Talk:Alternative medicine

Recreate IM article?

Hello @Valjean:, Over ten years ago, I noticed that integrative medicine was equated with complementary and alternative medicine and tried to change that here. As you noted, a consensus was reached at the time to keep them as if they are the same thing.

I'd like to reopen this discussion and invite others to join in. Ten years ago, the term Integrative Medicine was not yet "codified", so there was some basis, at the time, for calling it the same as alternative medicine. But over the past ten years that has changed - a lot. Integrative Medicine is practiced by all the major medical schools and hospitals and health networks. The practices under Integrative Medicine are ONLY those practices for which substantial evidence for efficacy and efficiency has been developed. I would like to create a draft Integrative Medicine page and put all of my sources and evidence on it for further discussion, but am not sure about the best way to go about doing that. Can you advise me please? CJ (talk) 18:50, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I like your idea. It will give everyone a chance to see if the result has merit, especially the newer RS you will use.

I suggest you create the draft at User:Cjrhoads/Draft_Integrative_Medicine. You can copy material from this article, its archives, and the history at Integrative Medicine, where it used to be a separate article. Don't try to recreate the article in article space before a discussion here. The current redirect should not be changed without that discussion. -- Valjean (talk) 19:28, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

That's a good idea. I'll work on it when the University semester is over. Thanks for the encouragement.

CJ (talk) 14:43, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm curious about which AM practices fit under "ONLY those practices for which substantial evidence for efficacy and efficiency has been developed." Please list them. As you may well know, any practice which has such evidence is not called "alternative medicine"; it's just called "medicine". IM and CAM are rightly accused of being attempts to sneak/rename AM quackery into medicine. That's a hurdle you'll need to deal with and discuss in your new article as it's a major criticism. IM and CAM are areas which reveal that anyone, especially hospital administrators, will do anything for money, and adding acupuncture, homeopathy, and such like does draw in more patients and makes more money, even when they do nothing more than give comfort. Such decisions are based on financial considerations, not scientific evidence, but they of course obfuscate and attempt to pass off their decisions as scientifically plausible. Unfortunately they cannot provide anything but the weakest of "evidence" while showing an increase in profits. That's how capitalism works. It isn't evidence-based. -- Valjean (talk) 19:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Valjean,

I don't plan to get into the "it's all for money" concept because there are too many examples of standard modern western medicine providing therapies of dubious value "just for the money". Let's just agree that both standard western medicine and alternative and complementary medicine each has its share of bad actors who utilize therapies of dubious value because it lines their pockets rather than help the patient. They also both have the MAJORITY of practioners who are just trying to do the best they can for their patients - and sometimes modern western medicine doesn't have the answers while other systems do have the answers.

However, your point - that we don't want quackery to enter into integrative medicine is well understood and agreed upon. From the beginning I have been a dogged researcher who will not allow either personal feelings or financial considerations bias my research. And I'm not alone. Most integrative healthcare practitioners are well aware that we must be diligent against fraudulent practices that don't actually benefit the patient. For example - magnets have pretty much be debunked entirely by medical research, while acupunture, medication, tai chi , qigong, yoga, Pilates, and other activities have been supported - some of them strongly - by the medical research that has been done on them. I noticed that you mentione acupuncture as quackery - but I believe you need to reread the medical research on that topic. Even insurance companies now cover that practice, so it is likely considered "medicine" and not "alternative" by most doctors.

And, of course, here's the info I shared with you on my talk page: CJ (talk) 14:53, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Here is the list:

Nutritional support such as: botanicals, vitamins and minerals, and probiotics.

Physical Activities such as: tai chi, yoga, acupuncture, massage therapy, spinal manipulation, art therapy, music therapy, dance, mindfulness-based stress reduction, meditation, breathing exercises and guided imagery, qigong, hypnotherapy, Feldenkrais method, Alexander technique, Pilates, Rolfing Structural Integration, and Trager psychophysical integration.

