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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Kusurija (talk | contribs) at 10:37, 27 September 2022 (→Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 September 2022). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The heading above is a link to the archived RfC: Talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_9#RfC on "Supported by" in the infobox for Ukraine, closed 9 June 2022.

See also earlier RfC: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?: closed 6 March 2022.

Both RfCs were closed with "no consensus". Cinderella157 (talk) 08:27, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC about inclusion of "Peace efforts" section

Should this article include a "Peace efforts" section? If a "Peace efforts" section was to be added, which form should it take? –LordPickleII (talk) 11:34, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Background: This article (2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine) included a section titled "Peace efforts" until 11 August 2022, when it's content was moved to the newly created 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine reactions. There has been a main article about the peace talks at 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations since 8 March 2022.

Explanatory note: This RfC is composed of two questions, but each is considered independently of the other; so a reply to Question B does not imply that the editor supports Question A. The options suggested for Question B are only initial forms, to be later built upon if neccessary.


Question A: Should this article include a "Peace efforts" section?


Question B: If a "Peace efforts" section was to be added, which form should it take? Option 1 or Option 2 (see below)?

Option 1 (previous version, until August 11) Option 2 (newly suggested)
Main article: 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations

Peace negotiations between Russia and Ukraine took place on 28 February,[1] 3 March,[2] and 7 March 2022,[3] in an undisclosed location in the Gomel Region on the Belarus–Ukraine border,[4] with further talks held on 10 March in Turkey prior to a fourth round of negotiations which began on 14 March. The Ukrainian foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba stated on 13 July that peace talks are frozen for the time being.[5] On 19 July, former Russian President and current Deputy head of the Russian Security Council, Dmitry Medvedev, said: “Russia will achieve all its goals. There will be peace – on our terms.”[6]

Main article: 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations

Peace talks led by Turkey were held between 28 February and July 2022. As of July 2022, peace talks were frozen indefinitely after the failure of both parties to reach a settlement. On April 9, United Kingdom's then-president, Boris Johnson, visited Kiev during the second phase of the peace talks without informing the Ukrainians in advance. On 5 May 2022, Ukrainska Pravda, a Ukrainian newspaper, published an article that it claims to be cited by sources close to Zelensky saying that the British prime minister brought two simple messages. The first is: "Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with." And the second is that "even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not."[7] Fiona Hill, a veteran US diplomat who served as the US National Security Council’s senior director for Europe and Russia in the Donald Trump administration, published an article on the Foreign Affairs saying that Russia and Ukraine could have reached a peace agreement in April, according to which the Russian forces would withdraw to the pre-invasion line and Ukraine would commit not to seek to join NATO, instead receiving security guarantees from a number of countries. Hill wrote that the "peace talks were apparently conducted by the Russian side in good faith."[8] Experts, such as John Mearsheimer, think that the collective west's goal in the Russo-Ukrainian war is "the conflict will settle into a prolonged stalemate, and eventually a weakened Russia will accept a peace agreement that favors the United States and its NATO allies, as well as Ukraine."[9]

Please voice your opinion below. –LordPickleII (talk) 11:34, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

