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August 23

Looking for an American car tire company: B&S

Hello,
I've written an article on the French Wikipedia about Torrilhon, a former French tire manufacturer, active between the second half of the 19th and the first half of the 20th centuries. In 1902 this company obtained a product license for a car wheels rubber band (solid or pneumatic?) from an American manufacturer that I only known by its initials B&S. Looking on the en:WP desambigueous page B&S, there are only two industrial companies but they don't seem to have worked with rubber or made tires. Any ideas?
Thanks
TCY (talk) 06:08, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is one of Torrilhon advertisement published like here, in Swiss Chamber of commerce publications. The ad is focusing on product "B & S. Breveté SGDG". The "SGDG" certification being issued as a product patent, it is probable that "B & S" stands for the Torrilhon product identifier, but is not naming the American manufacturer. --Askedonty (talk) 09:44, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The only thing I can find related to B&S tires is This tire store in Wilson, North Carolina, but I doubt that is related here. --Jayron32 12:49, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah… Given the time frame the OP is asking about, I suspect it is a company that no longer exists. Blueboar (talk) 13:48, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Or it was a "Band" and Something. General Tire ( wonder General Balloon Jumbo) still exist - or are they Conti now? --Askedonty (talk) 14:02, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The only American B&S I know of commonly is Briggs & Stratton, and while they are in a very closely related industry, for which tires are an important component, they started in 1908, several years after the OP's 1902 license. The other one shown on the DAB page is Billings & Spencer, a tool and machine company that may have existed at the time, who would not have been in the business of dealing with rubber tires, AFAICT. According to this, they were acquired by Crescent Niagara in the 1960s. There is nothing in the B&S product line at that link that shows they would have been involved in anything related to rubber tires. --Jayron32 15:13, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Jayron, please read my first answer about the Swiss chamber of commerce again. Even without agreeing to any guarantee, the French governement would have had a hard time certifying American brands as local tyre types, even in backward epochs like in the 1900's. The OP only forgot to explain clearly that it's about lorry tyres (read Torrilhon), and that in all the related sentences the wheels are on rubber bands. Given the American industrial prestige in the advertizing trade and in terms of that trade's prosody B&S "smells" American, at least Anglo-American. It has to be a significant acronym, but with the subtile perfume of ownership assorted to the licence issuer proper inner culture. --Askedonty (talk) 15:40, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, what? --Jayron32 15:46, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I just mean that the acronym can't be the licence originator, it's not like it were about Coca-Cola with their particular line product. --Askedonty (talk) 15:52, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It may not be as famous as Coca Cola, but in the early 1900s, the manufacturing world was much more fragmented; there may have been a small manufacturer of tires by that name that had a single factory in some small US town. It would not be outside of the realm of possibility, it's a perfectly reasonable first line of inquiry. Since it turns out to be a likely dead-end, perhaps the initials refer to something else, but just because we arrived there by finding no such company doesn't mean the initial search was unwarranted. --Jayron32 15:56, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I can't find a company name in Newspapers.com other than individual tire stores as per Jayron's example. However, I've seen the term "balloon and solid tires" referenced. Maybe that has something to do with it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:49, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Balloon tires are a thing. They're listed on Wikipedia as a type of bicycle tire, but there are many applications of them, I have a wheelbarrow that uses a balloon tire. --Jayron32 15:53, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Would I have had the good connections, I'd then settled for Firestone. Both a startup, soon a major: Hervey Firestone reinvented the wheel, the first-ever low-pressure balloon tire (company claim), but more important before, the solid rubber sidewire tire as one of the company products foundationas of today by NEXEN Corp --Askedonty (talk) 09:12, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Askedonty, Jayron32, Baseball Bugs, and Blueboar: thanks for your help and researchs.
I think that if this American company licensed production to an overseas company, it must not have been a small and very local company. Even if at that time, in the United States as well as in Europe, in this nascent rubber industry, it was not concentrated with many companies. Perhaps B&S was an industrial company whose production in the 1900s was partly in rubber but years or decades later, is no longer in this field at all. In addition, this company, in 120 years could have disappeared or been absorbed.
In Clermont-Ferrand, the French tire city, if we find precise and exhaustive information on Michelin, we find very little on these two main competitors (Torrilhon and Bergougnan) at the beginning of the rubber industry, whose archives have very little been preserved.
TCY (talk) 06:32, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Torrilhon, Verdier et Cie filed patent no. 117207 in France (1882) [1], pages 3 and 25. They filed a trademark application on 27 November 1890 [2]. The company had been in business since 1852 and it is difficult to see why they would need to obtain a licence from a firm in America [3]. The company themselves filed for U S patents in 1885 [4] and 1883 [5]. In the French patent court in 1890 they challenged Bartlett's priority (28 March) over theirs (7 November) because it had been declared null, having been linked to Wilson (19 August) [6], pages 278-9. A M Lamy-Torrilhon filed patent no. 171556 on 8 October 1885 [7]. Another patent was filed by Torrilhon, Verdier on 13 October 1859 [8]. 2A00:23C4:570A:601:FDCE:26A1:A97A:C64B (talk) 11:43, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The firm filed numerous patents over the years, for example Fabrication et application des cercles en caoutchoue et toile pour roues de voitures et vélocipèdes à tension fixe (No. 210467, 20 January 1891) [9]. 2A00:23C4:570A:601:FDCE:26A1:A97A:C64B (talk) 12:47, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In 1852 they (rather M. Torrilhon) were into cellulose but their "bandes américaines B et S": [10] (p14), [11] (p754), later are illustrated in relation with WWI. Given the company size in 1902 1896 ( workforce: 350+ employees, site: 20,000 sqare meters ) such licence should have been a deal with majors, however, B & S might also have been chemists, or other scientists. At any rate, the product as illustrated is the object of a U.S. patent apparently: tour de france juillet 1903. --Askedonty (talk) 18:13, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The 1903 advertisement says Les seuls Bandages pratiques pour les poids lourds sont les Bandes Américaines (Système B.&S.) This phrase poids lourds translates as "heavy weights." According to Google translate, one meaning of the French word bandage is Bande de métal ou de caoutchouc qui entoure la jante d'une roue. This in turn translates to "band of metal or rubber that wraps around the rim of a wheel." The passage in the source reads:

Torrilhon déporte alors son activité vers le poids lourds en faisant appel à une licence américaine.