Acupuncture

Cognitive Practices such as Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or Dialectic Behavior Therapy.

That is based on the NIH (Whats In A Name) and on MantraCare

Another good source is:Academic Consortium for Integrative Medicine & Health.

Medical Schools with Integrative Medicine are:

Osher Center For Integrative Medicine at Harvard Medical School

Osher Center For Integrative Medicine Vanderbilt Medical School

Mayo clinic

And, of course, all the members of the Academic Consortium for Integrative Medicine & Health

Once I get a chance to create the draft page, I will be able to post extensive high quality systematic reviews of a variety of integrative medicine and health practices. But as I said, I won't have time until May.

CJ (talk) 15:00, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

CJ, I asked you above for a list of those practices that fit "ONLY those practices for which substantial evidence for efficacy and efficiency has been developed" and decided to do a bit of research. I used the American Board of Physician Specialties link provided above by FloresTindall and found this page: Integrative Medicine Examination Description There I found two sections:

Complementary Modalities

• Manual Therapies
• Biofield Therapies
• Acupuncture
• Movement Therapies
• Expressive Arts

Whole Medical Systems

• Traditional Chinese Medicine
• Ayurveda
• Indigenous Medical Systems
• Homeopathic Medicine
• Naturopathic Medicine
• Osteopathic Medicine
• Chiropractic
• Functional Medicine

Right off the bat we see several fully quackish and unscientific items in the Whole Medical Systems section (which I have wikilinked for convenience), the worst, IMO, being Homeopathy. Wow! Just study those articles to see what RS say about them. None of them fit the "ONLY those practices for which substantial evidence for efficacy and efficiency has been developed", with the exception of Osteopathic Medicine, which is fully modern mainstream medicine, not AM. What is really meant is Osteopathy, which is AM. We have two articles here to make the difference. -- Valjean (talk) 03:05, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

For convenience I have also included the AM series box we include on many of these articles. -- Valjean (talk) 03:05, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I think you might be confusing approaches to medicine with actual practices of medicine. Most of the "Whole Medical Systems" are simply non-reductive ways to treat patients. Again, there is some research evidence that treating a patient without considering the "whole" body and mind is not nearly as effective as treating patients considering both the body and the mind.

You appear to have a ricochet bias against anything that isn't reductionist, and don't appear willing to actually look at the research that decides WHICH of the actual PRACTICES are evidence-based, and which are not.

Rather than utilizing general lists of modalities and approaches, I prefer to utilize a laser-focused attention on ONLY those practices for which there is medical evidence, and (perhaps) those practices for which we have not YET developed enough evidence but which appear to be helpful without any harmful effects or costs to the patient.

I wish I had more time right now to discuss this more deeply, but I have to teach a class. I will return in May, create the draft page, and continue this conversation.

CJ (talk) 15:08, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

CJ, I look forward to your draft. Feel free to contact me by email. I'd like to know what you teach. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:50, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

@Valjean: - I think this is pinging Valjean. Could you please help me on the page you set up for me? User:Cjrhoads/Draft Integrative Medicine CJ (talk) 15:21, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

CJ and FloresTindall I need at least one good RS which clearly states that Integrative Medicine are ONLY those practices for which substantial evidence for efficacy and efficiency has been developed. -- Valjean (talk) 15:22, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I am really looking forward to getting my hand on reliable sources for IM efficacy. Baits Breath -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 15:57, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

@Valjean: The problem is that Wikipedia does not follow RS for lumping integrative medicine in with alternative medicine, does it? Can you show me anything other than "skeptic" sources that does? Everything I find on the internet, from sources such as Harvard here, to Cleveland Clinic refer to integrative medicine as something either more or different than alternative medicine. You're not going to convince people just by saying "it's true because I said it!" And you're certainly not going to convince anyone because "capitalism" when conventional medicine is also "capitalism". Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 16:48, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

