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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 13 April 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

George Harrison

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George Harrison (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s):GabeMc (talk|contribs) and Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 03:05, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gabe and I first nominated this article back at the beginning of January. During the FAC, the article underwent substantial edits that added content, trimmed content, revised content, and rearranged content. The final product seemed to be a good synthesis of what most of the reviewers (with a few exceptions) thought the article should be. I have spent the last week or so thoroughly evaluating the article, and I am confident that there are no actionable objections left unresolved. If there are any that I've missed, I hope this FAC can clear them up quickly and get the article to where it needs to be. I'm confident that we're at least 95% there already. Thanks for your time in advance, everyone! Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 03:05, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Casliber

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I really didn't like four choppy paras for the lead - and have rejigged it to two - the first is for most famous facts and the second more personal. I like the flow and composition this way as I think it grabs the reader more.
His mother was a Liverpool shop assistant.. - unless there is something mysterious about Liverpool shop assistants I think we can lose the discriptor here...
Link tambura and EMI at first instance
Should Live Aid be italicised?
I don't think so. The topical article doesn't use them. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:23, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Harrison released no new albums for five years after 1982's Gone Troppo received little notice from critics and the public - err, grammar? word missing here?
Fixed? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:23, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:13, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Aargh, my bad - I kept reading "received" as a past tense active verb...was tired when I read it. I think the first way is the best (sorry), but that a comma after "years" helps flow a bit. (d'oh!) Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:05, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, most of it is in good shape - some bits are a bit choppy (the Early solo work: 1968–70 section - but not sure what to do here, I will think on it) and I wonder whether the guitar and guitar work sections could somehow be combined or segue on from one another. I need to sleep now Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:44, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've now moved the songwriting section to above "guitar work" and "guitars" so that the two later sections are consecutive. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 16:59, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have half a mind that these two sections should be combined and material threaded into chronological order...but not sure...it'd make the guitars section less listy. If you don't think this is a good idea, don't do it - I'm more just musing on this. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:17, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree on this point. IMO, to riddle the guitar work section with mentions of each notable guitar Harrison ever purchased would considerably diminish the quality and readability of the "guitar work" section. If "guitars" seems too listy, then it may need a copy-edit to smoothen it out, although I'm really not sure how we could run-down Harrison's notable guitar purchases in the form of engaging and/or brilliant prose. The section is by nature a bit boring to non-gear-heads. I'm certainly up for alternate suggestions though, and I'm curious what Evan has to say on this particular point. We appreciate your time and respect your opinion, so thanks much for the great comments Casliber! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:13, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The "Guitars" section is less listy now than when it was a list, so in that department we've seen a lot of improvement. I can see what you mean, though, Casliber. I wonder if it wouldn't help the flow to move the "Guitars" subsection down to the bottom of the "Musicianship" section, directly below "Sitar and Indian music." One downside to that is that we now have "Sitar and Indian music" flowing directly into the "Hinduism" subsection of "Personal life," making for an unbroken discussion of Harrison's life vis a vis Indian culture. It's probably not a big deal, but moving "Guitars" would break this flow. I would say that's not necessarily a bad thing.
I've cleaned up the prose a little and expanded on a few points to hopefully make it a little less listy. Not sure how much I've done, but it does read a little easier to me now. One thing to keep in mind is that the emphasis should be on how the guitars relate to Harrison's career as much as possible, and not simply about the guitars for their own sake. Thanks again for all your input, Casliber! Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 22:59, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Evan, per: "I wonder if it wouldn't help the flow to move the "Guitars" subsection down to the bottom of the "Musicianship" section": That's where it was before I moved some stuff around in response to Casliber's comment: "I wonder whether the guitar and guitar work sections could somehow be combined or segue on from one another." I agree with your comment about the "'Sitar and Indian music' [section] flowing directly into the 'Hinduism' subsection". I also like the way it currently flows, although I am certainly open to specific alternate suggestions. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:19, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The prose within I am happy with - this bit is not a deal-breaker. I am just trying to figure out some actionable items to address aspects I feel a little uneasy with - I will try to get some specifics up pronto. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:06, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've just tried comparing this article with John and Paul - they do flow better but I can't put my finger on why or how. I need to think on it - my initial concern was that the Beatles section was not George-centred enough, but it is on a par content-wise with the corresponding sections, so I am happy about that. I need to sleep now. Will have another look tomorrow. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:44, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's alright; I'll give it another look and see if I can find anything to tweak. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 21:51, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, the prose is tighter, which is a good thing. I asked Malleus Fatuorum and he replied thus. Looking at the old FAC page I saw notes from JG66 whose comments ring true for mine. I don't know enough about Harrison to know what can still be added, but I feel something still does. It would not need much, as some sections read better than others, but I reckon maybe 6-10 well positioned sentences which embellish or add colour to key points would be a big plus. I'd ask JG66 to prioritise this, particularly in Early life , Early solo work, a bit in his interest in handmade films are all good places to start. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:54, 23 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Casliber, if you look again at the previous FAC, you might notice that while JG66 wanted more and more detail to be added (to every section), SandyGeorgia opposed promotion based on his long review, and the length of the article, complaining that there was too much excess detail. So, basically, we made a choice to follow SandyGeorgia's advice over JG66's advice; perhaps a compromise middle position is best. I'll go through the article top-to-bottom and try to add detail where appropriate. Thanks again for your comments. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:00, 23 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this can be tricky. It is a bit like a sliding scale and where we leave the bar. The trick is removing fluffy prose and reducing it to give maximum info in as few words as possible, and then embellishing with some narrative. The article needs some more (concise) on Harrison's ideas, feelings, reflections and point of view - it doesn't need much to carry it over the line, but this would make it massively more appealing to read. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:35, 23 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Per your above comment: "a bit in his interest in handmade films"; are you suggesting that I add detail to this section? There is already a topical article dedicated to the subject, so what summary details are needed? I'm not seeing what you think is missing. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:01, 23 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, that is a good example - I'd like to see the comments about why he invested, and the quip by Jones is a classic that would make this article more engaging (and this material is as much about Harrison and his interests, as the company). Ultimately an ideal Handmade Films article would concentrate on the course of the company alot more, so Harrison's mention would only be relatively minor. However that is not the case with how the daughter article now stands. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:55, 23 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I'll do my very best to add some appropriate detail to the Handmade Films section, but FWIW, that quip from Jones is unsourced in the daughter article, and I have no idea which book its in (assuming it is verifiable), so I'll have to search my sources for a quote that may or may not be real ... GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:15, 23 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I searched and searched, but I cannot find that quote from Jones which you suggested from the daughter article, but I did find nearly the exact same statement from Idle. I think the "Handmade Films" section of the Harrison article is now about as detailed as it should be, but please correct me if I'm wrong. I've also now gone through the article and added some details where appropriate to help flesh-out, "Harrison the man". If you have any more specific suggestions, they would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for your effort. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:54, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The Handmade films section reads much much better now. The Early life is still a bit mechanical sounding - if I look at this version, the first three sentences of the last para are great - it is engaging and not trivial (he was a *&(%% guitar player so how he first go interested is integral) - I'd re-add it. Then, even just one sentence of what family life was like (warm/friendly/chaotic/whatever) in the upper half I think would help glue this section together. More later. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:06, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Casliber, per your above advice, I've now restored the datum: "Harrison sat at the back of the class and would often draw guitars in his schoolbooks. 'I was totally into guitars,' he later said." However; as far as "I heard about this kid at school who had a guitar at £3 10s, it was just a little acoustic round hole. I got the £3 10s from my mother: that was a lot of money for us then", 1) I cannot find this exact quote in any source. 2) According to Babiuk, the guitar being referred to here is one that Harrison broke soon after aquiring, and it sat broken and unused for some time, so its notability is questionable. The Egmond is the first notable guitar Harrison owned, as its the one he learned to play on. Any thoughts? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:37, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've made some additions to "Early years: 1943–57" that might have addressed this concern. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 02:56, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Getting better - I tacked the two sentences reflecting on humour and parents into otherwise dry first para - they might even go better further up the para, not sure. Second para then focuses more exclusively on music. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:23, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've now fleshed the section out a bit more, hopefully its not too much. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 06:01, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
addendum: Solo work: 1968–1987 would greatly benefit from anything HArrison thought retrospectively about it - did he later regard them as mistakes/fun/underrated/overrated/what? Any info on his later feelings about them would just make that bit a whole lot more engaging. It doesn't need to be much at all. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:11, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
addendum 2: Actually, given All Things Must Pass is regarded as his best work, a mention of what it meant for him - what was he trying to say - how he felt about it would go nicely at the end of the first para. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:19, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Does this edit resolve this specific concern? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 02:42, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think that helps. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:35, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Update - reading alot better now.
I would place the Cancer diagnosis, knife attack, illness and death: 1997–2001 subsection at the end of the Personal life section so it is further down the article. It looks odd reading about his dying and then back to handmade films etc.
I'd place the material from para 1 of Later life: 1988–2001 into the travelling wilbury's section as it is really about collaborating with those artists. It slots nicely chronologically at the bottom.
This then allows us to slot the remaining two paras after the beatles anthology section and thus make it all chronological.

To conclude, the extra colour added I think has helped bigtime in giving a narrative and sense of Harrison the man, and I feel we're on the cusp of in FA territory with this. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

John

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I was asked to comment; I opposed last time round then started mucking in and editing it and latterly withdrew my oppose. I don't know how ethical it is for me to support or oppose now. I'll note that on this read-through, I still see things that can be tweaked, though it's better than it was. I saw Malleus's critique of it and I am wondering about that too; I don't always agree with him but I always take his opinion seriously. Let me think some more. --John (talk) 20:29, 27 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

May be more to come. I love what you have done and it is definitely getting there. --John (talk) 10:00, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

JG66

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I've been asked to comment too, but there's not a whole lot that's changed since my oppose last time around. I'm interested by Malleus's opinion also (and it seems that a splinter discussion has started over there). When Malleus says "you have to have an overall idea of the story you're trying to tell", that's sort of what I meant by the "basic foundations" – which, from my knowledge of the life and music of George Harrison, still aren't here in the article. Personally, I only contribute to Harrison-related articles on wikipedia (but not Beatles articles), and I come to this one and it still doesn't adequately provide an overview of George Harrison's life. As I've said before, there's not enough of a sense of Harrison the non-Beatle – I don't necessarily mean detail, I mean it's not established as part of the foundation of this article. The Lennon article again comes to mind as an example of a biographical page that gives readers a definite idea of the man. To me, this one still reads more like an apology of an article; there's just not that engagement with the subject that's obvious in the Lennon piece and to a lesser extent in the McCartney one. And if this article is part of WP:Beatles (in a way, I wish it wasn't), why is it that the McCartney piece in particular can be so extraordinarily long, even when there are already generous articles covering that artist's musical career, personal relationships and the band Wings, yet this one is being limited to a specific word count? Yes, I know – an oppose at the previous FAC. But, with all due respect to SandyGeorgia, why weren't/aren't you nominees standing up to that oppose by citing the McCartney article as an example?

I'll give some specifics here, again, but I'd hope that my previous comments count for something in the final consideration.