I assume poids lourds here means "Heavy Goods Vehicles" (HGVs) and the "licence" is that of the transport authority to use the product in vehicles on American roads. 2A00:23C4:570A:601:E995:FBDF:40B6:B42E (talk) 10:31, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would intuitively translate the licence quote rather as a referring to a patent, but then in addition there is, in the 1903 advertisement, to the left of it a sectional drawing of the tire arrangement also featuring the text PAT D embossed. Such licence, if American - but what else ? could of course be one applied to by the European manufacturer, requesting at the American patent Office. I'm a little bit in doubt about such a scenario, though it cannot be excluded for all we know, particularly if the tire was sold as a Torrilhon, and at the same time was marked "PAT D". There remains nonetheless quite a gap between the bicycle tires Torrilhon had mostly build his last recent fame upon - the same for their version(s) for automobiles - and the HGVs bandages, which were very different in design (the link, p14 above suggests "honeycomb tires", that would be basically such tires see [12] ) The photography at the previously quoted link is not showing the same kind of detail of course. --Askedonty (talk) 20:41, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The phrase "PAT D" inscribed on the drawing could be an abbreviation (I don't speak French very well) of patent dépendent ("patent pending"). It would be surprising if Torrilhon was making this claim in respect of a patent application filed by another company. I'm no patent expert (although I do hold "letters patent" granted by the Queen in 1976 - today's inventors receive a very boring document), but I am aware that after the effluxion of a certain number of years, towards the end of a patent's life, anyone can apply for a "Licence of Right" to exploit someone else's idea for a minimal fee. However, the advertisement confirms that it is a patent, not a licence, which has been applied for. 2A00:23D0:C4E:3401:FDA6:9A41:4F4A:B1D1 (talk) 15:22, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Or maybe not. "Patente" (in French) was also the word used for a fiscal identification for industrial and other commercial activities: [13]. --Askedonty (talk) 11:48, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Minto Parks

On WP I came across following 3 Minto Park articles.

Greater Iqbal Park article history section clearly mentions, in British times, it was named as Minto Park after Gilbert Elliot-Murray-Kynynmound, 1st Earl of Minto, and Governor-General of India between July 1807 and 1813.

  • Ottawa and Allahabad articles do not mention which Minto those parks were named after, whether same 1st Earl of Minto or some one else?
  • Do any other Minto Parks exist/ed any where else for which WP does not have any article?

Thanks Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 09:32, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One suspects the Ottawa park would be named after Gilbert Elliot-Murray-Kynynmound, 4th Earl of Minto, who was Governor General of Canada 1898–1904. He was also Viceroy of India 1905–1910, so some Indo-Pak Mintos may be named after him rather than the 1st Earl. The Allahabad park was, according to one of the references in our article, created by the 4th Earl, so one would assume it was named after him. DuncanHill (talk) 09:46, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I can confirm the Governor-General as the origin of the name for the Park in Ottawa; there are plenty of other things named for him around the city, as would be expected. Xuxl (talk) 15:42, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've also found a Minto Park in Marion County, Oregon, which is named after John Minto (Oregon pioneer). DuncanHill (talk) 10:08, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is known as simply "Minto-Brown." Temerarius (talk) 15:59, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Temerarius: That's a different park, my one is further out on Oregon Route 22, between Gates and Niagara. DuncanHill (talk) 18:24, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yet another one in Kolkata (or Culcutta for us old'uns) - see Kolkata, 'Shahid Bhagat Singh Udyan' popularly called 'Minto Park' (Bhagat Singh was apparently an activist for Indian independence). Alansplodge (talk) 10:35, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And one more at Dawson City in Yukon;
Established in 1904, Minto Park was named after the first Governor General that visited the Yukon, Governor General Gilbert Elliot-Murray-Kynynmound, the 4th Earl of Minto. [14]
Alansplodge (talk) 10:44, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And finally, its the name of a small cul-de-sac in Wishaw, Scotland. [15] This is not particularly close to the Scottish village of Minto, which seems to lack a public park as far as I can tell. Alansplodge (talk) 10:51, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Was there in the time of Abraham Lincoln (19th century) a trend in English-speaking countries to name children after Old Testament figures (Abraham, Adam, Eve, Isaac, Rachel, etc.)? Religious names are mentioned in Naming in the United States, but that page doesn't mention trends over time. Were specifically Old Testament names (as opposed to Christian saints) more common in this era than before or later? Is it possible to find out through Wikidata, perhaps? (Curious detail: In my Swedish ancestry, full of Anders, Erik, Johan, Lars and Nils, there was suddenly an Aron (O.T.) born in 1838, which stuck in my surname Aronsson.) -- LA2 (talk) 11:48, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The use of Old Testament given names is often taken by family historians as an indicator of nonconformity. [16]
Some 18th century English examples, Abraham Darby (a Quaker}, Josiah Wedgwood (a Unitarian) and Joshua Routledge (a Methodist) support this, but there are also counter-examples such as Isaac Newton (an Anglican priest). Some other Old Testement forenames, such as Samuel, Daniel and Adam, seem to have remained constantly popular across the religious spectrum. Alansplodge (talk) 12:31, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Religious views of Isaac Newton were unusual, although the views of whoever named him seem more relevant.  Card Zero  (talk) 12:55, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, but he was baptised as a baby at St John's Church, Colsterworth, a Church of England parish church, where his parents were both later buried. Alansplodge (talk) 15:11, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Newton's father died 3 months before Isaac was born. Wouldn't he have been buried shortly after his death? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:51, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes, I stand corrected. My point stands though, Newton came from an Anglican family. Alansplodge (talk) 09:43, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