?? Right above, the ABPS (a RS) exam for IM covers many AM practices. When mainstream medical practitioners "integrate" AM practices with their mainstream medicine it's called "Integrative Medicine". If that doesn't define IM, then what does? Do you know of RS that say otherwise? It's really simple and easy to understand. -- Valjean (talk) 17:45, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

That's my whole point. In the lead for the alternative medicine article it says, integrative medicine (IM), and holistic medicine are among many rebrandings... of alternative medicine. But integrated medicine IS NOT a synonym or "rebranding" of alt medicine is it? It's defined by all sources, including yours, as a combination of alt and conventional therapies, and should be defined that way. What part of this is hard to understand? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 18:11, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

It's not hard to understand, and I agree that wording should be tweaked. How's this? integrative medicine (IM), and holistic medicine are among many rebrandings to describe various ways alternative medicine is combined with mainstream medicine. I think that small change can resolve the matter without starting huge discussions and edit warring. -- Valjean (talk) 17:33, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for hearing me out. I think that's a lot better yes. Personally, I would tweak that to integrative medicine (IM), and holistic medicine are terms used to describe various ways alternative medicine is combined with mainstream medicine. But I would personally be fine either way. I just think "rebranding" is an odd word to stick in the lead of an article. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 18:03, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done Now it reads: Complementary medicine (CM), complementary and alternative medicine (CAM), integrated medicine or integrative medicine (IM), and holistic medicine are among many rebrandings that describe various ways alternative medicine is combined with mainstream medicine. I hope that is a reasonable solution. Your concern was justified. It was indeed awkwardly written. -- Valjean (talk) 23:19, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the collaborative spirit (and for enlightening me on the functioning of the industry a bit). I think it reads much better now, and I hope others agree. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 18:06, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

To illustrate, let's imagine how two construction workers (AM & MM) use their tools on different projects. In this example, each usually works with two completely different types of tools and builds different kinds of buildings for different kinds of customers, although there is overlap; some customers like both, so they make separate work orders from each one.

AM's tools are pretty, esoteric, and really feel good stuff! MM's tools are fairly rigid and boring colors.

MM decides he wants to add AM's pretty tools to his toolbox. When MM uses all those tools together, he is practicing IM because he has "integrated" AM's tools into his construction practice. Now MM snags more of AM's customers who can now get the best of both worlds with one order.

AM + MM = IM. That's how it works. -- Valjean (talk) 18:05, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

So in your example, would you say that that the IM he is practicing is 100% not effective? Do the AM tools spoil the whole toolbox? Because that's what this article definitively states. That IM is a synonym, or rebranding, of alt medicine, and that alt medicine, and thereffor conventional medicine that integrates it, "is not effective." Simple logical fallacy, you see? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 18:17, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

No. "100% not effective" is an extreme interpretation. That means 0% effective. It just means that the addition is less effective. While the AM may provide some psychological comfort effects (a nice thing), it doesn't seriously contribute to the physiological healing effects of the mainstream methods, and in some cases may actually weaken the overall effect. It also adds to the cost for the patient as many insurance companies will not cover methods that lack strong evidence, so the patient must pay for it. Unfortunately, the provider usually doesn't (never?!) make it clear that the AM methods being used aren't proven effective. If the IM practitioner is being honest and explains to their cancer patient that the addition of massage, aromatherapy, etc. is for comfort and does not have any curative effect on cancer, then I see no problem with it. False marketing is quackery, gives false hope, and literally empties the patient's bank account. Truth in advertising is good, but it's rare for this stuff, as the pretense of effect, a marketing ploy, is why it's done at all. Massage is great for musculoskeletal issues, but not for curing cancer.

