Talk:Seville

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 April 2019 and 14 June 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sograves, Gabbym9903.

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Economic Developments

I will begin working on further developing the economy section with more industries and current statistics. --Koopnasty (talk) 23:46, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Seville is not the warmest area in continental europe

Someone keeps on adding an unsourced claim that Seville is the warmest annually in continental Europe. Please refrain from adding this again unless you can substantiate it with a credible source that specifically states this.Weatherextremes (talk) 20:09, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

So, the same user is now using a tourist clickbait source to claim Seville is the warmest in continental Europe and the same user is not even engaging in the talk page. Weatherextremes (talk) 19:23, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: Why do you say the same user when it wasn't even me who added that claim in the past? It seems you have had a serious problem with this statement/phrase until the point you've done a WP:SPS in a blog where you edit and you've inserted the same claim in a couple of Wikipedia articles using meteoclub.gr as the only source that contradicts this fact, when 2 different Wikipedia Administrators have already said meteoclub.gr is not a reliable source but WP:SPS and WP:SYN and I can even search for that.

Now you've just made an edit war to try to impose your own WP:POV before even trying to reach an argument here, who said it's "a tourist clickbait source" except for you? Why do you think any real website has even bothered to seek for the warmest city in continental Europe or something? This is obviously something that's not really documented, and even if your claims were real, although meteoclub.gr is not a reliable site, "Nea Filadelfia" is not a city but a district, Sevilla is a city, what is exactly hard to understand?

If you have a personal problem with the source then wait as per WP:CYCLE but don't just stick to revert and to impose your own point of view as you've done before in other articles. Nevermind I have seen you have already broken the WP:3RR and initiated a strong edit war as you literally don't care about WP:GUIDELINES when you have been warned this same summer over edit wars you've made in several articles. I'm gonna fill a report against your actions. --TechnicianGB (talk) 19:37, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Oh I was under the impression it was you, if not I am sorry but you seem to be the one insisting to provide this tourist clickbait low quality source on that claim. Now who says that I have edited any blog? You are accusing me or writing up sources just to use them on wikipedia? Is that what you are doing?

Also you have broken the WP:3RR and what is sad about it you never bother to engage in the section which I created more than a year ago Weatherextremes (talk) 19:44, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: and when I have warned you in the edit diffs why didn't you come here instead of doing 4 reverts in less than 30 minutes? The 3 RR is broken at the 4th revert, not at the 3rd, and I have reverted 3 of your edits (while encouraging you in the edit diffs to talk as per WP:CYCLE) while you have reverted 4 of my edits, without any solid reason. I am actually filling the report, if you want to talk, I'd recommend you to revert your last edit in the main page of Seville returning to the stable version of the page and we can talk here. Or do you prefer an administrator to take action over this edit war you have created because you simply don't agree with a source that no one else deleted except for yourself? --TechnicianGB (talk) 19:53, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

So let me understand. You have reverted to a personal attack, a clear ad hominem behavior by accusing me that I edit blogs (which btw you do not even bothered to comment) and on top of that you prefer to keep the obviously clickbaity tourist source? There was no stable version actually. That's a low quality source added by you and I believe it should not be there.I hope any admin will understand this. At least you started to engage in the talk page. Its a start Weatherextremes (talk) 20:01, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: Sorry but I have already told you in this revert what you shold do as per WP:CYCLE and you literally didn't even care until you have broken the 3RR and you came here to put accusations. The "accusation" I have actually also said (which is unrelated to Seville) is because you just delete this phrase because according to yourself, "the Athens Riviera has the warmest climate in Continental Europe" which is an article created by you, where you are using your own WP:SPS from meteoclub.gr (2 different Wiki administrators have already told you this in the past, one of them here) and that's your only counterargument to delete a based source? You literally use self published sources on other Wiki Articles, how can you dictaminate if a source is unreliable or not?