  • Good to see some more text under Early life – this section finally extends beyond the level of the Arnold Grove pic on my screen. There's an interesting detail I'd add about Louise Harrison listening to the BBC's broadcasts of All India Radio while pregnant with George. It's either in Greene or Tillery, I think. I was fascinated to read that.
  • It's the idea of Harrison having possibly absorbed these sounds pre-birth that I think is really significant. I've found the mention in Greene (pp 1–2); here it is in full: "During her fourth and last pregnancy – with George – Louise's favorite program was a weekly broadcast called Radio India. Every Sunday she tuned in to mystical sounds evoked by sitars and tables, hoping that the exotic music would bring peace and calm to the baby in the womb." JG66 (talk) 15:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also in early life, I think you should add a sentence about his earliest musical influences. We hear about Elvis, brief mention of skiffle, but nothing else. Hoagy Carmichael, etc – loads in Leng, I'm sure.
  • Skiffle's only one part of it. Leng mentions Harrison's "formative childhood years" listening to Cab Calloway, Django Reinhardt and Hoagy Carmichael (p 302), "Harrison heroes Hoagy Carmichael and Big Bill Broonzy" (304), and: "The first music that he heard as a 1940s war baby remained a passion throughout his life, and he often celebrated George Formby, Cab Calloway, and Hoagy Carmichael in his work." (320) Note mention that follows there of Elvis, Carl Perkins, Eddie Cochran and Little Richard being "the music of his teenage years". I hope you'll agree that a sentence covering these early influences is important. JG66 (talk) 15:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I still think the wording's too fussy about his Indian instrumentation on individual Beatles tracks, as if each instance just has to be mentioned. I remember suggesting "the tabla- and sitar-driven 'Love You To'" rather than mentioning tambura again (after he "introduced" the instrument on "Tomorrow Never Knows"). I'd take that sentence starting "Further examples of Indian instrumentation from Harrison during his Beatles years ..." to sit as an endnote, but place the note following mention of swarmandal on "Strawberry Fields"; plus include the tambura part on "Lucy" as additional text in this note, not as a point made in the main text.
  • Way better. But again, why the standout phrase "Harrison also played sitar on the recording"? Why not: "The tabla- and sitar-driven "Love You To" was the Beatles' first genuine foray into Indian music. According to ethnomusicologist David Reck, the song set a precedent in popular music ..." ? JG66 (talk) 15:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seems like "Think for Yourself" needs to be mentioned in the endnote along with "If I Needed Someone", otherwise implication is that he contributed only the one song to Rubber Soul. The fact that all of Harrison's White Album comps are named makes this more apparent. (Still not sure why they are all named; I would've thought just "While My Guitar", for obvious reasons, and "Piggies", for the unfortunate Manson association, but never mind.)
  • Don't really agree on the Piggies point, but never mind.
  • The meaning in the sentence discussing "If Not for You" is jumbled up. The discarded Dylan take is thought to be the first recording of Harrison on slide (well, there's a glissando or two on "Strawberry Fields"), but that's got nothing to do with the context here.
  • From mention of "Ben Gerson of Rolling Stone described", there's four or so consecutive sentences containing "described".
  • I disagree about the inclusion of that October 1969 quote. It's confusing. Yes, he'd been talking about doing a solo album of songs to get shot of the backlog, since Jan '69; but in the context that All Things Must Pass was made, post Beatles break-up, the album took on a completely different identity from that of a project that might've sat comfortably beside the band's continued existence. He's got Spector in on the job, his mum was dying – there was way more invested from May 1970 onwards.
  • Even if it has been shunted off to an endnote, I'm still confused about why you're so generous with details regarding the My Sweet Lord/He's So Fine suit when subjects like Dark Horse Records, Splinter, Harrison's '70s projects with Shankar, production for Apple acts get barely a mention.
  • I'd say, delete the whole note. Again, so many relevant points don't even rate a mention in the article, and here you are providing excessive detail on this issue. JG66 (talk) 15:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tom Scott was assistant producer on 33 & 1/3, or more correctly provided "production assistance".
  • I'd cut down considerably the discussion of problems between Harrison and Lennon. Again, I'm thinking of what doesn't get included in the article when detail is being lavished elsewhere.
  • Definitely delete "The omission upset Lennon; Harrison regretted this and left a telephone message for Lennon, but Lennon did not return the call and they did not speak again.", I suggest. JG66 (talk) 15:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Confused also not to see mention of Harrison's guest appearances with Dylan in 1987 when Birmingham Heart Beat gets an extended mention, and especially when there's all that stuff in the endnote about the 1992 Jeff Porcaro concert – I mean, what's that about?
  • The LA gig with Taj, Dylan and John Fogerty, yes, but also a couple of appearances Harrison made during Dylan's 1987 European tour with Tm Petty & The Heartbreakers. With the Porcaro benefit, I'm saying delete everything in the endnote. Once again: focus. Two sentences are currently in that note, describing the benefit, yet you give no mention at all in the article of Harrison's '74 tour musicians. (Come on ...) In the George Harrison story, though, it's still a shock to see this 1992 gig even get a mention when his more-celebrated TV appearances with Gary Wright (1971) and Paul Simon (1976) don't. So that's probably why the walk-ons with Dylan feel like they belong too. (You know he made guest appearances with Clapton, Elton and Deep Purple also?) JG66 (talk) 15:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The list of interviewees in the Scorsese documentary is typical, really, of what I mean by the not-enough non-Beatle-George feel of the article (the unfortunate fact of a WP Beatles focus, I guess). Ono's contribution in the film is minimal; Starr, Clapton and Keltner add far more in the way of insight than McCartney. But most of all, the interviewees who really add something personal about Harrison – the man, regardless of Beatledom – are Olivia and Dhani, Klaus Voormann (especially Klaus) and Terry Gilliam, I suggest. I find the wording in that sentence reflective of the lack of engagement in this article: anything real like family and friends is shunted off into "others" category, while anything Beatle is given pride of place. That list should read something like: Olivia and Dhani Harrison, Voormann, Gilliam, Starr, Clapton, McCartney, Keltner ... (Astrid Kirchherr perhaps also, certainly more worthy of inclusion than Ono.)
Yep. You're spot-on with this point, JG. I should have thought twice before listing the interviewees like that. Thanks for your input! I think if we can get as many specific recommendations from you as possible this FAC should go over without a hitch. You have a valuable perspective to offer to the article, and I apologize if any of my comments during the last FAC made it seem otherwise. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 22:39, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Extended discussion of JG66's comments
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All those points are pretty cosmetic though, compared to the real problems in the article. It may be a Good Article currently on the project's quality scale, but it's certainly not a good article on George Harrison – in that it's not a good overview of the subject. So much is missing, for a start. A section discussing his production work for others, on Apple Records and Dark Horse, and his 1970s session work. Right now, some of his '70s session work is mentioned in an endnote or two – part of that "apology of an article" issue, as I put it above. He was the most active of all the Beatles on Apple projects, and he committed to them – he didn't just do a Paul, and roll up with a song and say "Play it like this". Straight after finishing All Things Must Pass, he's repaying favours with session work for the likes of Gary Wright and Bobby Whitlock; then he's producing Ronnie Spector, Badfinger and Ravi Shankar, rather than looking to follow up his own album. The fact is that these projects were as much part of Harrison's career as his own albums; he never stopped wanting to support other artists just because the Beatles split up. This point applies even more with Dark Horse Records, with his dedication to Splinter and Ravi Shankar. The omission of any of this contributes to the article failing to provide any idea of Harrison's development, even generally, through the first half of the 1970s. And the same goes for what little treatment his 1974 tour with Shankar receives. I commented on that in the earlier review; you'll just have to go back and find it. (But in short, how can this notorious/ambitious/ill-starred/woefully underrated(?) event not get a brief discussion here when, in the McCartney and Lennon articles, comparatively trivial live appearances or tours do? Without wanting to sound too dramatic, this 1974 tour utterly defined George Harrison's musical career as much as All Things Must Pass and the Concert for Bangladesh did.)

Same with some idea of his duality between deeply spiritual pursuits and more earthly temptations. He was pretty open in discussing this – his Piscean nature – and it's received a lot of comment from his biographers. Such a major part of the subject's character is certainly not ignored in the equivalent article for Lennon, and I think readers deserve to see this sort of defining feature about Harrison. About the subject of any biographical article, particularly if the article's a GA.

