement from the USA, which could be characterised as extremist but not necessarily of the right or left. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.211.77.42 (talk) 09:43, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Ongoing?

Shall we list the protest as over? So far as I can tell, the grounds have been cleared now and the protestors have almost entirely scattered (see https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300529966/live-police-on-guard-at-parliament-overnight-as-last-occupiers-linger-lawn-to-stay-closed-to-public-for-repairs ) DJK (talk) 10:00, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't jump the gun just yet, they may well regroup tomorrow. --Pokelova (talk) 10:43, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Lead section

Hi everyone, the lead section will need to be trimmed down. My suggestion is keeping the first and last paragraphs and integrating the rest of the material into background and timeline sections. We could also create an aftermath section since we have "clone protests" emerging throughout the country. Will update the spinoff protests sections as well. Andykatib 23:25, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I support the proposal. As noted earlier in an edit summary, the lead alone is more than a third of the entire article and must be trimmed. If you can do that, you're most welcome to do so. Thanks! ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 04:45, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

I also support this. The lead is currently 28.5% of the article. It's four paragraphs, but they're long ones. The table below might be helpful (it will update as the article changes).-gadfium 04:24, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

We should follow WP:Lead. The article proper needs a lot of work first though so this will work as an improvement. It may need to be tweeked as the article matures. Aircorn (talk) 05:49, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Agree - I have just shortened the lead by moving some content into another section. Pakoire (talk) 01:02, 11 March 2022 (UTC)