Talk:Michael Jackson

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Greatest Of All Time

oh dear whos better then Michael Jackson? lets see we have Prince whos great, , James Brown, Beatles, darn anyone else that can do what MJ can? not a rock band or a singer like Sinatra or Madonna.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.74.11.76 (talk) 03:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

This isn't relevant to the article, but there are a variety of factors to compare. The greatest musician was Beethoven in my opinion. MJ is probably the greatest entertainer ever - he can literally entertain crowds better than anyone else - and is comparable to Elvis in fame, stature, and musical accomplishments. Prince does not belong in the list above; he doesn't even come close.UberCryxic 20:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Some thoughts from a fan

Okay, I'm completely new to Wiki so go easy on me. First off, interesting debate here and much more civilised than any MJ message boards! But I do think there's a lot of insider MJ missing from this encyclopedia write-up. I wish more of the message board people would come here and help out. Here are a few notes for now:

This write-up is extremely unbalanced, not in terms of fact/opinion but in the weight that's given to the last 5 or 6 six years versus his earlier career. Obviously, writers have more fresh facts/data for this time period, but it's unfair to lump Thriller into a 10-year period and then give a special section to a 2-year period involving the Bashir video.

Here's how I'd divide this write-up to make it more encyclopedic. I'll give categories here with a few notes on things that might be changed/added:

"Early life and career: 1966 – 1981" Make end of title 1981 not 1980. You could even divide into "Early life and the Jackson 5: 1966 - 1975" and "The Jacksons and Going Solo: 1976 - 1981." Section needs some work. Where are all the details about the Jackson 5 and Jacksons? It's strange that we get a petty exchange between MJ and Gloria Allred (under "Berlin and Bashir"), but no real details or quotes here. Relationship between MJ and Berry Gordy (his second Dad), fact that MJ recorded so much and "missed out on his childhood" (common theme in later interviews), alleged abuse from father, blossoming dance talent, appearance in "Free to Be You And Me" video, robot dance move, Ed Sullivan appearance (!), more hits from Jacksons including "Shake Your Body (Down To The Ground)", emergence of MJ as songwriter on songs such as "Blues Away" (first solo writing credit, off The Jacksons) and "Heartbreak Hotel" (off Triumph) and "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough" and "Working Day and Night" (on Off the Wall). There's a lot to add here.

"The Thriller Era: 1982 - 1985" I'd make this a separate section. This is the era that defined his career and changed pop music! It's missing a lot of details; again, why do we get so many details from Bashir video and zero quotes from this era?! Motown 25 performance at the very least needs some beefing up. This was considered a revolution when it aired. Maybe add anecdote about Fred Astaire calling up MJ the next day and telling him he was a "hell of a mover." Maybe some quotes from MJ about the album, what he wanted to do with it? Maybe notes on impact of Thriller video (on other artists, commonly mimicked choreography, etc.), fact that he brought Emmanuelle Lewis and Brooke Shields to the Grammy Awards, fact that he started jogging with the military and wearing some crazy military garb. So much to add, so little of it here!

"More Success and Controversy: 1986 - 1992" This would be a new section, possibly with a different title. Maybe "Bad and Dangerous: 1986-1992"? Seems cumbersome to list the album titles, but that's really the best way to chart his career. This section needs a mention of the fact that the National Inquirer claims MJ *gave them* the pictures of the hyperbaric chamber and told them to print it with the word "Weird" in the headline, meaning MJ wanted some "weird" tabloid coverage and toyed with the tabloids for a bit, though it obviously got out of hand. I've seen this mentioned in several biographies and (I think) the show 60 minutes. No mention of film Moonwalker?! Also mention fact that Oprah interview was a major television event, over 50 million viewers, I believe. Dangerous album gets majorly shortchanged here. And "which was accompanied by a controversial music video featuring scenes of a sexual nature, violence and racism" is weak; the controversial part was the dance sequence at the *end* of the video, and there was no "racism" just some KKK graffiti on a window that he angrily smashes (though I don't believe that was in original version). Should also mention morphing technology used in video, which was groundbreaking at the time.

"First Allegations and Aftermath: 1993 - 2001" If later sections are going to be really specific, this needs to be a separate section. Really, the allegations defined this era; all his music is a reaction to it, both HIStory and Blood on the Dancefloor. Lots of angry, weird music. And what about all the crazy promotion for the HIStory album?! He floated a statue of himself down the Thames, for crying out loud, and the promo video is totally over the top propaganda (in a fabulous way, IMO). Also, re: "Jew me, sue me" lyrics, I don't think this is encyclopedic because it gives a one-sided version. MJ has said "I was using myself as the victim" and identifying with the persecution of Jews or something to that effect; in other words, he's saying "Jew me" (or, persecute me the way the Jews were persecuted), and then he says "sue me" because...it rhymes. It's breathtakingly naive, but this is what he claims. Worth noting. For Invincible, you might note the efforts to bring MJ back to his earlier Off the Wall sound on a few songs like "Butterflies." It's also noteworthy that he *finally* started singing songs about relationships again and stopped singing about 1993 allegations. This section is missing Madison Square Garden 30th Anniversary shows, on 9/7 and 9/10/01 (a wealth of freakshow details, also noteworthy for pairing him with Liza and producer David Gest, and MJ was later Best Man at their crazy wedding). Might also note that MJ fled NYC after 9/11, and Corey Feldman claims he didn't offer him a ride in his limo, causing a rift in their friendship (petty detail?).

Okay, I think rest of the sections can keep their titles, but the trial section needs beefing up! So many details worth adding there, including fact that E! re-enacted the trial scenes daily, tabloid coverage, snazzy Mr. Blackwell-approved outfits daily, pajama mishap, reports of physical/mental deterioation, anticipation of the verdict; really, in my mind, the frenzy over the trial is eerily almost as fervid as frenzy during Thriller era, like a counterbalance to his career. Not an encyclopedic theory, but worth noting for context.

That's all for now. Sorry to take up so much space. Feel free to comment, edit, delete, whichever. I'll be back to make some comments to the main text if people like my ideas. --Steverino 05:20, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you Steverino, this article needs beefing up. Aeneiden-Rex 07:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I think u should change the article the way u've written here, it's good.Aeneiden-Rex 14:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely. In all truthfulness, Jackson's career and height of popularity was in the earlier years and those sections should be far larger than the sections regarding recent controversies. There needs to be some work done. But the problem is if Jackson fans make any changes trying to ballance the early years non-Jackson fans tend to call it POV. If the controversies are made larger the Jackson fans get upset and then wars start and nothing gets done. I feel that fact is more important than rumours and possibilities. I'm not saying the controversies do not belong - but this article needs more about Jackson's career not his private/social life - he is afterall an entertainer. :: ehmjay 18:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I actually disagree a bit and think that it's acceptable to list the controversies in detail. It's part of his legacy, whether fans like it or not. I believe more than 50 million people watched the announcement of the trial verdict, which is about the number of people who have bought the Thriller album (and same number who watched Oprah interview!). So I think the career and the controversy should balance each other out similarly in this article. The only thing I have a problem with is the fact that huge chunks of career are done in a few paragraphs whereas the last few years are picked apart year by year. I'll go into the article and edit a bit if I have some time this weekend. 12.149.50.2 22:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh I totally agree that the controversies are nescicary to the article, however as you said, I do not think that they should be the largest section or that is to say they should be balanced out. They are an important part of Jackson's life however so is the music. :: ehmjay 03:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The controversies should be listed, but not too long. It gets boring and most of it is pretty much heresay anyway. Snowbound 12:24, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The controversies have by far surpassed and ended his music career, which is why he's bankrupt and living in exile.

