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September 28

History of the titles of "governor", "president", and "executive authority" in the United States

Observe this edit. I had added this section, thinking that since this was well known, those who knew which books to cite would then step in and add the citations. No one did so. Can anyone suggest here which sources should be cited? Michael Hardy (talk) 06:42, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Michael Hardy. The general principle that you should keep in mind is that you first find reliable sources verifying the content you want to add, and then you create references to those sources second, and then summarize those sources third, and then after all of that, you add the new well-referenced content fourth. In other words, you have put the cart before the horse. Go find the reliable sources. That is your job since you added the content. It is not the job of other editors, although there is a slim chance that someone with a good heart might help after seeing this conversation. In my opinion, that is not a viable way to build an encyclopedia with over 6.5 million articles. Cullen328 (talk) 06:55, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But the Ref Desk is here to help people find sources, so Michael Hardy is asking for help in the right place. Hopefully some of us can supply them. Myself am drawing a blank because don't know enough about US government to know what terms to search. Maybe what you need might be in a history of how the government was set up? For example, though a more modern source would be better. [1] 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:56, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Michael_Hardy has been editing Wikipedia since 2002 (though predominantly Math and Physics topics), so he presumably knows Cullen328's verities... AnonMoos (talk) 20:08, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328: As I said, I thought there would be some who would very quickly step in and add suitable sources, since the facts are universally known to those who study the history of that era. Michael Hardy (talk) 16:55, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

EO can tell you where the terms "president"[2] and "governor"[3] arose. I'm not aware of an American office called "executive authority". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:01, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Executive authority" isn't an office, but the U.S. Constitution uses that term in Art. I, sec. 2: "When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies", and Art. IV, sec. 2: "A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime." --Metropolitan90 (talk) 18:01, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The reason they would use that term is that it's up to the states what specific title to give their respective executives. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:07, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In North American terms, "governor" comes from the colonial government in the Thirteen Colonies, when each colony had a governor who was the representative of the king. Canada still has a Governor General and the Provinces each have a Lieutenant Governor, although their role is now largely ceremonial. As for "president", the Founding Fathers may have been influenced by the speaker of the French parlement who was addressed as Monsieur le Président. Our President (government title) article says that a suggested address for George Washington was "Elected Highness". Alansplodge (talk) 20:40, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

whence hast thou then thy truth, But from him, or his Angels president In every province
— Milton, Paradise Regained (1671)

Jamestown had a council which elected it's president. Some colonial councils had elected a president. Franklin's "Short Hints" for the Albany Congress suggested "Governor General" which was changed to "President General". The fathers had some history of english use in their governments before the revolution, first state constitutions, and the convention.

In convention i think Pinckney's Plan presented May 29th was the first mention of title for a single executive: The Executive Power of the United States shall be vested in a President of the United States of America which shall be his stile & his title shall be His Excellency which seems to transpose title and style. There was some crossing out and inserting "Governor" and "Executive Authority" for the states and clause mentioned; and "Governour" and "President" for the federal executive in the work of the Committee of Detail in the Randolph and Wilson drafts with some in Rutledge's handwriting. I tried to follow the changes in Max Farrand's The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787 and list here but gave up. And after a the delegates seemingly settled on "President" Alexander Hamilton would then propose lifetime-serving national "Governor".fiveby(zero) 17:00, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A reference for the origin of governors in the USA is:

Ferguson, Margaret, ed. (2006). The Executive Branch of State Government: People, Process, and Politics. Santa Barbara, CA: ABC-CLIO. p. 14. ISBN 978-1851097715.

Alansplodge (talk) 21:14, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Your edit implies or assumes that the constitution could have prescribed the title of the executive in the various state governments which preceded the convention.

The officer usually preserved the colonial name of "governor;" but in New Hampshire, Delaware, and Pennsylvania, he was called the "president"—which name had also in a few instances been employed in the colonial period. Morey, William C. (1893). The First State Constitutions. p. 25.

note also on the opposite page New Jersey.—"Governor" and "President of the Council.", but i think Governor (United_States)#History would benefit more from an expansion along the lines of the various forms of executive in the colonial governments and debate on the nature of the executive in the development of the state constitutions, with the title as additional detail. I'll add to Alansplodge's suggestion Kruman, Marc W (1997). Between authority & liberty : state constitution making in revolutionary America.. fiveby(zero) 17:16, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Baseball Bugs: Article I, Section 2, Clause 4 of the Constitution of the United States says "When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies." This term "Executive Authority" means the governor in states where the head of government of the state is called the governor, the president in states where he is called the president, or the executive council in Pennsylvania. Article IV, Section 2, Clause 2 says "A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime." It has the same meaning here. They did not use the term "governor" or "president" or "exective council" because this was to apply to all of the states regardless of which title they used to refer to their executive authority. Michael Hardy (talk) 00:25, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. "Executive Authority" there is a description, not a title. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:20, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Book written from both ends

Let's say you have a blank notebook. You open it on the first page and start writing some text over the next several pages. Then you skip to the last page, flip the notebook upside down and start writing a different text. Is there a name for this practice? I'm looking for a scholarly term that I could use to describe old manuscripts that were written in this way, from both ends of one codex. — Kpalion^(talk) 12:37, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that it's a very common expression, but such manuscripts are sometimes said to be written tête-bêche. Examples of usage: [4], [5]. --Antiquary (talk) 13:07, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Many book sellers have a category of "double-sided books." Sometimes it is two unrelated books basically bound back-to-back. Other times it is related such as having the same story told from two perspectives. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 13:33, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some people have nostalgic memories of "Ace Doubles" which were printed that way. AnonMoos (talk) 13:54, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Other people have sizeable numbers of such volumes (which may be first editions of one or both titles) in their collections, and regularly read or refer to them both for pleasure and as part of bibliographic documentation. Just sayin' :-). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.227.236 (talk) 20:23, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've acquired at least 3 or 4 of the science fiction Ace Doubles over the years; I would not have any interest at all in the westerns and mystery novels... AnonMoos (talk) 23:18, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia article is apparently Dos-à-dos binding... AnonMoos (talk) 13:57, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Never knew the origin of the square-dancing call "Do-si-do" before... AnonMoos (talk)

Reminds me of the stamp collector who had an incredibly rare tête-bêche, i.e. two stamps joined together, one printed upside down. The collector thought, "Ah, I can make more money selling these separately", so he separated them, and only then realised what he had done. 92.31.142.179 (talk) 16:48, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Tête-bêche, I like it. Thank you all, and Antiquary in particular! — Kpalion^(talk) 17:26, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I see this frequently with bilingual publications in English and Spanish. Typically they are mass-produced booklets or pamphlet type softcovers. Elizium23 (talk) 03:33, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

British casualties on the Western Front WW2 ?