@Slatersteven: Can you maybe format this to more clearly indicate on which question you are commenting? Just so it is easier for the closer to evaluate later. Also, it would be helpful to give a very brief overview of your arguments again, as this is not a vote, and the closer might not be able to find all previous points made in the other discussion(s). And again, you may (but don't have to) also voice your opinion on the Options for Question B, even if you don't think we should have a section. Think of it as chosing the "lesser evil", only for the case that consensus would develop to include it. –LordPickleII (talk) 12:17, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have said no to a section, how much clear can I be. I am not going to give my support to something I do not support. If this RFC assumes the answer is "yes we must have a section" it is badly flawed and should thus be withdrawn. Slatersteven (talk) 12:23, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah sorry, I guess it was clear enough, but anyway thanks for amending. And no, you don't have to vote on the second question. I am just hoping enough people oppose Option 2 so it never happens (tbh I'd rather have no section than it), but I think you have made your point clear on that below. –LordPickleII (talk) 13:20, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Slatersteven: would you mind briefly summarising the reasons why you're against a section? Alternatively could you point me to which parts of the above discussions are relevant? It'll save me some time trying to understand your argument by scrolling through the rather large discussions further up the page. Jr8825 • Talk 16:39, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, I can add no more to what I have said in two threads above. I see no reason why we need this. Slatersteven (talk) 16:50, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's not particularly helpful! Skimming through the above threads, am I right in understanding your argument against a section on peace negotiations is 1) that this article is only about a specific "military campaign", not the war itself and 2) that the negotiations are unimportant because they failed? Jr8825 • Talk 17:12, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I was trying to not create another cluttered RFC with umpteen responses for one post. But OK, I oppose this as this article is about the invasion of 2022, not the wider war, and yes also because they failed, so have had no impact on this invasion. Nor do they tell us anything about this invasion, and any context would best be covered in the other articles. Moreover, it is unlikely that these will be the last negotiations and (even if we accept their presence here) only the last one is really relevant. It is better covered elsewhere, with a see also here. Slatersteven (talk) 17:21, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've continued this thread below in the new discussion section as there are things I'd like to discuss in more detail without crowding out other editors' opinions. Jr8825 • Talk 20:34, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose option 2 as a violation of NPOV. Slatersteven (talk) 13:29, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question A: Support. My primary reasoning is that per WP:SS, this is expected and allowed, and we have Template:Main to link to the main article. The counter-argument of "content should not be duplicated" doesn't make sense to me, and I know of no guideline or policy that would confirm it. And per WP:CORRECTSPLIT, point 6.: Create a good summary of the subtopic at the parent article.
My secondary point is that while the underlying conflict is older, the invasion is definitely the newest development. Peace talks only really happened because of it; and now the article is on the main page "in the news". Per WP:AUDIENCE (and WP:RF), people come to this article first, and expect a good overview. They currently would have to scroll down to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Reactions, then out of the 6 (!) options given click on 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine reactions, and then scroll down again to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine reactions#Peace efforts, from where they are finally pointed to 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations, the main article. Far too complicated, as the question of peace is an obvious and acute one, not a side note to be discussed only for the underlying conflict.
Question B: Option 1. I strongly reject Option 2 as a gross violation of WP:NPOV, as it distorts the facts through WP:CHERRYPICKING from only parts of a few (reliable) sources, while completely ignoring most others. It does also not align with the main article, and so would violate the summary that would be expected. Editors may have suggested it in good faith; but it basically repeats Russian propaganda efforts that "the West" had prevented peace.
Option 1 on the other hand is what we have had before, and for a long time; it is concise, neutral, and gives a good overview. –LordPickleII (talk) 12:08, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Addendum: The last sentence of Option 1 should be struck, as per Mx. Granger, since with it it reads slightly biased as well. –LordPeterII (talk) 14:26, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you regarding the fact that Option 2 is kind of cherry picking but I think that the article isn't satisfying the NPOV in the first place. It already chose its position in this issue, picking a side and picking on the other. All the details aren't attributed to the RS as it should. It doesn't represent multiple POVs. Treating Kremlin announcements as disinformation and fake news snd conspiracy theories while the American government's as solid facts. This violates Wikipedia's five pillars. This isn't right. This is not what Wikipedia is made for. Wikipedia is not a propaganda arm for neither sides. I think we all, as Wikipedia volunteers, should respect the reader to make their opinion on the matter by complying with Wikipedia's policies. It's for the reader to pick the side they feel is right. Not us to play their mind by twisting facts to pass our agenda because we think it's right.
By adding this section I tried to represent the other side's POV. And I'm keen to hear your thoughts to improve it. Thank you for voicing your opinion. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 12:33, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:FALSEBALANCE and also Boris Johson is not (and never was) president. Slatersteven (talk) 12:36, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Is the Eastern world pov a minority and extraordinary view? There are only two sides in this fight, the west and the east, how is the other side a minority? Formal governmental announcements aren't extraordinary. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 12:51, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We aren't to decide that the Western governmental claims are solid facts while the Russian's and Chinese are not. One either equally treat all governments' announcements as facts or fake news. But to treat the side that one agree with differently and say that all other POVs are extraordinary then claiming that they are trying to avoid making false balance is an utter cherry picking and a fallacy. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 13:01, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are only two sides in this fight, yes; but we are on neither, we are Wikipedia. As for POVs in the press, there are several: US, European, Russian, Indian, Chinese, Middle Eastern, etc. We do not chose to simply represent the Russian POV because they deserve it. "Not us to play their mind by twisting facts to pass our agenda because we think it's right" – I think that is exactly what Option 2 does, so I somewhat agree with you. Also, this RfC is not about the aricle in general, but about the section, specifically. We cannot achieve a balanced view by presenting one POV in parts, and another POV in others. We need NPOV everywhere; Slatersteven correctly pointed to WP:FALSEBALANCE, which is policy. Feel free to vote for one of the options in Question B, but maybe better give the reasonings in your own vote, not in a reaction to mine (it's more difficult to check later). –LordPickleII (talk) 13:09, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To add, option 2 only gives the Russian side, so violates NPOV. Slatersteven (talk) 13:12, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question 1: support having a section for peace negotiations. We do need a section to summarize the long main article. Readers need this section to decide whether they are interested in reading the main article or settle for the summary in this section.