There's more that is missing, I'm sure – but as I said, what's missing is only "for a start". I think the main issues are structural, article-wide, the focus of the entire piece. The overall idea – the "over-arching narrative" perhaps that Malleus mentions. These are only encyclopedic articles, okay, but there's no question that they require some creativity at this level. Someone like George Harrison is incredibly hard to sum up adequately in a few thousand words; there hasn't been a biographer yet who's really nailed it, even with 100,000 words at their disposal. (Not even Simon Leng.) I'm sorry to be so discouraging, but I care about an article delivering what it's supposed to, and I really don't think this one belongs in an FAC forum. I'd be going back to a blank sheet almost, taking a look at the Lennon article, and just thinking of a whole new way into this one, to be honest. JG66 (talk) 16:43, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • 1) Thanks again for your specific comments JG66; I've done my very best to address them. 2) Per: "A section discussing his production work for others, on Apple Records and Dark Horse, and his 1970s session work." Again, this sounds like material for Musical career of George Harrison, maybe not, but the only source that I find that describes Harrison as a "session musician" is Leng (a far from neutral source IMO), and he says: "Harrison was the only ex-Beatle modest or gifted enough to have taken up a second career as a session musician", a dubious claim at best, since a) Macca was clearly the most musically talented of the four, and b) describing Harrison as modest is a bit of a stretch. Furthermore, if we wrote a section detailing Harrison's session work, how would that help us attain "brilliant and engaging prose", as it seems like it would just create another section loaded with list-like details lacking an overarching narrative. Perhaps I am missing something here, but I really don't see how this would help with readability, nor do I consider Harrison a proper "session musician" for having worked on some basic guitar tracks for his friends and clients of Apple. Also, specific session work done for Apple would seem more appropriate at the Apple Records article. 3) Per: "what little treatment his 1974 tour with Shankar receives", IMO, there will never be enough detail about Shankar in the article to satisfy you (he is mentioned about a dozen times). How about starting the article, Musical collaborations of George Harrison and Ravi Shankar? Per: "some idea of his duality between deeply spiritual pursuits and more earthly temptations". You have lost me here, sorry. Are you suggesting that we discuss how many women he cheated on his wives with? Or that despite his conversion to Hinduism, he cheated taxes till the end, and hoarded $150 million dollars? Can you please explain further what you mean by this point? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:58, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I just don't know where to start with a reply to the above. Perhaps you are "missing something here" – yes. Of course, a Musical Career article is needed, but the existence of such an article for McCartney never held you back in the Paul McCartney main article. And you've rather sidestepped discussion of Harrison as a record producer by choosing to focus on whether he was a "session musician" or not. In my comment above, I never said he was a session musician; Jim Keltner, Nicky Hopkins, Klaus Voormann, they're session musicians. I talked about Harrison's session work for others, and about combining that in a section discussing his projects as a producer (more than anything, to ensure that Dark Horse Records at least received some sort of discussion in the article). Your opinion about Leng's book concerns me, but in hindsight explains a lot about the problems with this article. It should be easy to see where Leng's reliable or not, and in most cases, he definitely is. (I'd be wary of other books you use, such as Bill Harry's encyclopaedia and Spitz's Beatles book, both of which are riddled with inaccuracies and/or inconsistency; especially the Spitz book.) And, you say, "describing Harrison as modest is a bit of a stretch" – I mean ... what makes you think that Harrison wasn't modest? Without fail, associates of his, and music writers generally, have pointed out his modesty, his humility. It's the thing that most impressed Ravi Shankar about him; how do you think the Concert for Bangladesh, the Wilburys came together, without that modesty, the fact that all involved knew they could trust Harrison? That doesn't make him perfect by any means, and he was the first to admit that he wasn't perfect. (And in fact, it's that imperfection mixed with the search for the divine that makes Harrison an interesting subject.) But your words there do make me wonder what you're doing championing this article. Also, adding such a section on Harrison's production and session work doesn't in any way distract from the article-wide issue(s) I mentioned. When you say "it seems like it would just create another section loaded with list-like details lacking an overarching narrative" – well, yes, if you want it to, Gabe! (Or, the entire article could be reworked, as suggested, and then, with the addition of a new section such as this, the overview on George Harrison's life would be both more complete and a more impressive read.) I keep finding more things in your reply, bewildering things ... Your choosing to focus on an increased Shankar presence when I mentioned "what little treatment his 1974 tour with Shankar receives". I'm talking about the [beep-beep] TOUR – not seeing a thirteenth mention of Shankar's name. George Harrison's only US tour. The first US tour by a Beatle since their break-up. The tour that launched Dark Horse Records. The tour that crash-landed his solo career. A tour that saw him combining Indian music, jazz, funk and rock – acknowledged by some as a precursor to world music. It's the George Harrison tour, not the association with Ravi Shankar per se, that merits discussion. (Okay?!) Schaffner sets the scene for the build-up and expectations for this tour, with the first Beatlefest event in the US that year; Bob Woffinden's Beatles Apart adds useful insight into how Beatles-obsessed the US still was, whereas the band's mystique had dimmed after 1971 in the UK, where new musical genres (glam, reggae) had been embraced by '74. (Again, compare with the detail afforded Wings' 1972 UK tour in the McCartney article, and the musicians listing for Mac's 1990 tour; same for detail on Rock 'n' Roll Circus in the Lennon article.) And finally there's: "Are you suggesting that we discuss how many women he cheated on his wives with? Or that despite his conversion to Hinduism, he cheated taxes till the end, and hoarded $150 million dollars?" To repeat: I've got to wonder what you're doing championing this article. You seem to have a very shallow grasp of George Harrison, like you've gone sideways from Paul McCartney and looked to apply the same results-results-results template. The Piscean duality marked Harrison's struggle through much of his life, and it was something he became increasingly open about from around 1987 onwards. This is from one of his last interviews: "I'm a Pisces. I am an extreme person. One half is always going down where the other half has just been. I was always extremely up or extremely down, extremely spiritual or extremely drugged. Now there is a bit of maturity. I have brought the two closer to the middle." This duality is reflected most obviously in the 1973 song "Living in the Material World"; he appeared to have reconciled the issue in 2002's "Pisces Fish". Of course it's covered in his biographies, but I can't see that it's worth me going into this point any more here – from my experience with this article, and elsewhere over the last year, it just doesn't do any good trying to get through to you. It seems like this point is news to you. JG66 (talk) 15:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per "Someone like George Harrison is incredibly hard to sum up adequately in a few thousand words; there hasn't been a biographer yet who's really nailed it, even with 100,000 words at their disposal. (Not even Simon Leng.)" That's exactly what I've been saying; in order to do his bio justice in your eyes, we would need to include so much excess detail that the article would never pass FAC anyway. Please remember, Evan and I are just unpaid voluteers doing our best. I am curious though, as above you say "I'm sorry to be so discouraging, but I care about an article delivering what it's supposed to". Well, you've only ever made 32 edits to the Harrison article, and you havn't improved it since 1 February. Why not help us improve the article, instead of making us read your mind and goose-chase datums from any number of dozens of books. If you think the article needs a "Session work" sub-section, then why not draft one in your sandbox? Lastly, per your above comment: "But, with all due respect to SandyGeorgia, why weren't/aren't you nominees standing up to that oppose by citing the McCartney article as an example?" Have you ever tried to "stand-up" to SandyGeorgia? Do you know who she is? Her oppose alone can stop an FAC in its tracks, as few delegates would pass an article she has opposed, regardless of the efforts the noms make to resolve her concerns. FWIW, I tend to agree with you in principle, I just wish you would help Evan and I with a draft of a "Session work" section, and perhaps a few edits to address your concern: "there's not enough of a sense of Harrison the non-Beatle". I will keep working on it of course, as will Evan, and this article will eventually pass FAC, with or without your help, but I think I speak for Evan when I say that we would much rather work with you. Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to make comments, especially regarding specifc concerns that we can address. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:58, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • As alluded to above, I don't find communication with you an easy task. It's a two-lane street, so logically I contribute equally to the problem. In the past, and now here again, you've chosen to focus on "excess detail" when in fact I've been trying to draw your attention to scope and the foundation for the narrative article-wide. I acknowledge that the situation's not as clear-cut as that: sometimes I've been saying "This needs to be included". Detail. But I know in the last FAC I kept trying to bring it to your attention that details I was offering in that forum weren't necessarily for immediate inclusion in the article; they were intended to give some thought to scope for the relevant section. (As mentioned at the start of that FAC, I thought the nomination was very premature. In my mind, the FAC ended up taking the form of a belated workshop of ideas, to some extent.) But your reply here just confuses me more. Why should I be expected to actively work on an article just because I've got some strong opinions on the article? I've been asked to contribute comments, and I've done so. At the risk of sounding arrogant – but I'll risk it – I wouldn't be so opinionated if I didn't consider my opinions well informed. I'm just not interested in working on a bio/overview article that's not close to delivering, when there's Harrison song articles I can create, say, or existing Harrison articles to improve, that might immediately deliver a piece that fulfils the reason for the article's existence. You want to get an FAC over the line, I want to see every article deliver what it should – it doesn't seem to me like the two paths necessarily align. And I have to laugh at your comment "Have you ever tried to "stand-up" to SandyGeorgia? Do you know who she is?" I dunno ... Keith Richards? I mean no disrespect to SandyGeorgia – because I'm sure she's earned such a formidable reputation for the best reasons, and drawing a line on the length of an article to the total exclusion of some important points wouldn't be one of them, surely. But your reverence here in the hallowed chambers of FAC is symptomatic of the problem with this article, I think: no focus on content that delivers something educational and enlightening to a reader; all eyes on the gold-star prize. JG66 (talk) 15:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gabe, I think JG66 is making some good points on the colour the article needs - I don't think it is as ambitious as you're worried about - I think 1-3 sentences in each section can take it into much better territory. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:55, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I suspect it's a problem of communication rather than necessarily of disagreement. We had a discussion over mention of Harrison's work with Tom Scott last time, for example, which I suspected was excess detail, but the way you have phrased it more recently, e.g. in your 28 March comments, where you stated generally that we should include discussion of his session work, among other things -- that is actionable and addressable. If you have particular details in mind that we could include, that's great too, but a general statement that the "foundation isn't there" isn't necessarily helpful. I can be exceptionally thick on occasion, so it doesn't hurt to beat me over the head if there's something I don't seem to be getting, but if you can generally keep comments to a "add x, and for example y is a good anecdote that illustrates x" formula, I think it will be better for everyone and for the article. Thanks again for your comments, and thank you, Gabe, for handling all the comments here since I last showed up! Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 10:53, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
well, I'm glad to see these receiving some sort of coverage. I'm confused why you've not discussed Harrison as a music producer primarily in that new section; also by the choice of albums on which made guest appearances, eg no mention of Dylan's New Morning and Under a Red Sky albums. I don't mind stepping in to help here now that the section's at least under way, but I can't do anything for at least a week. The 74 tour discussion is surprising. I would be very wary of trusting Inglis' book - his source for negative critical reaction is Fong Torres' Rolling Stone piece (which can't possibly serve as a reliable ref because it was written after show 10 of 45). The tour was not a commercial failure. I'm sure Leng argues against it being a critical failure - he questions the whole Rolling Stone beat up, doesn't he? The only book I have here with me now is Doggett's - no way does he support either of the statements either. Again, I don't mind stepping in here, but I can't do it for a while. JG66 (talk) 18:22, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've added some detail about Harrison playing guitar on Dylan's New Morning and Under the Red Sky albums, and a bit on Harrison's producing Splinter, Preston, and Troy. Inglis is the most scholarly source currently available on Harrison, and though far from perfect, few if any sources are. Leng certainly isn't beyond bias. FTR, Fong Torres' Rolling Stone piece was printed in RS 176 on 19 December 1974, the day before the Dark Horse tour concluded. So, how do you know that he wrote it immediately following the 10th show, on 18 November? Further, if you think Fong Torres was the only critic who lambasted the Dark Horse tour, then read Greene, 2006, pp. 213–220. Numerous writers at the time, criticised the tour throughout, with Harrison defending his position against journalists until the very end at Madison Square Garden (Greene, 2006, p.218). Also, Doggett does indeed support that most fans were quite disappointed by Shankar's presence (he demanded silence and no smoking during his sets), and by Harrison's voice, and his inappropriate reworking of Beatles lyrics. Greene and Huntley also support these assertions. To clarify, no one is asking you to "step-in" here. If you have an improvement/s you would like to make then of course, by all means feel free; this is a collaborative project and neither Evan nor myself own the article. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 20:52, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
ever the politician, you rather forgot to mention above that you'd reworded the sentence with Doggett's ref. When I last wrote, I was objecting to Doggett (and Leng) being used to support your statement that the tour was "a critical and commercial failure". That's quite a different claim from the innocuous wording you used above. Once again, your basic skills of comprehension are found wanting: who said anything about Fong Torres being the only critic who savaged the tour? I was objecting to Inglis's viewpoint being trustworthy, because Inglis supports his tour-wide statement with the Fong Torres article. I never said it was Fong Torres and only Fong Torres. From memory, Greene is simply repeating the individual early-tour quotes that Fong Torres does, with a New York one added perhaps (I don't have my books around me, so I'd need to check that). Yes, reviews were negative again on the East Coast. You can always tell which authors have pretty much gone with the Rolling Stone version, without looking elsewhere, by the details they give on the set list. Anyone referring to Shankar opening the concert is going with Fong Torres' description of the opening show in Vancouver; the set was immediately rearranged so that Shankar's (now only) segment sat in the middle of the show, to both improve the pacing of the show and reduce the length of the programme; Harrison dropped Lord Loves the One and Who Can See It after Vancouver - another giveaway as far as being able to spot the "parroters", who may refer to these songs as being performed "during" or even "throughout" the tour. It was the one show only. The issue of Rolling Stone was indeed dated 19 December but it must've come out two weeks before, perhaps more, because in a Michael Gross piece for Circus Raves, Gross and Tom Scott discuss the article and it's straight after one of the Toronto shows (from memory, 6 Dec). If you look at RS dates for All Things Must Pass and Dark Horse album reviews, they're both January or February even though albums were released in last month or two of preceding year, yet the NME reviews for each appear in issues dated December. (I've been meaning to investigate this difference in pub date vs given date, for an article I've been working on for ages, on the Harrison-Shankar tour. Figure this has to have been an RS ref/dating quirk at the time.) The Gross/Circus Raves piece is on Rock's Back Pages but it's (expensive) subscription only. I've got that show 10 of 45 idea from the Gross article, from his description of when Fong Torres was covering the tour for RS (only the West Coast gigs). From everything I've seen about this tour, Leng is actually spot on about this "given"/RS view being both widespread and inaccurate. It's clear, to me at least, that no major critics covered the middle two-thirds of the tour, when reviews were very good - and authors increasingly take the troubled start and the exhausted end (which was all tied up with the Beatles Agreement pressures) and present the bookends as a whole. The reason I really took exception to the way you'd used Doggett as your ref is because, having finally got around to buying his book, but been wary, I was really impressed to see how he'd discussed the tour: uniformly harsh reviews early on, no question, but tying in the Beatles nostalgia issue (and George's refusal to play ball) also. Gotta rush off; as mentioned previously I'm winging this without my books right now. JG66 (talk) 05:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh - no way were Dark Horse album and single first releases by a former Beatle not to make UK top 30. Ringo's Beaucoups of Blues album didn't, nor did his Snookeroo single, the latter released a week or two before Dark Horse in the UK. McCartney's Back Seat of My Car was another. As mentioned in the previous FAC, I still think you've confused the situation, because Dark Horse was second single from the album in the UK, after Ding Dong, which did chart (though not inside top 30). JG66 (talk) 09:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. JG66, while Evan and I greatly appreciate your comments, your walls of text are quite difficult to follow and reply to. I would really appreciate it if you made some attempt at brevity, and perhaps you could also consider using bullet points.
