Talk:Ship

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Design considerations section

The design considerations section seems out of place in this page... perhaps this information should be moved to the shipbuilding page?

Ship v. Boat

A ship is, generally, larger than a boat. Is this a controversial claim? Cruise ships, cargo ships, and military combat ships are all large (and ships), while kayaks, canoes, and yachts are considered boats and are significantly smaller. Power~enwiki (talk) 04:21, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

It's not a controversial claim, although what once was considered a ship might now be considered a boat. Additionally, the largest submarine is still considered a boat. The ship, USS Cole was carried aboard another ship, MV Blue Marlin after being damaged by bombing, still consistent with the maxim "a ship can carry a boat, but a boat cannot carry a ship". User:HopsonRoad 12:11, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Just to raise a point, i dont have any source on this - rather just general knowledge having personally gone to a Uni with a marine connection. I believe the general modern interpretation is a ship leans out of a turn, whereas a boat leans in to the turn. Might just be an old wives tale, but thought it may be better than the sort of "not really sure" explanation atm. Maybe an idea to springboard off if an authoritative source can be found Garfie489 (talk) 04:01, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for this, Garfie489. I understand that's a distinction made in the US Navy, but I haven't found an official reference on this, either! Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 21:39, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Massive gap needs to be removed

In my opinion, the massive gap on the 'See also' section before the text underneath the tab should be removed as it makes the section look untidy in my opinion. Xboxsponge15 (talk) 13:20, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for the tip, Xboxsponge15! HopsonRoad (talk) 15:50, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

No problem! Xboxsponge15 (talk) 16:01, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Feminine gender

At the end of the Nomenclature section, the article states, "Ship (along with nation) is an English word that has retained a female grammatical gender in some usages, which allows it sometimes to be referred to as a she without being of female natural gender.[13] However, Wiktionary traces it back through Middle English schip, Old English skip, Proto-West-Germanic *skip, and Proto-Germanic *skipą, all of which were neuter. I think a better explanation is needed as to why ships (and some other vehicles) are sometimes treated as feminine.

-- Solo Owl 03:54, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

That's not for us to judge, Solo Owl. We depend on reliable sources and when they disagree, we report the disagreement. Something published in the Cambridge University Press is as reliable as it comes. The entirety of Chapter Four in the reference given is devoted to this question. If it's incorrectly paraphrased, then it would be good to suggest how to improve the entry, here. HopsonRoad (talk) 02:54, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Size of a sailing ship/bowsprit/159 year old reference

I am alarmed by the edit [1] by User:HopsonRoad (and subsequent edits).
(1) The definition of a ship (as in full-rigged ship) is all about the rig. There is no consideration of the size of the hull. Therefore you have examples of brigs which are bigger than ships. I can dig out a reference for that given time, but this problem needs fixing a.s.a.p.
(2) There is no requirement for a ship to have a bowsprit. They (probably) invariably do, but the definition is all about the square rigged masts.
(3) The reference given to support this is 159 years old. The more modern reference (Jenny Bennett, Sailing Rigs, an Illustrated Guide) is right up to date, written by someone with excellent credentials, and relies on equally impressive references. Note that the 159 year old ref was from a time when the terminology was adjusting to steam vessels and, I suggest, the nautical dictionary writer was struggling with the developing language.
(4) Leaving the text as it is directly contradicts the reference given (Bennett) - if you don't like the text supported by Bennett, at least delete the reference, because otherwise Wikipedia is misrepresenting that author. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:36, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

And the 159 year old reference does not actually support the text in the article. Hence the failed verification tag. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:33, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

ThoughtIdRetired, bear in mind, the description is from the Age of Sail, not the modern perspective, when the reference would have applied. I can't see what's in Bennet, so it's hard to judge its merits. Perhaps you could quote Bennet, here, so we can discuss what it says. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 02:23, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

This 1898 source says, that a ship is "a term applied indiscriminately to any large vessel, but among seamen is restricted to one that is full-rigged." By now, we're past the age of sail. HopsonRoad (talk) 02:34, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Upon further reflection, I concur with your concerns, ThoughtIdRetired. I hope what I have written is closer to the mark. Thanks for taking the time to comment. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 12:29, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Here is the answer that I had started on:

(A) Jenny Bennett says: "Definition. The full-rigged ship carries three or more masts, all of which are square-rigged. Each mast is in three parts: lower, top and topgallant; and usually in four: the highest section being the royal (although in later ships the topgallant and royal masts were combined in a single pole mast)." The definition then discusses the fore and aft sails that one would expect to find on a ship and then the naming of the various sails. The story of the development of ships goes on to mention that iron and then steel masts did away with the strict "3-section" masts in the definition.

(B) Another source, widely cited, is Harold Underhill's Sailing Ship Rigs and Rigging. Page 2 says "Ship. A ship is a vessel having three or more masts and fully square-rigged throughout. Each mast is composed of a lower-mast, topmast, topgallant-mast, and in most cases royal-mast." Underhill then states that topgallants and royal were, in later ships, combined into a single pole mast.

(C) Looking at maritime glossaries, etc., we have Jane's Dictionary of Naval Terms which says "Ship. (1) General term for a seagoing vessel (in contrast to boat.....) (2) Sailing vessel with three (occ. more) masts and square-rigged on all of them...."

Out of all this, I think the article needs to make clear that a ship is either a loose general term for a seagoing vessel of a wide number of types or a specific type of sailing vessel, defined by its rig. When people use or used the latter definition, we would find them also talking about brigs, barques, schooners, etc, – with "ship" being used in the same way as the other terms that we immediately know describe the rig.

I unexpectedly find myself out of time to look at this more right now, but note that edits have been made to the article. I will get back to this later. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 13:22, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

References