Talk:Mary, Queen of Scots

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Mary I

Quick question…

Edited the infobox recently to include the ordinal I so that infobox was headed “Mary I”.

The edit was reverted.

I asked the editor responsible why, but they have not (yet) responded.

Given that there’s nothing in the MoS to suggest that the edit was wrong or inaccurate, I’m curious as to why the article would not be in keeping with others dealing with historical monarchs where the ordinal is included, even if they were/are known by a more common term, for example William the Lion shows “William I” and the lede states “sometimes known as William I”. (William of Orange being William II of Scotland, and his wife, Mary Stuart, Great-Great-Granddaughter of Mary I of Scotland, being Mary II of Scotland).

A quick Google search turns up several references to Mary, Queen of Scots as Mary I, including the government’s own ‘’National Records of Scotland’’; https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/learning/hall-of-fame/hall-of-fame-a-z/mary-queen-of-scots

(For those unfamiliar with the NRS, see here: https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/about-us )

Why would it not be appropriate for the infobox on this article, which itself states in the lede “also known as - Mary I of Scotland”, for the ordinal to be included?

Or should it be the case that the infobox of other articles, for example Mary I of England, who in that instance may be better known as “Mary Tudor” or “Bloody Mary”, have the ordinal removed from the infobox?

Confused as to the lack of a consistent approach…

2A00:23C6:B808:7701:7579:5088:E1FC:DF5C (talk) 14:56, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

I think she gets confused with Mary I quite a lot. Probably best to avoid confusing the issue further. Celia Homeford (talk) 15:59, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Not sure I’m entirely in agreement, as I could see that being the case if each article were styled Mary I, however I am not proposing to change the title of the article - which might result in a situation which you refer to.

In adding the ordinal to the infobox to read Mary I the article infobox then accurately reflects that Mary, Queen of Scots was the first of two individuals called Mary Stuart to reign as Queen of Scots/Scotland. The absence of the ordinal omits to bring that to the reader’s attention and is at odds with other articles on similar subjects.

I wouldn’t expect Wikipedia to omit facts from articles for fear of confusing, but rather present facts in order to inform. 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:7579:5088:E1FC:DF5C (talk) 16:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Tend to agree. In fact, the article was previously located at Mary I of Scotland but was moved, after much discussion, in order to satisfy the "common namers". Deb (talk) 18:13, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

My issue lies not with the article’s location/title - nor do I wish to reopen discussion on that topic.

However, I maintain that the infobox should read Mary I in order that it accurately reflect that Mary, Queen of Scots was the first of two individuals called Mary Stuart to reign as Queen of Scots/Scotland. The absence of the ordinal omits to bring that to the reader’s attention and is at odds with other articles on similar subjects.

I doubt very much that it’s inclusion in the infobox will confuse readers in respect of a monarch of England, Mary Tudor, who, unlike Mary Stuart, was the only Tudor monarch of England to bear that name. In mentioning Mary Stuart, Queen of Scotland, surely an encyclopaedia, in pursuit of the avoidance of confusion, must enable the reader to distinguish readily as to whether such refers to Mary I (1542-1567) or Mary II (1689-1694).

Edit: The articles Henry IV of England and Henry IV of France both show “Henry IV” in the infobox, which is perfectly proper and consistent in dealing with two separate monarchs of two separate kingdoms, with no evidence of confusion being an issue nor a need for the ordinal to be omitted from either article. Therefore, surely the same should apply with regard to “Mary I” appearing in the respective infoboxes dealing with two separate monarchs of two separate kingdoms? I am highly sceptical that a possibility for confusion exists in the event that the ordinal is added to the infobox of this article.

2A00:23C6:B808:7701:7579:5088:E1FC:DF5C (talk) 18:50, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

I've tried a few times (in the past) to have Mary I the infobox heading, but was always reverted. Even though Scotland also had a Mary II. Also tended to get reverted when showing her as Mary I in the infoboxes of her father & her son. GoodDay (talk) 00:36, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

In which case, the approach taken by certain editors to this particular historical figure would appear to me to be highly irregular, in that information from reliable sources is routinely removed for fear of “confusion” (whether real or imagined) with an entirely separate and unrelated historical figure, who is themselves the subject of a separate and unrelated article.

