Talk:Heinrich Schenker

Students

I've removed Hindemith, Klemperer and Schoenberg as students. Although Hindemith and Schoenberg read some of Schenker's work, there's no evidence that they were actually students. Klemperer did meet with Schenker a handful of times, but I don't believe that qualifies him to be considered a student (and he's not listed in any of Schenker's personal lesson plans). -- kosboot (talk) 10:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I'm also concerned that Furtwängler has been 'annexed' by the Schenkerian lobby: naturally, they want the greatest exponent of Schenker's preferred repertoire to be 'on the team'; but I'm not certain that WF's concrete engagement with Schenkerian method and dogma hasn't been over-estimated. Do you have anything to contribute on this issue? I'd be interested to know your thoughts. Pfistermeister (talk) 17:13, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

That Furtwängler studied with Schenker is well-known in Schenkerian circles. I think the onus is on you, Pfistermeister. Furtwängler himself wrote on how he sought out Schenker after reading his monograph on Beethoven's 9th Symphony. He's mentioned multiple times in Schenker's diary (take a look at the Federhofer "biography"), had a decent amount of correspondence with him, is mentioned in his lesson books. So what evidence do you have that shows he was not a student of Schenker? -- kosboot (talk) 17:49, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

What could such negative evidence consist of? A diary entry saying "Furtwängler came to see me this afternoon -- but of course he's not really a student"?? And: 'Schenkerian circles' are not the places to find people prepared to downplay Furtwängler's connection with their movement. My suspicions also come from the fact that while I can easily imagine the very famous and very mature Furtwängler wanting to visit and talk to HS, I cannot possibly see him turning up for 'lessons'... And isn't that what 'studied with' implies?? I have over the years been very bothered by Schenkerians' beliefs about their hero's supposed impact on Furtwängler: I have even been present when people listening to one of the latter's Brandenburg Concerto recordings have said to me: "See?? You can hear the Fundamental Line!!" In short, I perceive an embattled theory's attempt to annexe a towering cultural figure for its own self-validating ends. From my point of view, Furtwängler's 'student' status is something that needs very specific support from the Schenkerian side! Pfistermeister (talk) 18:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Just to be clear: I'm not being nasty. It's just that Schenkerians are actually making a very, very big claim... Pfistermeister (talk)

The documentation of Furtwängler's relationship to Schenker is there. As you admit, it's clear that you have a personal issue with Schenker. You are basing your opinions on just feelings - and that has no place on Wikipedia which places an emphasis on verifiable documentation and is emphatically not a venue for discussions or disputations. Go ahead an doubt all you like, but the evidence is there. Perhaps you should spend some time and examine it, and only after that examination, form an opinion. -- kosboot (talk) 18:59, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I am merely struck by the complete absence, from this page or anywhere else, of anything that proves or demonstrates 'student'. Can I in the nicest way challenge you to put something in the article that illuminates the issue by means of 'verifiable documentation'? You say 'the evidence is there'; but what I've seen only looks like 'evidence' to a Schenkerian partisan. The issue needs dealing with in an objective way, and so far there is no detail. Pfistermeister (talk) 19:06, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure that whatever I put will not be acceptable to you. I can't put actual documents on Wikipedia. Again, you doubt - so you should be the one to do the research. Thus far you shown absolutely no knowledge of sources. -- kosboot (talk) 20:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

There is a distinct difference between a "student" and a "pupil".  A "pupil" pays for lessons or courses of instruction.   A "student" freely reads, studies, audits, absorbs, has conversations with his/her peers and/or authorities, then proceeds to either adopt or reject the information the student has obtained through his/her studies.  The Furtwangler-Schenker letters and diary entries show a peer-to-peer relationship existed between the two men, with Furtwangler requesting and being instructed by Schenker in Schenker's theories, i.e., Furtwangler was indeed a "student" of the Schenker method, and did in fact understand and use Schenker's method of analysis during his career.  In the Furtwangler bio included in the Furtwangler-Schenker correspondence and diary documentation[1] the bio's author (Christof Huff) states that "Schenker gave Furtwängler advice about analytical details, and the latter readily accepted and sought this advice, though he never became Schenker's pupil." K. Kellogg-Smith (talk) 00:10, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

And also that Furtwangler tried to assist Schenker in getting a teaching position at the Vienna Conservatory (unsuccessful) and that Furtwanger paid for publication of volume 3 of Das Meisterwerk in der Musik (Oster mentions the receipts in his article "Re: A New Concept of Tonality?"). -- kosboot (talk) 08:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Freie Satz "incomplete"?