I think what ehmjay says is right about people will claim POV is being used. However, personally I think Jackson had a great music career, and this should be described in great detail, but the controversies have indeed changed the way we view this man. I think his controversies have sadly overshadowed and blighted a great career.Littlepaulscholes 23:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Steverino. I think there should be more rigour and accuracy in the redaction of this article pretending for wikipedia (remember that it can be viewed by millions of people!). And it is nice to adorn the text with references, but they should be used more precisely, as for example in the case of the videoclip Black or White:

In November 1991, Michael Jackson released Dangerous. The major hit from Dangerous was "Black or White". The single was accompanied by a controversial video which featured scenes of a sexual nature as well as violence and racism. The video was banned on most music-television channels until these scenes were removed.[31]

Personally I think this redaction leads to negative misunderstanding. If you go to reference [31], you will find a text stating that the controverse arised from the somewhat violent and sexual scenes in the videoclip, as anyone would also slightly agree to by watching them. However in the article for wikipedia, these aspects are undelicately juxtaposed with "racism".

Another example of unprecision or lack of information leading to prejudice is the description of the whitening of the skin of Michael Jackson. Where can the reader find in the corresponding paragraph (see "1987-1990: Bad and controversies"...) a reference to the official claim by Michael Jackson that he is affected by the vitiligo? This skin condition affects at least one in every hundred people in countries throughout the world Vitiligo Society UK. There are also some photos of Michael Jackson in the 80's-90's where his hands appear with the typical heterogen brown patches on white skin.

Finally the article focuses too much not only on controversial "facts", but also on financial aspects. As far as I know, Michael Jackson is a recognized musician and a person with humanitarian thoughts and actions, even if these aspects are not covered by some parts of the media. I wish the redactor to take more care in this article. 83.59.24.28 16:55, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Inclusion of nicknames

King of Pop

I believe that there should be a reference in the starting sentence of the article to Jackson's fan name "The King of Pop". I THINK that this has been discussed before, but that was a LONG time ago and I wasn't involved in that. Below I will provide evidence as to why I believe a reference should be added.

1) Other articles with common media/fan-dubbed names:

• Elvis Presley has an extensive 17 words explaining various naming conventions
• Steve McQueen's nickname 'The King of Cool' is given

2) When you type "King of Pop" into Google, the first FIFTEEN hits (the entire first page and half the second) solely relate to Michael Jackson, proving that this nickname is in no way 'unused' or 'rare', but is in fact very much alive and well.

3) In front of THOUSANDS of fans in Tokyo, Michael Jackson is not only named the 'King of Pop', but also the 'King of Pop, Rock and Soul'. Here's the link [1]

4) On CNN.com, when "The King of Pop" is typed into search under a Cnn.com search, there are more than 50 pages related to Michael Jackson directly. The link is here, [2], and it proves that "The King of Pop" is a label still used by the INTERNATIONAL MEDIA when discussing Jackson, and it is used quite frequently. This is no minority fan name. This is a name that is wide spread.

5) In terms of foreign language wikipedias, the following have the nickname 'The King of Pop' in the introduction (I'll put the links here so that you all don't accuse me of lying):

• Spanish Wikipedia [3]
• French Wikipedia [4]
• German Wikipedia [5]
• Swedish Wikipedia [6]

The 2nd largest language by distribution in the world, French, gives the nickname. German, also a widespread language, gives the nickname. Spanish, still widely spoken in Mediterranean areas as well as foreign communities, gives the nickname. And Swedish Wikipedia, a language abundant in the Nordic countries and Scandinavia, gives the nickname. Obviously it is widespread. If anyone thinks it is not, look at the proof (use Bable Fish Translation if unsure of the languages).

I will be adding more evidence as time passes, as I'm sure many here will be quick to crucify my opinions. --Paaerduag 10:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I swear this page is going back to like it was back in november 2004.--I'll bring the food 20:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Can people just stop digging their noses in the past and actually bother to read the evidence, not just blatantly accuse me of stirring up trouble? Read the evidence at LEAST, for God's sake. It is really quite clever what some people here are doing; they are refusing to even COMMENT on this post, therefore making me unable to change ANYTHING, and therefore keeping the nick name out of the title. Clever, but unless you can tell me why we shouldn't have the title in here WITH ALL THE EVIDENCE I HAVE PROVIDED, I don't see why I shouldn't just put it in. --Paaerduag 02:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you reach consensus first before overriding an already agreed consensus. As it already stands it was decided to remove BOTH well used nicknames, ie. King of Pop and Wacko Jacko. If you want to re-add one, you will have to be prepared to add the other as AGREED by consensus of all involved parties in this artcle. I have removed KOP until such time a FRESH consensus is agreed, this is per Wikipedia policy. -- Funky Monkey  (talk)  08:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Ditto Funky Monkey. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 01:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Funky Monkey, I agree we should wait until there is a concensus before we add it into the article, but Paaerduag does make some good points. Perhaps it's time we discuss it again? After all, that is the point of this discussion section. :: ehmjay 10:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Both nicknames by which he has been known are fully covered in the article. Frankly, putting KoP in the lead 'graph only serves, it seems to me, to make the days in which it was apt seem very long ago indeed. Robertissimo 10:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

It is absolutely fine to discuss this issue, but it is absolutely not fine for Paaerduag to try to independently overrule the consensus and insert words which have been very contentious and were removed after an agreement was reached during a very, very long debate. Paaerduag needs to negotiate a new consensus if he wants to put the nicknames back in, instead of acting on his own and ignoring the existing one. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 11:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree Sarah. I hadn't realized he had gone and made any changes - which I agree was not a good idea to do before we had discussed it. Anyways - I agree that it is a change worth looking into - but not entirely needed. Either way, I'd love to discuss it (in a calm and reasonable manner).:: ehmjay 18:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, let me clear something up. I knew full well that what I was doing was wrong, and NOW I regret it in part. This is because people were simply ignoring my comments, and that is how they were effectively blocking my opinions (shared by others) out. This really frustrated me, and I apologize for my outburst. I hope that you don't hold that against me, because it was swiftly and justly reverted. Anyway, the consensus that was reached was that wacko jacko AND KoP would either both be kept or both gone. I was not aware of that until now, as I explained. Let me just say, if people are criticizing me for reopening this discussion, how can a 'consensus' ever be reached!? anyway, it is in my opinion that my next course of action is to justify why KING OF POP SHOULD STAY WHILE WACKO JACKO SHOULD NOT. I will gather evidence immediately, and add it shortly. --Paaerduag 12:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's my evidence (more will be added):

1) Not a SINGLE other-language wikipedia even MENTIONS the derogatory name Wacko Jacko, so why should it be in the introductory sentence. On the other hand, KoP is mentioned in the intro several times (read above evidence)

2) Wacko Jacko was NOT coined by the people; it was a product of media imagination, which in turn was adopted by Jackson-haters. My point, if you are wondering, is that if nicknames are truly popular shouldn't they be coined by PEOPLE? People who's jobs don't involve spinning stories, but who are ordinary and adopt a popular name. That is the case with King of Pop. It was popular, and like Elvis' 'King of Rock', was not the invention of the media. You may think this is stupid (in fact, i'm sure many here already loathe me), but I'm trying to make a point.