When looking at the UK, you'd need to be wary of distorting answers by ignoring class. You could, for example, see a pronounced absence of Biblical names in the British PMs born in the 1800s, but that would be a rather selective cut of society. FWIW, without having crunched any numbers, the representation of Biblical names in that century doesn't seem tremendously different than in the ones before/after. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 13:26, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not a complete absence. Benjamin Disraeli had an O.T. forename. Deor (talk) 15:04, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Disraeli was born Jewish. A number of the items in Benjamin (name) were not. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:58, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The century for really hard-core religious names was the 17th, when there were individuals such as "If-Jesus-Christ-had-not-died-for-thee-thou-hadst-been-damned Barebone", more commonly known in later years as Nicholas Barbon... AnonMoos (talk) 18:19, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hortatory names! Something we don't have an article on. Be-courteous Cole, Safety-on-high Snat, Search-the-scriptures Moreton, More-fruit Fowler ...  Card Zero  (talk) 21:02, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Though we do name-check Thou-Shall-Not-Commit-Adultery Pulsifer -- Verbarson  talkedits 12:27, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And Visit-the-Infidel-with-Explanatory-Pamphlets. --Jayron32 13:44, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if you've noticed, but these days when you see the Jehovah's Witnesses outside railway stations with their leaflets they don't approach passers-by. That's because they have been instructed to remain passive and only engage when spoken to. 2A00:23C5:E148:1D01:B176:C22E:2E25:A35 (talk) 14:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Longest ID numbers in national identity documents

National identity documents usually have a unique ID number resp. alphanumeric identifier. From my experience, those IDs usually contain a magnitude of 10 digits/characters, of course also depending on the size of the country. Around the globe, what may be the longest IDs used for identity cards? --KnightMove (talk) 13:00, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@KnightMove I had a look through National identification number and the longest I could find are the Chinese identity card number (18 digits) and the Mexican CURP (18 alphanumeric characters). the wub "?!" 12:13, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Driving licence in the United Kingdom has 18 characters. It is frequently used as an ID document. -- Verbarson  talkedits 12:20, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This character limit seems to be widespread. For example, the Jockey Club does not allow any horse to have a name which is more than 18 characters long (including punctuation and spaces). 2A00:23C5:E148:1D01:B176:C22E:2E25:A35 (talk) 14:04, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The 18-chatacter limit is fairly universal. You can confirm that here. I can't find any reason why, but I suspect that it was baked in to some early, widely used database system (such character limits were common in things like early MS-DOS systems for example), and is a legacy that got carried through to modern times. --Jayron32 14:34, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
18 characters is the length allowed for names and for each of the two narrative columns in a standard 100/106 character bank statement electronic file? May not have a direct relationship with these IDs, but early computer systems were short on space so perhaps an 18-character 'standard' was common for names? -- Verbarson  talkedits 15:20, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I don't know what the ultimate source of such a limit is, but it is a real limit, and it appears in so many varied and unconnected contexts, it leads me to believe there is some underlying, long past technical reason which has just gotten carried on through to modern times. I can remember when things like the 8.3 filename were standard; every file in a computer was limited to an 8-character main name and a 3-character extension, which was often used to identify a file by type. Today, such limits don't exist. I can name my Google Doc pretty much anything I want. But you'd be surprised how such limitations on legacy systems hang around. The 18-character limit feels something like that. The number of bits for 18 bytes is 144, which lies somewhere between 128 and 256, which leads me to believe that there was likely some standard sized data block of 256 bits, with some amount of overhead that was reserved for another purpose, leaving 144 bits for character storage. But I'm mostly spitballing here. All I know is the limit is real, it's pervasive, and I have no actual evidence where it comes from. --Jayron32 16:13, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Governance

