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May 5

Uzbek translation for Jeopardy! (franchise)

Dear Sirs, How can 'antiqa mantiq' be translated into English? Leroy Patterson IV (talk) 01:23, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Mantiq" might be a borrowing from an Arabic word meaning "eloquence, logic"... AnonMoos (talk) 03:14, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

~~Is the translation given in Jeopardy! (franchise), "Say the Word", not correct?~~ (I see you added that translation recently.) --Amble (talk) 06:15, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We have wikt::mantiq in English Wiktionary. We don't have wikt:antiqa, but it is in Uzbek Wiktionary at wikt:uz:antiqa. It seems to mean "antique", but also "unusual", "amazing", etc. --Amble (talk) 06:31, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Antiqa is an adjective that can mean "ancient", but also "old-fashioned", "traditional". However, based on some uses found on the Web it can apparently also mean "strange", "weird", "astonishing". In the title of this book, Antiqa Mantiq probably means "good old-fashioned logic" (logical reasoning), but maybe "astonishing logic". The collocation may be existing Uzbek idiom that was appropriated for the quiz show title. The term mantiq can also just mean "speech", "utterance", which fits better in the context of Jeopardy!. --Lambiam 06:50, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that we must interpret the particular meaning that is used in this context, and convert it into an equivalent phrase or 'title-line' in English. I have found three active Uzbek users, who I will now ping:

@Kamron99:

@Nataev:

@Nataeva:

As an aside, a number of users in Category:User uz-N seemed to be spam or troll accounts with the same user page and no other edits.

Leroy Patterson IV (talk) 12:39, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! "Antiqa mantiq" literally means creative or unusual logic. The thing is in Uzbek antiqa mantiq sounds great, kind of like a tongue twister. I don't know if there's an equivalent phrase in English. I hope it helps! Nataev ^talk 12:46, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Great Scott, it worked! Now you need an English equivalent? I don't know what phrase could possibly fit, this will take some brainstorming, lateral thought, or even thinking outside the box. Card Zero (talk) 13:19, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So it seems that the idiom derives its popularity from the rhymelike antiq*antiq, and that the reuse for Jeopardy! is essentially a pun using the polysemy of mantiq (and perhaps also of antiqa). If this was a children's book, you'd need a translation that also reuses an ambiguous rhymelike (possibly alliterative) idiom and can vaguely mean "amazing utterance", something like Word of Wisdom. I see little value in providing a single literal translation such as "Creative Logic". This makes sense for the title of the book with logic puzzles for children linked to above, but not so much for the quiz show. --Lambiam 15:53, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Quick Quip Quiz"... Maybe too quirky... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:08, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As Nataev said that "Antiqa mantiq" is like a tongue twist and means excellent logic (clue). Here the main emphasis is on rhymelike words and below are some of my versions:

Chop logic (maybe)

Adroit point

True clue Kamron99 (talk) 20:38, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Quizzy (= Antiqa) Quip (≈ Mantiq). --Lambiam 21:16, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree Leroy Patterson IV (talk) 21:45, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nit-pick question about formatting and punctuation

There are times when I need to format a word or a phrase ... for example, with bold or underline or italics (being the main three ways). If that word or phrase has an "adjacent" punctuation or other symbol ... does that "extra" symbol ALSO get bolded, underlined, and/or italicized ... or is that "extra symbol" simply left alone? Let me think of a hypothetical example. I have a Word document ... it has the phrase "List of committee members present:" ... and then, in a table or a chart or a bullet list, I list all of the names of the present committee members. If I need to format the phrase "List of committee members present" ... with either a bold, or underline, or italic font ... does the "extra" / adjacent punctuation mark of the colon (:) ALSO get bolded, underlined, and/or italicized? Or is that "extra symbol" (the colon) just listed in normal font, with no special format? This is just an example. Often, I find this "problem" happening when the "extra" material is parenthetical. For example: My Word document says ... "List of ingredients: (sold separately)" ... as a header for a list. If I need to format the "List of ingredients" with a bold, underline, or italics ... what do I do with the colon ... and what do I do with the entire parenthetical phrase, along with its parentheses symbols? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:33, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Traditionally, (most types of) punctuation have been typeset in the style of the preceding word—if a boldfaced or italic word was followed by a period, comma, colon, exclamation point, or similar, the period, comma, colon, exclamation point, or similar, was boldfaced or italicized as well. (The main exceptions were closing parentheses and em dashes.) This avoided the odd spacing, or lack of it, that would result if an italic word was followed, for instance, by a roman question mark. We explicitly don't do that on Wikipedia, though, and the convention seems to have fallen into desuetude elsewhere as well. I think you're probably OK if you use normal font for punctuation unless the punctuation is within an italicized or boldfaced passage. Deor (talk) 17:57, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. What would you do with my "ingredients sold separately" example? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:01, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, since you're asking what I would do, I'd put the colon after, rather than before, the parenthetical "sold separately" and boldface, italicize, or underscore the entire heading, including the parenthesis. There are other ways of dealing with it, of course, but headings are usually styled the same way throughout. (See the many tables in WP with headings like, for instance, "Distance (km)" rather than "Distance (km)".) Deor (talk) 18:20, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You don't need the colons at all. In your examples "List of committee members present:" and "List of ingredients: (sold separately)", delete the colons. What's more, you don't need the words "list of" either. Your headings should simply read "Committee members present" and "Ingredients (sold separately)". --Viennese Waltz 19:11, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Parent's co-parent, co-parent's offspring