  1. And those walls of text are difficult to write also. I've tried to write short comments at times, but you misunderstand even the briefest of statements, which then leads to me have to write more in the way of explanation. JG66 (talk) 03:18, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Please reel back the rhetoric and insults, many of which are bordering on personal attacks. E.g. "it just doesn't do any good trying to get through to you", "ever the politician", and "your basic skills of comprehension are found wanting". There is absolutely no need to be hostile and abusive, and your comments should pertain to content, not editors.
  1. Well, that's all well and good, GabeMc, but communication being a two-way thing, perhaps it's something you're giving out. Ive acknowledged above that I must have a hand in this problem. Impatience and frustration sets in when I've tried to explain a point, not just here but in the previous FAC, and you often pick up half of it and ignore the rest. Not only that - and this is is related to the above point about brevity - I'm amazed at the level of detailed discussion and debate needed here, quite frankly, regarding some very basic issues to do with the life and music of George Harrison. Going back to January, I've found that you seem to be unaware of a number of these issues, and yet you apparently feel qualified (in the loose sense of the word) to act as editorial control on this article at FAC. While I certainly don't set out to be abusive, you'll have to understand if I'm less than full of respect for your work. I only work on George Harrison articles, and I've never seen you add anything even semi-substantial to a Harrison article. (My apologies if I'm wrong about that, but that's from what I've seen anyway.) I'm tough on myself too: I wouldn't dream of taking an article to FAC unless I was something of an authority on the subject. JG66 (talk) 03:18, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. In my opinion, stuff like the above comment just isn't helpful. It's perfectly fine to acknowledge the difficulty in communication, but it's not okay for the majority of a comment on a page dedicated to the improvement of an article to be regarding your personal impression of another article's work. It's off topic, and things like that should be avoided as much as possible. Keep in mind that your preferred version of the article is not the only good way for it to be written, nor is implementing every last detail of it the only way to meet the Featured Article criteria. While my knowledge of Harrison's career may or may not be as thorough of yours, I do feel qualified to say that the article's coverage is well balanced. If you disagree, that's something worth noting, but let's keep the particulars of the disagreement as the core of the conversation, and not focus on the simple fact that the disagreement exists. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 09:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Per you above comment: "Oh - no way were Dark Horse album and single first releases by a former Beatle not to make UK top 30." According to Roberts, David, ed. (2005). British Hit Singles & Albums (18 ed.). Guinness World Records Limited. ISBN 978-1-904994-00-8, neither the Dark Horse album nor the single charted in the UK, and the single, "Ding Dong, Ding Dong" made #38 (I didn't mention "Ding Dong" in-line, as it was yet another critical failure, but I have now added it as a note). Also according to Roberts, Macca's "Back Seat of My Car" peaked in the UK at #39, so it did indeed chart there. However, you're absolutely correct to assert that Starr was the first ex-Beatle who released something that failed to chart, Greene obviously made a mistake there, but really, all he had to add was "other than Starr", or similar. As I said above, I have yet to find a perfect source completely free from errors, especially regarding the Beatles. I think Harrison attributed the name, "the Beatles" to the movie The Wild One, as did the Anthology film, yet we now know that the movie was banned in the UK at the time, so it's nearly impossible that it inspired the name, despite Harrison's claim. Anyway, I've now copyedited the bit for accuracy, so thanks much for the fact check.
  1. I was querying your wording that they were the first releases by a former Beatle not to make the top thirty - I know Back Seat made number 39. JG66 (talk) 08:33, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Regarding the Dark Horse Tour and reviews: My point is that the negative reviews came-in throughout the tour, and from various sources, not just RS. Greene gives examples from the Los Angeles Herald and the San Fransico Examiner, among others. On 15 December (5 days prior to the tour's conclusion), an East-coast reviewer described the show as "perceptible boredom".(Greene, 2006, p.216) Near the end of the tour, Harrison told a reporter: "There will always be [criticism] ... I didn't force you at gun-point to come and see me. And I don't care if nobody comes to see me".(Greene, 2006, p.217–218) Greene called the tour "the greatest disappointment of [Harrison's] life".(Greene, p.219) As much as Leng attempts to re-write history, the most complementary thing he wrote about the tour is that it was "revolutionary in its presentation of Indian Music".(Leng, 2006, p.177) GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Yes, but Greene is merely quoting from Fong Torres with those LA and San Fran reviewer comments. Alan Clayson, Inglis and Huntley all take that RS article as the basis for their descriptions of tour wide critical reaction, and add some East Coast reviewer comments. For the purposes of this article, at least with the wording as it currently stands, any discussion here is redundant, I suggest. (As mentioned, it was the original wording you had that was unsupported by the refs you chose.) I really think you're wrong about Leng, and certainly wrong to treat Inglis as a reliable source for anything factual about Harrison; I view his claims like those of an Allmusic reviewer - he just hasn't done the research, it's obvious. For the record - because I think others here might need to know if they don't have the book - Leng is not attempting to rewrite history, I believe, and he's the only author that's researched the 74 tour to any degree, which includes accessing a wide range of reviews and interviewing musicians such as Andy Newmark and Jim Horn. A sample of reviews appears across five pages of the book (all this from memory, I don't have the books here right now) and Leng makes the point that the majority of reviews were positive. From the sample he provides, that's definitely so. Leng has way more positive things to say about the tour than you've stated, GabeMc. He discusses a Fort Worth show in some detail and is full of praise for the performance; following Long Beach, Leng states, the tour was very well received. (I can remember all that off the top of my head). New York and East Coast generally, the harsh reviews start again. Leng's the only one to investigate the reception afforded the whole tour, and I find it hard to believe he'd be falsifying the results. And he's dead right that other authors have simply gone with the predominantly RS version of events. To all our relief no doubt, I don't think the matter needs to be discussed further here, because of the current wording. But I feel the need to point out that Leng's contribution to understanding George Harrison is vital, in my opinion, and definitely shouldn't be overlooked in favour of Inglis, or Greene or Huntley. PS That Inglis-attributed sentence about Shankar opening the concerts is incorrect and needs changing; scholarly or not, Inglis just hasn't done the background. (I could give you a list ...) JG66 (talk) 05:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. I'm going to have to go double-check Leng's comments on the tour reception. I'll probably have something to say here once I've done that (probably later today). Thanks. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 09:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. JG66, are you suggesting that Harrison's friends Andy Newmark and Jim Horn are WP:RSs for the critical reaction to the DH tour? Are you suggesting that Greene, Inglis, Huntley, and Tillery are all unreliable? Is Leng the only reliable source on Harrison IYO? If so, why? Also, you keep blaming all the bad press on the Fong Torres piece, however; Greene uses several sources for his material on the tour (chapter 11), including Mark Ellen from Q, Larry Sloman from RS (30 January 1975), Jim Miller from RS (13 February 1975), as well as 8-10 interviews with Harrison conducted during the tour or shortly after. So, you really can't blame all the bad reviews on Fong Torres, can you? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 20:27, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gabe, I don't keep blaming all the bad press on Fong Torres's piece; I'm saying that those authors base their accounts of the tour primarily on his RS piece (covering the West Coast), spiced with some equally stinging comments from reviewers of the East Coast shows. The middle portion of the tour, close to two-thirds in other words, wasn't reported on by Rolling Stone (or any major music publication, as far as I know), yet critical consensus tour-wide, according to these same authors, was almost entirely negative. Leng's research shows us that the tour received very favourable reviews during that larger, central portion; I was surprised also to see some positive reviews of a West Coast show and a New York one included in Leng's book. (Again, I'm without books, so I'm going from memory right now.) JG66 (talk) 11:27, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Larry Sloman wrote the piece for RS on the New York shows; Jim Miller wrote the RS album review for Dark Horse, and focused a great deal on the tour and Miller's opinion of Harrison. These two pieces combine with Fong Torres' to provide the RS/"given" view on the 74 tour that Leng refers to, a view that makes no mention of this apparently warmly received middle two-thirds of the tour, because it went undetected on the RS radar. Almost every writer - Mark Ellen at Q no doubt, I don't know - has gone with this overwhelmingly negative picture of the tour. But I've yet to find that they've done any active research. Leng has done the research, he makes a claim that challenges this given view, and he provides pages of reviews to support his position. I'll buy that anytime, if it can be seen that an author's done the research. JG66 (talk) 11:27, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Of the other authors you mention - yes, I do believe Leng should be trusted over them. Ingles states at the front of his book that it is not a George Harrison biography; it's commentary and analysis of Harrison's music, and pretty much to the exclusion of projects outside of a defined solo career unfortunately. Inglis at least provides a source for his statement on tour-wide critical reception in 1974; the problem is it's the Fong Torres article on Harrison's W Coast gigs, reproduced in RS Press Harrison tribute book. Huntley: not a reference in sight in his book. And rather than him being a writer who appears to research his subject thoroughly, I'm afraid I've found a lot of examples where Huntley's lifted text from others' work, almost verbatim, and presented it as his own work. (Eg, compare Huntley's discussion of the My Sweet Lord court case with the article by Joseph Self which appears under External Links in the My Sweet Lord article.) JG66 (talk) 11:27, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I love Greene's book, and - like Leng's and to some extent Clayson's - it provides a really important window on George Harrison, IMO. But I don't consider it factually reliable. He separates some of Harrison's comments to Fong Torres, for instance, and states that Harrison "told an interviewer later in the tour" - in fact, all the comments came from the same interview in November. (Again, this off the top of my head, I hasten to add.) Greene, and Tillery too, has indulged in a fair bit of creative non-fiction writing, I think it's fair to say. Greene invents conversations that took place between Harrison and Hare Krishna friends, I'm sure of it (for instance, Harrison's side of a conversation appears to be straight out of the text in I Me Mine in some cases). Tillery gets equally creative with his description of Harrison returning from India in early 1974 and "wondering what to do next", or something similar; same with the description of Harrison wandering around the grounds of Friar Park in a daze after the tour. These points are based on truth to some extent, but they're dramatised, there's no question. Greene especially is one for this style of non-fiction/biography, which one normally finds adopted by authors of more historical-themed texts (I've read biographies of people from the American Civil War era which use this style). In the case of Greene's book, this approach makes for an entertaining read, sort of halfway between a biography and a novel; but much of what I read there I'm reluctant to take on as fact. I'd need to check the relevant chapter, as far as the 74 tour goes, but my feeling about Greene is that he'd be more concerned about the presentation of the overall picture rather than necessarily searching out the facts: he wants to build up a scene dramatically. JG66 (talk) 11:27, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've gone on and on here and I promised myself I wouldn't ... Plenty more to say on the subject as always, but it's best left for other talk pages. The main thing is, as mentioned last time, the current wording in the article is pretty correct, I believe. JG66 (talk) 11:27, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Noting recent comments by Casliber and Spike Wilbury, I do agree that the article's looking much better overall, by the way. I've got a couple more issues to comment on, specific points, but that's going to have to wait a day or two, I'm afraid. JG66 (talk) 05:46, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I was pretty sure I was remembering correctly, Leng quotes a number of reviews from across the nation. The most favorable of those seems to be John Wenderborn, commenting on the Vancouver show. At least in the bits Leng quotes, he doesn't even mention the vocal problems. Most of the reviews seem to mention either Harrison's singing issues, audience apathy, or both, though not necessarily as the defining elements of the tour. As has been mentioned, Ben Fong-Torres of Rolling Stone says, for example, "He performs 'My Sweet Lord' and out of the silence comes the silence—a still and seated audience with only the front section clapping along." (Interestingly, Lorraine Haacke notes that the Fort Worth audience was "ecstatic" during this encore.) D. P. bond of the Post-Intelligencer says, "Harrison's voice was at best raspy," but goes on to say that, "Harrison's concert tour will be a successful, well-remembered entry in rock history." Jacoba Atlas for Melody Maker called one of the LA shows "a complete delight," and Walter Dawson says that the Memphis concert showed "no evidence of raggedness."
It goes on like that for the next two or three pages. I'm going to go check the article now and see if we might be able to place a bit more emphasis on the positive reaction. While most critical reviews were negative, there seem to be a vocal minority of positive ones. I'll see what I can do. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 00:16, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And the solution I decided on was to add a quote from one of the reviewers who liked the show. I feel this helps counterbalance the overall account, which seemed primarily focused on the negative (that was at least partially my fault). If anyone thinks this made the section unwieldy or worse overall, feel free to overrule me. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 00:32, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Evan, FWIW, per your above comments: "As I was pretty sure I was remembering correctly, Leng quotes a number of reviews from across the nation. The most favorable of those seems to be John Wenderborn, commenting on the Vancouver show". The title of Wenderborn piece is "Opening Concert by ex-Beatle Harrison left many Listeners Grumbling".(Leng, p.332) Also, where are Leng's notes? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:43, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oops! By Wenderborn, I meant Larry Fleischmann (Wenderborn and Fleischman are each the first review quoted on two sequential left-hand pages; I must have turned the page and not noticed before I checked the name). It does seem to me as though Leng may be selectively choosing positive reviews in order to "stack the deck," as it were, and I do wonder what was between the ellipses in many of these. As I said, if my addition unduly weighs anything down, feel free to undo it. Not sure what you mean by "Leng's notes." Are you asking for a page number? 160-165, if so. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 01:02, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Never mind, I guess he attributes the reviews in-line, so he doesn't need to add them to his bibliography. It is worth noting; however, that while he includes 20+ excerpts of reviews, a 45-date tour must have produced 10 to 20 times that amount of write-ups. At a conservative guess of 5 to 10 reviews per show, Leng's elided review samples would represent only about 5-10% of the conservatively estimated available reviews. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:20, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Additional comments
[edit]