• Wacko Jacko = Media invention.
• King of Pop = Name given by the people, not influenced by the media and its spinning webs.

--Paaerduag 12:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

1. We aren't governed or even guided by what other wikis do.
2. Please prove that "the people" coined the term "King of Pop" and not "Wacko Jacko". And please explain the relevance of the origin of the terms. I don't think the origin of words determines their notability. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 12:27, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

One could have this argument indefinitely, and indeed I think a very good case could be made for exactly the reverse of Paaerduag's: "king of pop" is rather transparently a publicists' creation, one that the subject and his wranglers clung to long after it had become a faintly embarrassing reminder of better times (the photo of the star in his glory that leads off this article, after all, is more than 22 years old; older, in fact, than many of today's hitmakers). "Wacko Jacko," on the contrary, having gained currency in gossip columns and other popular media, would have faded away quickly if it had offended a substantial portion of their audience, and so might be considered as the actual "people's choice." Robertissimo 12:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

If one traces the origins of "King Of Pop", I beleive it was first used by Elizabeth Taylor when she introduced Michael Jackson at either an awards show or a performance. Now it's no secret that Taylor and Jackson are friends - however that does not mean it was coined by a publicist, nor does is mean it was coined by Taylor herself. Needles to say "Wacko Jacko" is still used, however usually by the mainstream media. I think the most compelling argument for using "King of Pop" is to look at a professional article from a reputable encyclopedia: Encyclopedia Brittanica. Here it mentions "King of Pop" and does not mention Wacko Jacko - while this is not in the introduction of the article it does give clout to the legitimacy of this name. Now, as for the image being shown on the page - that argument is moot. The reason that image is used it that it is Public Domain and the Wiki Rules state that if a public domain image exists, it must be used. There was a period where a photgraph of Jackson accepting his recent award in Japan was used. Personally I don't really care if the "King of Pop" is mentioned in the first paragraph since it is covered in the body of the article. I wouldn't mind seeing it there, however I also don't mind if it's not. I do however think that Wacko Jacko has no place in the opening paragraph whether KoP is there or not. That's just my opinion however. :: ehmjay 23:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

As I can't edit below I will confirm that in no possible was has Michael Jackson sold over 60- million copies of thriller. The Guinnes book of records says 48 million, while the most says 52 million. As Michael's biggest fan you must really want it to be true, but it's rubbish, sorry.

King Of Pop

I just visited the Elvis Presley article and "The King of Rock 'n' Roll", as well as "The King" were included in the opening paragraph.

I believe that those titles should be added to both the Madonna and Michael Jackson articles, not just Elvis. Madonna and Michael might have been called that less but they were called that very often throughout their entire careers. Often enough to be included. Israell 20:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Thriller sales

Worldwide sales of Thriller

I would like to know if this source confirming that Thriller has sold approximately 60 million copies is appropriate for the article. It is a news article from BBC here is the link.[7]--Stardust6000 02:41, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd say yes, to me BBC seems like a pretty credible source. However I'm sure others will argue No, and will want to continue to use the out of date, inaccurate Guinness number (let me remind everyone that Guinness is not always correct, seeing as they have the run-time of the Thriller video incorrect, and Jackson made 2 other videos that were longer than Thriller, yet it's still credited as the "Longest Music Video") :: ehmjay 15:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The BBC is fine to use as a source. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 22:00, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you both so much for your replies, I'll add this to the article now. Take care for now.--Stardust6000 00:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

This is getting silly, Thriller according to most sources I've read are somewhere around 50 million, these sources include actual recorded figures of album sales. BBC is hardly a reliable source for gathering record sales data, it is just a rough estimate. Lets stop exaggerating, Thriller sold so many it hardly seems worth exaggerating it more. 81.156.67.125 00:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well someone has already confirmed that BBC is a fine source. And most sources people use are the Guiness source - most people who reference are using it as their reference (be it any other articles). The fact is the guiness number is out of date and wrong. Stick with the BBC source. :: ehmjay 02:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The BBC are not only extremely reliable but their figure is also the most up-to-date.--Ashadeofgrey (Talk) 19:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

81.156.67.125: under our guidelines, the BBC is considered a reliable source and we may use it as a reference for verifiying information. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 14:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm only stating there are better sources which pay closer attention to the actual figures. BBC is just an estimate, it is in no way accurate. I suppose whatever I say it will stay there because people will want it to seem Thriller sold as many as possible. Most sites Ive read put the figure at around 50 million, I hardly think the album has sold another 10 million in the time before BBC wrote the article. Ehmjay, I have a great respect for the work you have done on this article as it has not been easy I imagine with all the vandalism but I feel your now including unaccurate information which is a shame.81.152.225.36 18:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

There is one link (BBC) that mentions 60m (excluding the MJ fansite), and all others, like Rock n Roll Hall of Fame, World Music Awards, specify 50m+. BBC is a credible source most of the time, but also can be a non-credible source also. They recently reported Boney M selling 800 million albums. What needs to happen is weight has to be given to articles on believability. As WMA is 2006, and MJ is attending, I would consider this far more reliable.

Here is an article from fox news that confirms Thriller has sold 60 million copies worldwide. As said before the 50 million sources are using the over a decade old Guinness estimate. I think that a news source is a better indication of sales than your opinion. This fox news sources is from this year.[8]--Stardust6000 14:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

POV has clouded judgement here. If the article by BBC was so fantastically accurate, why was there not a rush to amend 'downwards' Jacksons worldwide sales that were also mentioned. The arguement was that it was not a reliable source compared to more credible links. Wikipedia is supposedly based on factual information, not one-off inaccurate links. Nor are fan sites reliable as they push up figures. If I were to write a fan site on Sid Vicious and claim he said a trillion copies, does that make it right? No it says it's not credible. Also continually amending each wiki site with the data without any credible links was close to being vandelism Maggott2000 04:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Well your obviously a Jackson fan and are desperate to give him more credit, the thing that is annoying is I could find hundreds of recent references that say Thriller has sold around 50 million, but just because you have found a few links, the article is changed. Its funny because the article on the biggest selling albums of all time on wikipedia even says its 50 million. This supposed to be an encyclopedia, therefore you should use the most reliable sources, BBC is not official record of the sales, you really think BBC have done serious recording of thriller's record sales to write this article? Alaka 18:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

New Stats for Thriller Sales...