The governance organs: executive, legislative and the judiciary have a regulatory relationship in nature? explain. Grotesquetruth (talk) 17:06, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a homework question? Blueboar (talk) 17:12, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at uscourts.gov/statistics-reports/issue-7] it could as well qualify as wishful thinking. --Askedonty (talk) 19:02, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See our article on Separation of powers.  --Lambiam 08:22, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
yes so could we say their relationship is regulatory over governance of economy? Grotesquetruth (talk) 15:48, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please make sure you get terms correct. I the United States, the term "regulatory power" or "regulation", in the context of government, refers to what is known as secondary legislation, which basically means that it has the power of law, but it does not come in the form of bills entered into law by the legislature, rather it comes from powers delegated to other bodies by the legislature to create and enforce their own policies. For example, the Clean Air Act (a bill passed by Congress and signed into law by the President) empowers the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) the power to enact and enforce regulations in line with the parameters of the law. These parameters set by the EPA, and the penalties for violating them that the EPA has the power to enforce through civil penalties and fines, are called "regulations" rather than "laws", to distinguish them from legislative actions, but they still have the power of law. If it is a rule created by Congress, it's a law. If it is a rule passed by part of the executive branch (federal agencies), then it is a regulation. The judicial branch doesn't pass laws OR regulations, but it does mediate disputes (usually between the state and accused violators of the law or of regulations) over implementation of those laws and regulations. --Jayron32 16:06, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Meanwhile, the relationship between the three branches is different in other countries. We really can not answer the question without knowing which country you are referring to. Blueboar (talk) 16:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
yes agreed, the essence of these branches would be to regulate right? could you expand on this perhaps? Grotesquetruth (talk) 16:32, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nope… not until you say which nation you want us to comment on. Blueboar (talk) 16:51, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
common law jurisdictions Grotesquetruth (talk) 17:07, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So, even "common law" jurisdictions gets confusing because not all countries with a common law tradition have the same systems of government. The U.S. was founded on a strong separation of powers, which was based in part on the traditional European traditions of estates of the realm and in part on the concept of things like royal prerogative and parliamentary sovereignty and the like. Britain, and other countries using the Westminster system have evolved de facto into a different direction that does not have a distinct separation of powers. In practical purposes, Britain has what has been termed an "elective dictatorship" by its critics: In Britain, the majority party in Parliament gets to form a Government from among its own members. The Government (in a British sense, meaning what "Administration" means in an American sense) both acts as the Executive Branch, and as the primary source of primary legislation for the Parliament, as the UK has a strong whip system, meaning that the Government creates the legislation, brings it to Parliament for passing; and since their party is in power in that Parliament, the legislation passes. Essentially, the same body acts as both legislative and executive. Historically, the checks on this power, being the Monarch and Lords, had (and in theory still do have) power to reign in Commons, but in practice Commons is the source of all law, regulation, and enforcement in the UK. The Monarch basically never witholds royal assent (the UK equivalent of Veto Power), and Lords has the power to delay, but not to block, legislation that has been passed by Commons, meaning that for all practical purposes, the same body is responsible for all state powers in the UK. --Jayron32 18:16, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think you meant "rein in", which ordinarily I wouldn't mention, but in this context confusion between 'rein' and 'reign' could be misleading. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.208.90.29 (talk) 23:30, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
consider it an accidental pun. --Jayron32 11:50, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed the President of the U S is not a member of Congress and the Prime Minister of the U K is a Member of the House of Commons (the modern tendency is for the most powerful ministers to sit in that House rather than the House of Lords) but does not the party of which the President is a member get its legislation through if it has a majority in both Senate and House of Representatives? As I understand it the power of the Senate to block legislation approved by the House of Representatives is unlimited, and when each House is controlled by a different party this sometimes leads to a stand-off where the administration runs out of money. When there is no clear Commons majority you get situations such as the one in which Boris Johnson said he "would rather die in a ditch" than obey the law. On secondary legislation, see Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006, popularly known as "Henry VIII powers." 31.124.153.252 (talk) 13:37, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See parliamentary sovereignty. One advantage is that it avoids the problem of divided government. Alansplodge (talk) 10:56, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding does not the party of which the President is a member get its legislation through if it has a majority in both Senate and House of Representatives?: Maybe? If the President and a CLEAR, SUBSTANTIAL majority of BOTH houses of Congress all belong to the same party (which is to say 60% or more of each House), then yes, that would be true. In practice, that basically never happens. The last time in US history when such a situation existed was the 95th United States Congress from 1977-1979, when I was a toddler. In practice, you either have actual divided government (when one house, or the other, or both, is of a different party than the President), or you have a slim majority; by which certain members of each party become "Kingmakers", whereby conservative Democrats or liberal Republicans can break rank with their party to join the other party, breaking the majority. You see this in recent Congresses, where Republicans like Mitt Romney or Lynne Cheney or Susan Collins, or Democrats like Joe Manchin or Kyrsten Sinema frequently break with their own party, which means that even when those parties hold a bare majority (say 51-49), their parties are not secure in their agendas. This is even more of an issue in the Senate, where for all practical purposes a 60% majority is required for many votes to pass. In the UK, because the PM is from the majority party in Commons, that basically never happens. Indeed, the UK has trigger mechanisms for when the PM and Parliament are NOT working in unison; for example when a supply bill fails in Commons, the PM always resigns, as it signifies they are not unified. In the UK, not only is true divided government rare, it is conventionally impossible. The U.S. built divided government into the system as an expected norm. --Jayron32 14:42, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that political parties arrived in the U S around 1815. If they had been around before then the Founding Fathers might have set up something different. 2A00:23C4:570A:601:FDCE:26A1:A97A:C64B (talk) 11:20, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"15th century map" on display at the UN?

I saw this interesting map posted on Twitter, and according to the linked tweet, it's from the 15th century, which doesn't seem plausible on closer inspection since it shows what looks like Australia. Supposedly to be found at the UN. It looks to depict a flat earth with massive ice continents beyond Antarctica; as far as I can tell, these are labeled "Terra De Vista" and what looks like "Liberia" at lower left. Also an added continent in the Atlantic, maybe Atlantis. Does anyone have more context on this map and its origins? 24.43.123.69 (talk) 18:59, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