And what caused such small losses of Great Britain on the Western Front BB2? In total, 286k of the British died, but the wiki says only 40k of the dead on the Western Front, I understand that England also had the Atlantic, Mediterranean and Pacific fronts, but after June 44, shouldn’t the Western European front be the most bloody for the British? 37.145.60.154 (talk) 21:14, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Probably had somethig to do with the large numbers of American troops at the time. In 1944-5, Americans accounted for 70% of troops and casualties for the Allies in that area.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:31, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also the short duration, less than a year. The North African campaign, although generally less intense, dragged on for three years. Alansplodge (talk) 21:37, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

September 30

Most prestigious classical music competitions for music composition

What might be considered the most prestigious classical music competitions for composition?-anything akin to the high standing of the the Chopin or Tchaikovsky Piano competitions? The only one that comes to mind is the Toru Takemitsu Composition Award. I guess I'm thinking outside of things like the Pulitzer and Grammy awards, if that makes sense? 143.44.33.22 (talk) 02:16, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See this list and List of classical music competitions#Composition. Alansplodge (talk) 10:52, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One would expect to find the most prestigious ones on both lists. but I have yet to detect any overlap. --Lambiam 12:44, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Path of Nord Stream 1 vs Nord Stream 2

The map on http://theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/29/nord-stream-attacks-highlight-vulnerability-undersea-pipelines-west shows both Nord Stream pipelines being parallel for most of their lengths.

Am I right to infer that that is simply a drawing convention, and that they are not literally uniformly separated by around 5 km (according to the scale)?

If so, why are the two crossings important enough to show?

Thanks,
cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 11:02, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

new Russian border and claims

Without wanting to open any wider debate on the current events, but in terms of the new situation - is there any authoritative source on the exact official Russian position on territorial claims? Are any new maps from government sources available? From what I gather from the news is that the 4 areas joined RF as 4 different federal subjects. But does RF maintain claims to the parts of oblasts that are under Ukrainian control? Or are the new federal subjects limited by the extent of control at the time of the accession to RF? --Soman (talk) 18:24, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"But does RF maintain claims to the parts of oblasts that are under Ukrainian control?"

According to BBC Radio and website reporting I've heard/seen in the last day or so, such as this: yes they seemingly do. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.2230.195} 90.193.128.129 (talk) 00:47, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Soman:: Kremlin unclear on which parts of Ukraine it has ‘annexed’ (2022-10-03) --Error (talk) 16:14, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Shirin Ebadi

The article about Shirin Ebadi needs updating. The latest reference in it is 2016. Perhaps the originator could bring it up to 2022?Cherrycherrito (talk) 22:05, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Courtesy link: Shirin Ebadi. A more appropriate place to flag this is the talk page of the article. You can also place the template {{update}} on the article place. Also, please feel free to contribute improvements to the article yourself. The article was created in 2003 by an editor who has not been active for more than three years; since then 671 other editors have made contributions, increasing its initial size by 3725%. Although the latest reference may be from 2016, the (as of 12:36, 1 October 2022 (UTC)) latest contribution is from 28 September 2022‎, so it is not as if the article is derelict. --Lambiam 12:36, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

October 1

What is the technical term for parallel lines drawn along coastlines in old maps?

Old maps sometimes include progressively fainter lines mirroring the coast extending out to sea, as in this map. Is there a term for this in cartography?

I gather that solid ones serving a similar purpose are called tint bands.^[1]

Thanks,
cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 00:20, 1 October 2022 (UTC) cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 00:20, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some info here. They're "contour lines" if the water depth is constant along each line; not sure if there's a specific name when they're graphic artefacts... AnonMoos (talk) 01:58, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a variant of hachures? Alansplodge (talk) 09:52, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was on the right track:

"Hachures are parallel lines drawn with a dry point on map engravings which are meant to represent water (coast lines, swamps, etc.). Hachures are also used as hill shading indicating slopes". from A technical dictionary of printmaking, André Béguin . Alansplodge (talk) 09:59, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have amended our article accordingly. Alansplodge (talk) 10:26, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would have said "form line"^[2] with hachuring always on the fall line, but Eduard Imhof mentions horizontal hachure^[3], I'm not certain i would call it hachure without conveying something to the viewer beyond the form of the coastline.fiveby(zero) 14:06, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Though a closer look has Recently the nomenclature 'form lines' has been suggested for horizontal hachuring. This term is too general and therefore tells us nothing... and the lines certainly visually emphasize the feature.fiveby(zero) 14:25, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks. Hachure seems the best term. Googling, it seems form lines are just contour lines. Cheers, cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 22:02, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot. The lines look too regular to be real contour lines. I think they are more for aesthetics. The web page gives useful info, though. cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 17:22, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The cusps where the lines from separate island groups meet are also not consistent with real contour lines. --Lambiam 11:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Should be possible to settle the issue by comparison with modern charts. In any event, whatever depths the series of lines might represent they suppose a uniform slope near land and a uniform slope (at a shallower angle) in the open sea, which is unrealistic. 2A00:23D0:482:D001:E578:2121:89F:4D1E (talk) 11:47, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would tend to include the word 'conventional' somewhere in a description, like conventionally-spaced pylons on 1:50,000 OS maps vs. 1:25,000. MinorProphet (talk) 12:54, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ http://esri.com/arcgis-blog/products/product/mapping/quick-tint-bands
^ "form line". https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/form%20line. {{cite encyclopedia}}: |work= ignored (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
^ Imhof, Eduard (1982). "Hachures and Other Related Techniques". Cartographic Relief Presentation.

German-Soviet Axis talks

Good Morning everyone, Does anybody have any extra academic sources concerning the German-Soviet Axis talks? Don't care if they are left- or right-wing, just want some sources, preferably in digital form Thank you in advance Ιπποκράτης2020 (talk) 10:45, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As the 36 sources cited in the article appear not to fulfill your needs, could you give an indication what you are looking for in these extra sources? --Lambiam 11:28, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Constantine or Federico II Hohenstaufen?

This image says Constantine, but this version [6] disagrees. Which is it? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:27, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The thing he has in his hand seems to have the text 'LIBERTAS' on it. That does not seem to make any sense at all regarding Constantine, whereas Frederick II was forced to sign the liberty charter Statutum in favorem principum in 1231. The attribution of the statue to Constantine must be a fake. --T*U (talk) 12:43, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And OTOH, his shield seems to have a cross on it. Could be artistic license either way. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:05, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, why should not Frederick have a cross? After all, he was a crusader. Far more difficult to explain why Constantine should have the word 'LIBERTAS' in his hand. Also, Constantine's sign has not been described as a simple cross sign, but either as a staurogram or as a chi-rho. Finally, what would be the purpose of a statue of Constantine in Oria? While Frederick actually was reigning the area. --T*U (talk) 13:40, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Point. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:23, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The only printed text I could find is The Companion Guide to Southern Italy (1969) page 307:

...we come to the Piazza Cattedrale, with a modern statue of Constantine (Mario Sabatelli, 1924) and the baroque cathedral, rebuilt in 1750...

I also found this webpage that seems to be from the Italian ministry of culture, which mentions:

la colossale statua dell'Imperatore Costantino (Oria, 1924)

Alansplodge (talk) 19:22, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A couple more...

L’imperatore Costantino fotografata da @alessioproto - la colossale statua dell’imperatore Costantino (Oria, 1924) realizzata da Mario Sabatelli. Percorrendo le vie strette si giunge in piazza Cattedrale, dove una terrazza è sorvegliata dalla statua in bronzo dell’imperatore Costantino. from Rai - Radiotelevisione Italiana Spa. Alansplodge (talk) 19:27, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also Puglia by Touring club italiano (1978) p. 343 which says:

...un esteso panorama , sorgono la statua di Costantino , di Mario Sabatelli ( 1924 ) , e la Cattedrale , interamente ricostruita nel 1750 dopo il terremoto...

