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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 98.45.199.13 (talk) at 03:55, 28 May 2022 (Add Request: Discussion of the Uvalde School Shooting page. Likely watershed event in how SWAT is seen). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former good article nomineeSWAT was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Requested move 15 November 2014

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 22:57, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

SWAT → SWAT team – Nobody calls these units "SWATs". It's always "SWAT teams", so the "team" is an integral part of the name. —Neil P. Quinn (talk) 22:53, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
  • Oppose: You made a proposal that fell flat. You immediately closed it and started a fresh one that is drastically different than the other one. This looks less like trying to be helpful and more like just wanting to change something. If you need a specific reason, I'll say that your reasoning is flawed. No, nobody calls it "Swats", but that's plural. The singular of "Swat" is frequently used ("call SWAT", "I tried out for SWAT", "SWAT will make the initial entry" etc.). It's not broken, so maybe we shouldn't try fixing it. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:26, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Niteshift36: Yep, it's just not my week, is it? I knew the other one might fail (that's why I said I'd propose this as a second option from the start), but I honestly thought this one would be completely uncontroversial. Obviously, I was mistaken! By the by, I also thought that my second edit to the lede (not mentioning "police paramilitary unit" and using fewer links) would satisfy your objections. I had no intention of forcing it through, and I'll start a discussion about it at some point.
Anyway, I don't think I've ever seen "SWAT" used in my life without the word team or some synonym (although "team" is by far the most common). Given that we have to base this decision on use in reliable sources, could you point out some that use "SWAT" by itself?
Anyway, I see what you're saying about "SWAT" by itself, but it seems kind of like spoken professional slang that isn't really used by books and articles. Given that we have to base this decision on use in reliable sources, could you point out some that use "SWAT" by itself like that?—Neil P. Quinn (talk) 05:08, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not professional slang at all. Mainstream media includes uses like these [1] and [2], using "SWAT officer" , "SWAT members" and "SWAT operations" , but not "SWAT team"? Or this example: [3]. It says things like "Hillview police requested SWAT assistance", "LMPD SWAT was on scene as a precaution..." and "...when Cary realized SWAT was going to come into his home...". There are a few uses that showed up on the first page of my google search. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:43, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another good example would be this: [4]. While it uses "Swat team", is also uses SWAT in other uses like "selected for SWAT must pass", "the basic SWAT school", "SWAT’s function is to safely" and "the basic SWAT school". In the end, the acronym is used 6 times in that passage, but only followed by team twice, leaving 4 uses without team. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:49, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Niteshift36, thanks for the examples! My point (which I admit I haven't expressed well) is that pretty much all of them use SWAT as an adjective: SWAT team, SWAT unit, SWAT officer, SWAT assistance, SWAT members, SWAT school, and so on. Using it as a noun ("SWAT was on the scene," "SWAT's function") seems like uncommon professional slang, and titles should be nouns. Hence my feeling that SWAT needs to be combined with something like "team" to work as a title.—Neil P. Quinn (talk) 06:58, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • SWAT is a often noun Neil. I just gave you 3 examples of where SWAT was used by itelf. "LMPD SWAT was on the scene..." is certainly used as a noun. Same with the other 2 examples. Who used it? Not "unprofessional slang", but a mainstream news outlet. Bottom line: You based this original notion on what you have or haven't heard and apparently your exposure isn't as broad as you thought it was. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:32, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • oppose "SWAT" is used on its own frequently, and the "team" is not always a team, as large police forces have multiple SWAT teams in their SWAT squad. Some even have multiple squads with multiple teams each in their unit. -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 04:25, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're not looking very hard if you can't find a whole lot of instances of only "SWAT". Just looke at Niteshift's responses. [5][6][7][8] ; further, "SWAT unit" is also used in place of "SWAT team", as I stated earlier, if there are multiple teams, the unit isn't going to be called a team, is it? -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 05:16, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support but without much enthusiasm. It really depends on what we talk about--are we having the article be about the teams, or about the concept of SWATtiness? I can't imagine an article on the latter. Red Slash 00:10, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • This article is more about the concept of SWAT. It goes into the history, training, equipment. this article purposely does NOT list teams because it's not about teams. There is a "list of...." elsewhere. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:28, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I don't see a compelling reason to move the page. SWAT is both a more concise title and the common name. I don't get what Neil's obsession with moving this page is all about. -- Calidum 00:35, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I think I've figured out why the current title strikes me as wrong. "SWAT" is pretty much always an adjective (SWAT team, SWAT school, SWAT officer, SWAT operations), but titles should be nouns. So we really need to add something to make it a noun—like "team".—Neil P. Quinn (talk) 06:58, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Except that your premise is incorrect. I immediately gave you 3 examples of a news report using SWAT as a noun. Also, the government example I gave you has 2 uses. "selected for SWAT must pass..." is a noun usage. "SWAT’s function is to safely..." is a noun. (It's even being used in a possessive form.). this is like the word "football". There can be a football team, but football can still be a noun. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:37, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, since I gave you examples of govt and mainstream media using it as a noun, standing by it just makes me question your true intentions. In any case, I have disproven your claims. first it was "it's never used without team". Disproven. then it was "it's not a noun". Disproven. Oh, don't forget the first failed attempt to change the title to something totally different. BTW, personally I find your invented "SWATiness" word to be a little demeaning. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:30, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Niteshift36: I didn't intend "SWATiness" to be demeaning (and I don't think Red Shift did either), so I apologize for that.
Yes, you've provided a couple examples of SWAT being used as a noun. I didn't realize that use existed at all, so thanks for showing me. But I still say that SWAT is almost always used as an adjective (say, at least 90% of the time). In response to my last proposal, you said "Ghits are evidence of nothing"—meaning that a couple Google hits prove nothing about how common a use is. That was a fair point (although I said from the start that "SWAT team is by far the most common term for these units in the United States") and I'll make it back to you right now. A couple webpages and local news reports prove nothing about how common the use is. Take the two pages of the Google Books results for "SWAT police": 18 uses as an adjective, 3 as a noun. It's not the final word, but I certainly think it's suggestive, don't you?
My intention here, obviously, is to replace what I think is a mediocre title with a better one. I'm seriously curious: what do you think it is?—Neil P. Quinn (talk) 02:43, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neil, I've disproven your basic claim. And the secondary claim. And the other proposal. Now you're trying the "more common" angle. Please don't give me this "as I've said from the beginning..." nonsense. You've made many claims, some pretty ridiculous, that you based on your clearly limited exposure to various uses. I don't see a need to continue doing it until you come up with something truly new. Your chameleon reasoning looks more like a desire to win or be right than a genuine concern to improve the title. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:53, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's a fact that you said that, [u]in a different proposal[/u]. In THIS proposal, you made the claim "I don't think I've ever seen "SWAT" used in my life without the word team or some synonym". I guess the misunderstanding is because I need to specify which proposal I'm talking about and which line of reasoning you're going with, since there are numerous ones. Maybe if you picked a reason and stuck with it, the discussion would be more clear. BTW, that statement was in regards to the "it's not a noun" reason, which was disproven. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:06, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Uvalde School Shooting