If you believe that source shouldn't be here, this is why the talk page exists for, not to revert 4 edits in less than 30 minutes and then playing the "it's not my fault" card. You have also deleted the disruptive tag I've inserted in your talk page clearly showing how interested you are in resolving this dispute. And since I see you don't even want to WP:CYCLE I will fill the report in the Edit Warring noticeboard, because you really don't care about WP:GUIDELINES nor about warnings. --TechnicianGB (talk) 20:14, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

We have been through this before. I am at a liberty of blanking my personal talk page as far as I am aware the past 11 years that I am editing wikipedia. So please do not use non arguments. Secondly,you insist that I use self published sources? I have been very transparent and I had repeatedly stressed publicly in the forum here [1] that I do not edit meteoclub. You are aware of this from our discussion back in the summer, yet you insist of twisting the facts. That's is pretty sad.

It is exactly because I care (!) that I asked you to remove the clickbaity source which is a non reliable source and engage here but instead you choose to report me Weatherextremes (talk) 20:22, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Both of you have broken WP:3RR on this today. Stop.

As far as the source goes, https://web.archive.org/web/20210124222106/http://travelfullstop.com/sevilla-spain-the-hottest-city-in-europe/ is a user-generated blog (actually an archived copy of a dead user-generated blog), and thus is not a reliable source. If you wish to claim that "Seville is the warmest city in Continental Europe" then provide a WP:RS that says so, not a blog posting. Meters (talk) 20:41, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: excuse me but what? What "public forum" is that and what's the relationship with Wikipedia? No, I didn't know anything about that and it's obvious that you are editing as well in the meteoclub.gr website because you literally edit everything here on Wikipedia after it's being published on meteoclub.gr which again, 2 Wiki Admins told you already it's not a reliable source and you know it as well, since in the own TOS of the "meteoclub" website says "it's an amateur club where everyone can share their feelings/thoughts about the Greek Meteorology" proof: https://www.meteoclub.gr/poioi-eimaste does that sound like reliable to you? Albeit if you're not the one creating those blog entries (which I really doubt) that source is not reliable and it shouldn't be mentioned in any Wikipedia article, so please don't use double standards when editing other articles. I'm ok with removing the fact that Sevilla is the warmest city in continental Europe (which it really is, because it's only matched by Downtown Athens HNMS station, although Athens has many stations and most are colder, but nevermind) but please refrain yourself from doing the same stuff in Greek related articles where you deliberately write things based on meteoclub.

This is unrelated to Seville but I take profit of this talk to tell you this, since you would probably delete it if I wrote this in your talk page. If you want to edit properly Wikipedia with reliable Greek weather/climate data, then use HNMS official sources, use official reports of the National Observatory of Athens (official reports from their site, not gathered in meteoclub where it can be edited by anyone) and even regional data, as long as it's official, for example Attica's official website.

@Meters: I can see, I thought it was a more reliable website but the entire website is dead (I thought only that article was dead) so I'm ok with that if that was just user generated. --TechnicianGB (talk) 21:13, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

It's not unreliable because the website is dead. Sources do not have to be online, and we have an archived copy. It is unreliable because it was a user-generated blog. See WP:BLOGS Meters (talk) 22:22, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Enough!Stop your accusations that I am editing meteoclub. This is really problematic behavior bordering a personal attack. Do not and I repeat do not claim again something which is totally baseless as I have explained very clearly. This does not show bone fide and it makes discussion very difficult with you, seeing that you stick to such a behavior. Now no, Seville is not the warmest city in continental Europe. Pretty much half of south Athens is by far the warmest area in continental Europe as shown by many of NOA Davis stations in south Athens compared head to head to Seville ones. Most importantly Piraeus is the warmest area in continental Europe according to the HNMS long term data for the same period with Seville's data (in case you want even more years of data worth from an HNMS station). But that's beside the point here. The point is that you tried to turn a clear content dispute into an edit war and all this by using personal attacks against me. Weatherextremes (talk) 21:26, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: Because I reply to you do you consider that a personal attack? I should recommend you to check Wikipedia:No personal attacks since I didn't say anything considered as a personal attack to you except for the claim I've made that it's you editing that meteoclub.gr site and even if it's not you (which is clearly you btw) you post it very fast on Wikipedia. See what I was talking about? I knew the root of this entire problem, you only wanted that phrase deleted because it directly collides with the data presented on meteoclub, it seems you don't seem to distinguish between "city" and "area" and these "many NOA Davis stations" you talk about are just 2 stations and both offer few years of data as they accuracy is disputed as well.

