Talk:Minneapolis

FA issues persist

The article is *much* improved from the notice I left over a year ago, but needs a thorough copyedit; perhaps WP:GOCE can be brought in. There are still maintenance tags. Redlining and covenants are mentioned in two different sections, and racial issues in about three sections; better overall organization is needed. There are some instances of unnecessarily loaded or off-topic language (for example, this is not Hubert Humphrey's article). Working with an experienced copyeditor (someone accustomed to working at the FA level) might help assure this article is at FA standards. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:36, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

• What secondary source has mentioned this? As of 2020, Minneapolis–St. Paul area is the second largest economic center in the Midwest, behind Chicago.[134] If none, this is original research and WP:UNDUE. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:50, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  That was my attempt to cite claims that have been flying around for years (biggest between Chicago and Seattle for example). Many books just copy Wikipedia blindly (even a Springer book, for shame). I found a good source here though, if the claim can be reworded. Mr. Dahl is a public affairs economist at the Minneapolis Fed. He says of the northern tier of states, Minneapolis is the largest economic center between Milwaukee and the Pacific. Also MinnPost says in 2010 Minneapolis was not quite there yet (not yet second to Chicago for second biggest economy in the Midwest). -SusanLesch (talk) 23:21, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

References

• Encyclopedia Britannica is not an adequate source for a Featured article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:51, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  Both removed thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:59, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

• This sentence doesn't say anything; the source provides some material that can be eked out into something meaningufl. Philanthropy and charitable giving are part of the community.[189] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:13, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  Rewritten to the source. - SusanLesch (talk) 23:14, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

• A 2020 crime wave is mentioned; wasn't 2021 worse? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:27, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  Would somebody else care to fix this one? - SusanLesch (talk) 23:38, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

The article is vastly improved since my 2020 note, and is no longer in urgent need of a featured article review, but there are still pressing items that should be addressed. Unwatching; please ping me if my feedback is needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:33, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Collage

I'd recommend that the collage be converted into separate files per WP:COLLAGETIPS. The images might also be improved. Anyone want to take that on? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:31, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Welcome GOCE

At SandyGeorgia's suggestion, I made a request for copyediting at the Guild of Copy Editors. User:Baffle gab1978 has begun. We are awfully lucky to have them. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:40, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Question

Greetings, User:Titi68999. Pardon the question but may I ask why you have a sudden interest in this article? I would like to make room for our guest from Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors. Those services are really rare. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:30, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi. just trying to clean up one section about trails in the city. kept on not liking how I was rewriting the one half a sentence so apologies for the several edits. I have am done now. You are welcome to read it; it is the "many parts of the city; such as" part. I tried to keep out of the way for GOCE. so thankful for their diligent work. That is all I came here for! thank you for "gate keeping" this article. -- Titi68999 (talk) 23:35, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi both; thanks for your comments and confidence; I do do my best to make text as clear and concise as possible but I'm aware sometimes the results are a bit on the sterile side. As a non-US editor, I can also sometimes make mistakes with particular US-English terminology and grammar (although not as many as I used to), so I do appreciate corrections in these areas. Anyway, this article will take a few more sessions to complete so thanks for your patience. Cheers, Baffle☿gab 07:45, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Further to the above, note Titi68999 has been blocked as a sockpuppet account. @SusanLesch:, maybe look out for further socking on this article. Cheers, Baffle☿gab 06:59, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Baffle☿gab, you're doing great! I am offline today and will be back later this week. Yes, they were the 11th known sockpuppet from the same account. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:04, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

No worries; I'm glad you're aware of the socking. I've now finished my c/e. Good luck with the article and cheers, Baffle☿gab 02:53, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

		The Copyeditor's Barnstar
		Thanks to Baffle☿gab for finishing our big project. Much obliged. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:45, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Removed text (c/e)

CC-BY-SA; I've remove the following text from the article; I'm leaving it here, with its refs, for future editors; see article history for full attribution. Baffle☿gab 04:48, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

From "Culture --> Music"

(removed because it's in the wrong article—this article is about Minneapolis, not the music director of an orchestra):

Vänskä's affinity for fellow Finn Jean Sibelius was recognized by a Grammy nomination in 2013 for a recording of "Sibelius: Symphonies Nos. 2 & 5," and the orchestra won a Grammy Award in 2014 for "Sibelius: Symphonies Nos 1 & 4."