I've skimmed through the article again, and while it's good to finally see some extended discussion given to Harrison's 1974 tour and his production and session work, the article does feel like it gets bogged down at times. I'd put that down to the lack overarching narrative discussed above; on the other hand, I agree with Spike Wilbury that comparisons with McCartney and Lennon articles are now unnecessary, because now this one actually connects with the subject, which I certainly didn't think was the case until recent additions were made.

I thought it was interesting, Evan, your point about you having been overly negative in the text re the 1974 tour. To me, going back months, this article had quite a negative undercurrent towards its subject - I'm not sure if that's quite the right way to phrase it ... To put it as clearly as possible: I got the impression that neither of you warmed towards Harrison in any way or rated him at all as an artist. Perhaps that's far from the truth, but I guess I'm thinking of recent comments about it being "a bit of a stretch" to describe Harrison as a modest person, that all he did when making guest appearances on others' recordings was provide "some basic guitar tracks". Other points of discussion, in the previous FAC, had brought this home. Of course, a healthy sense of impartiality is a good thing, but the article reflected this attitude, and quite obviously. I was pleased to read below Spike W querying a mention of "flashy" guitar playing equalling "technically difficult", as you had it previously in the article. Most guitarists would agree, I think, that it's actually more difficult to play something simple but effective (as per Petty's quote under Guitar work) than to go crazy on the fretboard. But the implication was there that Harrison somehow wasn't up to it. (Was the "technically difficult" bit in your original source ...?) I don't want to dwell on the issue; it's just that, to me, this negativity (perceived or otherwise) was a major factor in the lack of engagement and lack of "Harrison the man"/non-Beatle George focus in the article previously. Which is probably why I repeatedly drew comparisons with the other ex-Beatle articles. I think the article is now closer to delivering a more rounded and educational overview on Harrison with the latest changes. Much of this is down to an apparently more generous attitude towards the subject.

A number of things I picked up during a quick read through, some of which address remnants of that same issue.

  • I'm sure the lead-in is still a work in progress, but the mention that "By the end of their career" Harrison introduced Indian instrumentation to the Beatles' sound seems both repetitious and not entirely accurate in that context.
  • I realise that the associated acts field went through a rethink per guidelines, but if Badfinger's included, shouldn't Splinter be also? He certainly "joined the band" while producing them, just as he did with Badfinger.
  • "prolific session musician" in the lead-in (kind of what I mean by a "more generous attitude"!). Aside from the terminology, "session musician", seems like Badfinger should be included here?
  • Early years: It is a nice detail about Louise Harrison's loud voice startling visitors, but excess perhaps? I feel cruel for raising it. A more George-centric point might be a point made by Mojo writer John Harris that out off all Beatle parents, Louise H was the only one who championed her son's and the other Beatles' talents. The quote's somewhere in the Deep Blue (song) article, or it was last time I looked. See what you think, I'm certainly not pushing either way.
  • I think it makes the point that his mother was musicaly inclined, which is quite different then merely being supportive of George's music, which is already well-established previously in the paragraph by the Boyd quote. Also, per your comment: "Louise H was the only one who championed her son's ... talents", well, George's father bought him the Egmond, and his father's friend taught George his first chords, so while generally more practical then George's mother, I wouldn't say he was never supportive of George's talents and/or aspirations. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:39, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see what you mean. I didn't mean to suggest that Harry H didn't support Harrison also, just that out of all the Bealtes, Harrison was the only one who had a parent (or two) who was fully supportive of the band's success. Like I said, not pushing for any change on this. JG66 (talk) 00:20, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A thorough copy edit will cover this sort of thing, of course: My Sweet Lord is linked twice within a few paragraphs. Elsewhere, authors are "introduced" (ie description and first name) at subsequent mentions rather than the first one. Ian Inglis is only introduced under Legacy, I think, yet we hear from under All things must pass, if not before. Womack also. And what's the deal with those Oxford commas? Plenty of instances without, plenty with. Would love to see them gone - utterly redundant. (Is a comma really needed in "'If I Needed Someone', and 'Think for Yourself'"?)
  • I've fixed the "MSL" linking, and properly introduced Inglis and Womack on their first mentions, I'll scan the article for similar issues. As far as the Oxford comma, 1) Evan is the one who sort of decided this for the article, so I really don't feel that I should be required to defend his actions, 2) I think this type of choice is typically left-up to the noming editors, and it is not an actionable objection per se. Having said that, I really don't care either way, I just want it made consistent, and I'm more than a little tired of these pointless minutiae-based arguments. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:56, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, the Oxford comma was essentially my decision. We did form a consensus on Oxford spelling at the talk page, but serial commas aren't really a part of Oxford spelling per se. If others think they should be gotten rid of, I'm fine with it, but I don't see what that has to do with the Featured Article criteria. Losing them doesn't improve the prose in any way. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 01:06, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Malleus suggested that we remove the Oxford commas so I have attempted to do just that, but I'm sure I've missed a few and/or removed some that I shouldn't have. Commas are obviously not my strong suit. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 05:52, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Solo career: Regardless of my opinion about Inglis's book, his presence in the article is a bit overbearing. He comments on two key songs on All Things; he's again the only contemporary reviewer we hear from re Material World, and at length there; he tells us about Harrison's "sermonizing" during the 1974 tour; we hear from him again about both Ex Texture and "This Guitar". I'll come up with suggestions to vary later examples. Under All Things, is it possible to get a Leng quote to cover discussion of Isn't It a Pity, instead of having Inglis's view on both songs?
  • Concert for Bangladesh: Relevant to suggestions below about cutting down on amount of text afforded Material World and Dark Horse period, I wonder if it might be an idea to include a quote from Rolling Stone online's Harrison bio, the quote says something about Harrison unwittingly being the centre of attention as a result of the Bangladesh aid project. (Sorry to be vague. I'm working on an iPad here, battery's almost gone. You'll find the piece I'm thinking of in the refs section for The Best of George Harrison.) I just think that's a fair observation to add here; also that it would provide something on Harrison's standing at this early point following the Beatles breakup, and avoid a couple of issues that surface in the text covering his next two or three albums.
  • Are you referring to this online bio? If so, can you please be more specific about which quotation you recommend we include? Because I'm not seeing anything there regarding "Harrison unwittingly being the centre of attention as a result of the Bangladesh aid project". GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:29, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apologies - it's in fact Bruce Eder's Allmusic bio on Harrison. The sentence I was thinking of is: "In the most towering irony imaginable, the reluctant Beatle became the beneficiary of most of the lingering good will attached to the group." My thinking is that a comment such as that is both appropriate in the text discussing Bangladesh, and also goes towards avoiding the rather bogged-down situation that Inglis' comments create under Material World. This latter issue involves some other changes, which I'll tie up below. I just wanted to give you the correct bio link right now. As mentioned , it might be an idea to hold off with replies, because I'd much rather present you with something that's complete and actionable. JG66 (talk) 00:20, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Material World: The first sentence, discussing chart placing in Us and Uk for single and album seems a bit wordy. The only thing I can suggest is rewording to state that they both topped the US charts, and maybe take mention of UK chart peaks to an endnote (?)
  • The discussion that follows on this album is one of those examples of an unnecessarily negative picture of the situation, IMO. It does seem as though the unfavorable reviews get a lot of focus. I can see why, because of the point from Inglis about the effect of this criticism on Harrison, so I'm not saying its necessarily for the wrong reasons. But Living in the Material World is much admired by many authors (Leng, Greene, Rodriguez, Tillery, Huntley), and it received some amazing reviews on release. The praise heaped on the album by Stephen Holden of Rolling Stone is the most effusive I've ever seen for a Beatle solo album, if not for any album of that era in an RS review. My suggestion would be to quote from Holden's review, but point out that some other critics were less enthusiastic, and forget Inglis's segue altogether. Apart from the issue of balance, currently a lot of text is dedicated to this album, Dark Horse and the 1974 tour, which seems out of proportion with acclaimed works such as All Things and Bangladesh. (Dont you think?) Also worth pointing out that other highly regarded albums such as George Harrison, Cloud Nine and Brainwashed receive no discussion at all regarding critical response; Thirty Three gets a brief line on this issue, no more. I was all for showing some sort of development in Harrison's career through this decade, I know, but the attention afforded this 1973-75 period just can't be replicated for the other releases, I imagine. JG66 (talk) 01:06, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've made an edit that, I think, tightens-up and balances this section nicely. 1973–1979 is by far the most prolific 6 years of Harrison's solo career, and arguably the most notable after ATMP and Bangladesh; therefore, that it seems slightly more detailed then other, less notable sections is I think quite fine. Having said that, I've added some minor, but important details regarding George Harrison, Cloud Nine and Brainwashed, which I believe will go a long way towards improving the article's overarching narrative while respecting brevity. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:12, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't disagree with you at all, I'm just mindful of earlier concerns about article length and a recent comment on that issue from Tim Riley. I worry that more text is being added than is needed perhaps. The discussion on the 74 tour reads very nicely, for instance, but I think the sentence or two that Evan added (from Leng's book) could in fact be removed in the interests of keeping the discussion more concise. As mentioned a couple of times previously, I thought your wording (without that new point from Leng) was absolutely fine: very fair, with the Rodriguez and Leng quotes concluding the discussion. Rather than qualifying the point about critical consensus at the time, if something else is needed it would be mention of this being first US tour by an exBeatle and Harrison's refusal to play ball, I think. If you wouldn't mind bearing with me, I hope to give you some suggestions about cutting down the amount of text needed in this section but still retaining the overall message. Adding that Bangladesh point is the first thing to help achieve this, and I think mention of Harrison's anti-Beatle feelings on the tour might work well with that. For what it's worth, my feeling is that the brief comment on 33 & 1/3 being warmly received is just fine, same for what relatively little there is in the way of reviewers' comments for Harrison's best known release, All Things Must Pass. More soon. JG66 (talk) 02:24, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dark Horse: I think discussion on the album has to follow text on the tour. The harsh reviews the album received, particularly from RS, stemmed from the tour, in part. Those that had no problem with the tour (Melody Maker, Billboard, Circus Raves) reviewed the album very positively. The RS quote you've taken actually makes reference to this chronology. Also, that "complete disaster" phrase from Joshuua Greene, it's actually him paraphrasing Jim Miller's RS review. Just seems odd to see it, I suppose, when Miller's words appear straight afterwards.