That's your lot, make of it what you will. Alansplodge (talk) 19:34, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) A photograph of the image on the web page Visita guidata a Oria has the url https://www.salentoguideturistiche.it/img/oria/oria-federico.jpg The page contains several mentions of Federico II and none of Costantino I. This photo also identifies the statue as Frederick II's. The changes to Constantine are mistaken; note that also the Common cats now have Category:Constantine's Statue, Oria, also for File:Statua federico II a Oria.JPG. The older categories should be restored. --Lambiam 19:42, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A photo of the statue was the second of a selection by the Museo Nazionale of four photographs of Italian works of art.^[7] The text identifies it as portraying the colossal statue of Emperor Constantine (Oria, 1924) realized by Mario Sabatelli. --Lambiam 20:11, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Colossal?[8] Constantine I must have been very short if that statue is twice life size. fiveby(zero) 22:23, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's one such colossal statue of Constantine that anything smaller than 8 metres can't be called colossal. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all the response! Constantine seems to be the answer. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:57, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Judging from his face, it's more similar to that of Frederik II than that of Constantinus, but depictions of either of them tend to be somewhat idealised. His gear (apart from the shield) is clearly Roman. May I suggest that this piece of art may try to unite both Roman emperors, to put Frederik II in the tradition of Constantinus? Both are known for granting certain liberties (one to the Christians, the other to the German princes) and as defenders of Christianity. So that this is a statue of both at the same time. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if Snr. Sabatelli has inscribed the name of the subject on the pedestal? I couldn't find an image of the whole thing. Alansplodge (talk) 09:52, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like something an artist might do. Some depictions of Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor do seem to have a beard, like the statue. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:27, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Aha! Itália meridionale: v. Abruzzo, Molise e Púglia, (1926) Page 678 mentions:

...mon. à Costantino, di Mario Sabatelli da Bari, 1924, deliberato nel 1913 in occasione del xvi centenario dell'editto di Milano

Which I think means "Mon. to Constantine, by Mario Sabatelli of Bari, 1924, deliberated (commissioned?) in 1913 on the occasion of the sixteenth centenary of the Edict of Milan".

As every schoolboy knows, the Edict of Milan in AD 313 granted freedom of worship to Christians throughout the Roman Empire, so this must be the document marked "LIBERTAS".

Final score: Constantine, 1 - Frederick II, NIL. Alansplodge (talk) 14:05, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Frederick II's birth name was Constantine. I do not see this mentioned here and it might not be relevant but I do find it interesting. Surtsicna (talk) 14:52, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Live fire exercise that is attendable by civilians

Hi, there.

The East Fuji Maneuver Area hosts annual live fire exercises that is attendable by civilians. There are many youtube videos of this event, this is an example of it[9]. In this video, you can clearly see the civilian attendees sitting less than 100 meters away from the firing infantry and armor vehicles.

Other than Japan, are there any other country that hosts similar live fire exercises that are attendable by civilians? Helian James (talk) 20:50, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Renoir painting

I am trying to track down every painting that was ever made (or allegedly made) of Renoir's model Lise Tréhot. As of 2022, the only painting I have failed to track down in this regard is a work titled Woman looking at a bird (Lise: La Fille a l'Oaseau). Art historian Douglas Cooper last made note of it in 1959, describing it as 8I by 65 cm in size and in possession by the Barnes Foundation, Philadelphia. This is odd to me, as I own the definitive catalog for the Barnes, and there's no mention of it. Given that the book is just under 400 pages, it's possible that I missed something, but I don't think I did. From what I can tell, a Russian editor on a website called "Arthive" uploaded a page about the work.[10] According to that site, the painting is now located at the Nizhny Novgorod State Art Museum, not at the Barnes Foundation. Searching for "Ренуар" at artmuseumnn.ru produces a few results, including "Женщина с птичкой" (Woman with a Bird), which leads to this page of results. However, I'm having trouble finding the entry due to browser issues. If anyone is able to read that link and tell me if there is content about the painting, that would be wonderful. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 23:37, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You were unable to view the page and video? Here is a YouTube link. fiveby(zero) 23:51, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, exactly. Thank you. Viriditas (talk) 00:00, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for answering the first question. However, I am unable to sleep not knowing how the painting was said to be in the Barnes private collection in 1959 (several years before the institution went public in 1961), and then suddenly appears in a state museum in Russia in the 2000s. Again, Natalia Kandaurova of Arthive says that it came to the USSR in 1945 and was possibly captured by the Red Army from Nazis who had looted Hungarian art (such as Baron Herzog). But this doesn’t make any sense when Cooper says Barnes had it in 1959. I’m obviously missing an important aspect of this problem. Can anyone help? I’m trying to think of alternate explanations. For example, perhaps Barnes was making a claim on stolen artwork, and by having Cooper publish this credit, it was establishing ownership even though the work was in Russia? Viriditas (talk) 03:09, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Barnes Foundation (Barnes-Foundation-Martha-Jun-2012-Hardcover), Barnes' collecting Renoirs extends from 1912 to 1942 ([11]). Could Cooper's question possiblys come from a confusion with an ambiguous Child with a Bird (Mademoiselle Fleury in Algerian Costume) 1882 Oil on canvas, 126.4 x 78.1 cm, turned "Girl with falcon" perhaps only in the 1950's ([12]) ? --Askedonty (talk) 10:05, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the question. I suppose it’s certainly possible, but there are several different paintings with birds, and Cooper’s focus is solely on paintings featuring Lise. He also includes a plate of the correct image, so there’s that. But your question is a good one, as something isn’t quite right. One thing I forgot to mention in this discussion was that the painting is a fragment of a larger work known as Landscape with Two People (Paysage avec deux personnages). The painting in the Russian museum is the bottom left portion. The top right is either lost or destroyed. Nobody seems to know why the two were separated or what became of the other fragment! Curiouser and curiouser. Another angle of investigation that I have not yet pursued is to review the Holocaust suits filed in court which supposedly list the works of art that were stolen per Baron Herzog. In other words, I have not yet confirmed that the Renoir in custody of the Russian museum appears on that list. Which again, leads me to wonder why Barnes would claim it in 1959? Seems like a genuine art mystery. Viriditas (talk) 10:20, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The page Женщина с птичкой on the website of the Nizhny Novgorod State Art Museum (artmuseumnn.ru) calls it an early work of Renoir, implying that the painting harbours a mystery, an intriguing secret. There is no image or further link, and no express indication it is part of the collection (although one would assume so). BTW, in French the title is La Fille a l'Oiseau. --Lambiam 11:02, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a long shot, but you might try WP:RX for page# 34 of OCLC 564093838. This is a 1967 volume of Museum Folkwang's bulletin. I can't view any text but there is a search hit for "La Fille a l'Oiseau" Renoir Barnes "l'ombrelle" Lise. 3 usages of "La Fille a l'Oiseau" and 2 of "Barnes". fiveby(zero) 12:47, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Err...how did we not find "10. Renoir: was there a bird?" fiveby(zero) 13:25, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

