Talk:Charlemagne

Correct Original Name Still Missing

The original name, in Latin letters something like "Carl", "Karol", "Charol", or further latinized "Karolus Magnus", is still missing. Instead: "Charles (the Great)", which is completely ahistorical, as both, modern name "Charles", as well as the delayed creation "Charlemagne", are kind of mutiliated dog latin versions of a name, contemporary Gallo-Roman clergy men were unable to spell in Latin letters and unable to pronounce adequately. From 800 A.D. when "Karolus Rex" was crowned in Rome, it took another 800 years to establish "Académie Francaise" which started in the year 1600 A. D. to create a language that lead to what we now know as "modern French". 88.66.65.116 (talk) 11:58, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

The original name is in the article (if you look at notes a and b after "Charles the Great" in the lede. If you want to change anything you'll need to provide sources, not just say stuff. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:28, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

What I understand he is trying to tell you: Latin-script letters do not reflect the original pronunciation. This is true. And: Today's names like "Charles" would not have been understood by their supposed name carriers in that time. That's a fact. 136.219.16.35 (talk) 12:50, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes but the modern names Charles I, Charles the Great and Charlemagne obviously have to be the most prominent since that is what people call him today. The two notes after "Charles the Great" clarify more contemporary names; note A gives the Latin Karolus or Carolus, note B gives the Frankish Keril, Karil or Karal. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:22, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Well the text says "He was named Charles in French and English, Carolus in Latin, after his grandfather, Charles Martel". This might be read as indication that he had been named such during his life span. But obviously, these names and other names had been given centuries after his death. So there should be a hint, that modern names were given by historians way after his death. 136.219.16.35 (talk) 09:25, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Should not the Frankish name also be given in the name section, along with the English, French, and Latin? He WAS, after all, Frankish, was he not? Or was Gallo-Romance his native tongue, and King of the Franks merely his title? Firejuggler86 (talk) 07:46, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I'd also like to recommend mentioning the original Frankish name, as Frankish was his native tongue and that of his parents, relatives and most of his closest friends. 188.104.34.212 (talk) 21:23, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

In fact, his name was not today's "Charles" - especially not regarding modern English version with a pronounciation falsely including an "s" or "z" sound. Modern French "Charles" is a little bit closer to the original name, but doesn't match it either. 188.99.27.209 (talk) 09:11, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

There should be some more explanation about his Frankish name und the original pronunciation... 188.104.33.45 (talk) 14:22, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

John Julius Norwich as a reliable source?

Norwich is described as "a popular historian, travel writer, and television personality" spreading British national narratives ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Julius_Norwich ). Should he be seen as a reliable and independent source? What degree of knowledge did he really have on situation of 8th and 9th century continental Europe, e .g. on Charlemagne's thoughts on Empress Irene? 132.19.202.40 (talk) 10:42, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Honestly speaking, obviously Norwich didn't have a clue. Further, he didn't have any secret knowledge of historical details such as Charlemagne's thoughts on Empress Irene. But he had been a very popular TV personality in GB for years - and he still seems to have fans & devotees. 188.104.34.212 (talk) 21:32, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Revision needed for Jewish section

Given that my edit will surely be removed, we need to talk about how the Jewish section is full of contradictions and references without any academic credibility. I noticed that someone had already tried to correct it only for it to be removed being accused of Vandalism when such person did accurately portray the life of Jews in Charlemagne’s kingdom.

Going back to my point about academic credibility, the websites cited to somehow prove Charlemagne invited Jews to live in his kingdom:

a) Do not mention letters b) Do not give where the letters can be found c) Are outright bogus websites without any academic substance

It is particularly concerning how dismissive many were to the previous edit by Hansel Reinhart when this was the version prior to an edit around 2013 which seemed to face no scrutiny or academic scepticism to his drastic changes. Warmrain123 (talk) 06:34, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

I just checked the three sources which were claimed to suport the deleted content. None of them contains support for the existence of letters inviting Jews to move to or live in Charlemagne's realm. Haploidavey (talk) 14:38, 6 April 2021 (UTC) And here's the disputed material, plus the inline citation that doesn't support it:

"Letters have been credited to him that invited Jews to settle in his kingdom."

The better of these sources claims that Charlemagne invited Jews from abroad to form trading communities as his clients, within his realm, (thus founding the early Ashkenazi population in Provence and what became Rhineland/southern Germany); so I've reinstated an amended version in the article to reflect this. But it needs a decent source, so I've also tagged it as needing citation.

PS - Ended up using Scheindlin (see 1 above) as a scholarly source, if a wee bit over-condensed for an OUP publication (and seems to have moved publisher.

Is there really scientific proof on that? We should not spread legends, so it is better to mention only ABSOLUTELY reliable sources. Yes, legends might be more seductive than facts, I know ;-) 132.30.81.117 (talk) 10:51, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

It seems to be a pure fancy. There is absolutely no historical proof on this, but obviously it is perceived as an attractive and very cute legend. 188.104.34.212 (talk) 21:27, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

References

Hey, does anyone want to add in anything about the broadway play Pippin?

It is about Charlemagne's eldest son, Pippin, as well as his grandmother, Bertha, as well as other people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doglover truthfinder (talk • contribs) 00:35, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Charlemagne's Children

I am myself aware of two legends surrounding Charlemagne's children:

One involves a knight, D'Eon de Hambys, who - while on the way to Charlemagne's court - attacked and killed a man who attacked him and who, he later discovers, was one of Charlemagne's sons. He is sent by Charlemagne to acquire the Saracen King's teeth and beard.

A second legend involves a girl who falls in love with a knight she is later separated from for years. She is found by Charlemagne and taken to Paris, a city that she recognizes. It is then revealed that she is the missing daughter of Charlemagne, who has been searching for her for years. Taken to his court, she escapes disguised as a bard and then sings of her life to the knight, who revealed that he has never stopped searching for her and still loves her. She then tells him who she is and they marry. In the lay in which this story is recounted, she is referred to only as Maite ("Maiden" in Old French, apparently).Glammazon (talk) 15:10, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh those are all nonesense stories. Karl as his kids had old german names. Those are probably stories made up hundreds and hundreds of years later to fit some french narrative. 178.24.247.1 (talk) 23:42, 23 June 2022 (UTC)