Question 2: option 2 Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 12:19, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. To both options. There are already two articles on Wikipedia which contain this information at 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine reactions#Peace efforts and also at 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations. It appears redundant to add a third copy of the same material for a third time at Wikipedia in this article. Does Wikipedia need a third version of this section already existing on two other Wikipedia articles. The present article on the invasion is already over 400Kb in size and super-adding a third copy of the same material in such a large article seems a poor choice. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:26, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Peace negotiations aren't "reactions" to the invasion. The brief summary at the reactions article (identical to option 1 presented here) should be added here and removed from there. The peace negotiations article is the WP:SPINOFF article that we're looking to summarise in the appropriate "overview meta-article" (to use the wording of the guidance), which in my view is this one. Jr8825 • Talk 10:31, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question A: Support. It is standard to summarise a sub-article in a main article about a subject, just like Zaporizhzhia#Russian_invasion_(2022) in Zaporizhzhia, which is a summary of Russian occupation of Zaporizhzhia Oblast (needs updating). This RfC was called because one editor used abstract arguments against including a section summarising peace efforts. Another editor argued that the peace efforts aren't going anywhere (true, but besides the point). As we enter into the next (and hopefully, final) phase of the war, peace efforts are becoming one of the main issues that sources are reporting on this subject, and that's why we should include them in this article.
Question B: Option 1 is better than Option 2 because the commentary about Boris Johnson is unwieldy and polarising. As Ukrainians, we don't need a Brit to tell us that a peace deal with Putin isn't worth anything, and the earlier claim that we came close to an agreement with Russia in Istanbul [1] was reported as refuted by insiders [2]. I think the commentary from Hill and Mearsheimer belongs more in the main article, and they should be called commentators, not experts. I also think there should be a sentence about Zelenskyy's call on Putin for direct talks, which the Russians have dismissed. IntrepidContributor (talk) 15:29, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question A: Strong support. Per WP:SS and WP:SPINOFF, this article is a high-level overview of the invasion and efforts to negotiate an end to the fighting are an important aspect of the topic; a brief section summarising the negotiations (providing an overview of the content at the sub-article) is therefore essential for our readers. This is what hatnotes such as {{main}} are for. There are perennial problems about the overlapping scope of this article and Russo-Ukrainian War, but that's outside the remit of this RfC, and this article remains the main place for content relating to the intensification of the conflict in 2022.
Question B: Weak support option 1, which I think is a suitably succinct summary of the main points, although the text shouldn't be seen as locked-in by consensus, rather as a basic building block. However, I believe the Bucha massacre should be mentioned, as I recall a number of RS stating that its discovery was a significant factor in the breakdown of talks. Strong oppose option 2, which has pretty serious WP:WEIGHT issues to my eyes. In particular, far too much emphasis is put on Johnson's actions, based on one Ukrainian source, which goes against the wider coverage in international press that I've read, which doesn't put anywhere near as much emphasis on Johnson's individual role (and as IntrepidContributor's points out, it could also be seen as devaluing the agency Ukraine has in making its own negotiating decisions, based on an exceptional claim without exceptionally strong sourcing). Additionally, the opinions of two commentators, a U.S. diplomat and Mearsheimer are undue. (I don't recognise the diplomat, but Mearsheimer holds minority views on the conflict, such as arguing NATO was largely responsible for the war, and therefore again due weight applies here – Mearsheimer's analysis is noteworthy but not suitable for a brief, broad summary of negotiations, it is only suitable for the main article on negotiations, and should be given coverage proportional to more mainstream analyses. Jr8825 • Talk 16:32, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question A: no opinion. I can see arguments for including this, I can see arguments for leaving it out. It ultimately led to nothing, after all.
Question B: support option 1. Option 2 is too long, it implies that Boris Johnson stopped Kyiv from surrendering (excuse me, "ending the bloodshed"), and I see no reason to give Mearsheimer's opinion so much prominence when he's basically been wrong about everything. He continues to claim that Putin doesn't want to take over all of Ukraine when that is exactly what Putin says he wants and completely ignores the fact that Ukraine is a country with agency and security concerns of its own. He can be included in some sort of "reactions" article where we give the "it's-Nato's-fault!" crowd's opinion, but certainly not here in the main article.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:44, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Changed vote on Question A Per Cinderella157, this deserves at most a very brief mention in passing, not a dedicated section. If we're including one though I still prefer option 1 for question B.--Ermenrich (talk) 00:55, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Where else in this article would you summarise the negotiations? I don't see any existing section where a brief summary would logically belong. Jr8825 • Talk 10:35, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Ermenrich: But have you actually read those guidelines? Both WP:SS and WP:SPINOUT explicitly suggest we need a section, not the opposite! See below for quotes from them. –LordPeterII (talk) 14:44, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mx. Granger: I can actually see your point about the last sentence. Yes, it should be removed; better to just have the bare facts, and not any statements and opinions. –LordPeterII (talk) 14:22, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • No both as written. It would appear to me that some editors forget that we should be writing in summary style and that when we have a sub-article dealing with a particular aspect of content, detail like when Putin last farted and what Zelenskyy had for breakfast belongs there. The main article need only mention in passing a WP:SPINOUT - which it does without the need for a separate section. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:05, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Cinderella157: what's your view on including a brief negotiations section generally (Question A)? Jr8825 • Talk 10:27, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Was I not sufficiently clear in saying "No both"? Cinderella157 (talk) 11:35, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    ok how about you calm down? Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 11:44, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Cinderella157: I only asked as I thought you might be responding to both of the options presented for Question B, rather than both questions. I don't see why summary style/using sub-articles means we shouldn't have a section summarising negotiations. If anything, I see it as a reason for having a brief section, as it ties together this article with the spin-off much better than relegating it to a "see also" link: the guidance at SPINOUT says "when you split a section from a long article into an independent article, you should leave a short summary of the material that is removed along with a pointer to the independent article". Regarding excess detail, this article currently includes miscellaneous minutiae such as the sale of 18 "CAESAR self-propelled howitzer systems, mounted on the Renault Sherpa 5 6×6 chassis" (I'll have a go at cutting the foreign military sales section soon, if nobody else does first, as it's a section I've highlighted in the past, too). This reminds me of the earlier discussion we had regarding the background section; it was sliced up and squeezed into a couple of sentences in order to save space even though there's plenty of less important fat to trim elsewhere. There's plenty of room for cuts that will provide space for a brief summary of the efforts to make (and occasions when) negotiators from both sides sat down. Jr8825 • Talk 13:02, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jr8825: I was just about to write the same, about the SPINOUT quote. Not that you can't be against it, Cinderella157, but your argument seems self-contradictory, with the policy you cited stating that we need such a subsection. This is the same for WP:SS (summary style), which you alluded to, but not linked. Quote from there (specifically WP:SUMMARYHATNOTE): Longer articles are split into sections, each usually several good-sized paragraphs long. [...] Ideally, many of these sections will eventually provide summaries of separate articles on the subtopics covered in those sections. And also: In the parent article, the location of the detailed article for each subtopic is indicated at the top of the section by a hatnote link such as "Main article", generated by the template {{Main|name of child article}}. (my emphasis in bold). This is exactly what's being discussed here, whether or not we should adhere to that. Article size is a concern I understand, but every pointer to policy or guidelines I have seen brought up seems to only support the opinion for a section. –LordPeterII (talk) 14:41, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Supporting Cinderella and Slatersteven on this. Wikipedia has multiple tools and procedures for dealing with this type of situation. Wikipedia does not need to re-duplicate articles three times in different places merely for the sake of making redundant copies with pointers and redirects to the same information content. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:25, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Err... no offense @ErnestKrause, but would you consider acknowledging the points above? Wikipedia has multiple tools and procedures for dealing with this type of situation – yes, those we pointed to above. If you can point to a different guideline that supports your view, it would help your cause! It's a little irritating to constantly hear "clearly, this should not be done", when we clearly have guidelines that disagree. That was a similar issue in another RfC I started, where people would give their opinion, without being able to back it up. You guys have had some valid arguments otherwise, but "article content must not be duplicated" is a really weak one at present. –LordPeterII (talk) 17:48, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Err... fully supporting Cinderella and Slatersteven on this. Both of them have articulated on this issue clearly and straightforwardly. Possibly you should re-read their statements which are really strong in comparison to your weak reading of their well-stated and well-directed points. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:56, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The various guidance being cited would assume that a spinout article has been created from a section of the main article that has evolved to be of substantial size. This is not the case here. 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations was created here on 8 March 22. This version of this article (the main article) immediately prior to that creation has no such corresponding section and doesn't even mention the talks as far as I can see. The advice is not consistent with the particulars of this circumstance. Perhaps we should refer to 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations as a spinoff rather than a spinout. If one were to summarise 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations into this article it would read: Unsuccessful peace negotiations were held at A [place] from W-X [dates] and B from Y-Z [or similar]. In the greater scheme of things (this, the main article) these efforts to date (by virtue of their lack of success) are litte if anything more than a footnote and should be trated here accordingly. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:40, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why must the peace efforts be successful in order include them as a section here? It won't be possible to lift the sanctions (on which we have a section) until Russia signs a peace deal with Ukraine [3], so it is not a minor detail. IntrepidContributor (talk) 08:48, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Cinderella157: Thanks, I can actually follow your argumentation here! I still don't quite agree, but it's a lot more helpful also for other people to have it spelled out thus. –LordPeterII (talk) 11:07, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question A: No per Cinderella and WP:PROPORTION. The failed peace talks were not significant enough to warrant a section the article. I'd suggest a single sentence along the lines of "Unsuccessful peace talks were held between Russia and Ukraine during February and March." instead. Details like the locations and dates of the talks, the number of rounds, comments from either on whether they were open to more negotiations, etc. don't add anything important; the talks didn't produce any results and until another round of negotiations happen there's nothing new to report.
Question B: Weak Support for Option 1 As mentioned, I think the detail's excessive, but if we are going to have a section it's an alright summary. Oppose Option 2 on NPOV and WEIGHT grounds. I agree with Jr8825's explanation of the problems with that option. --RaiderAspect (talk) 07:19, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Another argument claiming that the the "failed" peace efforts are a "minor aspect" (per WP:PROPORTION) when we have a huge amount of published material on the subject, including the widely reported statements from Putin, Lavrov, Nebenzya and Gatilov dismissing the possibility of a deal. There was also the alleged Abramovich poisoning during the peace talks in March, which gained very wide coverage. Either editors haven't read the WP:PROPORTION guidance, or the published material on the subject. IntrepidContributor (talk) 08:59, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously take this with a pinch of salt per WP:GOOG and the impracticality of doing a more scholarly ngrams test, but a Google trends comparison of different aspects of the Ukraine war does show strong demand among internet searchers for information on peace prospects. Jr8825 • Talk 11:59, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question A: support, I fully agree with Mx. Granger (and others). The peace process to negotiate an end to the fighting are an important aspect of the topic. And that it is standard to summarise a paragraph in a main article about a subject with the relevant link. Question B: It doesn't matter so much now, it can be agreed later. I was mainly concerned with returning to the state before the paragraph, which was there for almost entire existence of the article, was removed without any agreement by the two users. Anyway, I think that both have cherrypicked quotes, it would be better with just the facts (like that the negotiations were for now suspended).Jirka.h23 (talk) 06:58, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for Question A, for Option 1 and Oppose for Option 2, as expressed by other editors. --NoonIcarus (talk) 11:43, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