The article states that Der freie Satz was incomplete. It was not completely proofread, but Schenker did complete the text, so I've removed that word. -- kosboot (talk) 13:58, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Beethoven editions

Has editing of the main body of this Wiki been disabled? The bit about the Beethoven editions is incorrect; they contain analytical notes but analyses proper. There are Dover repros of the original editions that show analytical commentary only, not full analyses. Will someone change this? Blap Splapf (talk) 03:59, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Books

A 2007 book by Nicholas Cook presents a wider historical perspective on Schenker's life and work than hitherto, quite distinct from the positivistic application of a small sub-section of Schenker's ideas and methods that became institutionalised in post-war Anglo-American academia.

The above was removed from the article since, "if you're going to talk about books, make a list of them; adhere to NPOV". I don't know what that means, but I have little idea what the quote is trying to say since, as the reason for removal points out, it doesn't compare it to any of the books which it is supposedly better than. Hyacinth (talk) 17:24, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

See WP:NPOV. The above statement makes a claim that is not supported by other literature. To single out a recent book in the current small article seems inappropriate unless you mention it in the context of other books. -- kosboot (talk) 23:07, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

See also WP:SOAP. -- kosboot (talk) 05:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

References

Vienna

When did Schenker move to Vienna? ҃҃҃17:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I believe he was studying in Vienna by 1888. - kosboot (talk) 17:44, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Schenker arrived in Vienna in 1884, to begin his studies in law at the University in the fall-winter semester. 62.235.207.98 (talk) 12:25, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Urlinie

The statement that "Schenker's original conception of the Urlinie was of a line that rose from ^1 to reach its top note exactly midway through the piece, and then descended back to ^1" is pure fantasy: there is no such description of the Urline in any of Schenker's writings. The original conception was that some melodic lines (usually by conjunct movement, but not necessarily the most conspicuous ones) where at the origin (Ur) of the subsequent melodic developments of the work: it is, in a way, a motivic conception. It is only in his late writings (1930-1935) that Schenker said that the line should be descending, and supported by the characteristic harmonies I-V-I. 62.235.207.98 (talk) 12:32, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Biography or not?

This article should be a biographical article; information about his theory should go into the article Schenkerian Analysis. Unless someone comes up with a good reason, I intend to remove the sections on the analytical method and put them in the appropriate article. -- kosboot (talk) 04:10, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Developments after Schenker's death? That is not about Heinrich Schenker but is more appropriate for the article Schenkerian Analysis. -- kosboot (talk) 22:05, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I propose to remove the sections about the theory to Schenkerian analysis. If anyone has objections, let's discuss. -- kosboot (talk) 22:23, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Bibliography

I made a minor change in the list of Schenker's writings: the text about Eugen d'Albert in Die Zukunft 9 does not include "Eine Lebenskizze", which is by Eugen d'Albert himself. Schenker's text, titled merely "Eugen d'Albert", starts on p. 33. This is unimportant, but the faulty reference is often found in texts about Schenker (including another fault, "Lebellskizze" instead of "Lebenskizze"). Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 08:51, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Ukrainian?

Someone added the category of Jewish Ukrainian musicians. When Schenker was born, his town was part of Poland. Scholarly literature states that Schenker grew up knowing four languages, but Ukrainian was not one of them. I am therefore removing the category. - kosboot (talk) 15:18, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I once spoke of Schenker in the Conservatoire in Kiev and mentioned that he was born near Lvov (Lemberg). My hearers did not seem impressed and hardly were prepared to consider him Ukrainian. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 15:42, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

When Schenker was born, his town was part of Poland - Poland didn't exist at the time of his birth as the independent state. The place of birth (Vyshnivchyk) was (and is) an ethnic Ukrainian territory and not Polish. Vyshnivchyk was not a big town, hence it was unlikely he was growing isolated and didn't know Ukrainian language at all. Besides, Ukrainians were often referred as Rusyns or Ruthenians, which may have mislead researchers, as well. Finally, Schenker is present in other lists referred to Ukraine, therefore his inclusion to Category:Jewish_Ukrainian_musicians is highly recommended. Unas964 (talk) 17:29, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Schenker is not at all Ukrainian but identified mostly with Galician Jews. We know he and his family spoke Polish; nothing is ever mentioned about his speaking Ukrainian or Russian. Remember that although today the town is in Ukraine, it was not thought of such in Schenker's childhood years. - kosboot (talk) 17:56, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

nothing is ever mentioned about his speaking Ukrainian or Russian -- noone talked about Russian language: it is completely unrelated to the issue. Instead, Ukrainian birthplace location can be used as cross-reference for those interested in the history of Ternopil_Oblast, which could help to navigate in Wikipedia. I presume such paradigm is beneficial especially when it comes to such diverse historical region as Austria-Hungary was. "Galician Jews", "Austro-Hungarian Jews" and "Ukrainian Jews" - all look relevant (Polish and Russian are not).
Unas964 (talk) 20:33, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Geographical names?

