Talk:Ballet

Intro

I removed the following piece:

It incorporates alignment, flexibility, exercises, and center work in a disciplined curriculum. Typical ballet classes consist of a barre and center work; more advanced classes include adagio, petit allegro, and grande allegro sections.

Reasons: (a) a piece was put by an anonim into an arbitrary place, out of logic flow of the article. (b) Even if the phrase is correct, it is full of terminology and useless: both experts and ignorants learn nothing. Mikkalai 22:16, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

If you were talking about women the way you talk about ballet, you would hear from thousands of angry women. It lacks sensibility, and shows no concern for the person that doesnt know anything about ballet, and knowing the realibility of wikipedia checks it there, and what a fiasco.

should there be a page for ballets (ballet dances)? this page needs more information and links to the various aspects of ballet such as ballet lessons, history, choregraphers etc etc Ohka- 23:14, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

I think there should be a page for ballets. I'm working on it... so far I've done Romantic and Neoclassical Ballet, so I hope to see feedback/corrections/etc mary 22:48, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

what's needed

• a better main entry
• history of ballet page
• ballet timeline
• the ballletcatergories need to have pages created (eg romantic ballet)
• the other methods need pages
• important ballets need pages
• famous ballet companies need thier pages
• ballet artists
• ballet catergories
• Different schools - russian, italian, etc.
• All the different ballet exams

81.153.52.218 07:56, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Mariinsky - Kirov Ballet

To help clear up any confusion:

• 1790 - 1917: Mariinsky Ballet
• 1917 - 1935: Academic State Theatre Ballet
• 1935 – 1991: Kirov Ballet
• 1991 -  : Mariinsky Ballet

The Ballet company has alway been a part of the part of the Theatre (Mariinsky Theatre, Academic State Theatre, Kirov Theatre). The name changes reflect the political suituation in russia at that particular time.

When touring outside Russia the ballet company is called the Kirov Ballet

see: What is the official name of the Kirov-Mariinsky Ballet?

I actually have that article up on my computer now (I think I'm gonna re-write the Kirov article tommorow). That's why I made the page move, and changed the wording around, so that it's more appropiate to the current day. Lyellin 13:48, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)

This is not Correct Lyellin

I know its been a long while since user:Lyellin put up this post, but from 1790 until circa 1917 the Kirov/Mariinsky Ballet was known as the Imperial Ballet.

QUOTE - "The Ballet company has alway been a part of the part of the Theatre (Mariinsky Theatre..." - this is not correct either. From 1783 until 1886, the Imperial Ballet and Opera's home theatre was the Imperial Bolshoi Kamenny Theatre. This building was declared unsafe in 1886, and so the companies relocated to the Imperial Mariinsky Theatre (the theatre's title at that time).

--Mrlopez2681 02:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

contemporary vs. classical ballet

What are the differences between contemporary and classical ballet?--Hhielscher 21:53, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Classical ballet focuses more on the technical aspects of dance that have been used for years, especially by Russian companies. Contemporary ballet tends to focus more on emotion and movement than technique.

Ballet and its gendering

Someone should address the contemporary controversy around Ballet--the common tie to eating disorders, the gendering and caricaturing of women, the problems with the implicit gender/power dynamics, and so on. Unfortunatly I know only about the subject, not much of it. -bmortimer 8 November 2005

I'm intrigued by the phrase "gendering and caricaturing of women." Classical ballet certainly includes female characters that aren't ideals for today's women, but these are historic pieces, much like the plays of Shakespeare. Are you objecting to a current practice in the world of dance, or the performance of more traditional ballets? -pmerz 8 August 2006

Something definately needs to mentioned about eating disorders and the obsession with thinness and the "right body" within the modern ballet community. Gender (the fact that male dancers are seen as "gay" by many people outside the ballet world, ect.) should also be discussed. This article has really improved since I first read it, although I still think alot could be added to make it even better. CerealBabyMilk 07:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Photo

Why do some of the snowflakes have 5-fold symmetry?