With (a somewhat accurate) Australia? No way it is from the 15th century. Blueboar (talk) 19:05, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that stood out to me too. Also I didn't see this close-up from the original poster earlier. It's got German place names and swastikas everywhere. Must be a work of Nazi pseudoscience and I highly doubt the claim that it's on display at the UN. I'd still be interested in knowing more about the context. 24.43.123.69 (talk) 19:14, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You should consider cross-posting this (i.e. a post with a link to this thread) on the Mathematics reference desk, as the "projection" on this map (if it is an actual calculated projection) is really weird. There are many types of map projections that result in a rough elliptical shape in which you can simply shift things so that both the North and South pole are in view, or roughly on the foci of the "ellipse" as in this map (though the shape is not very ellipse-like at all). But then this projection decides to map, in a large circle around the North pole, every line of latitude into a circle up until the Antarctic Circle, at which point I'm not sure how it's defined to get to the South pole. I honestly think all the ice around the edge is actually a decent, very rough sketch of Antarctica as we know it in this extremely exaggerated projection, however what disturbs me is the position of several other land masses (what is that chunk of China-looking stuff hanging off East Asia? Where is the rest of North America? Are those the Canary Islands off of Africa under some ridiculous distortion? Did Tierra del Fuego get pulled clockwise away from South America for some reason?)
The guess I will posit is that someone was having fun with esoteric map projection ideas, hand-drafting them out, and then sketched world maps onto them freehand from memory. Someone who found this mathematician/geographer's old notes decided this looked cool, copied it, colorized it, and turned it into a poster with a bunch of other stuff to make it look a little more hermetic-like without completely destroying its integrity. SamuelRiv (talk) 15:10, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As I said below, the map may actually be based on (a mirror flip of?) the lunar Maria, under the obscure conspiracy theory that the moon is a reflection of the Earth and shows lost continents (that may be Atlantis near Africa, and maybe Lemuria near Asia?). So it's not really a conventional map projection but an attempt to show correlations between the flat earth and the moon. Edit: andthis reddit post confirms it as a "moon/earth map"! Though a comment repeats the UN claim and also says it's of Soviet origin (despite the text appearing to be in German). 24.43.123.69 (talk) 16:53, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that, I didn't see your post before I put up mine, and clearly it makes mine look silly...ish. I mean, look at the lunar maria: that region looks nothing like the continents (you have to flip the moon image vertically to make it roughly match the map). Even though my theory about a mathematician playing around with globe projections drawing and world maps on their sketches from both bad memory and bad technique is not true, it at least portrays humanity with more sanity and sense than the Earth-moon map concept. SamuelRiv (talk) 05:56, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly connected with Welteislehre? AnonMoos (talk) 19:24, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like some kind of updated concave hollow earth from these people fiveby(zero) 05:18, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
On the top of the map there is some lettering which seems to spell Johannes. This may be a reference to Johannes Hörbiger, who was involved in the Welteistheory. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 07:31, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, that one's a biblical quote, from "John 14:6, 6:36". Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:09, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot find the "15th century claim" on Twitter. According to Google Image search the map appeared on the web just one day ago. Its projection resembles the Flag of the United Nations. Similar maps used by flat earth supporters show the earth surrounded by an ice wall like c:File:Flat earth.png. That vikings, nazis and aliens live behind that wall, is usually a feature of the hollow earth supporters, who believe these groups live inside the earth, but here obviously used by a flat earth supporter. The round dot on the top could be an entrance into the hollow earth, thus combining the two views. I estimate the map was made after 2015, but the publication date of yesterday makes 2022 a likely date for the map. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 13:35, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The "15th century" claim is in my first link.
Thanks for the Bible references, Fut.Perf! I couldn't quite read that part. The quotes are:
  • John 14.4: Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life.No one comes to the Father except through me."
  • John 6:36: But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
I'm also seeing tweets comparing the map to a "moon map" or "plasma reflection," which from what I can find is a recently emerged fringe theory which postulates that the moon is made of plasma and the lunar maria are reflections of the flat earth's continents, including "lost" continents and the land beyond the Antarctic "ice wall." If you compare the pictures they do match up pretty well, with the "known" Earth being off-center and the continents oddly shaped, plus the presence of Atlantis near Africa. So, probably more evident that this is a recent publication. 24.43.123.69 (talk) 14:07, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a 15th century map, and AFAIK, it isn't hanging in the UN. To be fair, it's been about 3 years since I last visited the UN, but I don't recall anything like this being on display in the publicly accessible areas of the UN, unless there was a traveling exhibit that was on display there for some purpose (sections of the public areas of the UN are sort of like a museum, and there are exhibits). --Jayron32 15:16, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that thats trying to show a flat earth. It looks to me more like a perspective view of a very large spherical earth, of which the classic "flat earth" is actually just a segment of the surface. Iapetus (talk) 09:29, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One very odd thing about the map which no-one has mentioned here is that the Atlantic is much wider than the Pacific! AnonMoos (talk) 06:00, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The only clear copy that I can find is on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT8Y62s8KT0). They also claim to be or to know the artist. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 06:19, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, that does look clearer, thank you! At one point the artist's name can be seen: S. Bini (or Biri). 24.43.123.69 (talk) 23:38, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The second gospel reference is John 656:

He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

These two verses are key foundations of Christian teaching. 31.124.153.252 (talk) 13:10, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Roman Catholic teaching, at least. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:24, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Whether symbolic, allegorical, or transubstantiation, pretty much all (excepting very minor sects of which do not add up to a significant portion of the totality of Christianity) Christian groups hold eucharist/communion as a major part of their faith. Which is to say, all Christians, in some manner, place major importance on it, even if what importance they place varies from faith to faith. --Jayron32 14:28, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A French annexation of Tunisia and Morocco

Why did France never outright annex Tunisia and Morocco like it did with Algeria? 68.4.99.100 (talk) 19:16, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For Morocco, see Algeciras Conference - they didn't want to upset the Germans too much. Alansplodge (talk) 22:04, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For Tunisia, it came under French control in a different manner, at a different time, and under a different organizational structure than Algeria. France invaded, occupied and directly colonized Algeria (see pied noir), integrating them fully within France by 1848. The French protectorate of Tunisia was a protectorate, not a colony or integrated into France. It was established in 1881 (a generation later than Algeria) under a different treaty structure that still left Tunisian local authorities in control (though under influence from Paris). The French Third Republic was in a different political situation than was the July Monarchy that established French Algeria. For various reasons, they didn't seek the same kind of direct integration into the French state that Algeria had undergone; not the least of which is that French Algeria was always a major political problem. From the moment it was fully integrated, it was a political nightmare domestically for France, most of the major political crises France faced came down to Algeria. Establishing a protectorate rather than fully integration was probably a wiser strategy in the long run. --Jayron32 13:40, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

August 24

Do all Indian subcontinent people know their caste or varna?