«Female portrait» (in the Catalogue — «Femme à l’oiseau») by Renoir came from Baron Andre Herzog de Czet’s collection. (p. 36) and listing (p. 128) Catalogue of Art Objects from Hungarian Private Collections. fiveby(zero) 13:55, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Barnes titles "Woman with Bird" and has it in the Baron Herzog collection in 1935. Barnes, Albert C.; De Mazia, Violette (1935). The Art of Renoir. The Barnes Foundation. p. 442. fiveby(zero) 14:32, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

...András Herzog also gave impressionist works on loan abroad from his collection in the period directly before the outbreak of the war. Between 2 July and 25 September 1938 an exhibition was organised in Amsterdam’s Stedelijk Museum titled Honderd Jaar Fransch Kunst (One Hundred Years of French Art) on the occasion of the queen’s jubilee. András Herzog lent ﬁve paintings for this exhibition: ...Auguste Renoir’s Woman with Bird... also photograph showing the painting in the "Herzog Palace" in Radvanyi, Orsolya (2016). "Attempts to Rescue Artworks in the Shadow of World War II: Notes on the Background of the Herzog Collection". Bulletin du Musée Hongrois des Beaux-Arts: 202–3. But no mention of loaning to Barnes for an exhibition in Philadelphia. fiveby(zero) 15:09, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Couldn't Cooper just be attributing the photograph or the last known location of a missing painting in 1959? fiveby(zero) 15:29, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cooper consistently uses the "collection name, location" convention in the citations. In this instance, on p. 169: Plate 9. Lise: La Fille a l'Oaseau, by Pierre Auguste Renoir. Signed and dated I866. Canvas, 8I by 65 cm. (Barnes Foundation, Philadelphia.) Is he attributing the photo and not the work, as you say? I think you might be right. It's the only conclusion that makes sense, and if I think hard enough, I seem to recall seeing this kind of thing before, maybe a decade ago. You've solved the problem to my satisfaction. The new source you just posted fills in the historical gaps as to how the painting went from the Herzog palace in Pest, Hungary, to the Stedelijk Museum, Amsterdam, in 1938. Unfortunately, the Hungarian Ministry of Religious Affairs and Public Education demanded the artworks be returned on June 17, 1939. At this point the sources become murky: in 1944, it is thought the painting made its way to either Germany or Austria, however, the commartrecovery.org report you posted says there is a less credible, but alternate theory that the painting was taken directly from Hungary by the Red Army. In either case, at some point in 1945, the Red Army found the painting (somewhere near Berlin?) and took it back to Moscow. In February 1946, the painting was delivered from storage to the Gorky Art Museum, where it remained until 1957, when it was moved to the Grabar Institute for restoration. It was then moved to the Nizhny Novgorod State Art Museum for exhibition in 1996. That's all I've got so far. Thanks for your efforts. Viriditas (talk) 23:01, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You are very welcome, fun question. fiveby(zero) 19:55, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

October 2

Country traits of Sark vs. Alderney

Starting with introducing the problem: Lists of countries usually also contain territories which are not independent countries but have some self-administration and other country features (Greenland, American Samoa, Åland,...). For this reason, Guernsey has its own ISO-3166-1 alpha-3 code (GGY), its own top level domain (.gg), its own license plate bode (GBG) etc. - and so, it has an entry in Country codes: G #Guernsey. So far, so good.

Alderney belongs to the Bailiwick of Guernsey as a self-administered sub-jurisdiction. As such it has no ISO-3166-1 code, no top level domain... but it does have its own license plate code on country level, GBA, as recognized by the UNECE in the same way as independent countries, and as Guernsey. For this only reason, Alderney also has an entry in Country codes: A #Alderney.

Sark is another self-administered sub-jurisdiction of Guernsey... and it does not even have a license plate code for the simple reason that it does not allow cars on the island. The only motorised vehicles on the island are tractors which do not need a license plate.

So... is it accurate to say that Sark is a "country" as much and as little as Alderney is... but in contrast to Alderney, it cannot meaningfully be addd to the country code tables, as it does not have any internationally recognized country code? Is the entry situation in the tables optimal as it is? --KnightMove (talk) 09:24, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that Alderney has a licence plate code does not really say anything about the degree of "countryness" of Alderney vs. Sark. The licence plate codes have lived their own life from long before ISO-standards came to life. Licence plate codes that differ from ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 codes are reserved within the ISO system, but are expected to eventually be removed or replaced with proper ISO codes. Since Sark does not have licence plates, that will not be an issue for them. Alderney and Sark are in exactly the same formal position as constituent parts of the Bailiwick of Guernsey. The historically assigned licence plate code GBA does not change that in any way. --T*U (talk) 09:59, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so far. "Licence plate codes that differ from ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 codes are reserved within the ISO system, but are expected to eventually be removed or replaced with proper ISO codes." - I don't get it right now - in what way are they reserved? --KnightMove (talk) 11:27, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That means they are allowed to exist for the time being. 2A00:23D0:482:D001:E578:2121:89F:4D1E (talk) 11:53, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@KnightMove: 'Reserved' in this context means that even if they are not used in the ISO system (and therefore theoretically could be used for any new entity), they will not be allocated to any other entity until the time they are removed or replaced. --T*U (talk) 12:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For instance, garages got blocks of registration numbers which they used up as they registered the vehicles they sold. They were "reserved" to them, so if, say, an Oxford garage had the block AJO 100A to AJO 199A and registered AJO 150A, the next vehicle to be entered on the register with Oxford County Borough Council would only be AJO 151A if registered by the same garage. In the modern format e.g. AB22XYZ the last three letters are allocated randomly - I don't know how that affects the system. 2A00:23D0:482:D001:E578:2121:89F:4D1E (talk) 12:32, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As an analogy, that is rather far off. The point here is that ISO (voluntarily) do not use some of the codes they 'own' in order to avoid confusion with a different set of codes that is not under their control. --T*U (talk) 13:30, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's not exactly relevant for the question, but at least the ISO uses BRN for Brunei (IOC: Bahrain) or AUS for Australia (UNDP: Austria)?! --KnightMove (talk) 14:24, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I guess there are lots and lots of examples of conflicting country codes in different contexts. Different international bodies will often have made what they feel is the best coding for them, ignoring ISO (or preceding ISO-coding as in car plates). Just for fun, I checked the International Island Games Association, where both Alderney and Sark are members in their own right. In their result listings, they use ALD for Alderney and SAR for Sark (and GUE for Guernsey and JER for Jersey). None of these actually conflict with any active ISO codes. And it works for them... --T*U (talk) 14:50, 2 October 2022 (UTC) [reply]

CQ:

Status remark

Refers to the island of Sark and reserved at the request of the United Kingdom.

--Error (talk) 15:46, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A law against charging commission on Treasury bond trades?

American brokerages charge no commission on Treasury bill/note/bond trading. I don't believe they're altruistic, not least because I've never seen them advertise this fact, even as they proclaim no/low commissions on stock and corporate bond trades. So why don't they charge money for Treasury trades, if it's not illegal? Thank you. Imagine Reason (talk) 11:57, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As you can see from [13], in Britain there is a "bid" price which sellers get which is lower than the "offer" price which purchasers have to pay, as in all stock trading. I would imagine America is the same. 31.117.20.68 (talk) 12:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's true for all securities trades. Still other bond trades cost a minimum of $10, and if you consider the size of a minimum Treasuries trade, brokerages are moving a lot of money for free. Imagine Reason (talk) 15:15, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How did the Third Reich treat racist vigilantes?

