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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Legobot (talk | contribs) at 20:20, 4 April 2022 (Transcluding GA review). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Comments

I've read through the article and have a few comments.

  • (1) I have a copy of Lutyens and the Great War (2008) and have re-read the chapter on the Cenotaph (pages 37-47) and there is lots more that can be said. The current use of this reference gets the page numbers wrong and only uses it to cite one sentence in the article.
  • (2) More also in Lutyens's Cenotaph, Allan Greenberg, Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians, Vol. 48, No. 1 (Mar., 1989), pp. 5-23.
  • (3) There is also a page at the National Archive, which may help with some pointers to elsewhere, even if it can't be used itself.
  • (4) Despite numerous recent sources crediting the wording on the Cenotaph to Rudyard Kipling, there are also many sources (older and more reliable) that state that the wording on The Cenotaph came from Lloyd George. In Lutyens and the Great War, on page 42, it says that the wording was "supposedly suggested by Lloyd George". There are numerous other sources that state this as well. I'm not sure where the idea that it was Rudyard Kipling has come from. Kipling was literary advisor to the Imperial War Graves Commission and suggested and composed many of the inscriptions that they used, but this is not an IWGC/CWGC monument. If you search Lutyens, the work of the English architect Sir Edwin Lutyens (1869-1944), you will see that on page 48 the origin of the words is credited to Lloyd George.
  • (5) One thing that could be added to the article immediately are the details of the unveiling in 1946 by King George VI after the dates of the Second World War were added.

I hope the above is useful. I'll try and help out where I can, but that should be enough for now. Carcharoth (talk) 02:08, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Kipling word itself I think is probably suspicious. From what I can find from doing some searches he supposedly proposed some rather poetic words for another cenotaph and I think it might have been mixed up with the Whitehall one. Miyagawa (talk) 11:49, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed that part of the sentence for now until we can be clear what is reliably verifiable and why more recent sources differ from the older sources. Would you be happy to change it to Lloyd George with a suitable source, or do we need to be sure that the more recent sources are not based on some recent scholarship that overturned the previous work? I doubt this would be the case, as the older sources appear to be based on the actual notes by Lutyens on the diagrams he drew, but it does need checking. Carcharoth (talk) 23:21, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dissertation

Noting here a dissertation on the topic, which may or may not be suitable for inclusion in the article. Carcharoth (talk) 02:12, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Catafalque

Another (possibly non-free) picture of the Paris catafalque is here. That site also contains other pictures of that monument from various angles. Carcharoth (talk) 02:33, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Union Jacks

Are the Union Jacks on the Cenotaph the civil/state flag (1:2) or the war flag (3:5)? Timrollpickering (talk) 13:19, 10 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure. Is there an easy way to tell? It is intended to represent the British Army, and the Union Flag article states that in the war flag version "the innermost points of the lower left and upper right diagonals of the St Patrick's cross are cut off or truncated", but I can't see that difference in the images used there. Best thing to do is find out who is responsible for maintaining the flags and see if their instructions go into that level of detail. English Heritage have maintained the monument since 1999, but I'm not sure if they deal with the flag changing or not. Carcharoth (talk) 03:53, 13 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As it is flown alongside the various ensigns, which have a theoretical ratio of 1:2 (a lengthy discussion of the actual ratio of the White Ensign is here), I strongly suspect that the Union Jack must also be 1:2 or it would stick out like the proverbial sore thumb. Alansplodge (talk) 11:28, 29 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Cenotaph in Middlesbrough?

In the replica section of Cenotaphs there is an exact replica of the London Centaph in Middlesbrough, England which I feel should be in this article. Tony (talk) 21:47, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Cenotaph, Middlesbrough. Thank-you for that. I have added a sentence to the article with two sources, one for the design (derived from Lutyens, not an exact copy) and one for the date of unveiling (that source includes a picture of the unveiling). Carcharoth (talk) 22:24, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Conservation

It was removed as not being a reliable source, but I think this (rescued and placed in external links for now) is a reliable source on a fascinating subject that would enhance the article if included. Carcharoth (talk) 13:46, 1 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I had to rescue this link again. Please ping me if links appear dead, as I am willing to go hunting for them if needed. Carcharoth (talk) 11:32, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cultural and social history

There will be huge numbers of mentions and longer writings on this topic in cultural history and social history books and similar sources (as well as the standard histories). It won't be easy to cover this aspect of things, but hopefully it will be possible. Carcharoth (talk) 13:49, 1 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just added Edkins (2003) and ter Schure (2019) to the bibliography as a starting point for examples of where the Cenotaph is used as case studies in such disciplines. The treatment of the philosophy of Henri Bergson might have to go into further reading if it is a bit too abtruse. Carcharoth (talk) 12:18, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Photographs

Links to some photographs where it does not seem possible to upload them:

Carcharoth (talk) 13:18, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

Starting a discussion section for sources that should be used in the article (I've given what I think is the most recent edition). The first three are from a discussion on my talk page.