Okay, I'm sure it's not all, but do the great majority? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.152.125 (talk) 17:25, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is, aside from the ST people who may not have one? 24.130.152.125 (talk) 17:28, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia has an article titled Caste system in India which may be useful for you. You can read that article and arrive at your own conclusions. --Jayron32 18:07, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Varnas" are overall wide classifications, often theoretical. For many Indians, their "jati" is more important to them in their daily lives (and was the social group which traditionally regulated marriage). AnonMoos (talk) 22:43, 24 August 2022 (UTC) |[reply]

From what I've read (can't quote the exact source), most Indians can easily identify which caste a fellow Indian belongs to, based on their Surname. Certain surnames are generally associated with certain castes. I'm not sure that this rule will cover 100% of "caste identification", but it's a general starting point. Eliyohub (talk) 05:43, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Eliyohub -- I would suspect that many such surname associations may be somewhat regional, rather than nationwide... AnonMoos (talk) 05:56, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

August 25

Salman Rushdie's "heresy" - more offensive to Shi'a than to Sunnis?

Hearing recently about Salman Rushdie being stabbed reminded me of this old saga.

As I understand it, the fatwa calling Rushdie an infidel and a heretic (and calling for his death) was issued by the Shi'a / Shi'ite Ayatollah Khomeini. Likewise, the alleged assailant (who attacked Rushdie only a few weeks ago, as of this writing) was also Shi'a.

(Can somebody please clarify whether "Shi'a" or "Shi'ite" is more correct - or perhaps, which is more correct in which context? But please don't let this distract from the main question).

This raised interesting thoughts in my mind: Is Rushdie's supposed form of "heresy" more offensive to Shi'a than to Sunnis? And if yes, why so? (Islamic theology is not my specialty). Thanks in advance. Eliyohub (talk) 05:38, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The alleged incident of Muhammad revealing the Satanic Verses is contained in traditional Muslim sources; no one would have ever heard of it if it hadn't been transmitted by Muslims. But at least many Muslims rejected the tradition on their own initiative many centuries ago (as opposed to the traditions of Aisha's marriage age and consummation age, which very few Muslims questioned before non-Muslims started calling attention to them). AnonMoos (talk) 05:51, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, but that doesn't quite answer my specific question: Were/are Shi'a, historically and/or in modern times, more firm in "rejecting" said alleged "incident/legend" of those supposed "Muhammed revealing satanic verses in the Koran" than Sunnis were? Was Rushdie's book more offensive to Shia than to Sunnis - or did the outrage thoroughly cross Islam's sectarian divide? Eliyohub (talk) 06:40, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know anything about that personally. For whatever it's worth, Aqa Mahdi Puya was a Shi`ite, while most of the other names mentioned in the Satanic Verses#Reception in Muslim exegesis section were Sunnis. Also, Iran has a theocratic government, while most other Muslim-majority nations, even though some of them may zealously defend Islam, are not actually theocratic (except partially Saudi Arabia)... AnonMoos (talk) 09:30, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hijacking this thread: I was going to ask a new question about Rushdie, but seeing as this one is already here, I'll add mine. What is his current condition? Is he still in hospital? Is it confirmed that he has lost an eye? The news outlets don't seem to have carried any updates in recent days. --Viennese Waltz 08:36, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If no news outlet has the information, the fact that any one random frequenter of the reference desk would have the information is much smaller. Unless someone here has visited him in hospital, its unlikely that we'd have that information, insofar as the news also didn't have it. --Jayron32 11:49, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah my question was based on the premise that there might be a news outlet that has reported on his condition which I have missed. --Viennese Waltz 12:08, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This seems to be the latest that Google can find, dated 15 August. Alansplodge (talk) 14:00, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A C.S. Lewis book

In one of his books there is the text of an address he gave - I think to divinity students or at a seminary - it was about morality and majored on the temptation to join the 'in' crowd rather than be true to your own feelings of what is right. I know I have this book but can't recall its title. HELP!! Gurumaister (talk) 07:48, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know about the address, but he treated this subject extensively in the fictional adventures of the character Mark Studdock in his novel "That Hideous Strength"... AnonMoos (talk) 09:19, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for being helpful but this was an actual address that he gave to some students - it wasn't part of one of his novels. Gurumaister (talk) 09:24, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if it was "The Inner Ring", an address given to the students of King's College, University of London? --Antiquary (talk) 11:33, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you; that is it! And since I can now copy and paste the text, I don't need to know which book it is in. Gurumaister (talk) 11:57, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Good. If you prefer to read it on paper, as I would, you'll see from the top of the linked webpage that it was collected in Lewis's Transposition and Other Addresses. --Antiquary (talk) 12:08, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Berlin Conference

I was reading this Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/wxhlbi/berlin_conference_in_1884_what_they_wanted_vs/ Is there a source somewhere describing those claims? I'm particularly curious about the Ottoman and the Portuguese ones. Thank you! 79.46.7.189 (talk) 20:23, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article Berlin Conference mentions the claims of Portugal. The Ottomans were experiencing their "Sick man of Europe" phase, and, while I cannot find a direct source, likely were still trying to exert suzerainty claims over their former North African possessions; I'm pretty sure they objected to the UK's claims to Egypt, for example. --Jayron32 11:03, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) For Turkey, The Ottoman Scramble for Africa: Empire and Diplomacy in the Sahara and Hijaz has a lengthy preview on Google Books.
I'm not able to access the preview. --80.182.99.8 (talk) 14:57, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Try this? Alansplodge (talk) 16:52, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It still say: "No preview available". Maybe it is locked in my country. --80.182.99.8 (talk) 17:47, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, try this one (only the introduction, but it does touch on the Berlin Confrerence). Alansplodge (talk) 17:53, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Even better, you can read the whole book on archive.org. Alansplodge (talk) 18:00, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It works, thank you! --80.182.99.8 (talk) 20:31, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For Portugal, there is some info about the Berlin conference in The Third Portuguese Empire, 1825-1975: A Study in Economic Imperialism.
Alansplodge (talk) 11:12, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

August 26

Who is this?