  • I'd like to discuss the objections to a "peace negotiations" section that Slatersteven raises above, namely: (1) "this article is about the invasion of 2022, not the wider war", (2) "they failed, so have had no impact on this invasion" and (3) "it is unlikely that these will be the last negotiations". I'd like to offer some responses and hear others' opinions on them.
Regarding (1), this article already covers the broader aspects of the war since 24 February (e.g. foreign support, humanitarian/economic impact, global reactions). Its scope is more comparable to our article on 2003 invasion of Iraq, a distinct stage of intense fighting within the broader Iraq War, than it is articles on military campaigns within consistently intense wars (e.g. Operation Barbarossa). The 2003 invasion article covers the prelude, legality, looting, responses etc.; equally, negotiations to end the current fighting in Ukraine, which briefly made up a significant part of media coverage of the invasion for a period of a few weeks, seem within scope here. I recognise the distinction between this article and Russo-Ukrainian War is currently ambiguous (a point I acknowledged above), but that's a topic of discussion for another time – we should be making a decision based on this article as it stands, and the negotiations we're discussing were uniquely in response to the 2022 invasion: negotiations revolved around the occupation of large parts of Ukrainian territory and were very different in substance to previous negotiations centred around the War in Donbas, for example.
Regarding (2), I think if we apply the 10-year test it's likely future readers will want to know about the failed negotiations that took place early in the invasion but quickly broke down for various reasons (accusations of Russian bad faith, anger after the Bucha revelations). The previous negotiations are a part of the history of the invasion, even if they turn out to be a relatively minor part; for example, their failure may represent a moment when it became clear the invasion was developing into a longer-term conflict. They may also impact future negotiations.
Regarding (3), I think the best option is to write a summary of the peace negotiations that took place that we can then adjust when future negotiations take place. It's impossible to predict when and how this might occur, but we can easily reduce the coverage of the previous negotiations to something like "early in the war, a series of failed negotiations took place etc. etc., after XX/XX/2023, negotiations were reopened". Keen to hear others' responses to these points. Jr8825 • Talk 20:34, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have said all I wish to say above, and have no more to add. Slatersteven (talk) 13:44, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Hopkins, Valerie (28 February 2022). "Initial talks between Russia and Ukraine yield no resolution". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Archived from the original on 14 March 2022. Retrieved 16 March 2022.
  2. ^ Reevell, Patrick; Hutchinson, Bill (2 March 2022). "2nd round of talks between Russia and Ukraine end with no cease-fire". ABC News. Archived from the original on 14 March 2022. Retrieved 15 March 2022.
  3. ^ "Ukraine and Russia hold third round of talks". Deutsche Welle. Reuters, Agence France-Presse, Deutsche Presse-Agentur. 7 March 2022. Archived from the original on 14 March 2022. Retrieved 15 March 2022.
  4. ^ Roshchina, Olena (28 February 2022). Переговори делегацій України та Росії почалися [Negotiations between the delegations of Ukraine and Russia began]. Українська правда [Ukrayinska Pravda] (in Ukrainian). Archived from the original on 14 March 2022. Retrieved 7 March 2022. Деталі: Переговори відбуваються на Гомельщині на березі річки Прип'ять. Із міркувань безпеки точне місце організатори переговорів не називають. [Details: Negotiations are taking place in the Gomel region on the banks of the Pripyat River. For security reasons, the organisers of the talks did not name the exact location.]
  5. ^ "Russia-Ukraine war latest: Ukraine rules out ceasefire deal that involves ceding territory; officials to seek grain export agreement – Latest Active News". Retrieved 14 July 2022.
  6. ^ "Peace will be on Moscow's terms, says former president". TheGuardian.com. 20 July 2022. Retrieved 20 July 2022.
  7. ^ ROMAN ROMANIUK (5 May 2022). "Possibility of talks between Zelenskyy and Putin came to a halt after Johnson's visit - UP sources". Ukrainska Pravda.
  8. ^ Fiona Hill and Angela Stent (September–October 2022). "The World Putin Wants". Foreign Affairs.
  9. ^ John J. Mearsheimer (August 17, 2022). "Playing With Fire in Ukraine". Foreign Affairs.