If adopted as a standard across Wikipedia, can you image the carnage such a practice would wreak? If removing factual and verifiable edits to this article is justified, then surely those same arguments could be used justify the editing in a similar vein of Henry IV of France or Henry IV of England, for example, so as to avoid “confusion”. Can you imagine the uproar if I popped over to Henry IV of England and deleted the “IV” from the infobox header and justified my actions on the grounds of avoiding confusion with Henry IV of France? My edit would be reverted instantly and my argument for doing so shot to pieces.

Did you ever seek arbitration following the reverting of your edits to include the ordinal? I don’t want to go over old ground, but previous/ongoing actions taken to exclude the ordinal from the infobox header appear to me to be… (chooses words carefully)… ‘unjustified’. 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:7579:5088:E1FC:DF5C (talk) 07:42, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks to Deb for pointing out the old requested move. Having looked at that and doing some rummaging, I'm strongly against inclusion of the ordinal, and even think it should be removed from the first line of the introduction. We don't apply numerals that are not generally in use nor do we pander to Scottish nationalist sentiment. 'Mary I of Scotland' is about as common as 'Elizabeth I of Scotland' in gscholar searches: Mary I of ScotlandElizabeth I of Scotland. We wouldn't put 'Elizabeth I' or 'Elizabeth I and II' in the infobox of Elizabeth II. I don't think we should do it here either. Celia Homeford (talk) 08:21, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Wow! Just… wow! That, @CeliaHomeford, was enlightening - but not for reasons you might suspect.

Puting to one side your assumptions/accusations of a political nature and veiled threats to undertake to vandalise the article’s lede, which are in themselves outrageous, your attempt to cloud the issue with references to Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom is nonsensical, as I am sure you are well aware that the issue surrounding the ordinal number of that former monarch of the UK during the early days of her reign was resolved under Churchill’s convention, and remained Elizabeth II.

Aside from that irrelevant detour, this article concerns a former monarch of the Kingdom of Scotland, (and Kingdom of France), for which there is no issue surrounding the ordinal number, other than its continued and unexplained absence from the heading of the infobox of the article concerned.

When sources including, for example, the government body whose “purpose is to collect, preserve and produce information about Scotland's people and history and make it available to inform current and future generations” also refers to Mary Queen of Scots as “Mary I (reigned 14 December 1542 to 24 July 1567)” then it is surely right and proper and within the MoS to reflect the correct ordinal number of that monarch in the infobox header as “Mary I” - particularly given that her Great-Great-Grandaughter, also Mary Stuart, reigned as “Mary II”.

@CeliaHomeford - I was reluctant to go down this road, but following comments by GoodDay on his/her experience, coupled with your last contribution, I now get the distinct impression that there may be editors lurking on this article who seek to prevent the inclusion of the correct ordinal in the infobox as a result of an Anglocentric attitude which manifests itself as an attempt to restrict any reference to “Mary I” exclusively to that of Mary Tudor, a.k.a Mary I of England, regardless of any other monarchs of any other kingdoms who by coincidence bear the same regal name and ordinal number. Is my impression of the presence of an Anglocentric attitude correct? Your last contribution certainly lends weight to it… 2A00:23C6:B808:7701:7579:5088:E1FC:DF5C (talk) 10:56, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Main photo

The main photo displayed on this article is very deceptive in my opinion and it depicts Mary at a very young age (16). She died later on and is more thought of with the 1578 portrait (in an older sense). I wondered if anyone else thought it would be more appropriate to use the 1578 Hilliard portrait or c. 1560 widow portrait by Clouet. (talk) 01:22, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Murder of confessor