References

Cheers, Baffle☿gab 04:48, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Minneapolis Collage 2022.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:51, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2022

Sock request

Looks like a lot of vandalism so it should be restored back a few days to the most recent version that is not vandalism. AncientCastle (talk) 19:44, 22 June 2022 (UTC)  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:50, 22 June 2022 (UTC) To be more clear I want to restore the version on 19:47, 14 June 2022. It is the most recent non-vandal version. The one that is up is riddled with the vandal’s edits. Thank you. AncientCastle (talk) 19:58, 22 June 2022 (UTC) I honestly don't see any vandalism between the two versions (https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Minneapolis&diff=1094466116&oldid=1093135484). Rather the most recent version removed some vandalism in the section on Prince. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:01, 22 June 2022 (UTC) Evergreen, Your edits are helpful, I just think we should go and revert to pre IP disruption which was on the 14th of June. Restored version (one currently up) is a restored sock puppet version so it should be removed back to the 14th. Thank you. AncientCastle (talk) 20:07, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Minneapolis Collage 2022.png

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:36, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

To do

Things that need doing. We've lost time to a sockpuppet farm but we've gained an expert copyediting pass, for which I am grateful.

• In Minneapolis#Waterpower;_lumber_and_flour_milling. Minneapolis led the world in flour milling for 50 years.
• tunnel collapse at St. Anthony Falls in 1869
• In Minneapolis#Demographics. A 2015 report found racial and ethnic minorities in the city were unequal in education, with 15 percent of Blacks and 13 percent of Hispanics holding bachelor's degrees compared with 42 percent of the White population. While the standard of living is rising with incomes among the highest in the Midwest, in 2015, the median household income among minorities was below that of Whites by over $17,000 and the poverty-rate gap between Blacks and Whites was the widest in the US.
• The section Minneapolis#Annual_events needs sources.
• Replace source: Encyclopedia Britannica, used in the Religion and Economy sections.

References

-SusanLesch (talk) 13:48, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Latitude, longitude

Is it worth mentioning the fact listed in 45th parallel north? JDAWiseman (talk) 22:14, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Is this history of Minneapolis or history of racism in Minneapolis?

Seriously, the History section is 50% an article explaining racism in the city and nothing else important. Some people are actually interested in the history of Minneapolis. I recognize some of that is important but it’s not the history of Minneapolis it’s the history of discrimination in Minneapolis which maybe could be another section? Or shortened? This section also seems quite opinionated in some parts of it, so I’m not surprised it’s locked to prevent changing it…. 69.126.152.193 (talk) 23:49, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Greetings, 69.126.152.193. Do you have a specific suggestion? What areas interest you, like parks, architecture, or the economy? If you make an edit request, I bet somebody would be happy to help. Your edit history suggests that you have an interest in racism in the US. Minneapolis has a high degree of racial disparities, and a history of causing problems for many groups: Native Americans, Jews, Germans, persons with developmental disabilities, Blacks. That history can't be extracted from the article. Sorry. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:14, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

The IP editor makes a valid point. The history and demographic sections give undue weight to social tensions and racism. I typed "history of Minneapolis" into Google. These were the top returns:

• Britannica - no mention of racism.
• USHistory.com - no mention of racism.
• Minnesota Historical Society - no mention of racism.
• Meet Minneapolis - no mention of racism.
• Life in Minnesota - One sentence about racial issues. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:08, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

You omitted one hit from my first page of Google results: "New book explores cycles and whiplash of Minneapolis history," which is a review of the book by Tom Weber, published by the Minnesota Historical Society Press, just after COVID-19 started and just before George Floyd's murder. Chapter 7 is "Discrimination, Redlining, and the KKK." Mr. Weber's book is a source for this article.