HNMS is the only official climatic source on Greek climate data, and even if you use NOA ones use at least 20 years of data (even if the climatological normals are made within 30 years of data) not cherry picking the warmest station in few years to try to make a point. So no, like it or not, Seville 1981-2010 is warmer than the warmest HNMS station of Athens with 1991-2020 data, just wait for Seville's 1991-2020 data which is even warmer. Also, Seville's AEMET station is not even extremely influenced by UHI like the NOA Athens unofficial stations you refer to, because the station is located at the Seville Airport and not in rooftops like the NOA stations in Athens. But since I don't have any reliable source to put back that phrase I won't, but you also have to stop making such extremely biased claims such as you've done right now saying "Athens is by far the warmest area in continental Europe" because there isn't any single source backing up your claims except for Meteoclub.gr which is not even considered as a valid source because it's an user generated club where everyone can edit as written in the TOS of that site so stop making such WP:OR unsourced claims or stop putting data based on WP:SPS like Meteoclub.gr.

That Seville phrase is already deleted. But as a reminder, unreliable sources aren't accepted on Wikipedia as well as WP:NPOV is a must. This discussion ends here. --TechnicianGB (talk) 21:49, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

I have been following Meteoclub daily 11 years now so yes, excuse me If I am quick to edit if a reliable article pops up. But no, I am not in the editing team of the website. But it is interesting that you want to open the discussion of how pretty much half of south Athens beats Seville's mean annual temps. Really I do not see the point of having it here but let me entertain you! The HNMS station of Piraeus is you know a real HNMS station and just because you do not believe the meteoclub data, this means nothing to the Greek Met community. The community knows that meteoclub has one of the most reliable database of articles in Greek meteorology. I have asked the admins to review again the website but I never heard back from them. In fact it is so reliable that is it even quoted by the National Technical University of Athens in this source [2] and it is in light of this source I have asked other admins to comment or check it out again. I noticed also that you left a message in my talk page about this issue which I will address here since you opened this very interesting discussion.

Can you imagine if Piraeus already beats Seville in the 1981-2010 means what it would do during the 1991-2020 period which has been hands down the warmest period by far in Greece and especially in Athens? Even the scientific magazine of NOA speaks of the new Athens climate in this new time series. Now lets go to the good staff! If you compare the downtown Seville Davis stations (you know stations similarly influenced by UHI) with the NOA Davis stations in South Athens you will see that south Athens is hands down the warmest area of continental Europe during the same period and with the same type of met stations compared to Seville. I specifically searched the warmest Seville Davis downtown station as suggested by meteoclub vs the warmest Davis NOA station in Athens (Triana vs Nea Smyrni). You can find the data of both here [3] , [4] and run the comparisons yourself, simple math calculations do not constitute original research so you are safe to use these data directly to wiki articles if you wish. Granted, the period of parallel operation of both stations is only around 10 years but still these data are a good indication that south Athens (including the Athens Riviera) is unbeatable in continental Europe. Hands down for that matter! Nea Smyrni NOA is around 0.3C warmer annually and that's not the only NOA station. Compare Triana's data also with Neos Kosmos, Faliro or even Harokopeio University NOA stations and you will see that all of these stations also beat the warmest Seville Davis station for the periods or respective parallel operation of the stations.

Now if you don't believe me, your own calculations, meteoclub or the National Technical University of Athens you can directly order HNMS data for say Piraeus. I have done that and the HNMS data that I ordered corroborate all the above sources. I had in fact suggested in the past that you go ahead and email HNMS to get the data yourself and set up a shared email account where the whole wiki community could verify these! If the cost is problematic (which it shouldn't since I believe it cost me around 20-30 euros) I offer to cover the cost myself (we can discuss this through email if you want). Weatherextremes (talk) 22:51, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: Look dude, you're not a bad Wiki Editor and you act nice, which is really good even if we had this discussion, because I've had several discussions on the past with other editors (no matter the topic, just like anyone had discussions) but some of them act really agressively or bad, and I appreciate you are well educated, as you can see I also reply in the same exact way, so don't think I personally attack you or anything like that, because you are polite.