Invasion section structure

I think we should make some changes to how we structure the invasion section for clarity, chronological flow and a better reflection of the sources, and would like to invite feedback. The original thread about this has unfortunately been derailed by a long-winded discussion about reversion and conduct, rather than the substance of the proposals themselves. I'm starting this thread with a clearer breakdown of the changes to facilitate discussion and make participation easier.

A version of the page including the proposed section titles can be viewed here. The current sections are on the left, in yellow, and the proposed sections are on the right, in blue.

−
Invasion and resistance —First phase: Invasion of Ukraine (24 February – 7 April) ——First phase – Northern front ——First phase – North-eastern front ——First phase – Southern front ——First phase – Eastern front —Second phase: South-eastern front and counteroffensives (8 April – present) ——Second phase – Mykolaiv–Odesa front ——Second phase – Dnipro–Zaporizhzhia front ——Second phase – Fall of Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk ——Second phase – Fall of Mariupol ——Second phase – Attacks in Crimea ——Second phase – Ukrainian Kharkiv counteroffensive —Western Ukraine —Air warfare —Naval warfare —Russian nuclear threats —Popular resistance
+
Invasion and resistance —First phase: Initial invasion (24 February – 7 April) ——Northern front ——North-eastern front ——Southern front ——Eastern front —Second phase: Donbas offensive (8 April – July) ——Fall of Mariupol ——Fall of Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk ——Other regions ———Dnipro–Zaporizhzhia ———Mykolaiv–Odesa —Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant crisis —Ukrainian counteroffensives (August – present) ——Attacks in Crimea ——Kherson ——Kharkiv —Air warfare —Naval warfare —Russian nuclear threats —Popular resistance

Jr8825 • Talk 10:01, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Specific issues:

  • Should we include recent developments, such as the Ukrainian counterattacks and the Zaporizhzhia NPP crisis, within the sub-section entitled "second phase:" (as currently)?
I believe the sources, e.g. [4], [5], [6], [7], [8] indicate that "second phase" gained traction in April to describe the renewed Russian offensive in Donas/the south. The drop in use of the phrase after April, and recent analyses describing "three phases", indicate that it's inaccurate synthesis to continue appending "second phase" to every development. Jr8825 • Talk 10:01, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should the subsection "Fall of Mariupol" be placed below "Fall of Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk" (as currently)?
I think we're better switching around these sections for chronological flow. Jr8825 • Talk 10:01, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where should we cover the Zaporizhzhia NPP crisis?
Currently it is covered in "Second phase – Dnipro–Zaporizhzhia front" and "Russian nuclear threats", although I think it may warrant its own brief subsection with a hatnote link to the main article given the amount of coverage. If it's given a subsection, I'm not certain where the best place is to put it, I've initially suggested placing it chronologically between the Russian Donbas offensive and Ukrainian counteroffensives. Jr8825 • Talk 10:01, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A content-fork on a Talk Page ... please, STOP. Go back to the original thread, and discuss there. Asking for an Admin to hat this thread, please. Jr ... you are acting like you want to 'hide the evidence' of your initial conduct or something. That's 1) not possible, and 2) is pointless in a content discussion - nobody's "out to get you." 50.111.29.1 (talk) 11:45, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

General comments:

  • Support - More and more sources are stating phrases along the lines of 'new phase', 'turning point' and 'phase 3': [9], [10], [11], [12], [13]. So i would even support a 'Third phase' header starting around 29 August, the day of the launch of the southern counteroffensive. I Know I'm Not Alone (talk) 12:51, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – The new layout looks cleaner; I have wondered before why "First phase" and "Second phase" is repeated in each subheading. Agree with I Know I'm Not Alone that the sources seem to support a third phase now. Also, having Invasion of Ukraine as a subheading seems confusing, as that's also the name of the whole article. Initial invasion sounds better there. I'm only unsure if Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant crisis should get a heading on this level: It was a dangerous incident, but doesn't fit into the "three phases" ordering very well. –LordPeterII (talk) 18:37, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: Anachronism of this comparison. The current article format has taken a different direction now in recognizing "Phase 3"; the TOC comparison given in this thread does not seem to match the direction which other editors have moved the article into since this option was presented. Its not clear what editors are Supporting or Opposing in this thread. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:22, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm happy to see that after my own changes were wholescale reverted without a detailed explanation, other editors have since gone and boldly implemented the new "third phase" section as proposed here and it has been accepted. However, there are a few more specific issues the above structure fixes: 1) the redundant repetition of "X phase:" before every sub-header, 2) the non-chronological discussion of Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk before Mariupol, 3) coverage of the Zaporizhzhia NPP crisis and, most importantly in my view, 4) the earlier cut-off point for the "second phase" (July, rather than September), which adheres to sourcing in RS (e.g. FP and the sources above) in which analysts and military experts are quoted as describing the arrival of HIMARS in July as effectively freezing Russia's artillery-based offensive in Donbas and ending that phase of the conflict. There's then a limbo-land period in August dominated by the nuclear plant crisis and Ukrainian preparations, before the Ukrainian offensives start at the beginning of Sept. Currently our structure doesn't accurately reflect this. Jr8825 • Talk 15:17, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support with comment for @ErnestKrause. The structure as it exists is needlessly wordy and confusing. For EK, I am in favour of your phrasing on proposals (1) and (2); I'll abstain on (3) since I honestly don't know enough; and for (4), whatever date is selected for the end of Phase 1 must start Phase 2 -- It's not like everyone went out for a pint for the whole month of August. As for commentary, I find it saddening that the only person who seems to be following Wikipedia editing guidelines is the person who seemed to get spanked for WP:BRD, @Jr8825. To a casual observer, it appears that instead of really addressing the core concerns that s/he raised, folks went down all sorts of rabbit holes and kept using the old, flawed, painful structure. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 18:01, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: Anachronism of this comparison. Its not clear which versions you are comparing. The 'old' version presented in the comparison above no longer exists; it has been replaced by the current TOC and article with designations of 'Third phase', etc, as other editors have started it and edited it in the last week. You appear to be discussing replacement of a version of the article which no longer exists. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:41, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Recap: When the Jr8825 changed the article under WP:BOLD, s/he got reverted. S/He chose the WP:BRD path and joined the discussion above. That discussion went on so long that some specific details didn't exist, so someone said (metaphorically), "Oh, we've moved on so we don't have to think about those problems." The author came back and said, quite reasonably, "Can we talk about the structure again since it's still terrible? And here are some new problems." This discussion has gone on so long that some of the specific details don't exist any more (sound familiar?) so it's now 'an anachronism'... and we're still not fixing it.
    If Jr8825 simply makes the common-sense changes, s/he has every reason to assume s/he'll get reverted again for lack of discussion. Would it be better if I start a new thread that simply says, "Redundant, nested headers are bad and some things seem out of place," and avoid fungible specifics? I'd bet cash money that the very first response will be, "We can't discuss this until you provide specific examples." Last1in (talk) 18:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Polls