I've noticed many Ukrainian towns/cities are inconsistently named in this article: some in Polish way (Wiśniowczyk, Podhajce), while others in German (Lemberg). Didn't check other geographical names, therefore recommend to check all them thoroughly.
Unas964 (talk) 17:36, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

They're named that way because that's the way Schenker would have known of them. (I'll refrain from making an editorial statement about how history is corrupted by nationalism.) - kosboot (talk) 17:57, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. There would be no reason to use "Lemberg" instead of "Lvov", was it not that it is the name that Schenker himself used and that will be found in his (and other) writings. Geographical names, and geography itself, has been quite mobile in these areas in the 20th century. When I mentioned in the Tchaikovsky Conservatoire in Kyiv, some 20 years ago, that Schenker was born in what in his time was Austria-Hungary, but was now Ukraine, few of the hearers (particularly among the elder ones) appeared to consider this an interesting information. But, like kosboot, I should better refrain from comments on nationalism. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 19:13, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

How the proposal to verify geographical names can be connected to nationalism? There could be only two options: use current names (completely unpractical for cross-references to contemporary documents) or the names assigned in that time. I have doubts Austria-Hungary widely approved Polish names hence pointend at the examples (e.g. German Wikipedia version gives "Podhayce" instead of "Podhajce").
Btw, "Lvov" is the most inappropriate name of the largest city in Western Ukraine (Galizia during the period): it's mere transliteration of Russian "Львов".
Unas964 (talk) 20:51, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I disagree with all that you have stated. It appears to me you are unaware of Schenker's biography and your opinions are not based on history but a desire to put a Ukrainian mark where there is none at all. - kosboot (talk) 01:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

You must have chosen the wrong thread to answer: here, I discuss geographical names used in the article and not Schenker's biography. Diverse opinions help to find the optimal solution if treated as a dialogue. You may have the point that Schenker nas no affiliation with Ukrainian people, but the fact remains that he was born on Ukrainian land. Therefore it is essential to give relevant name of the location, whether it is Wiśniowczyk or Vyshnivchyk, Podhajce or Pidhaitsi.
Back to geography - I found at least one other major inconsistency in the description of the tour with Johan Messchaert. Czech name "Ústí nad Labem" is used in the same sentence, as German "Brünn". German name for the former, Aussig or Außig, will match the shared formula (as in the case of Lemberg). I would also refrain from using Italian form "Trieste" instead of German "Triest".
Unas964 (talk) 07:19, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

And you are totally unaware that the notation of Ukraine did not exist in that town in that time. It was Poland. Another example of a famous person born in that town is the soprano Marcella Sembrich who, not Jewish, always thought of herself as Polish, never Ukrainian. - kosboot (talk) 12:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

You're right that the "notation of Ukraine" didn't exist, as well as the "notation of Poland". Both Polish and Ukrainian territories were occupied by different countries at the time. But that doesn't mean Poles and Ukrainians didn't exist either. The region Galicia where Vyshnivchyk is located was constituted by Ukrainian majority: it's their ethnic territory, which eventually and logically became a part of independent Ukraine, after centuries of Polish, Austrian and Soviet occupation. It wasn't monoethnic, of course, and there lived a lot of Poles and other nations. Lviv, for instance, was mostly Polish-Jewish. I see no contradiction in Marcella Sembrich and Heinrich Schenker born in Galicia, as well as other non-Ukrainians.
But, again, what does it have to do with geographical names?Unas964 (talk) 16:27, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Ewell, racism, Jackson

The current tempest about Jenker and the UNT journal of his methods and theory should be included at least a little bit. See, e.g., https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/unt-professor-sparks-controversy-over-racism-in-music-theory-world-11932353 Kdammers (talk) 10:00, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I'd say not by itself but in the context of what other people have said about those ideas of which we find distasteful. Personally, I've gone through a lot of Schenker and a lot of his contemporaries - and I feel he was pretty mild compared to what one finds in the newspapers of the time. (Losing World War I had a massive effect on Austrian public opinion.) But I've found only one article that talks about his political ideas and beliefs in the context of his times. Another belief I've held is that Schenker himself was an outsider (having come from what was Poland at the time) living in Vienna. A number of people have verbally agreed with this idea, but I've yet to see it in print. - kosboot (talk) 16:05, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

My own feeling is that while this article has no reason to enter the "tempest" between Philip Ewell and Timothy Jackson, Schenker's nationalism and racism must be mentioned.