Look, let me tell you something, I don't have any problems with your edits or with meteoclub and that's why I'm not deliberately deleting everything coming from that site, because I do believe for example in the HNMS compilations from meteoclub, but keep something in mind, throwing a phrase such as "Southern Athens is the warmest place in Europe by far" is an unsourced, sentimental statement which needs a real background to be real, like for example an extended work that compares it with other places of Europe, whilst it doesn't, for example, the warmest areas of Portugal, Spain, Italy, Cyprus, don't have any reliable meteorological station, Greece at least has the NOA ones, these other Southern European countries don't. So that's why I find way too exaggerate to make such a statement when the only source is meteoclub. It doesn't matter if it's another person writing that, but meteoclub has serious flaws as a source because under the "sources" paragraph, as you can see they just put bold text instead of linking to real sources. And even if it's not a blog these are blog entries, and the TOS of the site clearly state it's a place for amateur meteorologists to share their thoughts and feelings, pretty similar to a forum.

Also, it's probably true that a couple of stations can be slightly warmer (0.2 - 0.3 is very slightly, not hands down) than Seville because of the extreme summer lows in Athens, but take in mind these aren't cities but stations, because as you know Athens has like 10-15 stations counting the NOA ones as well, because it's way more complex in geography/topography than Seville is, as Seville is at a low altitude near a river, Athens is a lot more complex. I didn't even know about that Seville IMS Davis website with the Triana station, it looks really interesting and I will see it. I believe you've done your calcullations, if that's the result you get, I believe it. Kalinychta! --TechnicianGB (talk) 23:14, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the nice words. I also understand that you are thorough and educated and we had same discussions in the past which ended amicably that's why it surprises me that you keep on reporting me when I try to avoid this at all costs. Anyhow, you are right that Athens is much more complex that's why we can say for example Nea Smyrni, a suburb of Athens is the warmest area of continental Europe the past decade. I mean it's all how you phrase it!Besides, Piraeus, Nea Smyrni, even Faliro constitute cities (municipality seats according to Greece's administrative division) according to ELSTAT (Greece's Stats National Service). They are just past of metropolitan Athens. Try saying to a person from Piraeus that it is not a city separate to Athens and you will risk your life :). Anyhow, do the calculations yourself. You will see I am right and I got the insight from Meteoclub and their team.

Buenas Noches!!! Weatherextremes (talk) 23:50, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Unreliable tourist blog source

The source claiming Seville is the warmest in continental Europe here [5] is an unreliable tourist blog source which needs to go. Weatherextremes (talk) 20:36, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: Don't worry, I have deleted it already as I've actually inserted an official European Space Agency (ESA) source backing up the same claim. https://earth.esa.int/web/earth-watching/image-of-the-week/content/-/article/seville-spain/

The official website of the European Space Agency claims "Seville is the hottest major metropolitan area in Europe" as shown in the source. This is already an A-grade official source so I've removed the other source. --TechnicianGB (talk) 14:28, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

However this is a reference regarding the maximums and not the average annual T. So I am correcting it for accuracy Weatherextremes (talk) 15:21, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: Please don't make further changes again if they don't have consensus, let's first clarify things here in the talk page. Thing is that, you've deleted official AEMET data regarding the annual average of 19.2ºC, can I know why exactly? The 19.2ºC average is an addition based on the official AEMET data, what is referenced is the statement regarding it's the warmest/hottest major city in Europe. If you see, they put a comma before saying anything about the summer average temperatures.

So it's actually saying "Seville is the hottest major metropolitan area in Europe" and then, they say "with summer average high temperatures of above 35 °C." which is an additional statement that doesn't break up the fact they've said before when it says "Seville is the hottest major city in Europe". They just put additional information about the summer temps. Also the 19.2ºC average comes directly from AEMET. Why did you delete that? --TechnicianGB (talk) 16:44, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