No luck finding anything about this on Google Books.

What happened in the mid‐1930s when a German citizen murdered a Jew or a Romani? Did the police ignore it? Did the murderer have to pay 10¢ and spend twenty minutes in jail? What was the penalty (if any) for such unauthorized killing? — (((Romanophile))) ♞ (contributions) 16:12, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As I recall from the recent Ken Burns film about the Holocaust, when vandals attacked Jews, the cops stood by and did nothing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:11, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably, this would have been treated as any murder in the early 30's, before the Nazi seizure of power and specifically the Enabling Act of 1933. During the Kristallnacht of 1938 many Jews were murdered; the authorities did not intervene but in fact cooperated. One would assume that the transformation changing Jews and Romani from German citizens to vermin to be "lawfully" hunted and exterminated was not instantaneous, but required the normal court system to be taken over by Sondergerichte and anti-Nazi judges to be removed and placed by Nazi loyalists. --Lambiam 09:12, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Josef Hartinger and Moritz Flamm did try to do something. --Error (talk) 15:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

quote

"law is reason unaffected by desire" famously quoted by Aristotle. what is the philosophy behind the quote? Grotesquetruth (talk) 16:56, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Objectivity (philosophy). 136.56.52.157 (talk) 23:19, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Moral objectivity implies that certain moral rules are universally valid, but this is not implied by Aristotle's statement. His point is, rather, that those who govern should do so in an orderly fashion, according to rules laid down as law, and not by haphazardly following their whimsies. These laws need not be universal but may vary between states. Aristotle is arguing for the rule of law. --Lambiam 08:46, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

--Lambiam what did he mean by "unaffected by desire"? Grotesquetruth (talk) 08:46, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The phrase is from Aristotle's Politics, book 3, chapter 16, which you can read at wikisource in a rather old translation from 1776. You may be able to find more modern translations online or in a library or a book shop. --Wrongfilter (talk) 15:54, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised no 1 has mentioned conflict of interest and separation from emotional arguments. How bout when Kyle Rittenhouse was found not guilty for killing 2 men and shooting a 3rd, the vast majority of Americans were happy, but, not the family of the 1s he killed? Or how about when someone is killed by the police, while almost everyone else makes the "thank you police for your services" the person's family does not? So, emotional appeals seem to override strongly. 67.165.185.178 (talk) 00:00, 4 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]

I very strongly doubt whether "the vast majority of Americans were happy" about the events or outcome of the Kyle Rittenhouse case. AnonMoos (talk) 08:49, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

At the time, Biden tweeted, "the verdict in Kenosha will leave many Americans feeling angry and concerned, myself included". --Lambiam 15:02, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

socio-legal affairs

are there any paradoxical yet pressing socio-legal challenges/issues of the time? any specifics/deliberations on some pressing subject matter in question of interest? Grotesquetruth (talk) 17:24, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Which time? Ours, or Aristotle's (in view of your previous query)? {The poster formerly known as 87.81..230.195} 90.193.128.129 (talk) 20:47, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

as of current. Grotesquetruth (talk) 08:41, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can you think of an example? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:13, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Does the abortion debate qualify? There, two principles, that of the sanctity of life and that of a woman's right to choose appear to clash. --Lambiam 08:51, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

would you elaborate as to the contradictory forces in question? Grotesquetruth (talk) 06:30, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are those who consider abortion to be murder. That is an obvious clash with the concept of sanctity of life. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:49, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Abortion Gun control Death penalty States’ Rights Affirmative action DOR (HK) (talk) 15:09, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Apart from perhaps the last, all those seem particular to one country with less than 5% of the world's population. So the clarification needed is not just when, but where. HiLo48 (talk) 21:00, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

October 3

Saints Edern and Edeyrn

The same image (the name of which refers to the unrelated fr:Saint Herbot) is used to illustrate both Saint Edern and Saint Edeyrn. Wiki tells me

Edern = 9th century monk, possibly from Ireland or Wales
Edeyrn = 6th century saint from Wales

Both are mentioned as being connected to Lannédern in France. Question: Is this in fact the same saint? Is the image correctly labelled for any of the saints? As I don't have time to delve into this, can someone have a look. Thanks. Deadstar (talk) Deadstar (talk) 09:45, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The German Wikipedia page, de:Edern (Heiliger), has Edeyrn as a variant of Edern, but the only reference is a broken weblink. Alansplodge (talk) 12:38, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Edern mentioned here is clearly the same historical or mythological entity as the Edeyrn mentioned here, matching the description in our article Saint Edeyrn. --Lambiam 15:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) According to [14] Saint Edeyrn (feast day 6 January) was a British companion of King Arthur who became a recluse in Armonica, Brittany. This [15] says St Edern was a ninth-century Welsh hermit in Cornouaille, about 15 km from Quimper. This [16] (referenced in the article) says he died and is buried at Lannedern. It also says (in translation): "There exist two possible versions for the life of this saint who was patron, among other communities, of Lannerdern and Plouedern." Acccording to one Celtic legend he mapped out the bounds of his parish sitting on a deer. This [17] gives his saint's day as 30 August. This [18] says the perambulation was at the instigation of his sister Genevieve. 78.141.40.98 (talk) 16:16, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I did not find dates for Saint Edern in the two sources referenced in Saint Edern. The French Wikipedia also places him in the 9th century, but also without citation. this source about Breton given names does not consider the 9th century as certain. --Lambiam 16:45, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Breton language br:sant Edern article leads to that archeological society source, so the saint would have step foot on the ground near Quimper, first, in ~894. They are debating regarding him arriving from Ireland or Wales. --Askedonty (talk) 17:16, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This website gives a feast day for "St EDEYRN (OUEDERN)" as 6 January, so it seems unlikely that they are the same person. It also says that Edeyrn has a church dedicated to him in Brittany, which I haven't tracked down yet. Alansplodge (talk) 18:09, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Edern, Finistère a statue of the patron saint (Edeyrn, a Welsh missionary of the 7C) riding a stag[19] and Lannédern Parish close fiveby(zero) 20:04, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Riding a stag? the 9th century saint. In the Bulletin above ( a very bad OCR making it hard to decide), the author R.P. Plaine (Dom Plaine, Jean-françois Plaine) introduced his 1892 subject with "Ex?;ll.. neveu de saint Colomba et évêquè en Écosse", - genealogists to decide. There's a lot of confusion --Askedonty (talk) 21:16, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is said in some ancient documents that the vale of Edeymion had its name on becoming the domain of Edeym, a descendant of Cunedda Wledig, who lived in the former part of the 7th century. His pedigree is thus given in Bonedd y Saint—Edeyrn ab Nudd ab Beli ab Rhun ab Maelgwn Gwynedd ab Cadwallawn Law Hir ab Einiou Yrth ab Cunedda Wledigf Transactions of the Cymmrodorion. 1822.

Edeymion was actually named after an Edeyrn son of Cunedda Wledig [20][21] and not either of our saints.