Actually, I think the photo for this page needs to be replaced - none of the dancers are actually in technically-correct positions, and (looking at it from a dancer's viewpoint), that hurts this page's credibility. Not entirely sure where to find a usable non-copyrighted photo though.

—I agree.

There must be someone who would be willing to donate a picture to this page of more technically accurate dancing. Also, the caption refers to the composer's name, instead of the choreographer's or dance company who is performing. I think Tchaikovsky is swell, but certainly he didn't stage this particular production?

I've looked around, but I can't find any. I uploaded two pictures I took (they're on my page) but they were with a crappy camera and no flash; and one was from about thirty feet away, backstage, between costume changes. In my opinion the ballet picture being used now needs rapid replacement, but I'm not sure a fuzzy picture would be any better... I'm going to try to contact the gentleman in charge of the Ballerina Gallery and ask if he has any copyright-free pictures or protected ones he's willing to donate. --Editor at Large 14:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The new photo of Paloma Herrera as Sylvia is a great image, but I'm a little uneasy about its provenance. The caption says Photo credit: Gene Schiavone, but the photo's page says Photo by Marty Sohl. It also says "This image was obtained from Kelly Ryan, the Director of Press and Public Relations at ABT. In contact with Rmrfstar through email." But it's not clear to me whether the copyright owner (Schiavone? Sohl? Ryan? ABT?) has really offered it under the GFDL license, as claimed on the wikimedia commons page at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Sylherrera.jpg , or whether this is just fair use, as stated on the WP page. I'm also not at all convinced that the fair use rationale is valid --- the photo is higher resolution than necessary, and replaced a GFDL-licensed one. I'll drop a message to Rmrfstar and ask for clarification.--24.52.254.62 04:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

User Rmrfstar has taken the Paloma Herrera photo out, since he agrees with me that it's not an appropriate case of fair use. I've replaced it with a cropped and retouched version of the older GFDL'd photo of a Nutcracker performance, with a caption referring to the fact that she's on pointe. This version cuts out the dancers in the background. Were the technical problems people were complaining about just problems with the dancers in the background, or is the dancer doing the arabesque also doing something wrong? If so, then another image that could be used instead is Image:Violetta_Elvin.jpg.--24.52.254.62 16:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

No, her arabesque is incorrect as well; her alignment, arm positions, and legs are all off -- as well as the fact that her supporting foot is photoshopped in. The Violetta Elvin image is actually being used already on the En pointe page (I used it to replace a TERRIBLE image, which basically showed how not to stand en pointe). I sent an e-mail to the owner of The Ballerina Gallery asking if he had any copyright-free images, but have not as yet recieved a response. It's been over a month, so I don't know if I will. At any rate, I'm going to start bringing my camera to rehersals and start snapping pictures. Maybe I'll end up with a good one, if I can use the flash this time... — Editor at Large^(speak) 17:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that it looks like the Maya Plisetskaya photo is going to go away. There are thousands of old Soviet-era photos on WP and wikimedia commons, all of which were posted with copyright templates claiming that they were public domain; however, it seems pretty clear now that that interpretation of the law was just wrong: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:PD-Soviet , and the images are going to be deleted. It would be great if you could take some pictures at rehearsals. While you're at it, how about photos demonstrating the five positions? That would be really cool and useful!--24.52.254.62 18:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Portal:Dance

Portal:Dance has been started. Please have a look. --Roland2 12:10, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

David and Goliath

I've added David and Goliath (ballet) to Goliath (disambiguation), but the article does not yet exist. And there seems to be no list of ballets to add it to. Michael Hardy 23:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Article revamp

In my humble (or not, depends) opinion, I think that this article needs an enormous revamp. It needs to be completely re-written, more info needs to be added, and the useless stuff needs to be taken out. I'm going to go ahead and start working on it. — Editor at Large^(speak) 22:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