Sorry, this has been very rushed. I'll come back with part two tomorrow. Might be best if you let me come back, reword, clarify, tie up points, first before getting into heavy discussion. I'm sure much of it doesn't make sense yet. JG66 (talk) 15:56, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for using bullet points, they are much easier for me to follow. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 02:44, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See what you think of this version of the 1973 to '79 solo work section. Not as short as I'd hoped maybe, but then I did add mention of first US tour by ex-Beatle along with quote from Mikal Gilmore on Dark Horse album. The edit history on that page may have some comments/explanations if youre interested. Also, there's a quote under LITMW that's attributed to Greene in the text but Leng in the citation; I think it is Leng, but might be an idea to have input from Greene instead, to avoid too much coming from Leng? To my way of thinking, the text in this version is now tighter, with some repetition removed. Worth adding perhaps that I had second thoughts about doing this; so I re-read the article from midway through the Beatles section down, and I still got that feeling that the discussion got bogged down from LITMW onwards. As I say, see what you think.

1) JG66, as much as I greatly appreciate your effort, I'm not at all a fan of the "copy-paste from my sandbox" method. 2) FWIW, when you edit like this, you often add and/or move material around so that the following source no longer supports the preceeding assertions in the text. E.g., while you listed Preston, Tom Scott, Willie Weeks, Andy Newmark and Jim Horn as DHT musicians, the supporting source, Inglis pp.48–49, does not mention Weeks or Newmark, so one would need to add Leng, p.167 (as I've now done, but as you can see, this method would require a re-check of all the sourcing). 3) I've added a few of the better bits in your draft, but perhaps you could bullet point the other important things that you think should be added or removed, as you had been doing above. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:50, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
1) Well, a couple of weeks ago, you did ask/suggest I write a subsection on Harrison's extracurricular music projects in my sandbox. Is this so different? Each change in this 1973-79 section would've taken a sentence or two to explain, so I thought it was easier to present it and save time and space here. 2) Yes, I appreciate that. Sorry, yet again: I'm away from my books so I couldn't check the refs. Seemed important to mention Weeks and Newmark; in fact, Keltner only joined the tour halfway through. 3) Will do. Please note the Dark Horse Tour article you've linked to is not the same tour. Bullet-listed points coming soon. JG66 (talk) 04:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Here are some points that I hope might support more of the changes I suggested yesterday for the subsection covering 1973 to 1979 under Solo Work. I think it might be an idea to first read, even skim-read, the article up to the start of this subsection as it currently stands. Perhaps I'm the only one that thinks this (?), but the article really slows down when we come to this '73-74 period. I've only got time right now to cover the 1973 album, so more to follow soon.
  • Looking at the wording right now under Living in the Material World, the big problem, I think, is that final observation from Inglis. Really, it belongs with Inglis's earlier point about Harrison's despondency at some of the less favorable reviews for LITMW - that's what "it coincided with" relates to. Even then, though, I don't think it would work, because more of Inglis's text would be needed to fully deliver the point (text that was in the article briefly, I think, about Harrison having never known anything but critical praise for the Beatles' work and his own). Not only that, but this observation from Inglis gives the discussion of LITMW an unduly negative tone, when in fact the negativity belongs in discussion of Dark Horse and Extra Texture, because those are the projects to which Inglis refers. Another thing is, I think Inglis is simplifying the situation about Harrison's "despondency"; more so than critics sniping at LITMW (mostly in the UK), I suggest it was continued problems with the Bangladesh proceeds and the new "front" against Klein in 1973, along with the failure of his marriage, that really brought Harrison down. I just made a change to that version I came up with, reinstating Inglis's "self-righteous, maudlin, and clumsy in its execution" comment, which I'd deleted previously. As you'll see, I've now deleted the Inglis "It coincided with ... a mood of gloom and cynicism" point - I think that quote creates too many problems. Maybe this new version appeals.
  • Streamlined and way better, yes. I've just corrected that ref for Greene's point in the article. Only thing I'd question is the inclusion of "overly sentimental" – might be best to leave out unless the ref does support that description? JG66 (talk) 09:30, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • As mentioned last time, the quote about LITMW containing many of the strongest compositions of Harrison's career is attributed to Greene in the text, but the ref carries Leng as the source.
  • Talking about Leng, a way to at least touch on the issue that Inglis raises in that quote is to replace the Mikal Gilmore quote about Dark Horse with Leng's description of the 1974 album as "a musical soap opera, cataloguing rock-life antics, marital strife, lost friendships, and self-doubt" (p 159). It doesn't quite have the same tone as Inglis', I know. (And personally I love that quote from Gilmore.) JG66 (talk) 11:42, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 1974 tour. I think there's some text here that's redundant, and I felt I'd finetuned the discussion in the version I'd proposed. The first example of this is "His 45-date Dark Horse Tour, which extended into late December, received mixed reviews", because later on there's: "Despite numerous positive reviews, the consensus reaction to the tour was negative ..." So the mixed reviews point is handled later on, and in a more informative way. I suggest, remove that earlier sentence ("His 45-date Dark Horse Tour ...") and reinstate December in the first sentence of the paragraph. So much on reviews and critical consensus appears later in the para, I really don't think the situation re critical response needs to be outlined upfront. JG66 (talk) 11:57, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The order of musicians I came up with reflected Preston and Scott's roles as featured performers during the shows, but omitted Keltner because he only participated in about half of the tour. I suggest the order should be Preston, Tom Scott, Willie Weeks, Andy Newmark and Jim Horn. Also, link for Scott here rather than later on, in the note under Thirty Three & 1/3. JG66 (talk) 11:57, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The wording in my version also avoided mention of these musicians having "worked on the album", because, with discussion of Dark Horse moved down in the article, no album has been mentioned yet. So that needs to be either per my version or reworded somehow. JG66 (talk) 11:57, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The description of the various issues that critics had with the tour really goes on, I think, and I'd really tried to streamline this. (More than anything, with all this discussion on what critics thought about the tour and his albums during this period, it highlights the fact that little is offered about the projects, musically. Much could be said about Harrison deliberately paring down the ATMP sound for LITMW and working with a small group of musicians unlike in 1970; Dark Horse sees him embracing funk and soul music genres, going for an obvious American sound. I don't suggest you add these details, with article length where it is, but do you see what I mean – the more text is given to critical reaction throughout this section, the more obvious the omissions regarding content become?) With the '74 tour, I definitely think "complaints about the content, structure, and length; the show's duration of two and a half hours was seen as excessive at the time" should go, seeing as three sentences follow this, all detailing critics' objections. (And if the points about structure and 2.5 hour duration get missed out, does it matter?) I hoped that what I came up with might make the overall picture clear enough to readers without affording the negative reaction too much in the way of detail: "Despite numerous positive reviews, the consensus reaction to the tour was negative.[9] Some fans found Shankar's significant presence a bizarre disappointment, and many were affronted by what Inglis described as Harrison's "sermonizing" as well as his reworking of the lyrics to several Beatles songs.[10] His laryngitis-affected vocals also disappointed fans and critics, who began calling the tour "dark hoarse"." JG66 (talk) 11:57, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dark Horse album. Good to see both the Gilmore and the Leng quotes here after all. I'd lose the "remarkably revealing" portion of Leng's, though, because – and I'm sure Leng says this elsewhere – all of Harrison's 1970s albums are remarkably revealing. Also because the preceding Gilmore quote implies this quality in Dark Horse. JG66 (talk) 11:57, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Extra Texture. You must've made some recent cuts here, which is great because previously this discussion was bogged with comment and opinion about the album. Is it okay that Voormann's linked for a second time, after first appearance under All Things Must Pass? JG66 (talk) 11:57, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thirty Three & 1/3. I'd take the note mentioning Scott's production assistance to sit instead at the end of the paragraph, and bring the note discussing The Best of George Harrison forward to sit at end of first sentence. This latter note needs additional text, I think, something like: "Released during the same month, ..." Otherwise, the Best of note seems tagged on, apropos of nothing in the main text. Also because the aside regarding Scott seems more appropriate following comment on the album's content: "With an emphasis on melody and musicianship, and a more subtle subject matter than the pious message of his earlier works ..." JG66 (talk) 11:57, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • George Harrison. Please note the rewording I came up with previously: "The death of his father in May 1978 and the birth of his son in August that year were transformational life events ..." Otherwise, certainly with no month given for release of the album, it appears that his father died in May 1979. JG66 (talk) 11:57, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Two more comments to come, if memory serves me right, about later solo section. JG66 (talk) 12:52, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments Pt II