  • Biographies of Lutyens
  • Jay Winter, Sites of Memory, Sites of Mourning: The Great War in European Cultural History, Cambridge University Press, 2014
  • Ana Carden-Coyne, Reconstructing the Body: Classicism, Modernism, and the First World War, Oxford University Press, 2009

Bit of trivia, while rummaging around Wikipedia articles, I found a reference to the Cenotaph in the film Jackboots on Whitehall (no, I'd never heard of it before either). Carcharoth (talk) 12:46, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cenotaph poem by Charlotte Mew

A fair amount has been written about the poem 'The Cenotaph' by Charlotte Mew. Not sure where is the best place to have a summary of that? Either its own article, or in Mew's article, and maybe a bit here? Several pages on the poem are in The Remembered Dead: Poetry, Memory and the First World War (2018) from page 119 onwards. There is lots of other commentary on this poem as well. So it would be possible to flesh out the bare bones of what is currently in this article, but am wary of putting too much in - there is also a need to balance the coverage (lots will have been written about the other poems as well, especially Sasson's anti-war poem). Carcharoth (talk) 11:56, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree we definitely need to at least mention the most significant representations in the arts, but we don't want to bog this article down with detail. There might even be scope for a daughter article or list, like cultural representations of the Cenotaph or the Cenotaph in culture or list of artistic representations of the Cenotaph, depending on how much material there is. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:15, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BLM Vandalism

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/police-dispel-rumours-cenotaph-being-18360724

Apparently the vandalism didn't actually happen. Is this a reputable source, and can anyone find the quote from the Met about it? Amekyras (talk) 21:56, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cenotaph and Unknown Warrior

I just found this in Bryan, Rachel (February 2021). "Unlived Lives, Imaginary Widowhood and Elizabeth Bowen's A World of Love". The Review of English Studies. 72 (303): 129–146. doi:10.1093/res/hgaa043. which perhaps could be worked into the article somewhere appropriate: "Writing to the architect Edwin Lutyens, who had been responsible for the Cenotaph’s design, David Lloyd George outlined why the British public had been given these two distinct centres towards which to direct their grief: ‘The Cenotaph’, he observed, ‘is the token of our mourning as a nation; the Grave of the Unknown Warrior is the token of our mourning as individuals’" which in turn is cited to "David Lloyd George, ‘Letter to Edwin Lutyens, 17 November 1920’, quoted in Hanson, Unknown Soldier, 462." DuncanHill (talk) 14:20, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

DuncanHill, just what I need, more reading material! ;) Thanks for raising it. There's definitely more to say about the Cenotaph and the Unknown Warrior. I'll probably work it in as I continue with the expansion. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:35, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@DuncanHill: I've worked in a reference to it now. I'm still working on the article, but that gets it in and gets that paper into the bibliography. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:23, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HJ Mitchell: Thanks, I thought it captured something meaningful about the two and their relationship. DuncanHill (talk) 16:21, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More on Unknown Warrior and unveiling of Cenotaph

(Following up a talk page ping.) Just quickly adding (to follow on from the above section): the current treatment of the unveiling of the Cenotaph doesn't quite capture how the event was tightly bound up with the burial of the Unknown Warrior. If you read the account at The Unknown Warrior, the unveiling of the Cenotaph is depicted as part of the overall funeral procession. But this article (about the Cenotaph), doesn't quite strike the same tone. The Salisbury painting captures this well. No other specific suggestions, other than to say thanks for including the Edkins reference. I thought the 'ter Schure' reference might be too obscure. :-) Carcharoth (talk) 18:18, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'll have another look at that. I've tried to focus on events as they affected the Cenotaph and not go too much into detail that is (or should be) in other places, like the Unknown Warrior's article, because I'm conscious that this article is already 6,000 words, but there's obviously more to say here. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:04, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bergson and History (Leon ter Schure, 2019)

An excerpt (the introduction) from Bergson and History is here. It does seem too abstract, but Leon ter Schure does explain what he intended with his chapter 1 ('The Case of the London Cenotaph'), which is described as an "evaluation of a current debate in the philosophy of history", where the author makes the claim:

that the Cenotaph succeeded in turning the past into a 'disquieting presence' [that] interrupted the official narrative of the war.