@ErnestKrause, the Reaction section did not mention the Russian people's reaction to the invasion, which is essential for both, making a balance to the said section in order to satisfy the WP:NPOV and to add an essential addition to the article's content. The articles, 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine reactions and Protests against the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, are both unrelated to my edit. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 16:15, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt your first source is an RS. Your second source is a Blog. Slatersteven (talk) 16:27, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? How is it that Radio Liberty isn't a RS?
The second source belongs to London School of Economics , meaning that it's not a self published source. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 22:41, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it does, as its a blog, blogs are blogs. Slatersteven (talk) 09:31, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NEWSBLOG are acceptable sources. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 17:30, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Its not a "news organization". Slatersteven (talk) 18:53, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
its a blog, blogs are blogs.
Not all blogs are treated the same. News blogs are acceptable sources because their "writers are professionals." So we can say that research organizations' blogs are acceptable sources too since their writers are professionals.
But if you're not OK with that we can cite the individual sources that LSE used in their article. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 08:12, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note, as seen here: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/about-europp/. They only publish pieces from people with expertise in the area, and submissions are reviewed by the editors. The editorial team are all academics in political science. I think it's fine as a source. Tristario (talk) 00:42, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think given that polls showing the level of Russian support for the invasion have received a significant amount of coverage in reliable sources, it's WP:DUE to include in the article, but it should be briefer, and within the reactions section.
Radio Liberty is generally a respected source and I think acceptable for this purpose. The LSE blog is also not the same as a self-published source, and even it was, they're subject matter experts. I would prefer sources such as the NYTimes or BBC though Tristario (talk) 01:05, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Radio liberty is not used as a source. Slatersteven (talk) 09:32, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
+1 support. ErnestKrause (talk) 11:27, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What do you support? Slatersteven (talk) 11:29, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support for Slatersteven on this. ErnestKrause (talk) 11:34, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Probably another source can just be used then, I don't think that's a big issue. Radio Liberty does not operate in the west so people largely only associate it with its cold war origins and the fact that it's funded by the US government. However, in my experience, its quality is on the level of a WP:GREL source. I have had a look at the reliable sources noticeboard archives and have not seen any substantive objections to its reliability besides the fact it's funded by the US government. Tristario (talk) 12:54, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Then link to Radio Liberty, and not svoboda.org, which appears to be the website of Svoboda (political party). Slatersteven (talk) 12:58, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
svoboda means liberty in a few different languages. The political party is named after the word for liberty. Svoboda.org is the website of radio liberty Tristario (talk) 13:01, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So which countries version is this? Slatersteven (talk) 18:55, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
svoboda.org is the russian version of it Tristario (talk) 00:51, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Is it, this seems to be the link Radio Liberty gives https://www.rferl.org/Russia. Slatersteven (talk) 08:44, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's the english language version. Look at this: https://www.rferl.org/navigation/allsites. It's on that list Tristario (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(For anyone observing this discussion, this is the edit being currently discussed) Tristario (talk) 08:39, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are already several articles on Wikipedia showing the Russian people's reaction to the invasion, so I'm not sure why the exact same thing should be in the main invasion article. Various opinion polls are used by the Kremlin in its propaganda campaign, which is also why opinion polls are allowed in Russia, unlike independent media. During the Iran-Iraq War, when Saddam Hussein invaded Iran in 1980, no one cared about opinion polls in Iraq because it was seen as Hussein's propaganda. Why is Putin's propaganda so important? There is a dictatorship in Russia, everything is decided by a narrow group of people led by Putin, all the media is controlled by Putin's regime and Russians are informed only about the Kremlin's version of events, people can be imprisoned for up to 15 years for criticizing the war and the Russian army, for spreading so-called "fake news". According to some sources, in telephone polls, a high percentage of people polled don't want to answer questions about the war in Ukraine or President Putin, because these are topics that are subject to prosecution in Russia, so the question is whether these polls can be trusted, even if it's from Levada. It should definitely be mentioned in Wikipedia, but why in this main article? --Tobby72 (talk) 11:00, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We won't say the exact same thing, we provide a briefer summary of those things in this article. And we can include caveats as reported in reliable sources. I don't think this talk page is the right place for a discussion about details of authoritarianism and propaganda in Russia, and I don't want to get bogged down in a discussion about that. Ultimately that's irrelevant, we'll just say what the reliable sources say. Tristario (talk) 02:41, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Kremlin propaganda? What are you talking about? You mean we should hide any information that is used by the Russian side (or any side you don't like) even if it's 100% true and satisfy Wikipedia's rules and policies and mentioned in multiple RS? Your argument is not adequate and doesn't make any sense and therefore is not considered.
AND the Russian protests are used by the western probaganda and its already mentioned in the main article since forever and no one said it shouldn't be here. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 10:29, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is No consensus for your edit earlier today in the main space for this article on the Talk page here which is still in progress. You have been contacted by two editors on your Talk page regarding this matter and associated edits you have made. Establish consensus on the Talk page here prior to further edits. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:05, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind a summary of polls on main article pages. The problem is when they are conducted under autocratic regimes, when there is a clear self-censoring effect. I cleaned up a sloppily written attempt which made it clear that a) under the Putin autocratic regime, accurate polling is difficult, b) I inserted 'polled' and 'surveyed' to stress that this was the opinion of those polled, not the general population, c) I made clear that the polls covered the period just prior to, and just after, the invasion, i.e., implying they may not represent present opinion. I suggest my revision (https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1112295639&oldid=1112281240&diffmode=source)is an adequate starting point for further revisions. Full disclosure: I have Rus ancestry, I have visited Russia several times, I was director of a social survey center conducting public polling in countries with both autocratic and military regimes, I have a relationship with a UN peacebuilding NGO, and I have worked with one or more militaries. Johncdraper (talk) 17:49, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Have you given any thought to adding your insights about this to the section on Polls in the reactions article at Reactions to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. It seems that making note of some of the problems with reliability in polling would be useful in that Reactions article. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:04, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As I've said I think we should be include polling in this article however it needs to be briefer than what attempts so far have done, this article is not the place for an extended discussion about polling in Russia, and it also needs to comply with WP:NPOV Tristario (talk) 00:20, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have made this edit which is briefer and includes some of the caveats that people are concerned about. It could probably be expanded on and updated a bit. Tristario (talk) 00:40, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