After that, one might wonder whether he was the only one (certainly not, as Ewell himself stresses, mentioning Fétis, Riemann, Schoenberg, Webern, also Max Weber), whether he was mild compared to others (some of the authors just mentioned certainly were worse), etc. He obviously was utterly frustrated by all sorts of circumstances. One must also keep in mind that he was Jew and that, had he not died in 1935, he most probably would have shared the fate of his wife in Theresienstadt.

I don't think that this is the place to discuss Ewell's keynote, as published in MTO 26.2], or the answers in the JSS. Let me say however that Schenker's criticism in Der Tonwille 1 of almost anyone who is not German (the English, the French, the Italians, the Slavs, the Polish, the Czech, the Japanese, etc.) and his praising of great men of various origins (Moses, Christus, Buddha, Confucius, Laozi, Luther, Leibniz, Goethe, Schiller, Kant, Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, etc.) do not appear typical of a biological racism against nonwhites.

But WP is not the place to settle such problems. Schenker's racism and his nationalism must be mentioned, perhaps with links to the publications mentioned above, but thats all, IMO. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 16:24, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

FWIW, I looked up this article hoping to understand this controversy better Skrelk (talk) 00:59, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

I hope with the holiday weekend I'll be able to add something in a day or two. - kosboot (talk) 02:40, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

- ñññ Stop letting Hucbald use Wikipedia as his personal propaganda tool. Do this or I'll be doing it for you soon. Thanks. -Joshua Clement Broyles ñññ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.154.33.43 (talk) 17:38, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

After today's big NYT article I'll try to write something. The article brings up a difficult: Dealing with Schenker is relatively straightforward. But it overlaps with the question is whether Schenkerian Theory is racist (I don't believe so and have yet to see any "proof" that it is). Hopefully I'll have enough by tonight that I'll notify the talk page of that article and those authors can deal with that question. - kosboot (talk) 22:47, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

@Kosboot. Did you see this: [2]? It includes some interesting remarks. An important one is that music probably is hierarchic by nature – and, therefore, that most music theories in the world deal with hierarchies. This, however, may not help you much in this article on Schenker – it more probably would concern the Music theory page.

My feeling is that lines are beginning to move in this Schenkergate affair: contrasting voices begin to be heard (including that in the NYT), which hopefully means that the whole matter eventually will appear as an accident limited in time. I don't think that the WP Heinrich Schenker page is a place for arguing about the Schenkergate. What should be done here merely is saying a word about Schenker's nationalist (and possibly racist) ideas. The Schenkergate debate should happen elsewhere – for instance on some website of the SMT or of one of its sub-groups, was it not that everybody there for the time being seemss frightened up to the point of remaining silent. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 21:55, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for briniging that to my attention, Hucbald! Yes, the more I think of it, this (biographical) article on Schenker need only address Schenker's remarks. Whether the theory is "white" is really for the article on Schenkerian Analysis. One issue that I've long contended is that, as bad as Schenker's writings may be, they are much worse than most typical writers of the time which some believe was brought about by defeat in World War I. The problem is finding sources that state that. - kosboot (talk) 14:56, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

@Kosboot, I don't see how the article on Schenkerian analysis could discuss whether his theory is "white" – nor even whether it his racist. There are no references to be given – unless one not clearly argumented claim, by a single person. The only "argument" available is that Schenkerian analysis evidences a tonal hierarchy (which is obvious) and that this reflects Schenker's conception of a social or racial hierarchy (which by no means is obvious). The fact is that music itself probably (or almost) always is hierarchic, at least for two reasons:

• Centricity, as evidenced not only by tonal music, but also by all kinds of so called "modal" musics (from Gregorian chant to maqāmic, Indian, Indonesian and other musics). All these musics "aim for a definite goal", as Schoenberg (speaking of harmonic music) wrote in Structural Functions.
• Consonance vs dissonance, which may come close to being a universal of music – even if the difference really becomes important only in polyphonic music. But there are melodic consonant and dissonant intervals.

and perhaps for several other reasons, but I see none that could be imputed to Schenker, or that could be documented to result from his theories. This all would make interesting matters to debate, but WP is not the place for such debates, and the SMT – which would be the best place for it – remains utterly silent and blocks discussions. Despite what has been claimed, there are enough secundary sources, including American ones, to document Schenker's nationalism (and racism). There are none, that I know, to document the racism of Schenkerian theory. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 20:56, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