The name for parent's spouse is step-parent. Without matrimony, is there a special name (whether in English or in any other language), also for parent's co-parent (i.e. for half-sibling's parent)?
The name for spouse's offspring is step-offspring. Without matrimony, is there a special name (whether in English or in any other language), also for co-parent's offspring (i.e. for offspring's half-sibling)?

I suspect the answer is negative, but I just want to see if I will be surprised. HOTmag (talk) 17:33, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Would that be your brother from another mother? --Jayron 32 18:05, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect, that my brother from another mother, is not my parent's co-parent, nor my co-parent's offspring, but rather is my ~~step~~ half-brother. HOTmag (talk) 18:33, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If they are your step-brother, they share only a matrimonial relationship; they have no genetic connection to you. They were born to two people whom you have no close genetic relationship; but one of their parents married one of your parents. If you share one parent, then you are half-brothers. Also, explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog. You understand it better but the frog dies in the process. --Jayron 32 18:49, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Parenthood does not necessarily involve matrimony. Nor does brotherhood. Nor does ~~step~~ half-brotherhood. Anyway, my original question was not about ~~step~~ half-brother, so it couldn't be about brother from another mother. HOTmag (talk) 19:24, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

When a person makes a joke, it is not meant to be taken as a serious answer to a question, so please, stop. --Jayron 32 10:45, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I didn't notice any joke in your first sentence I was referring to. HOTmag (talk) 12:44, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