DPR, LPR [a]

The text [a] should be rewritten, please compare DPR, LDR. Russia wants to annex the occupied territories and threatens with nuclear weapons. Xx236 (talk) 06:57, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge of Putin announced partial mobilization in Russia into 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine

No need for a separate article for this. This can quite happily be a section inside the already present article about the overall invasion. Osarius 12:16, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming we even need this much, a better place is the article on the wider war. Slatersteven (talk) 12:41, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That other one should probably merge into 2022 Russian mobilization.  —Michael Z. 18:36, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion of the 'mobilization' in the international press now appears to be going in the direction that Putin is defining this term as referring to the enlistment of troops currently in reserve to active service at this time, along with the re-activation of eligibility for ex-soldiers who are still capable of returning to military service. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:45, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The reality is not exactly as Putin presented it. Anyway, how does that relate to this merge proposal?  —Michael Z. 17:04, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If this new mobilization of Putin's goes into effect as I just described Putin's plans, then the boots-in-the-field would effectively double for Russia; that in turn would suggest a direct answer from Russia to the current Ukrainian counteroffensive. (Osarius requested that the associated edit be brought into this article). ErnestKrause (talk) 17:20, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 September 2022

Can you cite this source? https://www.npr.org/2022/09/23/1124678888/russia-ukraine-military-draft-protests-flight


I found an update to show you, here it is: In September 23, many Russians are protesting and escaping the country due to Putin's order of mobilize multiple troops to help the struggling campaign in Ukraine. Since then, a lot of videos have emerged on social media that showcases families and friends seeing off young recruits to fight. There are news reports about long lines of cars backed up on Russia's border crossings on each country. 2601:205:C001:EA0:BCFD:2E6B:6676:6DCD (talk) 18:34, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This appears to be more of a Reaction to the Invasion taking place within the borders of Russia and not in Ukraine. Possibly see the new article for Reactions to the 2022 Russian invasion. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:19, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

current estimates of numerical strength

so in the infobox the strngth estimates are currently given for the start of the invasion, wich is important information. However, this conflict has now been going on for more than 7 months, and the russian number is about to change drastically given the mobilization. So wouldn't it make sense to also include estimates for the current strength in order to better reflect the realities on the ground? Assuming someone finds reliable sources for currently deployed troops. 1234567891011a (talk) 09:22, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We would need a wp:rs to give such numbers. Note that it would have to say "current Strength" not (for example) "projected Strength". Slatersteven (talk) 11:56, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 September 2022

Change A to B because of a typo in the article (See A and B below):

A:

The invasion has likely resulted in tens of thousands of dead on both sides and caused Europe's largest refugee crisis since World War II,

B:

The invasion has likely resulted in tens of thousands of deaths on both sides and caused Europe's largest refugee crisis since World War II, Rosedaler (talk) 13:47, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Done EnIRtpf09bchat with me 15:25, 25 September 2022 (UTC).[reply]

Why are there two tables under Field casualties and injuries?

I think they should be merged. 199t8 (talk) 21:11, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

During the fog of war, there are discrepancies and inconsistencies between what different sides claim to be casualties. The tables currently are organized to indicate the source of the statistics being presented. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:21, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What determines which table a statistic would go in? 199t8 (talk) 01:45, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 September 2022

Hello,

I would like to notify you that "Belligerents" right table is missing countries that are supporting each side. Example it is stated that Belarus is supporting Russia, but it is missing that Ukraine is supported by NATO. Please verify and fix.

Greetings ExZhero (talk) 04:37, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think Q2 of the FAQ at the top of the talk page applies here.  Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. --N8wilson 🔔 05:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See also

Please add link to 2022 Russian mobilization. --Kusurija (talk) 10:37, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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