Should there be a discussion of the details coming out about the Uvalde School shooting? Apparently 40% of the local budget was spent on the local police and SWAT force.[1] The local SWAT team, despite training specifically at local schools[2][3] did not intervene in the shooting.[4][5][6] Local police even inhibited Federal SWAT units from responding.[7] Overall it appears to be a situation like the Columbine High School massacre 23 years ago where the SWAT team and their tactics failed respond in a timely manner.

Suspect that I am not alone in seeing this as a watershed event that for the first time really brought to attention the question the actual public safety value of these SWAT teams bring, as seemingly are unable to actually respond when needed. So recommend that this gets added to the page. 98.45.199.13 (talk) 03:54, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Pierce, Charles (2022-05-26). "There Were Good Guys With Guns and It Didn't Matter". Retrieved 2022-05-27. Uvalde spent 40 percent of its budget on its police force last year.
  2. ^ Gualt, Matthew (2022-05-26). "Uvalde SWAT Team Bragged About Training at Schools on Facebook". Vice News. Retrieved 2022-05-27. The purpose of the visits is to familiarize themselves with layouts of our local schools and businesses. S.W.A.T members will be in full tactical uniforms and we did not want the public to be alarmed when seen
  3. ^ Baker, Mike (2022-05-26). "Uvalde Had Prepared for School Shootings. It Did Not Stop the Rampage". New York Times. Retrieved 2022-05-27.
  4. ^ Stelter, Brian (2022-05-27). "Texas newspaper editor says 'urgent questions' about Uvalde massacre have not been answered". CNN. Retrieved 2022-05-27.
  5. ^ Evans, Gareth (2022-05-27). "Uvalde shooting: Texas police change key details as criticism mounts". BBC. Retrieved 2022-05-27.
  6. ^ Brown, Elizabeth (2022-05-26). "Witnesses, Video Suggest Stunning Inaction From Uvalde Cops During School Shooting". Reason. Retrieved 2022-05-27. Department of Public Safety Director Steve McCraw said somewhere between 40 minutes and an hour went by between the time Ramos encountered the school security officer and when he was killed by the tactical team that included Border Patrol agents.
  7. ^ Marcus, Josh (2022-05-27). "Uvalde police stopped Border Patrol SWAT team from entering school sooner: report". Indepdendent. Retrieved 2022-05-27. Members of the Uvalde Police Department temporarily kept the elite team of Border Patrol commandos who ultimately killed Salvador Ramos from entering Robb Elementary School


Section about the special tactics missing

Lift technique
Lift technique

There is a section on the weapons used by SWAT teams, but no section about the special tactics used. For example something about the lift technique that is shown in the article (see picture to the right) would be nice. Greetings, --Qaswed (talk) 08:47, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Removing mention of Iraqi prison break

 While interesting, the relevance of the riot is not clearly apparent considering that this is an article exclusively about United States law enforcement. It was not handled by US police but rather local security so unless we are expanding the scope of the article to include gendarmerie  in general it seems harmless to remove it for consistency reasons.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by JSory (talk • contribs) 09:43, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

SWAT

What does the federal swat do? 2601:203:C100:E9D0:95BD:BB61:EF97:5B9B (talk) 04:45, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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