HOTmag --- in ordinary modern English, "parent-in-law" and "step-parent" have different meanings. A parent-in-law is the parent of one's spouse (e.g. one's wife's mother etc), while a "step-parent" is one's parent's spouse who is not one's parent (e.g. one's father's second wife etc). Assuming that matrimony is involved, the parent of one's half-sibling would be a step-parent... AnonMoos (talk) 18:15, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Matrimony is not necessarily involved (I've just added that to my original question thanks to your comment). As for ordinary English, ok, so I delete the "parent-in-law" because its desired meaning is not in ordinary English. HOTmag (talk) 18:33, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is no special name for people with whom you share no connections through some combination of matrimony or genetics. The unmarried mate of my parent is nothing to me, by relationship; if they have a child together, that child is my half-sibling (in older days my bastard-half-sibling if I were being rude, or my "natural"-half-sibling if I were being more diplomatic). The unmarried mate of my parent does not get a new name because they had a child with my parent. They are not related to me either because I share genetics with them (I don't) nor are they married to anyone in my family (they are not). Thus, there is no term. --Jayron 32 18:45, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On a related note, is there a term for a half-sibling's half-sibling? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:46, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You mean, to me? My half brother's other half brother could either be any one of three things 1) my full brother 2) my half brother or 3) nothing at all. It depends on what the parentage of the people is. For example, if I my parents have two sons, me and another, then one dies and the other remarries and has a third son, that third son is my half brother. His other half brother is my full brother. That's situation 1. Let's say that my parents had me only, but one died. Then my surviving parent married again, and then had another son. Then one died again. Then let's say that that parent remarried again and had a third son. If I asked who that my half-brother's half-brother is in that case, he's also my half brother. That's scenario 2. Now, let's say that my parents had me, and got divorced. Then they each remarried and had another son each. Now, I have two half brothers, but each half brother's other half brother is of no relation to each other. That's scenario 3. --Jayron 32 18:56, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, sorta scenario three, I have a half-sibling's half-sibling, that I meet sometimes at family reunions. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:01, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I as well have a similarly convoluted family; given that 1) it is very large, with several multiple marriage via death and divorce and 2) my mom had two brothers that married a mother and daughter. Growing up in that situation, I got really good at figuring out familial relationships. --Jayron 32 19:04, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Wakuran: My half-sibling's half-sibling, if not being myself nor my sibling nor my half-sibling, is necessarily my step-sibling (but not necessarily vice versa) - assuming that step-brotherhood does not need matrimony of anybody (but maybe I'm wrong and it does). Just as my sibling's sibling, if not being myself, is necessarily my sibling (but not necessarily vice versa). HOTmag (talk) 19:32, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Step-siblings DO need matrimony; look, picture your dad is fucking this woman, but he's not married to her. He's just fucking her. If she already had a son, who is that son to you? Nothing, she's just the son of the chick your dad is fucking. If your dad MARRIES that chick, that son becomes your step brother. But until there's a marriage involved, there's no step-anything. Fucking people doesn't create family words. Marriage and birth do. --Jayron 32 10:51, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As for step-siblings, I had already added a reservation: "assuming that step-brotherhood does not need matrimony of anybody". You claim this assumptoin is wrong. Ok, but still my full claim was correct, because of the reservation I'd added (including the parentheses following it). HOTmag (talk) 12:44, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Wakuran: From a logical point of view: If everyone's parents became one's parents when they were married to each other, then my half-sibling's half-sibling, if not being myself nor my sibling nor my half-sibling, is necessarily my step-sibling (but not necessarily vice versa). Just as my sibling's sibling, if not being myself, is necessarily my sibling (but not necessarily vice versa). HOTmag (talk) 17:31, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Jayron32: You claim that "There is no special name for people with whom you share no connections through some combination of matrimony or genetics". Not necessarily. My question has already mentioned the option of co-parents. My co-parent shares no genetics with me, nor have they ever been married to me, yet they do have a special name: They are my "co-parent". So I've asked, what about my parent's co-parent, and what about my co-parent's offspring? As I have already indicated, I suspect there is no special name for this kind of "relative", but I still want to see if I will be surprised, not necesarily for the English language. HOTmag (talk) 19:11, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Look, this is growing wearisome. No one has ever used a special word for the concept you're trying to find. If you want to invent your own word, why don't you just do it. --Jayron 32 10:47, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not interested in inventions - but rather in standard usage. As I have already indicated, I'm not asking about English alone - but rather about any language - even one only (it doesn't matter which one). I guess there isn't a term for this kind of relationship - in any language, but I still want to see if I will be surprised. HOTmag (talk) 12:44, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My two sons are genetically half-brothers (different fathers). The elder one has a half-brother from his birth father's second marriage, and that half-brother has a half-brother from his birth mother's first marriage. My son has never met any of these people (he never even saw his birth father after the age of 7 months, and now he's dead), so the question of how to label them has never arisen. I suspect that if ever the need arose, it'd be "This is Bob. We're sort of related, but it's too hard to explain". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:22, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@JackofOz: English has a lot of terms for many kinds of relationships between people who have never met, e.g. siblings (who may have never seen each other), and the like. Indeed, my brother is my parent's son - and I did meet my parent who did meet their son who is my brother, but the same is true for the relationships I'm asking about - i.e. about parent's co-parent and about co-parent's offspring: Indeed I have never met my parent's co-parent - but I did meet my parent - who did meet their co-parent, and indeed I have never met my co-parent's offspring - but I did meet my co-parent - who did meet their offspring. HOTmag (talk) 07:01, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

May 6

Describing these people

1- A policeman is murdered by a bandit, and his daughter marries the bandit.

2- The character played by Samuel L Jackson in Django Unchained. A Black man supporting White slave masters.

3- Japanese Army committed genocide in China during Second World War. After a few weeks, a Chinese family invited the Japanese soldiers for dinner and told other angry Chinese "We believe in peace, we don't want hate, let us forget the past".