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  • Somewhere in England. As a further culling of the discussion about Lennon's death and his relationship with Harrison up to that point, I think the sentence beginning "Their estrangement had been marked by ..." could sit in an end note. The change would only be a cosmetic one, I realise, but removing this point from the main text would lessen the feeling that the discussion gets bogged down again. JG66 (talk) 15:46, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Paragraph covering 1985 to early 1987. I know you told Indopug that he should put questions my way about the need for this discussion, but in fact I've never supported it, as far as I can remember. Because of the detail that's there on Birmingham Heart Beat, and especially because of what appeared under 1988–2001 until recently for the 1992 Porcaro benefit – and also because Harrison's walk-on at a 1990 Clapton gig is included – I suggested adding mention of Harrison's 1987 appearances with Bob Dylan. But for no other reason than they're as notable as the Heartbeat, Porcaro and Clapton gigs. On the subject of Harrison's live performances, though, I had also questioned the omission of his guest spot with Gary Wright on The Dick Cavett Show in November 1971 and his performance with Paul Simon on SNL five years later; I've also mentioned that he made guest appearances at concerts by Elton John and Deep Purple, yet they're not mentioned in the article, nor the fact that he joined Clapton on stage in late 1978 at Guildford Civic Hall. (Then there are his Henley Music Mafia knees-ups at various Oxfordshire pubs ...) So I've always been a bit confused about what merits inclusion as far as Harrison's rare live appearances go. It's not clear to readers that Harrison might've played (and did play) at other gigs besides the ones mentioned in these subsections – that's what bothers me actually: it's easy to assume that gigs mentioned in the article right now constitute a definitive list. Anyway, I certainly don't think each and every gig should be mentioned. My first suggestion would be to delete mention of the 1990 Clapton gig under Later life: 1988–2001, because it automatically throws up questions of why guest spots such as Clapton '78 and Elton and Deep Purple (early '80s) are not included. JG66 (talk) 18:17, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • On the other hand, I would add, in an end note under Thirty Three & 1/3 that, amid Harrison's major promotional campaign for that album (the first time he'd ever engaged in that level of promotion), he appeared on Saturday Night Live with Paul Simon in November 1976. That's quite an important event in Harrison's musical story, imo. JG66 (talk) 15:46, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can see that the gap between 1982 and 1987 does need filling, and the Carl Perkins special and Prince's Trust concert should certainly be mentioned; probably Heart Beat too, since Harrison was effectively "special guest" by appearing at the show's finale. I'd include the songs performed at the Perkins special and Prince's Trust, but remove mention of songs and fellow performers at Heart Beat. Along with these two, maybe three, live appearances, the most correct way to fill the gap would be to mention Harrison's increased involvement with film, surely – HandMade, of course, but also his "I Don't Want to Do It" single for Porky's Revenge. I don't think that'll interfere with the separate section on HandMade. JG66 (talk) 15:46, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's still the Dylan '87 gig(s), of course. I'd first reword the start of that sentence "The following year, he appeared at The Prince's Trust concert ..." to introduce Harrison's 1987 comeback after his years away in film: "The following year, marking his public return to music-making, he appeared at The Prince's Trust concert ..." (That'll only work if his time away has been commented on as suggested, obviously.) Then, in an end note, something like: "Harrison also made guest appearances that year at a Palomino Club gig by blues singer Taj Mahal, accompanied by Dylan and John Fogerty, and during two dates on Dylan's UK tour with Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers." – and remove Harrison's recollection of the Taj gig. I think the shows with Dylan in 1987 and the SNL appearance in 1976 are important to include. I'll help with refs if you agree. JG66 (talk) 15:46, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Traveling Wilburys. I've ummed and ahhed about this, but there's a problem here with the para beginning "In 1989 Harrison and Starr appeared in the music video", because the text covering Harrison's 1991–92 concerts through to mention of the Dylan 30th anniversary concert in 1992 doesn't correspond with the subsection heading: The Traveling Wilburys. A simple solution would be to insert a new subheading. I've got a solution that's a little more creative, though; it breaks slightly with the chronological order of events and instead attempts to adhere to a Wilburys theme for these projects through to late 1992:
  • To set up for this, I think you need to avoid leaving the Wilburys era with such finality (which certainly isn't in keeping with Harrison's story, I suggest). I'm talking about that sentence: "The Wilburys never performed live and the group did not record together again following the release of their second album." How about adding/rewording to say something like: "Although the Traveling Wilburys never performed live and the group did not record together again following their second album, Harrison continued to view himself as a Wilbury for the rest of his life." (That's paraphrasing a quote from Petty, the original of which I can dig up.) JG66 (talk) 17:05, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • That, hopefully, flows naturally into discussion of Wilbury-ish projects like the Petty album. The current wording for "I Won't Back Down" has traces of that Beatle focus, imo. I suggest, for the whole para: "Harrison supplied acoustic guitar and backing vocals on Petty's hit song "I Won't Back Down" in 1989, and appeared in the video along with Lynne and Starr. The following year, he played slide guitar on Lynne's first solo album, Armchair Theatre, and on the title track to Dylan's Under the Red Sky. In October 1992 Harrison performed at Dylan's 30th anniversary tribute concert in New York, playing alongside Dylan, Petty and others, including Clapton, Roger McGuinn and Neil Young. The year before this, in December 1991, he undertook his first series of headlining concerts since 1974 when he toured Japan with Clapton. On 6 April 1992, Harrison held a benefit concert for the Natural Law Party at London's Royal Albert Hall, his first and only full-length concert performance in the UK as a solo artist. JG66 (talk) 17:05, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I realise that's pretty bold, but it does at least keep the Wilburys focus intact through (most of) this para. (I don't know if you agree about this point – I just can't see how, logically, the third paragraph can sit under the Wilburys heading otherwise.) Absolutely no problem finding refs for all the above, I hasten to add. Please note that change regarding the Natural Law Party concert: certainly not "his first London performance since the Beatles' 1969 rooftop concert", because he'd played a couple of songs at Wembley in 1987. Also, mention of "Under the Red Sky" could therefore be removed from the Studio collaborations subsection. JG66 (talk) 17:05, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know you're keeping compilation albums out of the main discussion, but I wonder if it might be an idea to include mention of "Cheer Down" in the main text, since Petty co-wrote the words. JG66 (talk) 17:05, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please see Wikipedia:Coatrack. This is yet another of your endless requests for more detail that do not in anyway tie-in with the overarching narrative. The article already says: "Harrison co-wrote songs and music with Dylan, Clapton, Preston, Doris Troy, David Bromberg, Gary Wright, Wood, Jeff Lynne, and Tom Petty, among others.[253]" That's quite enough IMO. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:07, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, the Natural Law Party gig received excellent reviews – I don't want to be adding any excess detail but it might be an idea to add a very brief mention, this being Harrison's only full UK gig. JG66 (talk) 17:05, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Beatles Anthology. I find a similar issue – discussion not corresponding with the subsection heading – in the paragraph beginning "His final television appearance was to promote Chants of India ..." It's not ideal, but my suggestion would be to at least segue from Anthology to this non-Anthology text, something like: "Rather than return to a solo career as McCartney and Starr did following promotion for Anthology in 1996, Harrison collaborated with Ravi Shankar on the latter's Chants of India album. His final television appearance was a VH-1 special to promote the album, taped in May 1997." JG66 (talk) 17:59, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think mention of Harrison overseeing the 30th anniversary edition of All Things Must Pass and his promotional work through to February 2001 might be good to include somewhere. (A sentence no more.) By all accounts (eg Huntley), he threw himself into the task, and it was a very successful campaign. Most importantly, it seems that the various interviews and the electronic press kit were pretty much the last that the outside world heard from Harrison himself. JG66 (talk) 17:59, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looking ahead through the rest of the article, I'm reluctant to get too involved. I think I'll have to apply Spike Wilbury's approach that there's much I would change but ... and leave it at that. I love that there's a substantial section on guitar work now – as always I'd like to see more on Harrison's solo years, especially his slide playing, rather than Beatles era. I'll keep a respectful distance, but I have noticed that some of the text in that section reads more like Songwriting than Guitar work. For example: "Harrison wrote his first published song, "Don't Bother Me" (1963), almost exclusively in Dorian mode" – it does read like a discussion of compositional style, less so one on his guitar playing. I will take a more active look at Studio collaborations, though. Bit disappointed that albums like Raga, In Concert 1972 and Shankar Family & Friends don't get a mention – I really don't believe there was any Western pop musician other than Harrison producing albums of Indian music or any other "world" music in the early 1970s (let alone also releasing them and promoting them). It's okay, don't reply to that(!); I'm just thinking aloud ... JG66 (talk) 17:59, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • JG66, when you write guitar parts you do so in modes, as with Dorian. Modes do not only relate to the vocal melody, which actually follows the guitar part in the song. Anyway, I'm absolutely done addressing your comments. There is nothing left but your own personal opinions and nitpicks. Also, with five supports from five trusted reviewers, I'd say go ahead and oppose (we always knew you would anyway) so that this tedious and dysfunctional relationship can end asap. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:11, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, if you always knew I would be opposing, you knew more than I did. I had every intention of supporting; in this second FAC, I think I've shown that I've been taking on other reviewers' comments and been mindful of the general progress of this forum. If Casliber shares some of the concerns I had in FAC1, for instance, but feels the required "colour" can be achieved by adding "1-3 sentences in each section", I've respected that at least the issue's being addressed at last and maybe that's the most viable option, rather than the overhaul I'd thought was necessary. If Tim Riley's previously strong support becomes merely mild because of article length, I've tried to incorporate that concern in suggestions I have. It is/has been tedious and dysfunctional; I can't think of anything more tedious than having to keep conversing about Rolling Stone's opinion of the 1974 tour when I'd said, and kept repeating, that balance was now okay – no point in continuing the discussion. (But still you'd come back for more.) Or having to point out on three occasions that Harrison's production work for others should be included in that proposed new section, while you constantly referred to his session playing only. And I've not once read you acknowledge your part in all this miscommunication – which I think is very telling. As is your apparent u-turn from stating that Harrison supplied merely "some basic guitar tracks for his friends and clients of Apple" to immediately agreeing with Spike W's statement days later that "He formed real personal relationships with those musicians ... he did a lot more than just clock in and record some tracks" and your deciding that Harrison was "prolific" in this area. And that's only from this particular FAC.
  • I don't care what letters of the alphabet appear in the article's quality rating, and this popularity-contest approach highlights everything I've always been concerned about regarding FACs. It would be so easy to apply those changes I suggested above – it certainly would've taken me a whole lot less time to just jump in and do them myself than having to itemise each and every change here. I don't believe they're nitpicks (obviously); I think the article would benefit in each case. For example, I can't see how heading hierarchy works, logically, when text that is so obviously non-Wilburys related appears under a heading "The Traveling Wilburys". I know this stuff backwards, I can picture a point made on a verso in Clayson or Leng's books or a recto in Greene or I Me Mine; that dedication to this one subject is going to give me plenty to say in a forum such as this, and win me few friends in the process no doubt. But you've got a majority in the house, Senator, so go for it. JG66 (talk) 00:26, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Spike Wilbury