As I said above, maybe this tidbit on Henri Bergson may only be suitable for further reading? I've tried to obtain a copy of the work to assess it further, but have not managed it yet (free samples only give part of the chapter). Carcharoth (talk) 20:11, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

UPDATE: I have just found I do have access to this book (I have a subscription to the Perlego library). I will skim-read it now... It is... interesting (but doesn't appear vital). Will need to read in a bit more detail later! Carcharoth (talk) 20:23, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Origins

Harry - It’s looking good. Somewhere, but I can’t remember where just now, there’s a book reference, with illustration, to Lutyens’ original sketch - on a napkin? It’s probably Vita Sackville-West, given her mother’s connection with Lutyens, and I think I came across it when doing Sissinghurst. I’ll try to dig it out this weekend. I’ve unfortunately not got time to pick up the GA in full, but will be delighted to read it through and lob in any thoughts. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 20:27, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:The Cenotaph/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Tim riley (talk · contribs) 20:13, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Starting first read-through now. Comments to follow. Tim riley talk 20:13, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Review

This article seems to me already of FA standard, and I don't foresee any problem whatever in elevating it to GA before you take it to FAC. A handful of drafting points and one factual query:

  • Background
  • We have the BrE "adviser" on one line followed by the AmE "advisor" on the next. Better stick to the former.
  • "The word cenotaph derives from the Greek term kenotaphion" – you translate the Greek word in the lead, but it would be as well, I think, to do so again in the main body of the text.
  • Origins: the temporary Cenotaph
  • "Lloyd George and the French president" – later on you mention the German president and add his name. I think that's a good idea, and I suggest you name the French president here. (It was Raymond Poincaré, I see from the archives.)
  • While looking in the archives for the name of the French president I noticed that the press reports seem to indicate that although Poincaré unquestionably bore a wreath and laid it at 11 a.m., Lloyd George's and the King's wreaths were placed on the Cenotaph beforehand. Lloyd George and most of the cabinet watched from the steps of the Home Office. I see no suggestion in the press reports that a way had to be cleared. I think this sentence could perhaps be revisited.
  • Unveiling
  • "…the cortege continued it journey—His Majesty, the other royals, Lloyd George, and the archbishop following…" – two things here: I imagine "it" must be a typo for "its", and I rather think MoS purists will purse a lip or two at "His Majesty" instead of "the king" (though personally I think it reads beautifully).
  • Later history
  • using steam to and a poultice to remove dirt" – something not right here: should the "to" be a different word?
  • Remembrance services
  • As you've mentioned the Archbishop of Canterbury earlier, readers may assume the current Archbishop leads the service, and so perhaps it might be as well to mention that it is led by the Bishop of London.
  • "The monarch and the prime minister then lay wreaths at the cenotaph" – in recent years the Queen has watched from a balcony while the Prince of Wales has laid her wreath. You may need to fudge this sentence a bit.
  • "Until the second World War" – usual to capitalise all three nouns in the phrase.

Those are my few quibbles. Over to you. – Tim riley talk 08:22, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for casting a thorough eye over it, Tim. These are exactly the sort of things I was hoping to catch before FAC rather than during it. I believe I've addressed all but two points: I'm not sure the Bishop of London's role is important enough to the Cenotaph; I've tried to keep the focus on the monument because the annual service has its own article. I'm travelling this week so can't consult my books, but the way being cleared comes straight from one of the cited sources (Richardson, I think). I'll have to check on that when I'm home at the weekend. As for His Majesty, I thought some might not like it but I think it reads better than repetition of "the king". Thanks again, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:12, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fine as to omitting mention of the Bishop of London, and very fine indeed with "His Majesty" (though the best of British luck with it at FAC!), but I'm sufficiently concerned about what looks like dodgy info that (i) LG laid a wreath at the same time as Poincaré did, and (ii) that they had to have the way cleared for them, that I don't think I can in conscience promote the article till this is adequately addressed. (I don't, let me add, mind being proved wrong, but in the face of a pile of press reports to the contrary, I shall want pretty convincing proof.) As this is the only outstanding point I don't propose to put the review on formal hold − unless you wish it − and will just wait till the weekend when you have access to your shelves. − Tim riley talk 18:31, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's absolutely fine with me. I wasn't planning to do anything until I'm back at a proper keyboard anyway! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:13, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Tim, quoth Lloyd "It was only with enormous difficulty the police were able to clear a space for the carriage of the French president and Lloyd George so they could lay wreaths at the Cenotaph". He goes on in quite some detail about the gathered crowd and the policing of it. Gregory says "the king and queen sent a wreath to be placed at the foot of the Cenotaph", then has a lengthy excerpt from the Daily Express which includes "the mounted police, with great skill and courtesy, diverted the crowd from the main road to the footpaths" and goes on to talk about LG laying a wreath (though doesn't mention the French president). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:03, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That confirms my doubts about what the article currently says: "it took the intervention of the police to create space for Lloyd George and the French president, Raymond Poincaré, to lay a wreath at 11 am" The police may have had to clear the way for LG to lay his wreath, but he had already laid it and was standing on the Home Office steps before Poincaré arrived at 11.00 to lay his. They didn't arrive together and lay a single wreath. Tim riley talk 08:45, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How do you feel about this amendment? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:32, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely fine, if you add the missing indefinite article in "Lloyd George to lay wreath". I'm happy to promote to GA now, and I hope I may see the article at FAC. If you take it there please ping me. Tim riley talk 19:49, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Overall summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    Well referenced.
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    Well referenced.
    C. No original research:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused:
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    Well illustrated.
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
    Well illustrated.
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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