I am not looking for words like ungrateful, unfaithful, or renegade. How could they be described in a sentence? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alvarejuui (talk • contribs) 15:19, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Which people, specifically? --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:24, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For the Chinese family in 3, the word "forgiving" would be appropriate. It might also fit the daughter in 1. I have not seen Django, so I do not know the possible motives for that character. -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 17:15, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I assume the OP is seeking a descriptive term that applies to all three. They have in common that their behaviour does not conform to that what some would stereotypically expect from people obeying kinship or group bonds. They should, stereotypically, have been harbouring hate towards those who treat(ed) their kinsfolk or members of their group badly. --Lambiam 17:24, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Depending on what you want to say about them, they could be called nuanced, objective, oblivious, or pragmatic. Perhaps peacemaking or reconciliatory. Card Zero (talk) 20:46, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

May 7

Hers is severely underutilized

The word hers is defeated by the word her in genitive term Why the female pronoun being biased toward her not hers? 114.122.105.134 (talk) 07:43, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They have different grammatical roles, just like the pairs my – mine, you – yours, our – ours, their – theirs. The first of each pair is used attributively, the second predicatively. ("Is this our room? Yes, this one is ours.) The word his is exceptional because it assumes both of these roles. --Lambiam 08:59, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, "her" is used both as the oblique and as the genitive case. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:17, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If I understand your question correctly, it's also about the word his. I think I can rewrite it, if you don't mind: The word hers is replaced by the word her in the genitive, so why does the word his have no corresponding replacement? If you look at the Etymonline entry for his, it mentions that a corresponding replacement did briefly exist - or rather, a replacement for his in the role corresponding to hers: In Middle English, hisis was tried for the absolute pronoun (compare her/hers), but it failed to stick. I'm unclear on where the suffix -is (later -es or -s or -'s) comes from. Presumably hisis was not a contraction of "his his". Card Zero (talk) 10:51, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ah man... i can use the word hers correctly in genitive form because they are currently phasing iut the word her on genitive. WHY THEY ARE SEXIST BECAUSE OF THE WORD HER ON GENITIVE?! what the heck 114.122.105.134 (talk) 11:37, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Languages are what they are, not what you, or anybody, thinks they should be. You are, of course, free to use your made-up version of English: you risk being misunderstood or thought a weirdo, but that's up to you. The rest of us will continue speaking English. ColinFine (talk) 11:59, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, hers made-up version of English is still English, and I'm going to try it. It's more regular. Card Zero (talk) 12:40, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And you most especially are NOT to use this made-up version English when writing on this website. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:09, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Aaaaa (screaming in annoyance) i really caused a scratching head to myself caused by anything related with females because female as a whole is just a mere object according to most male around the world. (Breathing and hissing in anger) it would be pitiful for all female people because of misusing the word her and hers in the past. The word her is one of the most annoying word ive ever seen because of underuse word of hers. (screaming) 114.122.105.134 (talk) 13:29, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They both (her and his, or hers and him) get the same amount of use, though, as Wakuran pointed out. Look:

possessive	dative	determiner
hers	her	her
his	him	his

It's irregular, but it's balanced. Card Zero (talk) 13:59, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

114, the unequal treatment of women is a real problem in the world, and that behaviour is partly mediated and supported by language: thus far I agree with you. But the relevant features of language are nearly all in vocabulary, not in grammar (one exception is the traditional use of masculine pronouns to refer to a person or persons in general). What you perceive as a lack of parallel between the treatment of masculine and feminine pronouns is not salient to most people, and your repeated reference to "misuse" is tendentious. I suggest you find a battle that is worth fighting, rather than something where most people won't even understand wht you are trying to say. ColinFine (talk) 14:05, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Calling this English oddity "sexist" is really a stretch. Maybe overthinking by a non-native English speaker? --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:39, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The English language has no genitive, but the possessive is sometimes referred to as the genitive. I am unable to assign a meaning to the statements that the word hers is defeated by the word her in genitive term, and that they are currently phasing out the word her on genitive. These words are used now just the same way as they were a century ago. --Lambiam 23:27, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh (anger) why the determiner and dative are both her?! Huh huh?!?!?! I am really annoying now because the word her is very bad at all in my opinion if not the wordst english in the universe. I will use hers in determiner even if its incorrect. Curse you card zero. I will try fix that mistake. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa (screaming on top of lung due to annoyance to the word her.) Whats happening in the world that someone use her same as him and his? More like degrading the reputation the women as a whole in english speaking world. I cant even make jokes in this section because its prohibited! Why they even ignoring the word hers in everyday typing the computer usage? 114.122.107.129 (talk) 04:39, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This has nothing to do with computer usage. It is just the English language. A child may say, "Where's Mommy? I don't see her." If instead she says, "Where's Mommy? I don't see hers", her siblings or playmates will likely correct her grammar. Screaming at the child will not contribute to the abolishment of the word her, which, as far as I know, does not annoy anyone in the world except you. --Lambiam 07:46, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The IP has aptly demonstrated an underdeveloped ability to write English sentences in general. --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:27, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese translation request