If I had used bricklayers as the example above, the IM practitioner is adding nicely colored bricks of dubious strength to his wall. The cool patterns are prettier, good for marketing, and increases profits, thus fooling the patient. It also adds no real strength to the wall and actually weakens it. -- Valjean (talk) 17:33, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Lego bricks. pretty but useless in the real building world. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 19:35, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Proof Homoeopathy is not pseudoscience

Proof 19 million users in authentic Homoeopathy alone Post graduate courses in Uk enrolls many GPs in homoeopathic course, No updates based on latest reasearch articles

This is not personal opinion , but bringing to notice facts to preserve authenticity of Wikipedia. 86.190.168.98 (talk) 12:12, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

That isn’t proof. Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 12:18, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

bruh lol Python Drink (talk) 16:16, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Global Poverty and Practice

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2022 and 15 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Angelica.gnlz (article contribs).

Request to reconsider Integrative Medicine/Integrative Health having its own page

Hi, All. I'm back. In March, I came here to make the case that Integrative Medicine and Integrative Health is NOT the same thing, nor a re-branding, of Alternative Medicine. I ran out of time because I teach at Kutztown University in Pennsylvania and (and also just finished teaching a course at SPWS in Warsaw, which is why I am coming back in June instead of May). (Someone asked what do I teach, and I teach a variety of courses including Business Leadership, Entrepreneurship, Business Data Management and Information Systems, Project Management, Small Business Management, and many others. I've been teaching at Kutztown for 18 years, and before that had been involved in 4 entrepreneurial startups [two successful, two not-so-much] and a Vice President for two Fortune 500 Financial Firms (MBNA and First USA, now Bank of America and Chase).

While I'm not a medical doctor, I have been involved in Integrative Health and in doing Health Economics Research for many years. I also was in a very bad car accident twenty years ago that forced me to pay attention to integrative medicine since modern western medicine did not have an answer for the type of severe back pain that resulted from the injuries of the accident. Integrative Medicine helped - a lot. That does not make me biased, however, because I am at heart a scientist, and I looked for proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that my situation was not a fluke or a one-off. In 2002 there was very little research on Integrative Medicine. In 2012 when I looked there wasn't too much more. But for the past ten years the amount of research has been building. The research indicates that Integrative Health practices and Integrative Medicine is an effective branch of modern western medicine (despite having its foundations in ancient practices of other cultures). It is my goal to introduce the editors of Wikipedia to that research so that they can understand why it is so important to enable Integrative Medicine to stop being redirected to Alternative Medicine and instead allow it to be a page on its own.

I am a college professor, not a full time Wikipedia editor, so I ask for forgiveness in advance for not knowing all the rules. I've tried to read all the guidelines, but I'm never sure when I'm doing things right, so I ask for your help and support in the logistics of my quest.

It was suggested that I create a first draft for Integrative Medicine (and the redirected Integrative Health) on my own talk page, so that is what I will be doing. I hope to finish it within the next week. In the meantime, feel free to look at the draft I've been working on and provide me with any help/support/suggestions that you would like.

CJ (talk) 17:04, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

OK. I observe that User:Cjrhoads/Draft Integrative Medicine has no content, so it seems a bit premature to announce it here. Whatever you write there, be sure that any medical claims cite sources that are compliant with WP:MEDRS. That is a pretty high hurdle. It isn't enough to cite individual research studies; the sources need to be surveys of such studies. ~Anachronist (talk) 17:30, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Just to note that I would have used the word "review" instead of "survey" in Anachronist's post above. It has a specific meaning, yes? I look forward with interest to research that indicates that Integrative Health practices and Integrative Medicine is an effective branch of modern western medicine. I do wonder why the research of the last ten years hasn't surfaced on wikipedia yet, given the amount of retrophrenologists, homeopaths, acupuncturists and urine therapists we get around here, all plugging their woo of choice. Sorry for the rant, but sheesh. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 21:21, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

First - many apologies to all. I was working on my own talk page, not the page you had set up for me. (I'm not very well versed in getting all the details of how Wikipedia works, but I'm doing my best and learning fast. I'd love for you to help me with that part of it)

I now have put the first draft (which is actually my 4th draft, but you didn't see the others) in the right place (I think). User:Cjrhoads/Draft_Integrative_Medicine.