It does not seem accurate to reprint Timothy Jackson's assertion that Ewell's argument is based on "mistranslation." Jackson makes two points about mistranslation in his article, but neither is a translation that directly addresses Schenker's views on racial hierarchies. Nor are the "mistranslations" (which are actually subject to debate) central at all to Ewell's argument. The first is a translation by William Drabkin about Schenker's views of Nazism with regards to Marxism, not race (or even anti-Semitism). The second is a translation of Schenker's biographer (not Schenker himself) regarding Schenker's views of "German national culture" as opposed to "race." Again, this says nothing about Schenker's views regarding the "mongrelization" of peoples, nor of "lesser" peoples, which is Ewell's entire, indisputable point. 67.246.73.246 (talk) 16:47, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

What do you mean by "It does not seem accurate"? The article says that Timothy Jackson answered Ewell (by saying that his interpretations are based on mistranslations, etc.). This would be inaccurate only if Jackson hadn't said that, which is not the case – besides, he is not the only one. Both Ewell's claims and Jackson's (and others') answers are part of the controversy: to purport that there is no controversy certainly would not be accurate. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 15:43, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Mention of racism in the lead

An anonymous editor has recently been trying to include a mention of Schenker's racism in the lead, which has resulted in a "minor" edit war. Most of the references to media coverage of the topic are fairly recent and there appears to be some WP:RECENTISM going on here. The first mention of racism is peppered with no less than 12 references, which looks absurd and smacks of WP:Citation overkill (which is often a red flag). Furthermore, commercial links such as Amazon, some of which are currently being used as references, rarely constitute quality sources.

Others' input on this is most welcome. Thank you. Toccata quarta (talk) 04:43, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I amended the lede to something that I think is fair and balanced. Also, two citations are enough. Schenker's views on race are now notable in classical music circles and this needs to be addressed. But he still remains better known for his musical analysis and that needs to be represented accordingly. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 06:17, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I am extremely hesitant to exclude the fact entirely—primarily because it has been increasingly present in mainstream scholarship in the last fifty years and will undoubtably remain so for some time. This being said, I don't know that 2020 is a huge catalyst for the topic, the issues have been brought up for some time now, though I think the current alteration is better that the "controversial for..." version. Aza24 (talk) 21:25, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I'd never heard about Schenker's personal views on race until late last year, despite being a subscriber to a number of musicological journals and getting sent a lot of related books. Probably I'm not the only one in a similar situation. That his views were certainly discussed and written about prior to 2020 there is no doubt, but I think it's fair to say that they did not reach the attention of a wider readership beyond (and even within) academic music circles until last year. However, I'd be glad to amend the closing sentence of the lede to something less time-specific. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 21:57, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I re-wrote the majority of this article years ago. At first I was perturbed by the anonymous insert. But, remembering that Wikipedia is always mutable, and as User:CurryTime7-24 says, this is how people feel in 2020 and the main reason they might come to this article, I'm content to let it stand for now. I might enter a quote from Schachter's article saying that he feels it's possible to separate Schenker's beliefs from his theories because they have no bearing on them (a belief with which Ewell disagrees, but I disagree with Ewell's implication). - kosboot (talk) 22:12, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Although I am very much in favor of the publication of Schenker Documents Online, at times I wonder whether it does not go too far in unveiling Schenker's intimacy. Unless I am mistaken, he mentioned this idea about self-gouvernance only once in a private correspondence to August Halm (1922) that is now made public. I don't think Schenker ever used the term "mongrelization" (which does not seem to have a German translation): to give it between quotes is misleading. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 07:19, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

It was only after World War I that Schenker began to verbalize his nationalism. Having gone through a major portion of Schenker's Nachlass, my feeling is that: 1) Schenker's statements were mild compared to the contemporary press (which Schenker read avidly); 2) this is a personal feeling, but I suspect that Schenker was sometimes so vociferous because he himself was a foreigner (although he probably would have justified it in some far-fetched manner) and Jewish in an environment that, although populated with many Jews, still saw routine rejection of Jews in many parts of society. I've seen these opinions expressed in only a single article (which I can't recall). Additionally, while Schenker sometimes expresses nationalistic ideas in a number of places, his racial feelings I think were expressed in his words only once, whereas he quoted others. While a quotation might be seen as an endorsement, I feel it's open to question what level of endorsement. It's a complex issue and today's black-or-white conversations are not helpful to achieving a nuanced understanding of the issues. - kosboot (talk) 13:48, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

If someone is going to include something in the lead, please make sure it is accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.26.105 (talk) 05:51, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@24.184.26.105: it would be easier to take your opinion in account if you told us in what you think the phrase in the lead is not accurate, or if you suggested an alternative. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 10:10, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@24.184.26.105: What exactly is "inaccurate" about that section of the lead? It makes no mention of Ewell at all. At any rate, the fact remains that it wasn't until after the 2020 protests that Schenker's remarks about race became known outside of academic circles (in great part because of the cited articles, which were published well after spring 2020). —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 18:20, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