Edeyrn, the son of Nudd ab Beli ab Rhun ab Maelgwn Gwynedd, was a bard, who embraced a life of sanctity, and the chapel of Bodedeyrn under Holyhead is dedicated to him. Some pedigrees say that the father of Edeyrn was Beli, omitting Nudd. Festival, Jan. 6. Rees, Rice (1836). An essay on the Welsh saints or the primitive Christians.

Jan. 6 Edeyrn the Bard (also Nov 11) in Sabine Baring-Gould's The Lives of the Saints

We also have Llanedeyrn, which is i think Aurdeyrn or Edeyrn or Faustus son of Gwrtheyrn Gwrthenau Aurdeyrn, ap Gwrtheyrn Gwrthenau oi ferch ei hîn, a fu'n Sant yn Llann Edeyrn yng Nghibwyr, lle mae ei Eglwys ef, ag yno y gorwedd: ag efe a wnaeth Gôr yno i drichant Seint, a'r Saeson ai torres yn amser Cadwaladr fendigaid.[22] and and Baring-Gould's Lives of the British Saints

So we definitely have two Welsh saints:

Edern, son of Ludd, the Bard, Bodedern (Jan. 6) and Llanedern (Dec. 22), of Arthurian Legend in the Mabinogion
Edeyrn son of Vortigern, Llanedeyrn (Aug. 30 or Nov. 11) and associated with the stag

Baring-Gould has the same Edeyrn in Brittany in Edern, Finistère and Lannédern, but still need more work to see if this is a separate 9c saint born in Brittany. fiveby(zero) 22:13, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But why are you associating Edeyrn son of Vortigern with the stag ? I thought the stag was part of the legend of Edern, deceased in Lannédern, Brittany? --Askedonty (talk) 22:30, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)You are right, i was just going to edit that. Baring-Gould associates him with the stag, and includes a stained glass from Plogonnec. We're not sure yet he is correct. fiveby(zero) 22:36, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I see. I see also now, after reading it better, that Jean-François Plaine may be not entirely convinced himself 9C a fully coherent date for a relevant migration in the related era. He may in fact be leaving a freehand to the lawyer who was analysing the tale primarily (in 1776) and perhaps had had access to notarial like data usefull in a datation. --Askedonty (talk) 23:00, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

EDEYRN, 'santo. Non si conoscono ne i genitori ne la vita di E. Infatti, sono necessarie prove piu convincenti per accettare la storia accolta dal Baring-Gould Bibliotheca Sanctorum. 1964.

Baring-Gould has Edeyrn raised by Germanus of Man and died 522, but our (poorly referenced) St Edeyrn's Church has him an associate of Saint Isan, founding 535 and buried in the churchyard.

Comment: Thank you all for your research! So in short, there should be two separate entries for these two saints as they are not the same. The stag could be for either of them. The articles may benefit from some of the information you all unearthed. Deadstar (talk) 10:21, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Tracking down scan of Ezra Stiles manuscript

I'm looking for a scan of the original manuscript "A vocabulary of the Pequot Indians, obtained by Ezra Stiles in 1762 at Groton, Connecticut" / "MS 5 Pequot vocabulary". I have not been able to locate a copy. I have found an academic article that transcribes it, but I'd like to see the original if possible. It might simply be that nobody has digitized it yet. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 18:38, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind, found it. It's in Ezra Stiles Papers, Series V, "Miscellanies", pp. 449-454. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 18:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

October 4

Andrew Carnegie at Whitman's lecture

Can anyone track down the origin of the claim that Carnegie did not attend Whitman's lecture on Lincoln? The earliest source I found is Jerome Loving's highly reputable Whitman: The Song of Himself (1999), but all of his sources for the claim describe Whitman as having been in attendance, as far as I can tell, including Whitman's published correspondence and Traubel's With Whitman in Camden. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 02:08, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Loving doesn't say he didn't attend, but did not occupy the box he rented. Kennedy (p. 26-7) has James Russell Lowell, John Burroughs and Charles Eliot Norton in the box to his right, Edmund Clarence Stedman and family opposite, with Carnegie in attendance. I only see two boxes in this interior view of Madison Square Theatre. I know that's a stretch, but Loving cites Kennedy nearby. fiveby(zero) 04:13, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hm, that's an interesting point. ~~Loving's statement~~ Pannapacker is cited by Blake (2006) as saying that Carnegie wasn't there [23], so I hadn't considered that possibility. Let me see if I can find anything else on that. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:15, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Archive has Blake, so you can follow the citations. ""A Tribute from a Poet"". The New York Times. April 15, 1887. has Carnegie in attendance, as does Kaplan. He doesn't cite Loving, but Pannapacker. Pannapacker cites "A Tribute from a Poet". I don't see Pannapacker or Loving citing evidence that he did not attend. Daniel Mark Epstein has a very detailed account in Lincoln and Whitman with more primary sources to examine. fiveby(zero) 14:32, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, corrected Blake. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:39, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

here's an 1887 source suggesting Carnegie was unable to attend Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We may, then, never know, if contemporary sources give contradictory accounts. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:53, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Traubel (p. 513) describes Whitman as saying merely "Andrew Carnegie paid $350 for his seat", no commentary about whether he was there. Whitman apparently didn't get Carnegies check until April 20. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:58, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at LOC newspapers some have him seated in the pit, while New-York Tribune doesn't list as attending, and with others places his arrival in New York the evening of the 15th. fiveby(zero) 15:22, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Found the Tribune says that he arrived on the evening of the 15th, was too ill to see anyone. The Sun says much the same. Could you highlight the article describing him seated in the pit? I can't seem to find it. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 16:22, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Walt Whitman Lectures on Lincoln". The Indianapolis Journal. April 15, 1887.
same article text as "The Good Gray Poet". Morning Journal and Courier. New Haven. April 15, 1887.

I'm wondering if Carnegie didn't actually write two checks for $350. There's a letter from Johnston to Whitman implying he needs $350 to secure the venue, i can't remember if it's in Daybooks , Correspondence, or With Walt Whitman. He sends the "Whitman is the great poet of America so far" letter to Johnston with $350 enclosed. Later says somewhere that all the proceeds should go to Whitman, and then Whitman receives a $350 check in a letter from Gilder on the 20th. fiveby(zero) 15:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here's Johnston's letter (March 14, 1887). There's also this one (March 24, 1887) Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 16:26, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I saw it in WWC II, p. 430, with "I talked with you about Johnston yesterday: well, this will show you the practical nature of his camaraderie. Johnston is always turning up the pennies but spends the pounds with a certain sort of abandon. He is the kind of a man who might play with riches and die poor—though he's mighty comfortable fixed, I should imagine, as things are going now. This letter gives you a little look in on Johnston for one thing—then adds a point or two of history for keeps." fiveby(zero) 16:28, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In The Correspondence of Whitman vol. 4 p. 85-88, Whitman mentions the check in a few letters, but doesn't provide much more information other than to repeatedly say he got it and was happy. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 16:39, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've had a look at several major bios of Carnegie as well, and two mention it and say he was there (either without citing a source or citing Whitman's letter mentioning it) and the rest don't mention it at all, unfortunately Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 15:06, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Fiveby, for what it's worth, I emailed Loving to ask and he said he was not exactly sure and included the footnote citing the sources we dug up in this discussion now in Walt Whitman's lectures on Abraham Lincoln. Very good work, thanks. I don't think we will find a much better answer than this disagreement between sources... Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 15:44, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

correlation/relationship?