A photo of a fossil in a museum in Japan, Cladophlebis nebbensis - National Museum of Nature and Science, Tokyo - DSC07005.JPG, [1] is in Wikimedia Commons. The photo contains a description in Japanese written by the museum curators, which is visible at the bottom of the photo (next to fossil's the Latin genus/species name Cladophlebis nebbensis). I am hoping that the Japanese text may include details of the fossil's age and the location where it was found. Can anyone tell me a translation in English, please? GeoWriter (talk) 16:54, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Eirikr: as the most-recently-active Japanese-speaking user I know. (The description looks to be just a few words long.) -sche (talk) 18:20, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My Japanese is very limited, but that description doesn't look like an actual text, as it lacks any hiragana. I don't think it mentions anything about the age, although I could at least make out the word Yamaguchi Prefecture. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:09, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Over the kanji characters (in the parenthesis in the top line and in the bottom line) we see furigana, "small print" hiragana indicating their pronunciation. Especially the furigana on the bottom line is not sharp enough to be easily legible for someone not used to reading Japanese. Apart from the kanji character 三 meaning "three" but here possibly the beginning of a proper noun, there are no numeral characters, so there appears to be no indication of the age. The top line reads (if I made no mistakes) "kuradofurebisu (shidashokufutsu/shidarui)". Clearly, kuradofurebisu is a transcription of Cladophlebis. I have no clue about the meaning of the parenthesis and am happy to leave the deciphering of the bottom line to others. --Lambiam 22:07, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think the first half of the bottom line is the age. The second half is 山口県 Yamaguchi Prefecture 美祢市 Mine city 大嶺 (not totally sure about the last kanji, too blurred; probably means 大嶺町, a town in Mine city), giving the location. —Kusma (talk) 22:23, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And the time period is 三畳紀後期, which probably means "late Triassic period". Disclaimer: I don't actually know Japanese, but I can read Chinese and decipher kanji. —Kusma (talk) 22:27, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is consistent with this entry in the museum's database of specimens. So it appears that the specimen is from Yamaguchi Prefecture Asa-gun, Asa-cho Yamanoi, Mine unit. The geologic age is given in the database as just "Triassic", which is 三畳紀 in Japanese. --Lambiam 22:43, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The furigana over the last character seem to be みね, "mine". That may make the last two characters 大嶺, Ōmine. There is a town by that name, which is part of Mine City. --Lambiam 23:06, 7 May 2022 (UTC) — Sorry, I did not see that Kusma had already come up with this theory; the furigana corroborates it. --Lambiam 23:15, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No need to apologise, I sneakily edited my answer. Good to see that we agree. —Kusma (talk) 23:35, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, what's a few 50 million years in the long run of things, anyway? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 01:02, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For シダ “shida” see wikt:しだ, meaning “fern.” —Amble (talk) 01:45, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to all of you. This information is very helpful to me. GeoWriter (talk) 09:50, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Egyptian "alphabetical" order

In our entries on the stages of Egyptian writing, e.g. Transliteration of Ancient Egyptian and Demotic (Egyptian), uniliteral signs are "ordered alphabetically" (in the words of the first of those articles) such that, for example (skipping the first few signs to get to ones that have consistent transliterations), the sign transliterated b (𓃀) is followed by p (𓊪), then f (𓆑), then m (𓅓). What is the basis for this order? Is it found in Egyptian sources, the way there are Runic inscriptions that give the alphabetical order of Runic ("f u þ a r k g...")? Or is it modern convention, in which case, what is it based on, since it doesn't match the Latin or Coptic or e.g. Hebrew or Arabic (other Afroasiatic languages') alphabets? -sche (talk) 17:27, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Gardiner's 1927 Egyptian Grammar: Being an Introduction to the Study of Hieroglyphs has on page 27 a table entitled "The Alphabet". This table uses the same order. Gardiner's grammar being considered a standard reference, others apparently have followed suit(e). Gardiner does not present an explanation or rationale for this order. --Lambiam 21:28, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

May 8

The letter J and sound /j/

Which is the reason that English is the only Germanic language where the letter J does not represent the /j/ sound? Has the letter J ever represented the /j/ sound in history on English? --40bus (talk) 11:22, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As noted in that J article you cited, the English "J" comes from the French "J", i.e. not from the Germanic "J". Keep in mind that modern English is a hybrid, not purely Germanic at all. When an English "J" is pronounced like a "Y", it's typically a loanword. Examples that come to mind immediately are the song "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring", and also the line from "Little Drummer Boy" that says "Baby Jesu, pah-rum-pah-pum-pum..." --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:27, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]