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  • Comment: I've been reading through this and will post comments soon, but in the mean time, can you locate a new link for ref 236? The article is gone and I can't find it on the source web site. I'd like to read the text supporting that sentence. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 03:01, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your time and comment. I don't know how to implement the wayback machine, but I'm sure Evan does. Worst case scenario, we could trim-out that first bit, and start the section with the Wenner quote, though I suspect we could also source the sentence with our printed sources, but my eyes are too tired now ... more tomorrow. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 03:16, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed now. Thanks, Spike! I'm looking forward to the rest of your comments. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 03:25, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • More comments:
  • 1a: It is well-written overall. I could find niggles all over the page, but they are largely subjective (not outright errors) and I expect for everything I would find to change, someone else might find reason to change it back. I might perform a light copy edit on a less visible article, but on an article of this scope and visibility, we ought to aim for stability.
  • 1b: I think the chronological sections covering his life and career are very good. I do not say this lightly, as I have spent extensive time reading the comments of JC66 in particular. I'm not convinced that repeated comparisons to Lennon's and McCartney's articles are entirely useful. Even though Harrison shares a lot with them musically, his article is going to look different because he was a much different kind of person with a different path and a different approach to music. I can't even imagine the challenge of creating a comprehensive Harrison article without having the finished product look like an overstuffed armchair. The rest of the article seems comprehensive, with a one exception:
  • I'm not very satisfied with the "Guitar work" section overall. It seems to most mostly a collection of quotations about his playing, but we don't get any real sense of what kind of guitar player Harrison was from a guitarist's perspective. This is a section a real musician will browse to, and he'll leave not knowing much. The article you cite earlier from Acoustic Guitar has some basic information about his technique and use of voicings; that is rudimentary information that should be included in this section.
  • Thanks for your comments, I'm working on it. FWIW, I am a "real musician" and a guitarist of almost 30 years, so I hear you on the content issue. I try to avoid too much jargon-esque language, but I'll do my best to flesh-out his playing in a way more pleasing to musicians. Great comment, thanks. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:39, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've made some improvements to the Guitar work section that I hope will resolve your concerns. If not, please let me know what I've missed. Cheers! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 02:16, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1c: Overall the research looks thorough and well-done. I have the Leng book and did some random checks for accuracy of sourcing. I didn't find any issues there. There are a couple instances where I feel that we could do a better job interpreting the source:
  • In which sources are Harrison's contributions to other projects referred to as "Session work"? In the business, session musicians are more "hired guns"; someone needs a ripping guitar solo, or their touring guitarist sucks, so they hire a highly technical guy to come in and lay down tracks. It's strictly a professional arrangement. I think this term doesn't do justice to Harrison's real contributions to the works you mention in that section. He formed real personal relationships with those musicians and he did a lot more than just clock in and record some tracks.
  • I'm not sure about the sentence "Harrison's guitar work with the Beatles typified the more subdued lead guitar style of the early 1960s, rejecting the technically difficult and flashy playing that had gained popularity by the end of the decade" (Guitar Work), especially the phrase "technically difficult". The source does say that Harrison eschewed "flashy" playing, but, if anything, the source praises his ability to fit difficult voicings and techniques into Beatles tunes. Harrison was shown to be quite a proficient player and "technically difficult" should not be considered synonymous with "fast".
  • I'm not sure what is meant by "incorporating the blues guitar style of Clapton and Indian gamakas". It's clear what he took from Clapton (blues guitar style) but what did he take from gamakas?
  • The source only says that he used them, it does not describe what they are, though from what I can gather, they are akin to an interval on a guitar or piano, only with some special character to it which sets it apart, perhaps not unlike a micro-leitmotif. Do you think we should trim the bit out, or introduce a source that explains what an Indian gamaka is? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:39, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1d: The article appears neutral; I didn't not notice any obvious POV.
  • 1e: This is a highly visible article so a lot of editing is to be expected, but I don't see any edit warring that would affect stability.
  • 2a: The lead is rather short considering the breadth of the article. The first paragraph mostly covers his songwriting, while the second paragraph mentions a few key activities. I think the lead could be expanded by at least two decent-sized paragraphs to mention his musicianship, major influences, professional relationships aside from Shankar, and major side projects (Wilburys, etc).
  • 2b: The article is structured well considering the subject. It's been a while since I've really looked at other FA's for guitarists, but this should be a useful structural analog.
  • 2c: Citations and references look good.
  • 3: I checked the media included in the article and didn't notice any licensing issues.
  • 4: I was glad to see that SandyGeorgia's comments from the previous nomination were taken on board regarding the length. I do feel that there is a good comprehensive overview here and that additional detail should be relegated to side articles.

I really like seeing this article here, in this condition. Thank you sincerely for putting so much hard work into it. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 17:11, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tim riley

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Mild support. The article is very long, and goes into more detail (brands of guitar?) than is ideal in an encyclopaedia article. But the prose is readable and, Heaven knows, nobody could fault the article on grounds of comprehensiveness. If it were two thirds of its present length I'd be more enthusiatic in my support, but I think it meets the FA criteria in its way. Tim riley (talk) 21:24, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Media check

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All ok (most images and samples were already checked and discussed during the last FA-nom), just one minor question:

Ah, well, no particular reason. I've only ever uploaded two images to Wikipedia, and I'm not particularly good with figuring out licensing and stuff. That was a mistake on my part. Take a look now; I think I fixed it. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 00:04, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Just looked odd to downgrade the license version, no big issue. GermanJoe (talk) 06:54, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Joe! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 07:03, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Malleus Fatuorum

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I was rather critical of the fragmentary prose when I was first asked to look at this article, but after GabeMc asked me to take another look at it today I can see that it's been greatly improved. Like Tim riley I think it's a little on the long side, but I am now leaning towards support. I need to spend a day or so reading through the whole thing again though. Malleus Fatuorum 22:00, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Malleus! Your further input will, of course, be greatly appreciated. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 01:22, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can see that a great deal of good work has been done since I last looked at this article, and I'm still leaning towards support, but I have a few reservations about the necessity for some of the detail, For instance, "Soon after, his mother bought him a cheap acoustic guitar that he almost immediately broke. He then hid the guitar in a cupboard, where it remained until his brother Peter fixed it for his own use in the wake of the UK skiffle craze." I'm struggling to see the relevance or significance of that.
  • From the Early years: 1943-57 section: "Harrison developed a dry sense of humour as a youth, influenced by the surreal comedy of The Goon Show." That seems completely out of place and out of context. Would it be better somewhere in the Family, friends and interests section?
  • The early solo work section is written almost entirely in the past tense? Why? Does Wonderwall Music not still blend Indian and Western sounds for instance, or not still contain "Dream Scene"?
  • "... Harrison organized a charity event, the Concert for Bangladesh, on 1 August 1971". That looks like he did the organizing on 1 August 1971, whereas what I think is meant is that the concert took place on 1 August 1971.
  • "... a guitar that featured strings tuned in octaves which produced distinct overtones". It's not at all clear what that "which" is referring to. The guitar? The strings? The tuning? Why can't any old guitar be tuned in that way in any case?

Support. I'm satisfied now. Malleus Fatuorum 21:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Indopug

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I find that a particular pet-peeve of mine manifests itself several times in the article—sentences that are just long lists of items separated by commas. The problem with this listy style is that it makes for tedious reading. It also discourages the lay reader, because a sentence like 'He combined gospel music tradition with Hindu bhajan in his compositions: "My Sweet Lord", "Give Me Love", and "It Is 'He' (Jai Sri Krishna)" ' can only be appreciated by somebody who has heard those songs.

  • In the lead, I find no less than five such sentences (for eg: "...George Formby, Django Reinhardt, and Big Bill Broonzy. Chet Atkins, Carl Perkins, Chuck Berry, and Ry Cooder...").
  • Later on too, this problem persists, leading to an unnecessarily detailed coverage of an issue that barely needs mention. For eg: the list of songs he performed at the Carl Perkins show and the ELO-organised benefit. (I find that entire paragraph a bit pointless—musicians play shows, no need to describe every one of them)
  • I don't entirely disagree, but removing the graph would create a 5-year gap in the chronology, leaving the reader wondering if Harrison was active at all during this period, which he was. Speak with FAC reviewer User:JG66 for more detail. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 03:34, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The major culprit, though, is Musicianship, where lists of songs abound in Songwriting and Guitar work. The latter, especially, might be better off as a three-para overview and evolution of his guitaring, rather than the current series of short summaries of several songs.
  • You know as well as I do that if we do not engage in serious critical commentary regarding the songs in-line, then we cannot justify inclusion of an ogg file, which you have more than once insisted I add to FACs. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 03:34, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Studio collaborations: I'd go to the extent of saying delete this section and recast the information as a separate table-based article. The general stuff and quotes about his collaboratory personality can be tucked-in elsewhere.
  • Another example of excessive detail—HandMade Films, which reads like the perfect lead for that article. If you cut down to a summary of Harrison-relevant material (basically a summary of the first and last paras) you can just tuck it in chronologically in his life.
  • I disagree. Harrison was instrumental in salvaging British cinema during the 1980s, his involvement with the company is quite notable, and forcing it into the chronology will only weaken the narrative. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 03:47, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The third point and last point bring me to another major issue of the article--the number of sections after the chronological biography leads to each topic being discussed excessively in detail. For eg: Hinduism, why do we need to know every holy man he met? Or a less-than-accessible paragraph of his thoughts of Lord Krishna (and I say this as somebody born in a Hindu family).—indopug (talk) 03:23, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I strongly disagree. The point about Harrison's understanding of Krishna was added in an effort to flesh-out "Harrison the man", an important issue that has been repeatedly referred to as an area needing improvement regarding the article's overaching narrative. From ragas in utero to Shankar to his funeral and posthumous album it comes full-circle ala Hinduism. Thanks for your comments. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 03:34, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tony1

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This humungously long review page suggests that this nomination should have been withdrawn a while ago, worked on, and resubmitted. Reviewer resources are limited and shouldn't be squandered thus. Let's take one sentence from the lead:

"He became interested in the Hare Krishna movement, and an admirer of Indian culture and mysticism, introducing it to the other Beatles and to their Western audience, as he came to express and assert himself by incorporating Indian instrumentation in their music."

  • Clunky, long sentence.
  • So he became interested in an admirer of Indian culture and mysticism? Who? ...
  • "introducing it"—should that be them? If not, which of the two does it refer to?
  • Is "as" a causal or simultaneity meaning here? (If causal, "since" or "because" is better.)

I notice you use marked themes (i.e. sentence openings that are unusual, but still grammatical) without checking whether they flow. Just something to watch in your writing. "Also a music and film producer, he founded Dark Horse Records in 1974 and co-founded HandMade Films in 1978." As usual, the additive connector "also" isn't really necessary, so kill two birds with one stone, and start: "As a music and ..."? Here's another marked theme, just two seconds later—this time of a different class, a thematic equative, in which the comma functions as an equals sign: "A prolific recording artist, he was featured as a guest guitarist on tracks by Badfinger, Ronnie Wood and Billy Preston, and he collaborated on songs and music with Bob Dylan, Eric Clapton and Tom Petty, among others." It's ok, but please keep these in conscious mind for a while as you write. You might consider dropping the last "he", which surivives by ellipsis nicely.

Another thing to watch: shoving too much into one sentence. Look at this one: "Harrison was married twice, first to Pattie Boyd from 1966 to 1977 and from 1978 until his death from lung cancer in 2001 to Olivia Trinidad Arias, with whom he had one son, Dhani." Possibly just punctuate it to save the readers' holding on to too much in their working memory: "Harrison was married twice—first to Pattie Boyd from 1966 to 1977; and from 1978 until his death from lung cancer in 2001 to Olivia Trinidad Arias, with whom he had one son, Dhani." But I haven't fixed the reversal of order (person–year-range, then year-range–person) ... that's a crossword puzzle to solve! Tony (talk) 09:28, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think all these issues have been dealt with now. Malleus Fatuorum 17:23, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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