We can't use Britannica as a source. Your other hits are tourism hubs:

• USHistory.com is created by Online Highways, "a leader in Internet travel information and reservations."
• Life in Minnesota strives "to deliver stories that brighten your day, build your pride in Minnesota"
• Meet Minneapolis says: "our mission is to positively impact the economic and social prosperity of our Minneapolis community by attracting visitors, meetings and events that directly support jobs and local businesses, and generate critical revenues."
• The Minnesota Historical Society page you cite is a history of the Mill City Museum (for tourists, suggested further reading includes Betty Crocker, and the Pillsbury Bake-Off).

-SusanLesch (talk) 19:27, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: No need to discredit the sources, you obviously know I was just using them as an example of how the "high degree of racial disparities" is not top-of-mind to those writing about Minneapolis (and yes, encyclopedias can be used as sources). But you offered great support to our point here. In Weber's book, just one out of 12 chapters is devoted to racism, yet in this Wikipedia article nearly a half of the history and demographic sections are devoted to the topic. It is undue, unbalances the article, and needs to be trimmed. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:22, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

What? I don't understand why discredited sources would be used to say what is top-of-mind.

Have you read Tom Weber's book? The topic is covered explicitly in chapters 7, 8, 9, and 10. You've entirely missed his point. His prologue concludes:

The overarching goal is to take what may be the most significant issue facing contemporary Minneapolis—the crippling disparities among its people—and present a history that examines why those disparities exist, even as the city makes a legitimate argument for itself as a must-visit or must-live kind of place.

For Minneapolitans seeking solutions to these inequities and disparities, to ignore the city's history of discrimination, racism, and inequality is to condemn such an effort to failure.

You might also consult the review mentioned above. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:06, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

References

It's easy to cherrypick sources to make a point. These sections are fundamentally imbalanced. The input of others would be appreciated. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:01, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

"Britannica] - no mention of racism." I have been claiming that Britannica is a crappy source for years, a poor excuse of an encyclopedia. Thank you for pointing out that they are whitewashing the history of Minneapolis. Most of the other sources you cited are not remotely reliable. Dimadick (talk) 09:13, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

I would have to agree that the Minneapolis article appears to give an overwhelming amount of attention to racial issues and racism. There are full sections on racism in the History section, the Geography section, and the Demographics section. I understand that racial inequality is an important part of United States history, but this article is over the top. Additionally, the amount of this article devoted to racial issues is disproportionately large compared to other major city pages, including cities in the south where slavery and Jim Crow were, at one time, legal. While Minneapolis certainly has its flaws with respect to racial equality, many of the issues outlined in this article are issues in the United States in general, not something specifically insidious about Minneapolis. Some of the sections are clearly biased generalization. Here’s one example:

“Some historians [who?] have said at various times [when?], some White Minneapolitans [who?] have used discrimination based on race against the city's non-White residents. As White settlers displaced the indigenous population during the 19th century, they claimed the city's land.”

This is an extremely narrow view of history. While it is true that Europeans took Native American lands, that is true of the United States in general. It is not specific to Minneapolis. Additionally, the majority of Europeans who settled in Minneapolis were not landowners; they were poor, working class laborers drawn to the city’s nascent milling industry and often worked in terrible conditions.

That’s just one example, but by means the only example, of how the subject of race and racism has come to dominate an article about a city. Much of this content was added in the wake of George Floyd’s murder, and while it’s important to touch on this history, it has taken over what should be a multifaceted article about a major city. Much of racial-focused content in the History, Geography, and Demographics sections need to be slimmed down considerably re-written in a more objective manner to refocus the purpose of this article. Urbanplanning2000 (talk) 23:51, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 July 2022

Can you write that it's a very large city, as it's the largest city in Minnesota? Whislife (talk) 04:41, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:59, 26 July 2022 (UTC)