So Jackson has just been presented with a new certificate from the Guiness World Records... from a recent news update: "Michael received was a certificate for greatest selling album ever. The certificate itself (pictured right, click to enlarge) states the album has sold over a staggering 104 million albums worldwide since its 1982 release." So I guess that 60 million is slightly off? Should it be updated to reflect this rather LARGE number? :: ehmjay 23:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes (if you can source it) from me, and DenisRS also mentioned this but I haven't seen the source--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 00:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Please can you source this ASAP as this is impacting other pages mentioning Thriller too. There is no reference via Google nor the GWR homepage.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Maggott2000 (talk • contribs)

As of right now the only sites I can find that cite this information are MJ fan sites, however I have a feeling that the Guiness site has yet to be updated...and seeing that the diamond awards are tomorrow I have a feeling we will get more sites with this info after tomorrow. In the meantime MJNI and MJSTAR (Which cites Guiness as it's source) :: ehmjay 03:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's a video of a News Clip discussing it :: ehmjay 22:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't specifically say that he's sold 104 million copies of Thriller...and neither does MJStar.co.uk--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 22:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

As mentioned above, there is no credible information that Thriller has sold 60m, yet it is kept being pushed up to this figure. The BBC article was July 2005, a few years after reaching 50m (2002). How can this be substantiated as 'fact' if one report says it. Please keep to credible stats.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Maggott2000 (talk • contribs)

It is official now, I checked the guiness website, but it's weird, I can't find anything there now, but here's a link to some pic of the certificates Pics of 104 million certificateScroll down a bit and you'll see. Aeneiden-Rex 14:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It's here--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 15:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

We can't source to a picture, though. We should probably wait a while for a News source.--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 16:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we definitely need to wait until we have a reliable source. The image is not a reliable source. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 16:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

MJ, said 104 million at the WMAs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4w3ZY3PahA).--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 13:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

MTV UK--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 01:44, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Another MTV link that shows Thriller's 104 million units sold [9] We can go for it now. Readerweb 19:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

OMG In the photo of him holding the awards you see spots on under his finger nails. VITILIGO! It's practically proof. Can somebody sample that part of the image and upload it to changing appearance of michael jackson? It's definately fair use. It's like major PROOF!--I'll bring the food 00:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

New sales figures

Ugh guys, I know Michael Jackson claimed 104 million sold for Thriller recently, but this figure is highly dubious. Furthermore, Guinness does not corroborate that at all; I believe Guinness gives a figure of 51 million or something. Right now that's the most reliable number; the real figure may be something between 50 million and 60 million, but definitely not over 100 million.UberCryxic 22:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

no it's 104 million these days. Believe me, MTV vouches. We were also all rather blown back, given the fanboys were like "it's 60 million!!!!! not 50!!!!" but i think mtv vouches for the new figure.--I'll bring the food 21:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you give me the URL or something? I'm surprised by this new figure. How can the figure be 50-60 million one moment, then suddenly shoot to 100 million? Any explanation given for the change or something (by MTV or anyone)? Also, I think in this case there are better, more reliable sources than MTV (like Guinness, which says 51 million I believe). Either way I'd like a note about why MTV changed the numbers....and so radically too.UberCryxic 21:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I did a search on Factiva and I couldn't find a single article supporting the claim that it was over 100 million. There were heaps of articles about Jackson and the Guiness records but not a single one that supported that figure. I'd want to see some pretty solid evidence before I bought it. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 21:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

He told the squealing audience, "I am greatly humbled by this award. When we created 'Thriller' my dream was for it to be the biggest selling album ever, and God has answered my prayers - 25 years later and it's sold 104 million copies. I thank God and I thank you." from [10] - good enough for me. --I'll bring the food 00:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't find an article written like a blog and containing the words "Well done, dude..." a very credible source to use as our only reference. I would be happier if we could find newspaper reports. Surely a figure that high would have been reported in the mainstream press. I don't think it should be that hard to come up with some decent sources to support that information and I think it's important that we do find some solid sources because this is obviously something that is going to be contested. Even if we accept that article, it seems that the source of this information is Michael himself. Like UberCryxic, I would like to see some independent and reliable verification of this and not just a quote from Michael. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 00:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes we're all well aware of the Michael Jackson quote. It's just not reliable. That's all I'm saying. Furthermore, there are a bonanza of other good sources that contradict MJ; these give something like 50 to 60 million.UberCryxic 01:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that Jackson may not be the most credible source, most of those sources have not been updated in years. As I posted a while back, a Press Release from MJNI (I'm awear its a fan news network...) stated the 104 million copies number before jackson made his speech. I'm not sure if it can count as a source, but it did say it. According to this source the certificate from Guiness states the 104 million copies number. [11] :: ehmjay 02:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

104 Million Thrillers

I just watched the World Music Awards broadcast, and it mentions at least twice that Thriller has sold at least 104 million copies... I know that the number in the article is 104 million but this should help silence all those naysayers. :: ehmjay 03:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

ehmjay, we're not saying this did not happen, I know it happened. Its just annoying the fact that this article is so exaggerated. It seems like the sources used are those with the highest numbers, 90% of sources will say thriller sold 50-60 million, yet the source with the biggest total is used. It seems very exaggerated when you consider its not even the biggest selling album in america, yet it has apparently outsold the second biggest selling album by about 2 and a half. I know Thriller sold a lot and is probably is the biggest selling album ever, yet the figure of 104 million (when you consider some of the biggest rock bands in the world have sold this amount in total) is hard to believe. I and many others believe is inaccurate. However, this is no dig at you emhjay, its jusy my opinion. Your doing a good job with this frequently vandalised article, keep it up!

81.154.118.146 02:40, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

It's okay - it just gets really frusterating when we have certain people just go back and change the number to what was clearly an extremely out of date Guiness Entry. I'll agree, 104 million does seem very high, but it also seems so high that they wouldn't just make it up...and Guiness didn't call them on it so it's gotta be fairly close. Either way, I just wanted to make sure that another source could be called upon. No hard feelings towards anyone in particular. :: ehmjay 05:07, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

How come there is no information here about the alleged racism of MTV towards black musicians in the early days. And that it was allegedly the president of CBS records (Columbia?) who threatened MTV to either play Michael's videos from the Thriller album or else he would pull the companies' entire library. That is why he was the first black performer on MTV. Anyone?142.46.72.254 19:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The figure for Thriller is too high. It shouldn't be quoted as the solid be all and end figure and a more NPOV (explaning where this number comes from and what other sopurces say) should be included in the text. If Thriller sold 104 million in total, it would still be all over the charts today. 74.65.39.59 12:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Thriller has sold 51 million copies worldwide as of 2007.

White Tape?

Does anyone know the reason he wears white tape on the end of some of his fingers? I cant find out anywhere!

To highlight the movements of his fingers when he's dancing. Similiar to the reasons why he wears the single glove and white socks. Street walker 08:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

No, I've heard that it's it symbolizes the sick & the suffering.