Please identify the person in this photo. According to the twitter post where I found it, he is an American politician from Missouri. StellarHalo (talk) 05:45, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Jeff Smith (Missouri politician) (?) 2603:6081:1C00:1187:E102:EAF8:DD1:441A (talk) 08:08, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Access to restricted sources, newspaperarchive.com and University of Pennsylvania

I have just posted the following query in the talk page for BULLY BEEF. I would be happy to track track this down myself if I had access to the sources.

The article BULLY BEEF has the following phrase in the opinion of Lord Paget Henry William Paget, 1st Marquess of Anglesey, died in 1854, but it is still possible the 1862 reference is quoting him.

I've been unable to check the reference, which is an old newspaper, directly The Naval Estimates, Morning Post, 25 February 1862 It might be available on newspaperarchive.com A search also turned up: https://franklin.library.upenn.edu/catalog/FRANKLIN_9954970423503681 which requires a login ID

Nor can I locate an explanation of old mahogany. It might be Royal Navy slang.

I keep running up against sources which are not freely accessible so i'd appreciate advice on how to get past this roadblock.

I have replied at Talk:Bully beef#Which Lord Paget?. Please add further comments there, so that we're not double-posting. Alansplodge (talk) 13:17, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Author of question about access to limited sources

Sorry, I forgot the tildes to identify myself Humphrey Tribble (talk) 11:39, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

1990s cultural upheaval

Did the 1990s global cultural upheaval, which included Disney Renaissance, music galore, film proliferation through VHS and similar trends, get it's own overarching name, similar to Roaring Twenties? 212.180.235.46 (talk) 16:33, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Having lived through it - no. It wasn't a cohesive thing; I don't know of anyone referring to a "global cultural upheaval" in the 90s as if the various shifts were part of a greater whole. Matt Deres (talk) 17:09, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Alansplodge (talk) 21:58, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
212.180.235.46 -- The 1920s were a coherent era because they marked the final downfall of Victorian and Edwardian rigid restrictiveness and standards of propriety, so young people uninhibitedly enjoyed themselves, and women in particular wore outfits which would have given Victorian arbiters of good taste and morality the conniption fits. (In the U.S., there was also Prohibition, of course.) I don't really know what's culturally distinctive and significant about the 1990s other than grunge music and everybody wearing lumberjack shirts for 15 minutes. There was the rise of the consumer Internet of course, but people were still experimenting with what it would mean, and the quasi-monopolies of later decades (Amazon, Google, Facebook etc) either did not yet exist, or were not yet quasi-monopolies. However, there's a book The Naughty Nineties: The Triumph of the American Libido by David Friend (ISBN 978-0-446-55629-3) if you want to read it (I'm not too interested in it...) -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:20, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The original "Naughty Nineties" were the 1890s, although apparently in America, they were the "Gay Nineties". Alansplodge (talk) 22:57, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You have still not given an actual citation (even a publication of your own) for this thesis that you state as true in such a definitive manner. SamuelRiv (talk) 18:28, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If the photos of the 1920s Berlin puddle-jumping women which I linked to (wearing clothes which presented a very strong contrast with customary Victorian attire, and doing something which Victorian women basically never did) didn't persuade you, then there's various material at Roaring Twenties#Fashion, and especially Roaring Twenties#Sexuality of women during the 1920s, which you probably could have easily found yourself with a basic search. See also WP:BLUE. AnonMoos (talk) 22:44, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I stopped replying because all the points were made. You made some good ones. There was nothing I had to say on the matter that I hadn't said. However, it's a far cry from making a rigorous (or even semi-rigorous) survey of nearly a century of cultural shift that you're proclaiming to generalize, and from there teasing out causal and essential elements through quantitative and qualitative means (or however one might do such a study). It's the kind of claim that requires an actual rigorous study, in whatever field of scholarship you choose, preferably several, to lend support. Like I said, even your own work is fine, but just a few links on a discussion page is not a theory. SamuelRiv (talk) 18:15, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever, dude -- I do not have to do any personal research when I merely refer to the accepted conventional wisdom (i.e. the quasi-consensus of those who have much relevant knowledge). If you want to try to overthrow the accepted conventional wisdom, on the other hand, then you'll have to do quite a bit of research, though I'm not encouraged in that respect by your apparent ignorance of the strong discontinuities between the pre-WW1 era and the 1920s in cultural norms, women's fashion, etc. AnonMoos (talk) 23:38, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. If you want to read other people's voluminous research, then you could look at the first of the Middletown studies, intended to document the "changes in the white population of a typical American city between 1890 and 1925", some of those changes being the fairly wide availability of cars, formal social recognition of the single-couple "date", young women wearing somewhat loose-fitting dresses with hemlines almost to the knee, etc., which made the lives of young people rather different in 1925 from what they had been in 1890... AnonMoos (talk) 11:52, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There was definitely a marked disruption in the commercial distribution channels for time-based media products intended for mass consumption. The OP's examples fit that pattern. This is somewhat more specific and limited than suggested by "global cultural upheaval".  --Lambiam 20:36, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There was certainly some cultural (and political) upheaval at the beginning of the 1990s. "I saw the decade in, when it seemed the world would change in the blink of an eye, and if anything then there's your sign of the times" -- Right Here, Right Now (Jesus Jones song)  Card Zero  (talk) 23:30, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The 1990s were the prime period when Generation X came of age (not born, but became media consumers), with the tail end of the 1990s being when the transition to the Millennials came of age. The end of Gen X and the start of the Millenials; i.e. those being late teens-early 20s in the late 1990s are often called Xennials. --Jayron32 17:28, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