There are a reasonable amount of ballet-related articles floating around Wikipedia, this article should probably attempt to present most of them either in prose format or annotated list. Additionally, since technique is so huge in ballet, there should at least be a section for it. Also maybe the classic faceoff between Russian and Royal ballet (oh and ABT). --Keitei (talk) 23:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Intro

• Fencing stuff needs to be moved out (into history?) -removed
• More info on how ballet is unique should be added
• No subjectivity

History

• Looks pretty good, but could be longer and more in depth, perhaps History of ballet spin out?
• Recent history needs expanding

Technique

• Basic outline of essentials
• Differing schools

Ballet...

Most people think that Ballet is easy. Those people are wrong. Ballet takes strength, perseverence, and patience. You need to take the time of day to practice though. If you don't work hard to build up your muscles, then you will never be able to proceed and learn more. You also would never be able to go on to Pointe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.255.62.122 (talk • contribs)

I have yet to hear anyone saying that ballet is easy. I went to see "An Introduction to the Ballet," At the ballet theatre in Melbourne last year and I was amazed by the strength of both the male and female Dancers!--Read-write-services 21:25, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

How it works

In my opinion, physics and perceptual illusion are essential to ballet. Its true you could enjoy, teach or perform w/o formal physics, based only on physical intuition and an artistic sense. But you couldn't explain or really understand it. Part of the art of ballet is to appear to defy gravity while working within its constraints. The spins and turns likewise depend on the laws of physics. Some readers may view view explanations as a kind of spoiler but they are free to skip the section. The article I cited is oriented to ballet more than other forms of dance.

Some of the posts convince me that confusion continues to exist. One editor wrote that the dancer stays up as long as possible. In reality a prima ballerina has no better chance than a hippopotamus of staying suspended in air! What is really happening? Curious readers willwant to know.

Knowledge of physics is not necessary at all to understand, teach, learn, or perform any dance form, though perhaps it can be beneficial. I have never seen a technical manual of dance which employs physics to illustrate a point, and I have read numerous manuals on the Cecchetti, Vaganova, Legat, Lifar, R.A.D, and Danish--and more--schools. While physics can describe the movements you see, explanations of dance movement that rely on physics generally reveal that the author has little or no knowledge of how the dancer achieves and maintains those positions in the first place, and the science of biomechanics never seems to be a consideration.

It's true, a prima ballerina is not "suspended" in air; she will fall 32 feet per second per second like anything else--after she "maxes out" her elevation. The quality of her jumps depends on how elastic her muscles are, not just how strong they are. This so-called suspension, what dancers call "ballon", is achieved by making a strong preparatory spring from a solid, "elastic" plie (knee bend), combined with the support and strength of the feet and legs, followed by stretching the arms and legs almost imperceptibly at the very "top" of the jump; it should look as if the whole body is taking a breath.

The article cited is probably more oriented to ballet because "ballon" is a quality specific to ballet. Modern dance, in contrast, is more earthbound, but having good "ballon" is an asset even to a modern dancer.

If you are looking to physicists to explain how dance movements are possible, or how they are executed, you are looking in the wrong place. You will find better answers from dancers & dance instructors, even from physical therapists (if you must have a "hard" scientific explanation). In the world of dance, the most brilliant physicist is a layperson and an amateur, who has some very interesting and perhaps helpful observations on the art.Roseblink 12:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Dubious tag

I've placed a {{dubious}} tag after this on the main page:

The first ballet produced and shown was Balthasar de Beaujoyeulx's Ballet Comique de la Reyne (1581) and was a ballet comique (ballet drama).