No, that's his armband. He said he will wear the armband as long as there are children suffering in the world. Street walker 09:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Sales figures

!04 Millions... doesn´t this look a bit high?, i mean, a few weeks ago it was around the 50-60 and now it has doubled. The only country that keeps a reliable count of the record sales is the US and it has sold 27 millions there . There is pretty good correlation between the records sold in america and the records sold worldwide:

Back in Black US: 21 Worldwide 42. x2

Eagles Greatest hits US: 29 Worldwide: 51 x1.8

Led Zeppelin IV US: 23 Worldwide: ~ 35 x1.5

Shania Twain Come on Over US: 20 Worldwide: 28 x1.4

Appetite for Destruction

US: 15 Worldwide: +25 x +1.7

... Baby one more time US: 15 worldwide: 28 x 1.9

The Dark Side Of The Moon US: 15 Worldwide 40+ x 2-3

(I have avoided using double albums)

Thriller US: 27 Worldwide 104 x 3.8

Hard to believe but possible, but what is almost impossible to believe is

He has only sold 60.5 in the US and his PR claims 750 millions more that 12 times... 83.33.246.250 02:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC) i belive he is the second biggest selling artist behind the beatles lets leave is at that. so what america is not the world,

Good research. Emphasis on the word 'claims'. However, his PR must have got the figure from 'somewhere' one assumes. I like the logical thought put into your discussion.60.234.242.196 01:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

"Somehwhere" could be their own hype. PR is public relations. They are there to promote. Where else do you think hype comes from? 74.65.39.59

Sorry, we can't use original research on Wikipedia.--Ashadeofgrey^Talk 09:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

This article needs revising

What should be the birth name and what should be the also known as?

BMI [12] and a court document [13] indicated Michael Joe Jackson. Israell 08:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this article is extremely unbalanced. It focuses more on the last 5 years of Michael Jackson's life, when he has been in the music industry for 42yrs. The article gives no indication as to why he is a superstar, or why he is known as the "king of pop". The article does not discuss how he dominated the music industry in the 80's and early 90's, and has inspired a whole generation of new artists. There are also several inaccuracies, and quite a lot of information seems to have been obtained from tabloids. 1. Debbie Rowe voluntarily gave up her parental rights to their 2 children. She actually requested that this happen. Transcripts of this case are available elsewhere. At the time that she made this request, she was quoted to have said "I had these children for him. They are his kids, not mine. Being a parent is something you earn. I have not done anything to earn it". She also said that she felt like an intrusion to the children's lives.

2. The custody case between Michael Jackson and Debbie Rowe was settled in October 2006. 3. Michael Jackson has never confirmed that he joined Nation of Islam. I believe it is Jermaine Jackson who did that.

I feel that if wikipedia is to be taken seriously as a source of accurate information, then the articles should be based on facts and not hearsay or tidbits gathered from tabloid media.

Drleo

I agree. This wikipedia page on Michael Jackson does tend to focus on the last 5yrs of Michael Jackson's life. A lot of it such as alledged bankcrupty, which haven't been confirmed by Michael Jackson are nothing more than tabloid rumours, yet wikipedia have stated them as fact. The Michael Jackson page is a complete mess, and doesn't really focus on what a an innovative artist and cultural icon Michael Jackson is. The fact it only lists Michael Jackson the King of Pop as just an R&B artist shows what a mess the information is on Michael Jackson. Wikipedia obviously has no respect for Michael Jackson, and his fans opinions.

Main picture

Is this a good picture for an encyclopedia?

Is it just me, or is that "photoshopped" cut-out version of Jackson that's currently being used as the main picture for the article just a bit too stylized (and out of date) for an encyclopedia? A background-less image is something I'd expect for an article on Socrates or Junipers, but not for a bio article. I say save the alpha-channelling for promotional materials. Is there a more appropriate picture we could use? (Given, it's a tough call, does one use an image of him as a black man, a white man, or a white woman?) - Eric 06:09, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Genre of Michael Jackson's music

The genre of Michael Jackson's music on Wikipedia has only been listed as R&B, and this is highly inaccurate.

To only list the music of Michael Jackson as R&B gives a very limited view of the wide variety of genres Michael Jackson creates and records. Michael Jackson's main genre is Pop (ie he's the King of Pop, not the King of R&B), but the Michael Jackson genre's are also R&B, Rock, Dance and Gosbel.

I find it hard to believe how anybody could think songs Michael Jackson has written such as Beat It, Black Or White, Dirty Diana, Speed Demon, Black Or White, Give In To Me, They Don't Care About Us, D.S and Morphine are R&B when they are all rock based songs. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ben Scarr (talk • contribs) 18:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

Beat It is a pop/rock/R&B blend, that's what made it so popular and unique. Black or White is pop/rock. Dirty Diana is rock/R&B blend, similiar to Beat It but with the pop elements. Speed Demon is definately rock, closer to funk than anything. You listed Black or White twice. Give in to Me is probably his only rock song. They Don't Care About us is so unique that it can't really be classified. But it's definately not rock. It's closer to pop. D.S. is like Black or White, it's pop/rock. Morphine is sort of an industrial/dance song. He's made very few strictly rock songs. Pretty much everything he does has R&B elements, so that why the best genre to class him as is R&B. Street walker 13:19, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

It's wrong and highly inaccurate to class Michael Jackson as just an R&B artist.

Sure elements of R&B are always in Michael Jackson's music, but the fact is Michael Jackson is the King of Pop not the King of R&B, and as song for example like Speed Demon has no funk elements to it at all it's a straight out Pop/Rock song. What's made Michael Jackson a one of the greatest innovators in music is his ability to blend elments of different genres together to create his own unique sound.

Michael Jackson is listed as a Pop Music Artist on Wikipedia's page about the History of Pop music http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music#2000s. If Michael Jackson was purely an R&B artist he wouldn't be on the list. I think it's highly offensive to the legacy of Michael Jackson just to classify him as an R&B artist as this gives a very narrow/limited view of Michael Jackson as an artist. Classing Michael Jackson as just an R&B artist fails to acknowledge that Michael Jackson completly raised the bar in Pop Music.

Even Michael Jackson's brother Jermaine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jermaine_Jacksonis listed as Soul/Funk and Dance and he hasn't made music in as many genres of Michael Jackson. Also Janet Jackson is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Jackson listed as a R&B/ Pop/ Dance/ Soul/ Rock, and she's wrote and record less than 3 Rock songs, or songs with Rock elements in them, than Michael Jackson.

Another thing is that Michael Jackson's vocal style is rooted as a Soul singer, but he's one of the few vocalist's than can also sing pure pop and rock music with ease. Also another thing that very few people acknowledge is that Michael Jackson's vocals and muscial compositions are also hughly influenced/fused by Jazz music which has been pointed out by Michael ex producer Quincy Jones. Michael Jackson scope as creative artist is hugh, an he's not an artist that should be boxed in just one genre.

The fact is Michael Jackson is a Pop/R&B/Soul/Dance/Rock artist, anyone who say's he's not doesn't know anything about the music of Michael Jackson. I don't care what order these are written in, but it has to be acknowledge that Michael Jackson isn't just an R&B artist, there for it's wrong to say it's best to class him as an R&B artist. This has to be changed !