how are legal rights, interests, duty and wrongs correlative of one another in rule of law and their application? Grotesquetruth (talk) 08:50, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One could make a five-dimensional hypercube chart with on axis 1 various legal rights, on axis 2 various interests, on axis 3 various duties, on axis 4 various wrongs, and on axis 5 various jurisdictions. Their interaction, in each of the numerous hypercells, may be different, and the actual application may differ from the written law. Very much in general, confining the question to civil issues, a legal wrong (aka tort) is a violation of an individual's legal rights. The offending party, that is, the party who committed the tortious act, then has the duty to provide an appropriate remedy. The injured party seeking redress should have a genuine interest in the matter (but the onus of establishing that no such interest exists is on the offending party). --Lambiam 10:11, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One could almost say, using a loosely deterministic approach, that the only degree of freedom in that system is in the definition of duty. One could also retort it is in the definition of tort, but deciders in the end are only using scales extending from interest to duty as judges are by definition themselves unrelated to tort. Variations among systems can very well be considered as determined by semantics, with no other degree of freedom than outside evolution introduced in poetry and by linguists (usually constraining). --Askedonty (talk) 10:41, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

quote

Paul Freund once said 'the Court should never be influenced by the weather of the day, but inevitably they will be influenced by the climate of the era'. what does the quote mean with respect to existing national legal frameworks? Grotesquetruth (talk) 09:48, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The quote is not about frameworks. It is meant to apply equally in all jurisdictions that follow the rule of law, regardless of the specific legal framework. --Lambiam 10:18, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

yes but the change in climate would mean that these jurisdictions will have to alter laws that work best in the climate of the jurisdiction? Grotesquetruth (talk) 11:49, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The "change in climate" will sometimes be expressed in specific laws (or repeal of specific laws) but may also be expressed extra-legally: in writing, in journalism, at pubs and dinner-parties, on the streets, and today in electronic media. ColinFine (talk) 12:06, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The literal words, as spoken by Paul A. Freund in 1971, are, "I think a President should try to appoint Justices who are sensitive to the climate of the age, not the weather of the day or the weather of the year, but the climate of the age." He clarified that the climate of the age was one of "increasing sensitivity toward human rights" and "large conceptions of equality under law".^[24] In the paraphrase by RBG, "the Court" refers specifically to the Supreme Court. --Lambiam 14:47, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Second Italian War of Independence

Was Bologna under siege by Austria, albeit briefly, in 1859 ? This concerns the article Eduardo Majeroni, who was reported as being involved in its defence. Doug butler (talk) 11:13, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bologna was in the hands of the Austrian Empire. The siege was carried out by the armies of Cavour and Napolean III. So Majeroni was involved in the attack, not the defence. --Lambiam 14:30, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Either way, there seems not to have been any sort of siege in Bologna in 1859. Following the Battle of Solferino in the Second Italian War of Independence, the French and Austrians agreed the Villafranca Armistice in June (for which Wikipedia does not have an article). Bologna was the principal city of the Papal States (aka the Papal Legations), which the Austrians were defending on behalf of the Papacy. One of the terms of the armistice was that Austria should evacuate their forces from the Papal States, which they did. There was a liberal uprising against Papal rule in Bologna, and the departure of the Austrians ensured its success. [25] Alansplodge (talk) 20:58, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both for clear and succinct answers. We are fortunate to have such a resource as this panel. Doug butler (talk) 21:10, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) This timeline of Bologna in 1859 (in Italian) has more details than you could shake a stick at, but no siege. Alansplodge (talk) 21:12, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have footnoted it as a strategy rather than a confrontation. I'll leave the Italian text to mu correspondent. Doug butler (talk) 21:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

the idea of globalisation

Has the idea of "globalisation" been fully adjusted to its true meaning? Grotesquetruth (talk) 14:15, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That would depend on what you mean by “globalization”… different people define the term in different ways. Blueboar (talk) 14:28, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What is, in your view, the "true" meaning? --Lambiam 14:35, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Blueboar (talk) I think the idea is to unify all governments, nationalities in all respects or at least attempt to. Grotesquetruth (talk) 18:44, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, the term is not “globalization,” but “one-world government.” The two are unrelated concepts. DOR (HK) (talk) 20:47, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Globalization is the reduction of barriers to the movement among economies of goods, services, capital, people, and ideas. It could credibly be credited with generating more wealth, and reducing more poverty, than any development since the on-set of industrial revolution. DOR (HK) (talk) 20:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)Check Globalization and see if that squares with your theory. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:48, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That some believe one-world government could arise out of globalization does not mean that such politically motivated assertions have any basis in logic. “Coulda, woulda, shoulda,” as my wife says. DOR (HK) (talk) 20:53, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

rule of law

the rule of law implies that the creation of laws, their enforcement, and the relationships among legal rules are themselves legally regulated. what is meant by being "legally regulated" here or who regulates these laws? Grotesquetruth (talk) 18:19, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have to ask: are you getting these questions about law and the rule of law from a textbook or essay paper of some kind? They seem weirdly formulaic, and I feel that some of your later questions (including this one) would be unnecessary if you had followed up our earlier responses with a modest amount of reading around the subject. GenevieveDEon (talk) 18:27, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

oh no, just a subject of interest. here to form better clarity of the area. Grotesquetruth (talk) 18:52, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"X is legally regulated" means the same as: "X is regulated by law", that is, the law lays down the rules that pertain to X. --Lambiam 09:54, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(academic title) in residence vs visiting

A scholar-in-residence on a visit to a University, say for four or five days; is that OK? OED has residence in this sense thus: "The fact of living or staying regularly at or in some place for the discharge of special duties, or to comply with some regulation; also, the period during which such stay is required of one. Now freq. in phrase in residence. a.2.a Eccl., with ref. to the presence of incumbents in their benefices, canons in their cathedrals, etc." Wouldn't it take more than a few days to be in-residence? An academic on a short visit is a visiting scholar rather than a scholar-in-residence. Am I right? 2405:201:F00A:206C:E59F:9B36:1107:1963 (talk) 19:26, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One thought: who pays for housing? A visitor may pay her own way, but residency implies lodging is provided. DOR (HK) (talk) 20:56, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Visiting scholars can be in residence for a surprisingly long time. User:Chris Bennett said in the first iteration of his user page (back in 2005) "...lived in London for several years before moving to San Diego, where he has stayed, so far, for about 20 years longer than he expected to when he arrived." He was still a "visiting scholar" at UCSD when he died in 2014. 92.8.223.188 (talk) 18:16, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. That page of the deceased Wikipedian took me a long way. I guess experts had a hard time trying to maintain a page they majorly contributed to in good shape. Sad.

Calling a professorial short visit to an academic institution 'scholar-in-residence' is not something we see with reputed institutions, I guess. 2405:201:F00A:206C:34C0:13DF:CF18:853E (talk) 08:14, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why didn't Grey receive his BA?