I've done this because the book I'm looking at now (Bland 1976) lists at least one other ballet as having been put on before this one (although it mentions this one at great length, spelled as Balet Comique de la Royne Louise). I think the operative word in this sentence is "produced", but I am unsure how this is quantified or where I could find a source to back this up. This book lists "the first French entertainment of this kind [ballet de cour] of which we have details" as being the Balet des Polonais (1573). Therefore, I think this bit of history merits clarification and I'd be much obliged if someone could clarify. :] --Keitei (talk) 09:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

You will find Ballet Comique de la Reine Louise spelled different ways, depending on the sources you consult. It is also important to define what you mean by "the first ballet"; because the ballet comique was a quite different entertainment than what we are accustomed to seeing when we go to the ballet these days. Generally speaking, it is correct to assert that this 1581 production was the first ballet; it is widely accepted as such by many sources, usually with some reason the author chooses Ballet Comique de la Reine Louise over another ballet. If you consult Lincoln Kirstein's "Four Centuries of Ballet", Kirstein says Balet des Polonais is "loosely termed a 'ballet'" (pg. 54, Dover publication, 1984).

Kirstein will always steer you in the right direction. In addition to Four Centuries, consult his A Short History of Classic Theatrical Dancing. If you consult Balanchine's New Complete Stories of the Great Ballets, you'll see Balanchine calls it Ballet Comique de la Reine (no Louise). It is best perhaps not to try to say definitively which ballet was the first ballet, but to describe why it is considered a ballet, and why it is considered to be the first ballet; any good history of ballet approaches it in this manner. The International Dictionary of Dance, edited by Selma Jean Cohen, who heads the UCR PhD in dance history program, will certainly have some fantastic information written by someone who is an expert. You might also consider looking at the Grove Dictionaries of Music & Opera; they are such excellent resources, and often have entries for dance productions.

Concerning the phrase "produced and shown", according to Kirstein, Le Ballet des Polonais (again, a minor spelling variation), "impressed an inflential yet limited audience of courtiers and diplomats". In comparison, he says the libretto for Ballet-Comique de la Royne Louise was published (and, one presumes, distributed) and the production was "widely imitated", thus reaching a larger audience than the earlier ballet. The fact that Ballet-Comique de la Royne Louise was a larger-scale work than Ballet des Polonais, and was better known, probably accounts for the fact that so often histories of dance begin with Ballet Comique de la Royne.Roseblink 13:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

What an AWFUL article

I cant believe that there are more lines devoted to Jean-Baptiste Lully than Marius Petipa or Jules Perrot or Balanchine!!! Oh Dear.......to make matters worse there is actually a photo of Lully !!! By the way, Lully didnt do ANY casting in the works he composed.

This article is in dire need of an entire re-write - the whole history of ballet is told in poorly researched fragments, with the most crucial epochs, dancers, works, composers, and choreographers not even mentioned - The old Paris Opera (the Academie Royale de Musique) and Her Majesty's Theatre, the two theatres that played host to the heyday of the Romantic ballet and saw the masterworks of Perrot, Paul Taglioni, and Saint-Leon; the Tsarist Imperial Ballet of St. Petersburg and Petipa's golden age, the grand Ballet Russe and Mikhail Fokine....

No mention of Nicholas Sergeyev using the Sergeyev Collection to stage Petipa's works/revivals for the Imperial Ballet for the first time in the west (i.e. The Sleeping Beauty, The Nutcracker, Swan Lake, Coppelia, Giselle, etc.)

And what is this ridiculous section on the "illusion of flight in ballet"....what the...?

--Mrlopez2681 02:28, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm really really sorry. I've been doing it chronologically. There is more on Lully because he was before the rest. What was there before was worse, I guarantee you, but I am nowhere near finishing it. I also despise how it currently claims ballet ended in 1850. Also, the illusion of flight in ballet section is one I hope to get rid of completely eventually...

What I've been doing is citing what is there, and planning on expanding later, which is why it is so crap. Your help would be greatly, greatly appreciated since I am very new in ballet history. I just ask that you add citations to whatever you add, so they don't have to be added later. The early Italian era needs to be expanded very badly also... Mostly all of it does. Yeah... this article has a long way to go. --Keitei (talk) 20:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)