No it is not an additional statement. It is a clarification of the hottest designation. You need a source that clearly and verbatim verifies your claim that with a mean annual temperature X Seville is the warmest in CE. You can add the 19.2C reference in the Spain sentence I have added. What you are doing by keeping the wording like that is twisting the meaning of your own source. Weatherextremes (talk) 16:49, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Also this is a content dispute between you and me once again. If I count correctly so far in the climate article your have added two blog sources to back up your claim and now you are providing a source that nowhere does it say anything about the mean annual T. Weatherextremes (talk) 16:52, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: First of all, the official AEMET numbers have to prevail. That's why it starts saying the official annual T from AEMET. Second, the phrase saying "the hottest major city in Europe" is directly shown in the ESA source, not specifically mentioning the annual T as that is inserted from the AEMET source. ESA also says it's the warmest, which is something you've had a problem with (you seem to be the only user in Wikipedia to have a problem with that statement) where have you read in the Wikipedia TOS that the source specifically needs to say both the statement and the temperature? The temperature comes from AEMET thus it's directly referenced from AEMET and the statement comes from ESA thus it's directly referenced by ESA. You have literally 0 reasons to delete anything this time as both are A-grade sources. Also, the previous source wasn't exactly a blog as you claim, but whatever. You just came from a 3-month block and you're following the same path again? --TechnicianGB (talk) 16:57, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

With the edit I just made now I make clear that the AEMET numbers are first but the meaning is not twisted as your wording is basically implying something that the ESA source does not say! You have been blocked if I remember correctly as well in the climate of Greece dispute. Remember we were both blocked after you initiated the report to admins.So check out my edit which is much more balanced IMHO. Weatherextremes (talk) 17:06, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: It says exactly this: With an annual average of 19.2 °C (67 °F), the city of Seville is the warmest major metropolitan area in Europe and Spain.

So, the annual average T comes from AEMET and it's properly sourced by an AEMET source. The hottest statement comes from ESA and it's properly sourced by ESA: And there is an additional Spanish Newspaper that covers up the other thing. As you can see, there are 3 different things (split up by commas or points) and all of these 3 things have specifical reliable sources. Why are you deleting or making changes over this? I don't understand your point. --TechnicianGB (talk) 17:04, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Check my latest edit. Two different sentences need to be included in the article as the ESA source does not say anything about the mean annual T! You need a source that verbatim verifies your claim or else it is just twisting the facts of your own source. What don't you understand exactly? Weatherextremes (talk) 17:09, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: from where did you took the statement that "you need a source that verbatim verifies your claim" what don't you understand that these are 3 things with 3 different sources, one for each?

I give you an hour to revert your last edit so you can show everyone that you are open to engage in the talk section to properly edit in Wikipedia and to seek a consensus instead of trying to impose again your own POV.

If you don't do it, you don't leave me another choice than reporting you again so an administrator can take actions to explain you things again. It seems you didn't have enough in the past and you do the same again when you got unblocked just 3 days ago? Prove you want to change or I won't have any other option than to report you. These are 3 different statements with one source for each, and Wikipedia:TOS doesn't say anything about what you are saying. --TechnicianGB (talk) 17:18, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

You are giving me an hour? I am sorry but this behavior is unacceptable, are you trying to bully me? Are you pretending that you do not understand that by keeping the sentence with a coma that you are twisting your own source resulting in synth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Synthesis_of_published_material. This is why you need a verbatim source. The ESA source does not say anything about the mean annual T! It mentions clearly the high maximums. That is why my proposed edit is a correct representation of your sources. You have tried the past 6 months adding 2 unreliable blog sources and now an irrelevant to the mean annual Ts source just to prove your thesis that Seville is the warmest city in continental Europe on average. Please find a source that clearly talks about mean annual temperatures and clearly stipulates that Seville is the warmest in Europe in this regard. You know very well from our discussions back in December that you can not find a reliable statement like this. Weatherextremes (talk) 17:32, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: Here you have a source from the UIA Initiative (official European Union LIFE programme) source that specifically says "Sevilla, Spain, is the warmest city in continental Europe" You can find this statement under the "Executive Summary" paragraph: https://www.uia-initiative.eu/en/news/cartujaqanat-recovering-street-life-climate-changing-world-journal-2-how-sevilla-moving-needle at this point you can't reject this fact since this is not any blog but an official European Union site that says exactly what's written now in the page. Any further edits from this point would be just yourself contradicting an official European Union source thus making it disruptive. I know this can interfere with your personal POV and beliefs, but as you can see, even an EU source says the same. The annual temperature is separately referenced by the AEMET source, but if you have a problem with that, you can delete it, as the "Warmest city in Continental Europe" sentence is specifically verbatim verified and sourced. --TechnicianGB (talk) 18:02, 3 April 2022 (UTC)