Ok, well here's my justification as to why it should be just R&B:

• Firstly, the source clearly states MJs genre as specifically R&B, as do a number of other sources
• Pop Music is a vague term which can describe any music which is popular. Jackson was popular hence he was included on the list
• Just because one can baken cookies doesn't make them a baker, so just because he can write and perform songs of varying styles doesn't make the genres of the artist he is

--Ashadeofgrey^Talk 08:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

And, sorry for not contributing to this discussion before.--Ashadeofgrey^Talk 08:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, how other pages are formatted don't necessarily justify how another page should be formatted, it may just be that no-one has brought up the point that listening to music and thinking it has a "rock" feel (which is agains WP:OR) doesn't mean that the person is a rock artist.--Ashadeofgrey^Talk 08:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

"Speed Demon" has no funk elements? What the hell are you listenting to? The song is straight out, nitty-gritty funk. 59.100.26.70 06:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia have took notice of the vaild points as to why I rightly felt R&B gave limited view of the music of Michael Jackson, And the music genre's of Michael Jackson are now Pop/R&B on Wikipedia. Pop music has always been an element of Michael's music since The Jackson 5 days of there early 1970's. Michael Jackson does play about different genres of music and he's known as the King of Pop for nothing. Also I've always said the roots of Michael Jackson are R&B/Soul, but that doesn't mean it's the only genre of music Michael Jackson makes.

Speed Demon is a straight out pop/rock song, not a funk song. I know funk music when I hear it.

In music shops like Virgin and HMV you will find the all of Michael Jackson's albums in both Rock/Pop and R&B sections of their shops. Also Michael Jackson's genre of music is often boxed as Pop or Pop/R&B in many profiles of his. Very few Michael Jackson profiles have classified him as just an R&B artist, and even AOL have classified Michael Jackson as Funk/Soul/Urban artist, which though not 100% accurate is far less misleading than classiing Michael as purely an R&B artist.

I would have complalined if Michael's genre of music was just Pop music, because Michael has an ability the sing and write songs of different genre's, and this should be acknowledged. And though I think Michael profile should be Pop/Soul/R&B/Rock, I pleased with Pop/R&B as Michael's genre of music on Wikipedia. I actually think Michael Jackson is his own genre, as no one sounds like Michael Jackson as his sound is unique.

I will just say you are very wrong in saying "Speed Demon" is not funk. I am a funk musician, I study the musical style, this is definately FUNK! Anyway, I think Michael Jackson genre should be pop/rock/soul because that covers everything he does and Elizabeth Taylor called him the king of pop, rock and soul. Street walker 04:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Occupation

Michael Jackson's career has been listed as Singer-songwriter, Record Producer, Arranger and Actor. But Michael Jackson is also a dancer and choreographer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ben Scarr (talk • contribs) 18:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

What is he doing now, does he still work? 66.246.72.108 22:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Right now he's working as a recording artist, record producer, songwriter and arranger. I dare say that after the new album comes out in fall (Northen Hemisphere), he will also be a dancer, choreographer and performer. Street walker 13:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Michael Jackson is always a dancer, choreographer and performer even when he's just recording as it's part of what he does, therefore it should be listed. Tom Cruise an actor, it doesn't mean he's no longer an actor when he's producing a film.

Record Labels

Michael Jackson's record labels are stated as Motown (1968–1976), Sony (1977-2000), Epic (2001–2006). This isn't accurate.

Epic Records is a label of Sony, and Michael Jackson was signed to Sony's Epic label from 1976-2006, as The Jacksons releaesed their self-titled album in 1976. When Michael Jackson signed with Sony/Epic (the CBS/Epic, as Sony bought CBS in 1990-91) in 1976, as part of Th Jacksons, he also signed a contract for an option for record a solo album.

So Michael Jackson's record labels shoud be ......

Motown (1968-1976) Sony/Epic (1976-2006) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ben Scarr (talk • contribs) 11:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC).

Too much info about 2006

I think there was way too much info about 2006-current. That's why I divided it up into 2006 and 2007. But there is still a helluva lot of stuff about 2006. Most it is just trivial news stories. I'm sure all of that can be shortened to a couple of paragraphs. Stuff that struck me was how much info there is about the founding of his own company and the WMA's. That sort of stuff should be in seperate articles about the Michael Jackson companu and the 2006 World Music Awards. I'll try, but I need some people to help me cut down the section on 2006. Street walker 16:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Jackson's picture during his arrest

Hi, I do not want to engage in any kind of dispute! But my feelings consider this picture as an offending picture which dose not represent Michael Jackson under any circumstances and whomever insist on including this picture is considered a human with bad intentions toward Michael himself or toward Michael's fans.

Please do not include this picture any more because it is very offending for the feelings of those who care about Michael so please show some respect.

This picture is not any more acceptable and will be treated with serious actions

This picture dose not add any kind of benifit for any kind of reader from around the World nor it dose provide any kind of benifit to the article itself, all other articles about Michael and in every other langauge, this picture is not tolerated

Please show some respect

Thanks

--3dola 03:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The picture you want to replace it with is unlicensed and hence wikipedia cannot use it. Sorry.--Ashadeofgrey^Talk 08:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

--Ashadeofgrey 08:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your correction and hence this picture is very offending to alot of people around the world and hence this picture will not cause except controversy and disputes it should be deleted completely till we find another picture which is appropriate and acceptable by all different kind of parties and at the same time licensed The license alone is not a logical reason nor it is an enough reason to keep publishing such a picture, there is no other reason of keeping this picture except insisting on offending people and Michael himself and that is why this picture should do not be here Because of all these reasons and respecting for you and for all the fans and respecting for all people who get interested reading about Michael and avoiding for any kind of controversy and respecting for Wikipedia rules I will delete both pictures until we reach an agreement on another licensed picture

Thanks --3dola 19:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the photo is awful, and I don't see a pressing need to have a thirteen, rather than twelve, images in an article, if the thirteenth image upsets some people and isn't essential. However, I'm wondering do we really need to have ten fair use images in the article. It looks bad if we're taking out free ones because they don't look nice enough, and leaving in unfree ones.

Fair Use Policy no. 8 says

The material must contribute significantly to the article (e.g. identify the subject of an article, or specifically illustrate relevant points or sections within the text) and must not serve a purely decorative purpose.

And no. 9 says:

it is the policy of the Wikimedia Foundation to allow an unfree image . . . only if it significantly improves the article it is included on. All other uses, even if legal under the fair use clauses of copyright law, should be avoided to keep the use of unfree images to a minimum.

Do we need to have so many photos of his albums, for example? It seems that they're more "decorative" than useful. ElinorD 00:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I think this is one of the better biographies on Wikipedia, and all the photos only add to it. Beyond being well researched and well written, it's beautifully laid out. Clearly, a great deal of attention has gone into presentation, which makes the article visually appealing.