August 27

Incel vs excel

[17] I don't get this joke. If I infer that an excel is supposed to be the opposite of an incel, I still don't get it. Something to do with the Excel spreadsheet? Doesn't help. Commenter says it is geeky, but I'm geeky and still don't get it. Can someone explain? Thanks. 2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA (talk) 04:23, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Because Excel spreadsheets, if you type some number in, they might assume it's something or another, automatically convert it. So if you put in something that looks like a date format, ie. mm/dd/yy or whatnot, (see ISO date format for more on date formatting) Excel will convert it, even if it wasn't actually a date. Whereas incels, might assume that spending some time with someone was a romantic date when it wasn't because they don't go out much. It's not that funny when you have to explain it. Andre🚐 04:30, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Especially when the joke is kind of a stretch, using unrelated prefixes. Like the one about con being the opposite of pro, hence the opposite of Progress is Congress. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:30, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Courtesy link: incel. 2A00:23C4:570A:601:FDCE:26A1:A97A:C64B (talk) 11:04, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Andrevan:: "Explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog. You understand it better but the frog dies in the process." --Jayron32 17:24, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
hahaha, exactly Andre🚐 17:25, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The image is not meant to suggest that excel and incel are opposites. It is a Venn diagram; the blue lune in the middle represents the commonality between the two: both tend to make the "same" incorrect assumption (the same only by relying on two different meanings of the word date). It is a nerdy joke.  --Lambiam 16:35, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks all. Yeah I know what Venn diagrams are and what incels are and what the spreadsheet is, but I didn't know about the date conversion feature in the spreadsheet. Now I get it, and I do think it was funny. Heh. 2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA (talk) 20:42, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have to say that the follow-up cracked me up more ([18]).--Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:00, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A dialog from Henry James

In a lecture from 2015, sociologist Eva Illouz incidentally mentions a dialog from one of Henry James' novels, in which one (presumably female) character gets another (presumably male) to justifie his love for her, to which she replies that, had his love been true, he wouldn't have been able to answer so astutely. From which of James' work would that be, if any? 2A01:E0A:59A:3010:7948:B676:9137:15A2 (talk) 17:03, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

August 28

East india company

How many are there? Brit, french, dutch, dane, swede. Any others? 37.252.81.124 (talk) 16:46, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also Genoese, Portuguese and various Austrian. --Antiquary (talk) 17:59, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As listed in East India Company (disambiguation). Clarityfiend (talk) 03:37, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

August 29

Fighting inflation by printing less money?

To fighting inflation, instead of raising interest rates, can't we simply print less money? My understanding is that the Federal Reserve already has history of printing more money, why not less? I'm sure there's a good reason. I can't be the first one to think of this. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:50, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's rather complicated, since "Fractional-reserve banking" means there's more effective money in the economy than issued by the government, and there are various measurements of how much money there is (M1, M2, M3 etc). See Money supply... AnonMoos (talk) 19:37, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In particular, there is a lot more money than physical currency. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:20, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A commercial bank creates money when it grants a loan, while central banks can regulate how much they can lend (and thereby how much money they can create).[19][20] The limits imposed are usually more concerned with preventing bank failure than fighting inflation, but "money printing" (by a central bank) is a colloquial term for a form of what more formally is called "quantitative easing", specifically by purchasing securities on the open financial market and adding the amounts to the the bank reserves of commercial banks. Quantitative "squeezing" instead of easing may not be the best way to fight inflation; if the conditions are not right, it might lead to stagflation.  --Lambiam 09:31, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

1945-1991 Baltic maps

There is a bit of a recurring theme around State continuity of the Baltic states, with a ANI thread ongoing. One of the arguments being pushed is that there would have been a broad consensus on non-recognition of the integrations of the 3 Baltic SSRs into the Soviet Union. This really isn't my area of expertise, but the argument clashes with my own impressions of this time period. Engaging in some original research, I tried to go through some contemporary maps to see if there was any established practice to visually distinguish the Baltics from the rest of the Soviet Union,

...and so forth. My question is, are there examples of contemporary Cold War era maps that doesn't show the Baltics as integrated parts of the USSR? --Soman (talk) 20:11, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Because of Welles Declaration I think at least some US maps of the Soviet Union didn't include them, though my quick search for such maps was inconclusive. Other countries that diplomatically recognized the Soviet Union after the Baltic annexation ostensibly did so with Baltic states included. Brandmeistertalk 21:06, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Soman -- In the 1980s, I saw physical paper maps issued by the U.S. government; they didn't show the Baltics as separate independent states, but there was special boundary line marking, and notes on the map that the U.S. didn't recognize Soviet annexation... AnonMoos (talk) 00:01, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

August 30

"No body, no parole" laws - do they actually work?

Where I live, there's something of a debate going on around introducing legislation, whereby in the case of a murder conviction in the absence of a body (a relatively uncommon occurrence, but it definitely can and does happen), the murderer should be denied parole until he/she reveals the location of his/her victim's remains. The obvious purpose is to help provide "closure" for the victim's family.

An obvious issue here, is that by the time the murderer is up for parole (murder sentences can last decades), any remains of their victims are likely to have deteriorated beyond identifiable recognition, making any recovery impossible, even if the murderer reveals the location. (though after conviction and exhaustion of all appeals, there would be no need for the murderer to wait until parole eligibility comes to reveal the victim's location). And some murderers may themselves not know where their victim's body is (e.g. they dumped it "somewhere" in a lake or river). But lets put those issues aside, as they are not germane to my specific question.

My question is, in those jurisdictions which have adopted such laws, have they, at least to some degree, worked? Like, has there been a reduction in the number of victims' bodies subsequently recovered, in cases where the murderer was convicted in the absence of a body?

The main difficulty I can see here is the limited data-set, such successful "no body" murder convictions being the exception, rather than the rule. But can anybody track down actual experiences of jurisdictions which have experimented with such laws, and how well they did or did not work? Or research on this question? Eliyohub (talk) 12:50, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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