It wasn't until the 2020 protests that Schenker's theory became known outside of academic circles, while his remarks about race had been read and commented in academic circles long before. The protesters easily claimed that his remarks about race were not known, making fuss about something that in no way was new. See the list of references quoted below, #Did_modern_Schenkerians_ignore_or_whitewash_Schenker's_racism? – Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 09:08, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

• Is it duly balanced, given the prominence of his theories, to have it in the lead rather than the body of the article? Tony (talk) 08:08, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

I believe not. I think if one were to collect all of Schenker's published writings one would find it infrequent that he expresses racists ideas - ideas which were very prevalent at the time. But many people in today's world want to see this kind of issue highlighted. It's the problem of judging other times based on contemporary understanding which is a misuse and misunderstanding of history. - kosboot (talk) 12:52, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

I think issues with Schenker's views are being taken increasingly seriously in the mainstream theory community. Over nine hundred theorists signed the open letter after the JSS kerfuffle decrying the tone of the journal. SMT doesn't publish membership numbers, but that's a pretty significant fraction (probably more than half) by any reasonable estimation. The lead doesn't need to litigate the whole thing, but given that controversy over his views on race is literally the ONLY REASON Schenker has received any coverage outside of the specialist press, not just recently, but probably *ever*, SOME mention of the topic belongs there. PianoDan (talk) 20:12, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Good and convincing point. - kosboot (talk) 01:15, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

The problem with all this is that Rasse, for Schenker, had not the meaning that it took in modern (American) English. In 19th- and early 20th-century German (as in French), it meant something like "lineage" (possibly also "breed"). In Der freie Satz (1935) for instance, Schenker uses the word only in a paragraph in chapter 3 of Part 1 (in Free Composition, this would be Section 3 of Chapter 1; but the paragraph is missing, as it already had disappeared in the 1956 German edition). Schenker speaks there of the "German race" (Germanische Rasse) and writes: "no, who creates such linear progressions certainly must be German, even if perhaps foreign blood flows in his veins. Here the wide-spanning accomplishment is more proof than any racial science". This text has often been translated, e. g. by C. Schachter ("Elephants, Crocodiles, and Beethoven", note 12, p. 17) or by Nathan Fleshner (The Musical Psyche, p. 24).

In view of this, I am not sure that Schenker's views are taken "increasingly seriously": more often, modern views result from misunderstandings. As an example, Schenker's German Erkennt meine Lehre die Züge als ein Hauptelement der Stimmführung, so ist die Musik dadurch allen Kirchen, allen Menschen gleich zugänglich geworden ("When my theory recognizes linear progressions as a fundamental element of voice leading, so is music therefore similarly made accessible to all churches, to all humans", Der freie Satz, 1935, p. 6) is translated if Free Composition (p. xxiii) as "Since the linear progression, as I have described it, is one of the main elements of voice-leading, music is accessible to all races and creeds alike" – this is the only usage of the word "race" in Free Composition, and it is not in Der freie Satz. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 09:07, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Splitting hairs over what he meant a hundred years ago doesn't MATTER. Andrew Jackson's views on race are viewed as odious NOW, and whether or not they were typical at the time does not change that fact.

I'm going to cut and paste something I wrote on the JSS talk page. These are all quotes from Schenkerian scholars, in the journal DEDICATED to the man, in an issue whose entire point was defending Schenkerian analysis.

• "Henrich Schecker was a passionate and prolific writer... several of his writings contain racist comments" - David Beach
• "I take as fact the disturbing and mutually reinforcing relationship between Schenker's much-disseminated music theory and his less-discussed belief in white racial superiority." - Richard Beaudoin
• "[Ewell] is quite right to deplore Schenker's racism." - Charles Burkhardt
• "Heinrich Schenker made distasteful statements and embraced unsavory cultural prejudices." - Alan Cadwallader
• "Ewell provided abundant examples of Schenker's blatant racism from both his Nachlass and published materials." - Suzannah Clark
• "Such statements [by Schenker] could only be seen as 'designed to provoke hatred, sometimes of a specifically racial nature.'" - Nicholas Cook
• "Schencker viewed the world through a hirearchical lens that was racist (and more)." - Rich Pellegrin
• "The facts are not seriously in question: Schenker was a deeply flawed and conflicted character whose virulently nationalist and racist views are unpalatable by any standards". - Boyd Pomeroy

And the articles I took those from were not cherry-picked. Those eight quotes are from the first nine articles.