I, personally, couldn't care one way or another which photo goes in that section, but I think pictures only add to the article. For me - the more the merrier! LOL Cleo123 01:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure, but the problem is that according to Wikipedia policy, unfree images are not meant to be used to make an article look better, but to contribute significantly towards giving the reader a better understanding of the subject. So having lots and lots of unfree images, just to make the article look better, would be going against the policy. ElinorD 18:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia seems to care about people feelings and it dose not have a heart of a rock, look what it says "be polite" "assume good faith" "no personal attacks" ...etc, this means that the encyclopedia has something to do with a prober way of communications, and hence this picture is not making alot of readers feel comfortable so there is no good reason to include it, deleting this picture will not harm this nice article in anyway but it could make it more appealing for some people

There are thousands of pictures for Michael which can fit in many places in this article but though they are not included and although they are not included this did not harm the article in anyway, and if we are going to consider that this picture is one from between thousands of pictures which are not included this also will not harm this beautifuly laid out article

If a reader is reading this part without seeing this picture this would not cause any loss of his enjoyment of the article, all articles in other languges do not include this picture except the English version, and this picture is adding nothing good and unique to this article except offending those people who care about Michael, so why insisting on doing that I have no idea

I hope the members will consider deleting this picture because it adds nothing good to this good looking article

Thanks --3dola 03:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Very unbalanced article

100 years from now, if someone asks, "Who's Michael Jackson", the answer would be "He was a musician".

So I believe, that the weight of this article should be to describe Michael Jackson's musical career. It is pathetic that this man's amazing musical career of 25 years before the allegations, is summarised in a few concise sentences, and a huge paragraph has been devoted to explaining the gory details of the next 15 years.

Of course, the controversies surrounding the trial should be mentioned, as long as the facts are stated first. Speculation & rumour should be mentioned, and it should be made clear that they are indeed speculation. But if the controversy and the negative image is to be included, then it is only fair to include the many years of public adoration as well.

The vitiligo problem has not been mentioned at all, when this is the reason given for his colour change. There are numerous photos available, where you can very clearly see that he does indeed suffer from a skin disorder. Why has this not been mentioned??

I feel that this is one of the worst Wikipedia articles. Totally biased and just running with the current media attitude towards this man. You don't even have to be a fan to see it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Drleo35 (talk • contribs) 16:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

I agree, mostly anyway. The main problem I have with this article is not the extent to which it covers MJ's personal life, which, because it was so controversial, certainly deserves more than just passing mention, but the failure to highlight just what a legend MJ was musically. He's obviously been the most influential solo artist in the world since Elvis, and probably has no equals in the history of music when it comes to pure performance and entertainment, but language like this is apparently prohibited because it would ruin the NPOV of the article, even though those statements, while POV somewhat, are still, well, largely true. I don't remember where I read it, but at one point MJ was the most recognized person in the world, above US presidents and UN secretary-generals, and that was because of his music, not his personal life. You're right; 100 years from now, people will remember Thriller, not Gavin Arvizo.UberCryxic 16:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I TOTALLY AGREE MJ IS THE FINEST MUSICIAN ILL PUT HIM IN TOP 5 WITH WONDER, JAMES BROWN, BEATLES AND PRINCE. ELVIS, SINATRA, STONES AND MADONNA ARE GARBAGE SORRY!!

Not that this matters to the article, but MJ and Elvis are probably the greatest solo performers ever. As for "musicians," then your list is very restricted. I would say some of the greatest musicians ever are the likes of Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach, along with people like MJ, Elvis, and the Beatles. Unfortunately, all our lists will be Western-centric, doing no justice to the rich musical variety around the world.UberCryxic 04:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Proof Of Michael Jacksons Innocence

I would like you to include this video in the text. It's very important in order to spell out his innocence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2V5bDIlUFI —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.182.111.109 (talk) 09:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

Well, to me it's obvious that MJ did not do it, but I doubt that this counts as proof. This was kind of like an extortion attempt, yes, but MJ could still have molested the kid. Again, I don't think he did, but he could have.UberCryxic 16:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with change...

A few months ago, I wanted to include the "King of Pop" sobriquet in the lead, given how widespread it is in popular culture. My additions were opposed because they were viewed as violating the neutrality of the article and because they were thought to open up a can of worms (ie. should we also include 'Wacko Jacko' and other demeaning names?). Well, I'm back to tackle the issue. I was informed then that no nicknames were allowed in the lead based on a prior decision by the community. I perfectly understand that, although I disagree with the conclusion reached, hence why I'm "reopening" the case, if you will. I merely want for us to reconsider that decision and to examine some reasons for why we should or should not include the "King of Pop" in the lead as opposed to other references for Michael Jackson. At this point I am merely looking for a conversation, although eventually I would like to see some executive action reminiscent of Rousseau's general will. Anyway, let me offer some suggestions for why KOP should be included and Wacko Jacko should not:

1. This article has been written by trying to note a distinction between Michael Jackson's personal life and his music career. In that sense, it is trying to balance the two. Unfortunately, it covers Michael Jackson's personal life in far more too detail than is necessary. I actually mean something concrete by this: it does not represent a global viewpoint, literally. It may represent an overly American viewpoint. In the United States, Michael Jackson's popularity has declined since the 1980s and early 1990s, but internationally he is still quite popular. In fact, internationally, most people still recognize Michael Jackson based on his musical accomplishments, not what he may have done in his private life. How does this relate to the nickname? Well, that nickname is really being excised from the lead because it violates an American requirement on NPOV, not a global one. However, Wikipedia requires the latter.

2. The name 'Wacko Jacko' is a term mostly restricted to British media. The odd thing about this fact is that Michael Jackson is very popular in Britain itself, as evidenced by the success of "Number Ones," which sold better across than pond than here and did superbly on the charts. The range of use of 'Wacko Jacko' clearly pales in comparison with KOP. It seems that, in trying to offer all relevant viewpoints, we are actually snuffing out the main one: Michael Jackson is better known as KOP rather than 'Wacko Jacko.' Wacko Jacko should not be included in the lead because, although it is a nickname for Michael Jackson, it is not a relevant one. We are supposed to give majority opinion due weight, and it seems that we are confusing the fact that even people who don't like Michael Jackson still consider him as the KOP. That is, there is no connection between wanting to present all major viewpoints and striking out KOP from the lead. Even those who are critical of Michael Jackson still know the KOP label, and I would presume that they recognize it is far more prominent and widespread than Wacko Jacko, even though they may not agree with all the connotations of the label.

3. Recentism is a big issue for many Wikipedia articles, this one primary among them. No doubt many people's perceptions and ideas about Michael Jackson took some sort of concrete form during the trial period, and Wikipedia "necessarily" had to include these, but the great thing about perceptions, especially flimsy ones such as these, is that they change. As someone stated before, in 100 years Michael Jackson will mostly be remembered for his music, not for his personal life (this will be true by virtue of his international status that I highlighted above). In 100 years, if Wikipedia is around for that long, and it will be because it's so damn awesome, this article will look very different. Now, I'm not suggesting that we be 100 years avant garde, but I am suggesting that we take the first step, and including KOP in the lead would be a very good first step.

Anyway, thank you for listening. Let's have a good, clean discussion on this and see if some actual changes can materialize. Eventually we might have a vote or something, but for right now let's just see where people fall on this issue.UberCryxic 00:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Both or nothing for the sake of neutrality.  Funky Monkey  (talk)  03:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

See, you are framing this as if it were an issue about neutrality, but it isn't. It's one of recognition. By putting KOP in the lead, we are merely acknowledging that as the nickname with which most people recognize Michael Jackson. Wacko Jacko, as I said, is restricted mostly to the British media and has nowhere near the same "carrying capacity" (ie fame) as KOP.UberCryxic 03:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, you addressed none of my arguments above, particularly the most important one relating to viewpoint (and how currently the refusal to include KOP in the lead is more American-centric than anything else).UberCryxic 03:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I think in the section "2006: Visionary, Tokyo and the World Music Awards," there is an error.

