Talk:Ship

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Design considerations section

The design considerations section seems out of place in this page... perhaps this information should be moved to the shipbuilding page?

Ship v. Boat

A ship is, generally, larger than a boat. Is this a controversial claim? Cruise ships, cargo ships, and military combat ships are all large (and ships), while kayaks, canoes, and yachts are considered boats and are significantly smaller. Power~enwiki (talk) 04:21, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

It's not a controversial claim, although what once was considered a ship might now be considered a boat. Additionally, the largest submarine is still considered a boat. The ship, USS Cole was carried aboard another ship, MV Blue Marlin after being damaged by bombing, still consistent with the maxim "a ship can carry a boat, but a boat cannot carry a ship". User:HopsonRoad 12:11, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Just to raise a point, i dont have any source on this - rather just general knowledge having personally gone to a Uni with a marine connection. I believe the general modern interpretation is a ship leans out of a turn, whereas a boat leans in to the turn. Might just be an old wives tale, but thought it may be better than the sort of "not really sure" explanation atm. Maybe an idea to springboard off if an authoritative source can be found Garfie489 (talk) 04:01, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for this, Garfie489. I understand that's a distinction made in the US Navy, but I haven't found an official reference on this, either! Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 21:39, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Massive gap needs to be removed

In my opinion, the massive gap on the 'See also' section before the text underneath the tab should be removed as it makes the section look untidy in my opinion. Xboxsponge15 (talk) 13:20, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for the tip, Xboxsponge15! HopsonRoad (talk) 15:50, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

No problem! Xboxsponge15 (talk) 16:01, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Feminine gender

At the end of the Nomenclature section, the article states, "Ship (along with nation) is an English word that has retained a female grammatical gender in some usages, which allows it sometimes to be referred to as a she without being of female natural gender.[13] However, Wiktionary traces it back through Middle English schip, Old English skip, Proto-West-Germanic *skip, and Proto-Germanic *skipą, all of which were neuter. I think a better explanation is needed as to why ships (and some other vehicles) are sometimes treated as feminine.

-- Solo Owl 03:54, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

That's not for us to judge, Solo Owl. We depend on reliable sources and when they disagree, we report the disagreement. Something published in the Cambridge University Press is as reliable as it comes. The entirety of Chapter Four in the reference given is devoted to this question. If it's incorrectly paraphrased, then it would be good to suggest how to improve the entry, here. HopsonRoad (talk) 02:54, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Size of a sailing ship/bowsprit/159 year old reference

I am alarmed by the edit [1] by User:HopsonRoad (and subsequent edits).
(1) The definition of a ship (as in full-rigged ship) is all about the rig. There is no consideration of the size of the hull. Therefore you have examples of brigs which are bigger than ships. I can dig out a reference for that given time, but this problem needs fixing a.s.a.p.
(2) There is no requirement for a ship to have a bowsprit. They (probably) invariably do, but the definition is all about the square rigged masts.
(3) The reference given to support this is 159 years old. The more modern reference (Jenny Bennett, Sailing Rigs, an Illustrated Guide) is right up to date, written by someone with excellent credentials, and relies on equally impressive references. Note that the 159 year old ref was from a time when the terminology was adjusting to steam vessels and, I suggest, the nautical dictionary writer was struggling with the developing language.
(4) Leaving the text as it is directly contradicts the reference given (Bennett) - if you don't like the text supported by Bennett, at least delete the reference, because otherwise Wikipedia is misrepresenting that author. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:36, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

And the 159 year old reference does not actually support the text in the article. Hence the failed verification tag. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:33, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

ThoughtIdRetired, bear in mind, the description is from the Age of Sail, not the modern perspective, when the reference would have applied. I can't see what's in Bennet, so it's hard to judge its merits. Perhaps you could quote Bennet, here, so we can discuss what it says. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 02:23, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

This 1898 source says, that a ship is "a term applied indiscriminately to any large vessel, but among seamen is restricted to one that is full-rigged." By now, we're past the age of sail. HopsonRoad (talk) 02:34, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Upon further reflection, I concur with your concerns, ThoughtIdRetired. I hope what I have written is closer to the mark. Thanks for taking the time to comment. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 12:29, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Here is the answer that I had started on:

(A) Jenny Bennett says: "Definition. The full-rigged ship carries three or more masts, all of which are square-rigged. Each mast is in three parts: lower, top and topgallant; and usually in four: the highest section being the royal (although in later ships the topgallant and royal masts were combined in a single pole mast)." The definition then discusses the fore and aft sails that one would expect to find on a ship and then the naming of the various sails. The story of the development of ships goes on to mention that iron and then steel masts did away with the strict "3-section" masts in the definition.

(B) Another source, widely cited, is Harold Underhill's Sailing Ship Rigs and Rigging. Page 2 says "Ship. A ship is a vessel having three or more masts and fully square-rigged throughout. Each mast is composed of a lower-mast, topmast, topgallant-mast, and in most cases royal-mast." Underhill then states that topgallants and royal were, in later ships, combined into a single pole mast.

(C) Looking at maritime glossaries, etc., we have Jane's Dictionary of Naval Terms which says "Ship. (1) General term for a seagoing vessel (in contrast to boat.....) (2) Sailing vessel with three (occ. more) masts and square-rigged on all of them...."

Out of all this, I think the article needs to make clear that a ship is either a loose general term for a seagoing vessel of a wide number of types or a specific type of sailing vessel, defined by its rig. When people use or used the latter definition, we would find them also talking about brigs, barques, schooners, etc, – with "ship" being used in the same way as the other terms that we immediately know describe the rig.

I unexpectedly find myself out of time to look at this more right now, but note that edits have been made to the article. I will get back to this later. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 13:22, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

I think it is important for the editor (and ultimately, the encyclopaedia user) to understand how the word ship, at certain times and in certain contexts, clearly meant the rig. Something verging on WP:OR illustrates this well. Look at [2] This is the shipping report of an American newspaper and should be free for all to read. It originate from a search for the words "ship" and "brig" - so will find instances where rig description is used. This example is shown because the result is not behind a paywall. I have other similar newspaper searches from the 1870s and 1880s that list. This is the technical usage of the word "ship" to mean the rig. At the same time, ship was used more loosely, particularly when not applied to a particular vessel where the rig was known. (But it is worth realising that, especially in the commercial world, a good level of technical understanding of shipping terminology was present - consider the beginning of The Merchant of Venice where the term "argosy" is used – so that is a technical term for a type of ship based in the Mediterranean in a play performed in London.) Seeing actual usage makes clear what we are reading in references.

As it stands, I think the explanation in the article is confusing and does not make clear that, especially historically, the word "ship" can be the technical description of the rig of a vessel, whilst in other contexts in the same era, it might be used much less precisely, for any large water-craft, especially when the actual nature of that vessel is not known or several are referred to collectively.

I suggest the entire paragraph in the article should read something along the lines of:
Historically, particularly in the Age of Sail, the word "ship" frequently denoted the type of rig of a vessel. In modern times this might sometimes be expressed, for clarity, as full-rigged ship. In this usage, "ship" is defined as a sailing vessel with three or more masts, all of which are square-rigged. This would differentiate from other common rigs of the time, such as brig, barque, etc. Concurrent with use of "ship" as the name of a rig, the less technically precise meaning can also be found: a seagoing vessel.

Any thoughts on this idea? ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:05, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the thoughts that you have put forward, ThoughtIdRetired, and for your patience in arriving at a solution. I have to step away for about 18 hours, so if you want to draft something that you find satisfactory, I'd be interested in seeing it. Once concern I have is that we not synthesize a range of sources to the degree that our own judgment enters into what we write. Instead, we must directly paraphrase them, and when appropriate, cite sources that disagree. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 02:03, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and substituted a paragraph based on the above suggestion. It has been carefully fine-tuned for accuracy and supportability from sources. I have kept the 3 references, despite laying the edit open to criticism as being over-cited. The logic is that both Underhill and Bennett give the "3 square-rigged masts" definition, but Underhill, despite still being the undisputed authority on the subject, is somewhat old. Therefore using Bennett (who clearly bases her remarks on Underhill) gives modern validation to the older work. Just citing Bennett would conceal from the reader the very useful definitive source that Underhill represents. Palmer is there to support the generalist definition of ship that sits alongside the technical one. The fact that the generalist definition - a large sea-going vessel - is used even in the age of sail is not fully supported by an RS (yet another ref would be a problem?), but you can find this usage in Shakespeare, old newspapers, etc. Incidentally, "full-rigged ship" goes back to the 1860s, per OED and also old newspapers.

The only question in my mind is whether the extensive usage of referring to vessels by their rigs needs to be illustrated by one of the open-source old newspapers. It is hard to explain how this worked - by analogy one can show what we do with cars: hatchback, sedan, SUV, etc, but that is not really an encyclopaedic style.

There probably also needs to be a sentence in the lead that says "During the age of sail, the word "ship" usually meant a vessel that was ship-rigged – that is: square-rigged on all of three or more masts." But I am thinking that we are building this wall one brick at a time. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 08:04, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm content with your edit, ThoughtIdRetired. Thank you.

What's not clear is the distinction between informal usage and correct maritime usage at any given point in time. This is not for us to include in the article, except when we're citing an authority that has addressed this question. I'm wondering whether a 15th-century maritime authority would not have called a carrack a ship, when full-rigged ships were not yet invented. If so, then it would appear necessary to allow the broad use of ship for large vessel of the period and not confine the term to being informal or narrowly applicable to a full-rigged ship.

Picking up your automotive analogy, it would be rare to refer to a pick-up truck, SUV, or box truck as a "car"; a technically minded person would use the over-arching term of "vehicle". It appears that in the 19th century among mariners, ship, barque, brig, brigantine, and schooner would all have specific, narrow meanings. The question is whether landlubbers would speak of all of them as ships. The matter must be resolved in the article by reliable sources that discuss such questions, although it's fine to discuss our individual ideas and findings, here. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 17:01, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Examples of "ship" being used in the general sense of a large form of water transport, at a time when a seafarer referring to an individual vessel would use the rig-descriptive term are:
OED (online) 1 b, the sense "take ship" and similar: cites an 1888 price quoted "ex-ship"
Shipping and Mercantile Gazette (so, a specialist newspaper), 1871, the many columns of shipping movements are all headed "Ships arrived home", "Ships arrived out" (whatever that means), "ships spoken" etc. Clearly the word "ship" has been substituted for "vessel", as the contents of these lists, where appropriate, has the rig: brig, ship, etc.
Thomas Riley Blanckley. A Naval Expositor "Shewing and Explaining the Words and Terms ... & Fitting a Ship for Sea" (publ 1750 - when there were vessels rigged other than as ships - and the content of this glossary is general)
These are all examples of the general rather than rig-specific use of "ship" at a time when the rig-specific usage was also used. Could this be called WP:OR? Surely not the Oxford English Dictionary - and all the rest of it is easy for another editor to verify if they have suitable material (of which there is plenty) to consult. I agree Shakespeare is probably a little before the terminology we are discussing was established. But looking at other literature (e.g. Treasure Island, Robinson Crusoe) it seems as though "ship" is being used generally by those not very familiar with the sea. (Defoe was presumably not familiar with the sea, or else he would not have been sued for libel by the people of Deal, Kent.) So, the arguments are here for any editor to disagree with if they wish. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 20:02, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

References

Technically true?

Hi ThoughtIdRetired, you recently put, "For most of the age of sail, the word "ship" often denoted that a vessel was ship-rigged – that is: square-rigged on all of three or more masts. This ambiguity can usually (but not always) be resolved from the context" into the article. Is this true? Is that a citable assertion?

Would it not be more prudent to say, "During the age of sail, ship acquired a specific connotation among mariners as a full-rigged ship with square-rigged sails on all of three or more masts, which distinguished it from vessels with other sail plans and their own specific nautical names." Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 18:47, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

The closest reference I have found so far to support this is:
"SHIP, vaisseau, (scip, Sax.) a general name given by seamen to the first rank of vessels which are navigated on the ocean. Amongst people who are unacquainted with marine distinctions, this term is of very vague and indiscriminate acceptation: and indeed sailors themselves, submitting occasionally to the influence of custom, receive it according to this general idea. In the sea-language, however, it is more particularly applied to a vessel furnished with three masts, each of which is composed of a lower mast, top-mast, and top-gallant-mast, with the usual machinery thereto belonging." from William Falconer. An Universal Dictionary of the Marine (that's the short title) first printed in 1669.
I feel that supports the ambiguity bit - whether it is resolvable from context is a bit of explanation that I feel an editor is allowed. The actual definition of a full-rigged ship in Falconer's dictionary is not fantastic, but he was making an early attempt at a nautical dictionary - he didn't have anyone to copy. We know that he is saying that there are three square rigged masts, because he has talked about a lower mast, topmast and top-gallant. That, as may sources say, is a "square-rigged mast". It just is not defined by using the word "sail". (Which is a lot easier for a modern reader to understand, and is used by modern sources, even if alongside the 3 section mast description.) Fore and aft sails (on their own) are put on masts with a different structure: pole masts (even if there is then a topmast above it). To get a feel for Falconer's ability as a dictionary writer, look, for instance, at his footnote to the more well known The Shipwreck, for studding sail, which says "1. Stud, or studding-sails, called by the French Bonettes en etude, are light sails, which are extended in moderate breezes beyond the skirts of the principal Sails; where they appear as Wings upon the Yard-arms. According to a conjecture of one of Falconer's friends, these sails seem originally to have been called steadying Sails, from their tendency to keep the ship in a steady course, as also from the Saxon word s ted, to assist." If you know what he is talking about, that is OK - but...

There might be better sources, but it takes a while to find them. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 19:33, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Of course, just to complicate things, "ship" is a very old word in the English language. If the meaning in the Age of Sail is mentioned, the article should possibly mention the usage before that era. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 19:45, 3 June 2022 (UTC)