The insertion of this text by NoelveNoelve has been disputed and reverted by three editors: DrKay, Celia Homeford, and me. The problem is that it is not at all clear how the inserted information relates to the rest of the paragraph. Wikipedia articles are not supposed to imply anything, nor are readers meant to draw conclusions that are not found in reliable sources; see WP:OR. Furthermore, it is not clear how any of this relates to Mary; is it found in any of the biographies of Mary (see WP:PROPORTION)? Per WP:ONUS, the editor seeking to include this, NoelveNoelve, is supposed to gain consensus for the inclusion. NoelveNoelve has so far reverted the removal of this content 7 times. NoelveNoelve has reverted more than 3 times in the last 24 hours, thus breaking WP:3RR. I strongly suggest that NoelveNoelve self-revert and, while at it, also stop insulting other editors; otherwise I foresee a lasting block in near future. Surtsicna (talk) 10:25, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Birth date

8 December is not for sure the confirmed date - if anyone bothered to read Wormald’s book, she said it’s still clearly debated. I know most people use the feast day as proof for it being 8 December, but it’s still plausible considering 7 December was one day from it. The fact that one of Mary’s own supporters claimed the seventh can’t be ignored. Dancingtudorqueen (talk) 06:16, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

It's not ignored. It's in the article, where it's given due weight. DrKay (talk) 08:26, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Then why is it listed as just 8 December when either date is considered? It’s misleading Dancingtudorqueen (talk) 09:28, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Hmmnn. Looking at this again, User:Celia Homeford said in an edit summary 'only Knox says the 7th', but it's actually Lesley that says the 7th. I think we need to look at the balance of sources, and take our cue from them. How many sources say the 7th? How many say the 7th or 8th? And how many say the 8th? What dates are these sources, i.e. is modern scholarship more accepting of one date or the other? Perhaps we should list and see how many say one and how many the other? Looking at the range below, most ignore the 7th, not mentioning it at all. So, at the moment, I'm still thinking that per WP:PROPORTION it should be mentioned because it is sourced but it should be restricted to a footnote because it is not the predominant view. Promoting it from a footnote to the first line of the article body gives it too much prominence and undue weight. DrKay (talk) 18:30, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Whoops! Mea culpa. I did of course mean Lesley. Celia Homeford (talk) 13:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

• 7th:

1. https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100137949

• 7th or 8th:

1. Jenny Wormald (1988) p.11
2. Antonia Fraser (1994) p.13
3. Alison Weir (1996) Britain's Royal Families p.243

• 8th:

1. Gordon Donaldson (1974) p.19
2. John Hunter (1996) Mary Stuart p.5
3. John Guy (2004) p.12
4. Julian Goodare (2004) ODNB
5. Alison Weir (2008) p.7
6. Susan Watkins (2009) Mary Queen of Scots p.7
7. Rosalind Marshall (2013) p.9
8. Linda Porter (historian) (2013) Crown of Thistles p.289
9. https://www.royal.uk/mary-queen-scots-r1542-1567
10. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Mary-queen-of-Scotland
11. https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/elizabeth-i-mary-queen-scots
12. https://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/education/int/hist/mary/factfile/index.shtml?factfile=timeline
13. https://www.historyscotland.com/history/mary-queen-of-scots-was-born-on-this-day-in-scottish-history/
14. https://www.rct.uk/sites/default/files/resources/Mary%2C%20Queen%20of%20Scots%20factsheet.pdf

Rosalind K. Marshall (Mary Queen of Scots: Truth or Lies, 2014) also says she became queen when 6 days old i.e. born on 8th. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Mary queen of scots descendants

To whom it may concern, Elizabeth 1 queen of Englands jealousy had her cousin mary murdered for power over scotland. Held her captive long enough to change laws to prove her plot against Elizabeth, so mary could be executed legally. This took 18.5 years of Mary being incarcerated . Religious zealots Roman catholics and protestants are guilty as well for Mary's execution by Elizabeth's court. Shame on you all. Stole Mary's treasure and hidden all these century's in New Scotland. Long live thee queen. By Mother Mary's son. Thomas Allen Tauberschmidt. ESQ. Great Great grandson of Mary queen of Scotland. Verified. All empowered by Mary's execution is cursed. 199.167.89.52 (talk) 07:38, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you so much for this helpful contribution. Deb (talk) 08:46, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

:-P Yes - it brought new knowledge to mankind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.34.67 (talk) 20:37, 24 July 2022 (UTC)