Whatever the context of those views a hundred years ago, it is simply indisputable NOW that Schencker's views on race have received increased attention in the 21st century. PianoDan (talk) 13:54, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Or to put it more simply - there is so much discussion on Schenker's views on race, in the public as well as specialist sphere, that the discussion itself has clearly reached Wikipedia notability, regardless of how one perceives its accuracy. PianoDan (talk) 14:01, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

What Schenker meant by race does matter. When he used the term race he meant national race, not white supremacy. He was talking about the French, the English, the Italians, etc.--those peoples who defeated Germany in WWI. As Barry Wiener demonstrated in his JSS article, Ewell took Schenker out of context to make it look like Schenker was a biological racist when he wasn't one. With that said, the Schenker controversy does need to be included, but it needs to be included accurately. 24.184.26.105 (talk) 18:42, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

"Accurately" does not, however, mean cherry-picking. Are there flat-earthers? Yes. Should a discussion of flat earth theories mean giving equal weight to both sides? No.

Barry Wiender asserted that there was a meaningful distinction to be made between Schencker's views and the modern understanding of white supremacy, and he offered supporting evidence for that assertion. (He didn't demonstrate anything - this isn't mathematics.) And Richard Beaudoin, in the same issue, asserted that Schencker DID have a belief in white racial supremacy.

You could present both of those views, and say you've achieved "balance." This would be the same as presenting the view of a flat earth partisan and a scientist and saying you've achieved "balance." Accurately presenting the controversy would also involve pointing out the weight of support for each side, and there seems to be fairly overwhelming support (as demonstrated above) even among Schencker scholars for the contention that Schenker was racist. Not to mention (again) the huge number of signatories to the SMT open letter. PianoDan (talk) 20:08, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

How much space should Wikipedia devote to flat earthers in an article about the geography of the world? None at all.

As your quote shows, Beaudoin based his view on Ewell, not on Beaudoin's original research.

Wiener shows that Ewell quoted Schenker out of context. His article gives Ewell's quote, then Schenker's full quote. When you examine the full quote, you can see that Schenker was talking about national peoples, not races. Thus, Wiener doesn't argue that Schenker is not a white supremacist, he proves he isn't. 24.184.26.105 (talk) 21:00, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

The Beaudoin quote doesn't mention Ewell at all. (Nor do the ones from Beach, Cadwallader, Cook, Pellegrin, or Pomeroy.) Perhaps you are confusing him with Burkhardt? At any rate, you're still cherry-picking. PianoDan (talk) 21:05, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Because You left that part out! Full quote: "Following Ewell (2019c), I take as fact the disturbing and mutually reinforcing relationship between Schenker's much-disseminated music theory and his less-discussed belief in white racial superiority." - Richard Beaudoin 24.184.26.105 (talk) 21:17, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

OK, that's a fair point. On the other hand, "Following Ewell" doesn't mean, "blindly following Ewell," it means "I am convinced by the arguments Ewell presented."

Also, out of curiosity, I went and looked up Wiener. What, precisely, makes his opinion on this topic noteworthy? Unlike most of the other scholars I quote above, he doesn't have much of a research history. While ALL of those articles are tarred by the lack of peer review in the journal, at least most of those authors have an established academic record to point to. Beaudoin, for example, is a professor at Dartmouth.

You've latched onto the least noteworthy author in the volume. At least, other than "anonymous." PianoDan (talk) 21:25, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Schenker Polish-born ?

@kosboot, you wrote today in the article that Schenker was "Polish-born." I see that you already mentioned this above, in the discussion about whether Schenker was Ukrainian. It seems to me that Lemberg (or Wisniowczyk or Podhajce) ceased to be Polish in 1772, when the Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria was created, and came back to Poland only in 1918. What is the meaning of "Polish-born"? Is it a matter of nationality, of mother tongue, or what? Would it not be less controversial to say that Schenker was Galicia-born? — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 11:34, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Actually for people like Schenker who was born in a place that has undergone geographic transformation, I don't like any identification. But I agree with you that identification of Galicia is probably the best solution. - 12:58, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. As to "Austrian from Galicia," one might argue that "Austro-Hungarian from Galicia" would be better. (The same with "Austrian Galicia", at the beginning of Heinrich_Schenker#Early_years_and_education. Let's avoid the problem, and keep to "Galician-born." Something else, in order to improve my English: does one write "an Galician-born Austrian music theorist", or "a Galician-born ..."? — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 16:31, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Certainly the latter, changed now. Thanks to you both for this. Aza24 (talk) 08:10, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Did modern Schenkerians ignore or whitewash Schenker's racism?