"First Entertainer to Earn More Than 100 million Dollars in a Year", "Highest Paid Entertainer of All Time" ($125 in 1989)

Shouldn't the $125 be $125 million?

Well.......does someone have thoughts on this??? If not, I can go on right ahead and put the nickname in! So if there are people who don't want me to do that, say something.UberCryxic 22:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

FM has already answered you. That means 1 for, 1 against. That's not anything near a consensus for you to add it back in. Until a new consensus is formed, the current one stands. Sarah 09:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

None or both for reasons discussed ad nauseum in the archives. Sarah 09:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Well there is no time limit, so saying "no consensus, status quo remains" implies the discussion is over or something. I'm sure plenty of people will comment eventually. Again, this isn't an issue of "1 for, 1 against." Putting KOP in the lead is not "1 for" and does not take a stand on Michael's personal issues or anything. We're not even saying that he is the KOP, but merely acknowledging that he's called that by a lot of people (much more than the other nickname).UberCryxic 13:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I also do not appreciate the snide tone of the remarks, nor the hasty manner in which this is being pushed under the rug. Honestly, you all have to realize that eventually the KOP label will be included in the lead. It's just a matter of how much time passes from t=0 (ie. 2005 in this context) before people forget enough of MJ's personal life that they'll return to the music. Also, again, the American-centric viewpoint. Wikipedia requires a global viewpoint, and most globally do not really care about Michael Jackson's personal life.UberCryxic 13:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Just to emphasize my point regarding recognition, although I feel like it doesn't need to be because it's so obvious, a google search for 'Wacko Jacko' returned about 500,000 results ([14]) and one for 'King of Pop' returned 42 million ([15]). I do not want to state or imply that Google is an authoritative matter on such issues all the time, but it is often indicative when it comes to pop culture. Also, the results pretty much all related to Michael Jackson. The point is that Jackson is overwhelmingly known as the King of Pop, so that's the nickname that should be in the lead.UberCryxic 16:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

What if something were written like "Jackson is oft regarded as the King of Pop due to his [groundbreaking music or fame or whatever]"? This would be kind of like Elvis, where it's undeniable who the King of Pop is. This would also not establish it as a nickname, but more of a status. "Wacko Jacko" is not a nickname due to the iconic music, but rather due to an event. Wacko Jacko is also colloquial (it states it's used mainly in Britain, and I've never heard it), and could be seen as a neologism, which should be avoided. --MPD ^{T / C} 18:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

On this so-called "consensus"

I have reviewed everything regarding the decisions made on this issue. Ignoring the confused statements of some editors back then, many of which are not even here anymore, but some which still are, a warning should be given on the amazingly duplicitous nature of the straw poll that adjudicated this matter. The straw poll, which you can see here, was created by a user named Manboobies, who apparently no longer participates in Wikipedia. Anyway, that's irrelevant, but what is relevant is his or her maneuvering, which smacks of trickery.

What do I mean? First of all, although it may not have been an established rule back then (I don't know), users usually should agree what authority the straw poll has and what it is deciding, all of this before the straw poll actually happens. This user, however, took the initiative and opened the poll on his or her own terms. This is what users were deciding on, which, again, was completely established by this sole user: "Please vote below whether you would like to keep or remove the words "Wacko Jacko" in the lead, if you vote for their removal, "King of Pop" would also be removed for brevity." This particular user voted "keep," and from the bias in the original statement, you can easily tell why. Notice how silly this requirement is: if you vote to remove Wacko Jacko from the lead, you're also de facto voting to remove King of Pop. Some users explicitly clarified what they meant by their vote, which the initial conditions did not allow for, but most did not. So the poll was skewed towards favoring Wacko Jacko, which would either be kept or removed, but if it was removed, then it would take down King of Pop along with it automatically. Also, what the hell, pardon my language, does "for brevity" mean? This is not an issue that should be concluded under the impulse of "brevity." Issues of NPOV are being discussed right now, but this user apparently did not use that language; he or she was apparently more concerned with "brevity," which I find odd if it accurately describes his or her ontological position, which is not that clear anyway. But that precise uncertainty makes this straw poll bogus; there was little to no thought given to making it and it's understandable why: it was made completely by one person that originally established conditions unfavorable to Michael Jackson.UberCryxic 17:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I too feel that the "King of Pop" tag is worthy of being included, however its clear that its an issue that does not want to be discussed. I agree that eventually it will be there... we'll just have to keep waiting.

It's completely inappropriate that we have to keep waiting though, especially in light of the botched efforts above. The lead of the Japanese Wikipedia article on Michael Jackson, among many others, is not confused about his status ([16]):

マイケル・ジャクソン（Michael Joseph Jackson、1958年8月29日 - ）は、アメリカ合衆国インディアナ州ゲーリー市出身の男性ミュージシャン・歌手。身長176cm。エリザベス・テイラーがthe true king of pop, rock and soulと称し、一般的には短くKing of Popのニックネームで呼ばれている。イギリスのゴシップ誌からはGod of Popというニックネームをつけられている。

This is ridiculous, and yes POV is involved here, but it's the POV of the Anglophone world, most of which is American and has been skeptical of Michael Jackson ever since the trial (ie. the same people that screwed up the straw poll and reached this "consensus").UberCryxic 00:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Moving forward

Per my concerns above, relating to the fact that the previous straw poll was inappropriate, I think it is best if we start a new process for resolving this issue, one which will be more comprehensive and definitive. For this new straw poll, we are first going to do something that the previous one did not do: agree to what the poll is deciding before we start voting. This will ensure that everyone realizes what's at stake when they vote. We will just toss around some proposals in the beginning. If, after about a week or so, we are in agreement regarding the authority of the poll, then we can go ahead and start voting. My proposals are as follows:

• The straw poll should have executive authority based on plurality. This means that the choice that gets more votes than any other should be implemented.

• The straw poll should last for one week. The decision reached should be binding for four months, after which it can be reviewed and contested.

• Only the nicknames King of Pop and Wacko Jacko are under consideration, and they are only under consideration in the lead.

• The straw poll should give four options, which are the following:
  • KeepIN - This means that you want both King of Pop and Wacko Jacko in the lead.
  • KeepOUT - This means that you want both King of Pop and Wacko Jacko out of the lead.
  • KeepKOP - This means that you want only King of Pop in the lead.
  • KeepWACKO - This means that you want only Wacko Jacko in the lead.

So those are my ideas for now (I might come up with something else later). Please let me know what you think about this, and also offer your own thoughts! Thank you very much.UberCryxic 04:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

1993 song:watzupwitu

I think someone should write an article about the 1993 song with Eddie Murphy called watzupwitu, I have lots of information on the song. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.105.104.174 (talk) 11:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC).