Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 155

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Archive 150

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Archive 153

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Articles for merging

It's tough to tell as neither article is of a particularly good standard, but I think the articles for Northamptonshire Senior Cup and Hillier Cup are actually describing the same competition. The list of winners/runner-up are very similar (although not completely identical!), and Kettering Town have won both trophies 31 times :P

Therefore I think these articles need combining/merging (or maybe just the Hillier article deleting?), but this is all a bit beyond my skillset if anyone can be of assistance? Thanks for your help Nonleagueapps (talk) 09:43, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

From the text on both pages they are the same competition. I don't know if there is a naming convention for these (being called the Hillier Senior Cup since 1981 would suggest this is not a sponsored name), but it seems Hillier Senior Cup should be the base article with the other 2 pages redirected to it. The 2 articles give different results for recent finals, and neither is particularly up to date (or was it cancelled due to Covid?). It doesn;t help that the refs used are now 404s. Spike 'em (talk) 10:41, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I found a league source which shows recent winners and merged the articles. The list of winners in the NSC article seems to be a year out of sync for at the begining of the crosssover of results, so I've not included. Happy for somone else to do so if they figure out where it goes wrong (will have to look in the page history). Spike 'em (talk) 15:28, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for that, great work! Looking at some of the other county cups using the template at the bottom, the consensus seems to be to have the county name as the title of the article ('Northamptonshire Senior Cup'), but then the other name in bold in the lead sentence ('Hillier Senior Cup'). For example, the Isle of Wight Senior Cup is the name of the article, with it described as the 'Senior Gold Cup' in the lead sentence. Is everyone happy if we go with that here for consistency? (It annoys me how the 'Northamptonshire Senior Cup' in the template isn't blacked out when you're on the page because the title doesn't match!) Nonleagueapps (talk) 22:48, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Peter Barnes (footballer)

@Rcclh: is edit warring at this article to change the Leeds stats from 31 to 30 games. Sources say both, but the STABLE version is 31 and that is supported by (in my view) a better calibre of source, being Hugman, Neil Brown, and (based on the career stats table) ENFA - as opposed to the Leeds fan sites and WorldFootball Rcclh suggests. Can anybody shed any light please? Giant Snowman 19:24, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Do any of these sources actually list the 31/30 games? That would be helpful to clear up the situation. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 19:38, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

The fan sites do - but they might be missing a match. Giant Snowman 20:46, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Nehme1499 fraid not :( . Soccerway and Soccerbase are useful in displaying matches players have played in but on Soccerbase, Barnes only appeared to play for Man City v Newcastle which he scored. Soccerway does not include any league appearances at all. Where next folks? Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:54, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Rothmans:30 Leeds United A complete record 1919-1989 :31 The difference is the match against Manchester City 10 March. These things happen sometimes. Reliable is not the same thing as 100% accurate. (I would go for 31 in this case). Cattivi (talk) 21:12, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed - it should be 31. @Rcclh: do you agree? Giant Snowman 06:36, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I just checked the report on that match in The Times dated 11 March 1982 and it does not list Barnes in the Leeds team, which would point towards the Rothmans source being correct and 30 being the right number...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:29, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Do you think ENFA, Hugman, The writers of the Leeds United complete record book etc. are not aware what newspapers and Rothmans write? I think they know what they're doing. They use much more sources than only a few newspapers. I think there is a high possibility you are re-introducing errors made in the past if you use sources like the Times and Rothmans this way.Cattivi (talk) 10:07, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

That's now 3 sources saying Harris and not Barnes played v Man City. Where are the source saying Harris played? The Leeds F.C. History site have miscounted their own data and all the other sites have just copied the 31. Rcclh (talk) 22:14, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Of course I don't agree. I've posted the evidence twice now listing the individual games on both the Barnes article' talk page and your talk page and I haven't seen any evidence to say Barnes and not Harris played against Man City.

Let me show you again ...

It appears some sources have taken this page of total appearances from the Leeds F.C. History site where they have miscounted the appearances of Barnes and Harris. https://www.leeds-fans.org.uk/leeds/history/67.html This says Barnes played 31 and Harris 15(3). However on the same site, they document each appearance individually and the total for Barnes comes to only 30 as referenced here with "30/30" (30th start out of 30) on the last game of the season v WBA http://www.ozwhitelufc.net.au/leeds_stats/leeds_united_team_details/Teamsheet_by_season/1981-82/1981-82%20West%20Bromwich%20Albion%20(a).php whereas the final start for Harris is referenced as 16/16 (16th start out of 16) http://www.ozwhitelufc.net.au/leeds_stats/leeds_united_team_details/Teamsheet_by_season/1981-82/1981-82%20Manchester%20City%20(h).php

It is perhaps because Harris took Barnes usual 11 shirt on his final start for Leeds that the mistake in the totals was made. Another site concurs that Harris, and not Barnes played in that match against Manchester City https://www.worldfootball.net/report/premier-league-1981-1982-leeds-united-manchester-city/ Rcclh (talk) 22:11, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Jarred and MacDonald published the book I mentioned in 1989. They can’t have used online sources. More likely are the Yorkshire Evening Post, Jarred worked there in 1989, the club records and official FA records. I’m pretty sure ENFA and Hugman used Jarred and MacDonald. They both started publishing\ have their origins in the pre internet days. Harris, Barnes is not the only difference. In the book Balcombe is not wearing his usual 6 shirt, but the 5 shirt. Cherry played with Number 6. Cattivi (talk) 06:51, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I wasn't really clear to me from your previous message what you had found. So you are saying Jarred and MacDonald published a book on Leeds United that specifies Barnes playing in the match on March 10th 1982, or just that he played 31 games? If the former, that makes a difference because i hadn't seen or heard of a source for that so far, and so balances the probabilities more in my eyes. I still think there is more evidence for 30 though, as we can now add a Man City site to the list https://www.citytilidie.com/latest/leeds-away-198182/ which means we have a report at the time (The Times), a world football site, a Leeds site and a Man City site. Incidentally there's a flickr user that scans in football programmes that would tell us the answer on the statistics page, but frustratingly the last Leeds programme scanned in for that season was Leeds v Man City. Rcclh (talk) 13:38, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

ENFA list both Barnes and Harris playing in that match. Barnes 31, Harris 15+3 league apps that season. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:59, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

ok - when ENFA was quoted before and someone asked if they listed matches the reply was that "the fans sites do", so that's also new information.

Have chedked newspaper reports on the match. Neither Harris nor Barnes are mentioned and team sheets are not provided. However there are stories on the same day that John Bond, manager of Manchester City, was enquiring about buying "unsettled" (Daily Telegraph) and "out-of-favour" (Reading Evening Post) Barnes. Additionally Harris, and not Barnes, played in the game before and the game after the Leeds / Man City game. Very much pointing to him not playing in this game. Rcclh (talk) 14:51, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

The Times report lists the line-ups and has this team for Leeds: Lukic, Greenhoff, Gray, Hird, Cherry, Burns, Butterworth, Thomas, Worthington, Connor, Harris. The report also specifically notes "....while Harris on the opposite wing could only manage to involve himself in the game sporadically". I know reporters do make errors, but it would seem to be pretty unusual for the reporter to specifically namecheck Harris if it wasn't him playing....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:37, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I also found a report from the Aberdeen Evening Express (random I know but there you go) dated 12 March saying "Former Scotland striker Derek Parlane and England winger Peter Barnes are recalled to the Leeds United squad for tomorrow's relegation clash at Sunderland". He wouldn't be described as being recalled if he had played in the last game -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:48, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

There seems to be a big problem with the line-ups on page 305 of the book. Balcombe didn't play 23 games 0 goals. In the home game against Aston Villa when he scored, he isn't even in the line-up. Aspin, Thomas, Butterworth all completely wrong. Looks like something went wrong in an excel file. Balcombe 1 game 1 goal on page 59 is correct. If they both played(ENFA) someone else (not Harris) didn't play against Manchester City. Cattivi (talk) 17:46, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

@Cattivi: do you or @Struway2: have the full line-up for the game as listed by ENFA so that we can compare it with the one listed by the contemporary source from The Times.....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:54, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I think it's pretty clear now Barnes didn't play in that game and Harris did. Balcombe made 1 appearance for Leeds in October 1981 v Aston Villa. Rcclh (talk) 22:33, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

1 John Lukic 2 Brian Greenhoff 3 Eddie Gray 4 Kevin Hird 5 Kenny Burns 6 Trevor Cherry 7 Carl Harris 8 Gwyn Thomas 9 Frank Worthington 10 Terry Connor 11 Peter Barnes

according to ENFA. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:59, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

and if you want a different contemporary lineup, there's The Grauniad's Lukic, Greenhoff, Gray, Hird, Cherry, Barnes, Butterworth, Thomas, Worthington, Connor, Harris. But true to its reputation, it lists 11 players but omits Burns, who must have been there or he couldn't have been sent off in the first half... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:10, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

If we assume that the Guardian has Barnes as a typo for Burns (which seems plausible given where he is listed in that line-up) then that XI would match what The Times has. The player that ENFA are missing is Aiden Butterworth, and again he is specifically namechecked in the Times report ("Butterworth almost had a death wish to run down blind alleys"). I really think all the signs are pointing to the line-up in The Times being the right one, meaning that Barnes did not play. Annoyingly none of the Yorkshire local papers seem to be available on Gale, proQuest, BNA or Newspapers.com...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:51, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

If this is true, the line-up in ENFA would be unverifiable for everybody, it would be fiction, that’s a very bad thing. Someone should ask ENFA what their source is, there can still be a good explanation. Cattivi (talk) 22:06, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Resolved comments from ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:29, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

:I know Pete Barnes is the brother of John Barnes. I create the 1980-81 Nottingham Forest season masterpice article and I'm gonna delete it because the Nomenklature censored my CONMEBOL Qualification stages Position by round tables. HugoAcosta9 (talk) 00:09, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Can someone temporarily block Hugo? It's getting annoying. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 00:30, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I have blocked him for 72 hours -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:22, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

RfC: Change to Sports Personalities section

An RfC is pending at Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)#RfC: Change to Sports Personalities section. Cbl62 (talk) 03:40, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

"Other players under contract"

I noticed that a lot of club and club-season articles have sub-sections titled "other players under contract" (see here), listing fringe players who have just come back from loan spells but are not included in the first-team squad by the club itself. Most of those players are bound to depart again soon, but it's not uncommon to see one or two guys remain there for an entire season, either because they're injured or the club is unable to sell them. Needless to say, those section are usually unreferenced (but most likely relying on information found on Transfermarkt).

So the question is: what's the consensus here? Personally, I would get rid of those sub-sections since they're unsourced and OR. Besides, if such players are not considered first-team players by the club, I see no reason for us to include list them at all (just like we don't list every single academy player, or every single kitman for that matter). Luxic (talk) 21:56, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I feel like there are some editors of football articles who aren't members of the WikiProject and just create their own manuals of style, common sense be damned (seeing transfer tables getting updated with the club a released player joined three months later still blows my mind). You're right to request input, but it seems like we're fighting an uphill battle. Seasider53 (talk) 22:08, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

That section seems to be a misnomer, you're either in the first team squad or a youth team squad. Either a correct title added or remove the section completely. Govvy (talk) 08:47, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Agreee with Luxic. I too believe there can be those who aren't considered first-team players. Dr Salvus 10:45, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Case in point for rogue editing: Tom Barkuizen was released by Preston on 9 May (officially 30 June, of course), and this morning his release got updated to a transfer to Derby County (in parentheses, to denote it happened "after his Preston North End contract expired") in North End's outgoing transfers for this season. I've since removed the player-tracking attempts, although it was reverted briefly this morning. Seasider53 (talk) 10:31, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Seasider is correct that when a player is released, he should be shown as 'released', not moving to a new club on a free transfer.

I also think Govvy is right that 'other players' should not be a section. If they are a contracted senior player but do not have a squad number then list them with a '-'. Giant Snowman 10:33, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

GS, so you'd put want to see 48398903 players with a "-" and huge templates? I'd prefer seeing the section. Dr Salvus 10:50, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

I think most people would prefer to scroll through a table in one section rather than scroll through multiple sections to get the same information. Seasider53 (talk) 11:17, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

What clubs have such large squads of players that are neither first teamer or 'reserve/U23' etc. squad members? Giant Snowman 11:34, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

See the huge amount of non youth teams players Juventus do have. I'm afraid they won't loan every player due to Fifa's new rules and that we'll have exceeding player. Dr Salvus 11:50, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

From a quick sample, lots of those players look to be under-23 - so why aren't they included with the under-23 players? Giant Snowman 11:53, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Assistance required, if anyone's willing. On-the-fly adjustments (including footnotes now) are being made in an attempt to support post-release transfers. Seasider53 (talk) 11:54, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

GS, most of the players aged <24 you've seen are those I don't think they'll ever be given a number for Juventus U23. Dr Salvus 12:08, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Tottenham Hotspur

Looks like "Tottenham Hotspur" is common name than "Tottenham Hotspur F.C.". "Tottenham Hotspur F.C." is probably fake (such abbreviation is rather not used expect Wikipedia). Eurohunter (talk) 23:51, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

What are you talking about? – Pee Jay 01:14, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Eurohunter, assuming you are suggesting changing the title of the main article. The full name should be used. Although "Tottenham Hotspur" would appear to be the WP:COMMONNAME in this situation, "Tottenham Hotspur F.C." is the club's official name and should be used. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 07:52, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@REDMAN 2019: No. Official full name is "Tottenham Hotspur Football Club". There are four variants:

1. "Tottenham Hotspur" - short official name used by club in social media and at official website + it is also WP:COMMONNAME used by media (examples: [1], [2], [3]).

2. "Tottenham" - shorter variant of the name used by media alternately (examples above).

3. "Tottenham Hotspur Football Club" - official full name.

4. "Tottenham Hotspur F.C." - not used by media or probably not used by anyone else and part of name is incorrectly abbreviated (should be "Tottenham Hotspur FC" - without dots).

Eurohunter (talk) 09:09, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

This is an absolute non-starter - otherwise we will end up with article club names like Man U and Liverpool (football club) etc. Giant Snowman 09:46, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, absolutely. I don't think anyone would have an issue with "Football Club" instead of the suffix "F.C.", but that looks like a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. Black Kite (talk) 09:54, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

One thing to consider: in the Premier League there is a team commonly known as Bournemouth but there is also Bournemouth F.C. which is a totally different club from the same place in fact. With Tottenham Hotspur, there is also Tottenham Hotspur (Superleague Formula team) which was operated for three years so dab on "Tottenham Hotspur" is and will always be needed. And to use some local rivalry examples - there are a few clubs named "Arsenal" worldwide - see Arsenal_(disambiguation)#Association_football and we would not move Arsenal F.C. to Arsenal either because the latter page already has content reserved for the weapons. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:42, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Warning

It would appear that a random 29-year-old Premier League footballer has been arrested per this news report. Keep your eyes on any potential vandalism on the random article in case people who know the identity of that footballer starts editing that page. He can't be named for legal reasons - the same case with Gylfi Sigurðsson almost a year ago where people probably vandalised that article of the former Everton player. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:53, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Restrictions on naming the player almost certainly only apply in the UK. Media elsewhere and Wikipedia can name him. HiLo48 (talk) 07:56, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

We should be careful even if named in foreign media to report the notable elements and not get into blow by blow accounts or speculation. Koncorde (talk) 10:40, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Definitely no BLP worries here. Spike 'em (talk) 13:02, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Raphinha

Could I get some input at Raphinha for the RM? Thanks. Paul Vaurie (talk) 14:07, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Officialised deals

When a deal is officialised, can there be a reliable source different from the club's website? Dr Salvus 21:08, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Reliable third-party sources are preferred over club announcements. Robby.is.on (talk) 21:19, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Island92 doesn't agree with. Dr Salvus 21:21, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Depending on which website the source is taken from.--Island92 (talk) 21:23, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't think Juventusnews24 (a site I use very much) and Goal.com are rubbish. But you'd removed Michel Pisano's transfer to Bayern Munich which is sourced with Goal.com. Dr Salvus 21:26, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, despite that info coming from Goal.com, I did not consider it to be trusty.--Island92 (talk) 21:29, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

And why? Dr Salvus 21:35, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Because personally I consider it to be far from the normal football transfermarket. It's my opinion.--Island92 (talk) 21:39, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Ok, Michele Pisano played for Juventus U16 in 21/22, but would there be a reason for which the news had a significant coverage? Search "Michele Pisano" and you won't find just a few results. Dr Salvus 21:49, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Mb, he's Manuel Pisano 🤦‍♀️. Dr Salvus 21:51, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Potential Clive Middlemass copyvio

I can check on this when I have time, if nobody else has been able to, but I put the pertinent info on Middlemass's talk page. Either the Lancashire Evening Post has lifted from his Wikipedia article almost verbatim, or a Wikipedia editor has been deft with some copying and pasting skills. Seasider53 (talk) 22:03, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

False alarm. Just had a peek at the edit prior to his death and it's largely the same. Amazing work by the LEP reporter, then... Seasider53 (talk) 22:05, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Maps in CFL season pages

Do we really need the recently added 'team location maps', in all the CFL season pages? I'm asking here, as WP:CFL is semi-active. GoodDay (talk) 21:08, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

GoodDay, yes I think. Dr Salvus 21:22, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

@GoodDay: Just so you know, this is the WikiProject for soccer. I think you wanted Wikipedia:WikiProject American football since you were asking about the CFL and North American Football instead of European football, which is what this one is. RedPatch (talk) 21:37, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Recommend it be renamed "Wikipedia:WikiProject Association Football", to avoid any confusion. GoodDay (talk) 21:40, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

This is the first time I've seen someone post something about American football in here in my eighteen or so years on Wikipedia. That isn't to say it hasn't happened, but it seems most people pay attention sufficiently. Seasider53 (talk) 21:52, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Actually, Canadian football. GoodDay (talk) 00:11, 6 July 2022 (UTC)