According to our article Edward Grey, 1st Viscount Grey of Fallodon "by January 1884 he had been sent down but allowed to return to sit his final examination. Grey returned in the summer and achieved Third Class honours in Jurisprudence. Though he was entitled to receive a BA, he never received one. He would receive an honorary doctorate of law from Oxford in 1907". I would like to know why he didn't receive his BA, and, given that he was allowed to sit Finals, was he actually sent down or was he in fact rusticated? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:18, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Grey of Fallodon : being the life of Sir Edward Grey afterwards Viscount Grey of Fallodon by Trevelyan, George Macaulay (1940) p. 20 quotes the "~~Baliol~~ Balliol minute-book":

Sir Edward Grey, having been repeatedly admonished for idleness, and having shown himself ignorant of the work set him during the vacation as a condition of residence, was sent down, but allowed to come up to pass his examination in June.

The author goes on to say that he "took a Third in Jurisprudence, which, together with his Second in Classical Moderations of three years before, entitled him to a B.A. degree. But he neglected to take it...", perhaps preoccupied with the bird sanctuary at Fallodon which he had established after being sent down. Alansplodge (talk) 11:02, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would question whether he was entitled to the degree if he had really been sent down (expelled from the University), rather than just rusticated (excluded for a limited time). I don't know how things worked in Oxford in the 1880s, but when I was at Cambridge in the 1970s there was a rule that you had to be resident in Cambridge for a certain number of days to be eligible for the BA. So, if a similar rule applied, even if he had only been rusticated he would have ha to spend some extra time in residence to compensate for his absence during the rustication. Perhaps evidence that he had passed the exam would be of value even in the absence of a degree. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 14:42, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

When I was there, there were three "l"'s in "Balliol". Clicking on Alansplodge's link confirms it. 92.8.223.188 (talk) 18:05, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, a slip of the digit, now corrected. Alansplodge (talk) 20:15, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

October 5

Turnus's attempted suicide in Bk 10

Unexpectedly, I'm having a hard time finding any significant discussion on the enraged and frustrated Turnus, led away from battle by a specter of Aeneas. JSTOR is less than helpful--but surely there is discussion of this, right? Can you help me (and a student)? Drmies (talk) 01:39, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find a significant discussion either, but obviously Turnus is not merely frustrated; he feels humiliated, his honour squashed because it looks as if he cowardly avoided the battle – in his despair, overwhelmed by shame, death seems the better choice than living on in shame and dishonour. --Lambiam 09:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be a whole chapter in Vergil's Aeneid and Greek Tragedy: Ritual, Empire, and Intertext (Cambridge University Press) discussing it in the context of Roman ritual. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 14:16, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Duckworth, George E. (February 1940). "Turnus as a Tragic Character". JSTOR 45419502. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help) "Turnus AND Tragedy" seems a useful search to find discussion, also "Turnus AND Ajax". fiveby(zero) 14:57, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

doctrines

how is "due process of law" different from "procedure established by law". Grotesquetruth (talk) 08:40, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Due process requires handling in accordance with all rules established by law. These rules may or may not define specific procedures to be followed. Hearsay is generally not accepted as evidence. This is a rule, not a procedure. If a court, acting against this rule, allows inadmissible hearsay to be used as evidence, leading to a conviction, the due process rights of the defendant have been violated. --Lambiam 09:30, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Eurasia Party Election Results

The Eurasia Party is neo-facist party in russia. It (or it's chairman) is said to have sigificant influence on the policies of Putin, especialy the invations in recent years.

Has it ever participated in elections and how many votes did it achive? 84.143.248.146 (talk) 16:41, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Eurasian Economic Integration: Law, Policy and Politics (p. 90) says that in a coalition called "Great Russia - Eurasia Party" it contested the 2003 Russian legislative election but only polled 0.3% of the vote, giving them one solitary seat of 450 in the State Duma. BTW, I'm not sure that a party based on Communism can properly be called Fascist, their ideology is described in our article as National Bolshevism, but they do have some points in common. Alansplodge (talk) 20:36, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that's the same group. From ru.wiki article on 2003 elections, the leadership of that coalition doesn't seem to have be linked with Dugin. --Soman (talk) 21:00, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

October 6

Is the Non-Aligned Movement actually a serious organization?

Were the member countries of the Non-Aligned Movement actually non-aligned in practice during the Cold War or was that just for show? I mean Indonesia's Suharto and his regime was completely aligned with the West from the moment he exterminated more than 1 million people in the country and yet he was still elected chair of the organization from 1992 to 1995. And then there was Cuba which did not try to hide the fact that it was allied with the Eastern Bloc. StellarHalo (talk) 03:25, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Bandung Conference of 1955 was very serious, but as time went on, the Non-Aligned Movement welcomed members like Cuba, whose "non-alignment" was very questionable, and at it least partly took on the character of an alliance of dictators against democracies. It became much less important in world affairs after the end of the cold war, and today it's just another "G" group like the G-77 or whatever, and not the most influential one... AnonMoos (talk) 05:04, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing a drawing of Sybilla of Anjou

Dear reference desk,

Over at Commons we are having a discussion on this depiction of Sybilla of Anjou. A tiny image of the whole page can be found by a Google reverse search.

Does anyone here have an idea what the original source manuscript could be? Felix QW (talk) 09:51, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Does a petition for divorce need to be sought free of duress?

Lets imagine a courtroom in a family court in some jurisdiction. For simplicity's sake, we'll pretend that the parties are representing themselves, rather than being represented by counsel:

WIFE: "I am petitioning for divorce from my husband."

HUSBAND (to the judge): "My wife doesn't really want this divorce; she loves me, and, were she free to make her own choice, would stay with me. It's just that her parents, who despise me, have threatened to disinherit her unless she leaves me!"

JUDGE (to the wife): "Is this true?"

WIFE: "yes! I love my husband, don't want to leave him if I had the choice, but I can't afford for my parents to cut me out of their will".

(end scene)

Ok. So there's the scene. Now, my question is, how would or should the judge react, and rule on either granting or refusing the divorce petition?

I gather that a marriage needs to be entered into under both parties' genuine free will, in order to be considered legally valid and binding. (The days when parents could legally forcefully choose their child's spouse are generally over, at least in the western world).

Now, a divorce, unlike a marriage, can generally be sought by only one party. BUT does that party need to be seeking the divorce of their own free will, free from duress or "undue influence"? Assuming the situation in the hypothetical courtroom above (where the petitioner was not disputing that a third party was the "driver" for seeking the divorce), would any judge see the law as allowing (or even requiring) him or her to reject the divorce petition? Has this question ever arisen? I'd be interested in answers from any western jurisdiction, or even answers on the legal theory.

(Yes, I know that in some jurisdictions, the husband could sue his father-in-law for Alienation of affections, but that's not really my question).

Disclaimer: I am not in this situation, nor do I know anybody who is, ergo this is not a request for legal advice. Post your disagreement if you disagree.

@John M Baker: I know family law is not your specialty, but given that you're a lawyer, I'm still curious if you have any musings to offer. @Neutrality: you, too, have shed light on legal dilemmas here before, so I welcome your thoughts. Others are invited to answer too, obviously. Eliyohub (talk) 09:56, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttp://esri.com/arcgis-blog/products/product/mapping/quick-tint-bands

[form_line_mw-2] "form line". https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/form%20line. {{cite encyclopedia}}: |work= ignored (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)

[imhof-3] Imhof, Eduard (1982). "Hachures and Other Related Techniques". Cartographic Relief Presentation.

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