@CurryTime7-24 writes in the summary of his recent modifications of this page that he is "an admirer of Schenker’s work, but was not familiar with [Schenker's] personal views on race." The claim (by Ewell) that modern Schenkerians "whitewashed" Schenker's racism easily is contradicted by the Schenkerian literature. I quote here from Meeùs' Open Letter on Schenker's racism:

• Célestin Deliège’s Fondements de la musique tonale, Paris, Lattès, 1984 (²Delatour-France, 2020), devoted its pp. 47-49 to the “ethical objection” against Schenker’s theory.

• Hellmut Federhofer, one of the most ardent advocates of Schenker in Europe, discussed Schenker’s Politik, among which his racism, in a long section of Chapter V, Schenkers Weltanschauung, of his Heinrich Schenker. Nach Tagebüchern und Briefen in der Oswald Jonas Memorial Collection, Hildesheim, Olms, 1985, pp. 324-330.

• William Rothstein, “The Americanization of Heinrich Schenker”, In Theory Only 9/1 (1986), pp. 5-17

• In his short book Heinrich Schenker. Une introduction, Liège, Mardaga, 1993, Nicolas Meeùs commented both on the probably excessive devotion of Schenker’s disciples to their master and their silencing his politic and social ideas (p. 10), and on his nationalist excesses in the Erläuterungsausgabe of Beethoven’s op. 101 (pp. 16-17).

• Martin Eybl devotes a full book to the question: Ideologie und Methode Zum ideengeschichtlichen Kontext von Schenkers Musiktheorie, Tutzing, Hans Schneider, 1995. [Timothy Jackson rightly argues that this book wrongly is quoted by Ewell in support of his argument.]

• Carl Schachter, "Elephants, Crocodiles, and Beethoven: Schenker’s Politics and the Pedagogy of Schenkerian Analysis", Theory and Practice 26 (2001), pp. 1-20.

• William Drabkin, "Heinrich Schenker", The Cambridge History of Western Music Theory, Th. Christensen ed., Cambridge University Press 2002, pp. 812-43.

• Suzannah Clark, "The Politics of the Urlinie in Schenker’s 'Der Tonwille' and 'Der freie Satz'", Journal of the Royal Musical Association 132/1 (2007), pp. 141-64.

• Nicholas Cook, The Schenker Project: Culture, Race, and Music Theory in Fin-de-siècle Vienna, Oxford University Press, 2007.

And there are several others. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 22:09, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the bibliography. This is very useful. I hope my edit summary was not misunderstood. I did not mean for my admission of ignorance about Schenker's racial/political views to lend weight to Ewell's argument. Rather, my point was whether there was any "whitewashing" or not, such controversies tend to be secondary, if that, in my personal appreciation of artists and academics. In general, these are not topics I follow. There are probably many other musically literate people out there like myself who think similarly. Therefore, contrary to Hucbald.SaintAmand's edit summary, not everybody may know the details about these controversies. However, having learned of them, I do feel that they are more than notable enough to mention in the lead and body of Schenker's article. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 22:28, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

CurryTime7-24, you are right that the controversy should remain secondary. Let's hope it will soon shade away. For the time being, however, as Stephen Soderberg wrote on the discussion forum of the Society for Music Theory (this page, October 3), members of the SMT are "making complete fools of [them]selves." Rather than facing such criticism, the SMT closed its forum. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 11:27, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Over on the Philip Ewell Wikipedia entry,PianoDan is trying to eliminate all criticism of Ewell. He doesn't even want to note that Jackson and Wiener have criticized Ewell. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.26.105 (talk) 05:10, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

This is the talk page to discuss the article on Schenker. PianoDan (talk) 14:05, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Relevant policy: WP:TALK#TOPIC PianoDan (talk) 14:09, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Barry Wiener Source

As I have been reverted, I'll bring the discussion here. (And I'll bring up one at a time for clarity.)

First, the unambiguous one.

Barry Wiener's article does not meet WP:RS. It was published in JSS Issue 12, which had no formal peer review process. In order to include it, we would have to therefore establish that Dr. Wiener is an authoritative source in his own right.

Dr. Wiener has only three published articles on any topic, with a total of two citations between them. None of the three are on Schenker. He has an h-index of one, which is absurdly low, even in the low citation field of music theory.

By what criteria does this article possibly meet the Wikipedia definition of a reliable source? PianoDan (talk) 22:54, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Particularly because of this sensitive topic, the citation to be a very dependable reliable source. - kosboot (talk) 23:21, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree with @CurryTime7-24. The Wiener quote is relevant here. I have stated my reasons extensively on the Journal of Schenkerian Studies Talk page.