Second - I will review WP:MEDRS and fix whatever doesn't fit. I actually haven't gotten to the actual systematic reviews of the evidence of efficacy yet - I'm still working on that part. For now I just posted links to other sources of information about the systematic reviews and other studies. I would say I've only done about 25% of what I plan to post. But I'd like to get some help and suggestions as I go along instead of waiting until its finished.

Third = please try and keep an open mind. I know that you've been fighting against the "woo of choice" for a very long time. It hasn't been easy for centers for Integrative Medicine to separate the wheat from the chaffe (i.e. valuable therapies that are just now being taught in western medical schools being the wheat, and quackery being the chaffe). But that's where we need to look at the actual research and not rely upon what you may THINK you knew. For example, there is lots of research that shows that acupunture has beneficial effects, so that's integrative medicine. Retrophrenologists and homeopaths and urine therapists and whatever else you may mention has not made the cut, so you need to separate out those. In the last twenty years there's been a concerted effort to figure out what really works, and what doesn't. So please don't diss something until you've read the research on it. :-> CJ (talk) 03:11, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

CJ, I'll respond to this in more detail when you've started to give us some WP:MEDRS sources, particularly the ones on Acupuncture, but in the meantime please note that if my mind was more open, it would be dribbling out of the holes in my ears !!! - Roxy the bad tempered dog 05:40, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

User:Cjrhoads/Draft Integrative Medicine

@Valjean: I'd like your help on improving this page

@Roxy the dog: I'd like your help on improving this page

@Anachronist: I'd like your help on improving this page

Removal of navbox pages

@AndyTheGrump @Gråbergs Gråa Sång I would like to propose the removal of Oral polio vaccine AIDS hypothesis, Vaccines and autism, MMR vaccine and autism, and GMO conspiracy theories from the alternative medicine navboxes for the same reason as was given aspartame in this discussion. Altanner1991 (talk) 16:50, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I actually removed GMO before I saw this [1], and my stated reason applies for those others too (unless I missed something with ctrl-f), see also #2 in the numbered list at WP:SIDEBAR. To me however, removing the vaccine ones seems wrong anyway. We'll see if there's more opinions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:01, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't understand: you say "I actually removed GMO ... and my stated reason applies for those others too" but then you also say "To me however, removing the vaccine ones seems wrong anyway.". This seems like the opposite in each sentence. Which position do you apply? Altanner1991 (talk) 18:46, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I think it's reasonable that the vaccine articles stay in the sidebar anyway since the connection to Vaccine hesitancy is strong. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, a very good approach, thank you so much. Altanner1991 (talk) 20:02, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I WP:APPNOTEd Template talk:Alternative medicine sidebar (it's what we're discussing, right?), we may just as well have the discussion here, probably more people watching. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:06, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Natural course of disease ≠ regression to the mean

In the first sentence of paragraph 3, the phrase “Natural course of disease” is linked to the article for “regression to the mean”. I don’t think these topics are at all related as an individual’s health is not a sampling of a random variable, and additionally it is confusing to link to an article with a title much different than the hyperlink text. I would suggest changing this link to point somewhere else, such as Natural history of disease or Acute (medicine). Also don’t think I’ve ever left a talk post so hopefully this is an acceptable way to use this tool! ♭e ♫ (talk) 06:29, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

An absolutely proper use of the talk page, and an interesting question, thank you.

This is an off the cuff response, so may be a little rough around the edges, but I'm pretty sure anything I get wrong will be corrected by somebody. The thing is that health outcomes are mostly assessed by the outcomes of a population, rather than individual results. Take the example of "a nasty bruise" and how the course of the same injury may vary in different people. At first it'll hurt, then discolour a bit, turn red, purple, blue and even black in various degrees, and gradually change back through those colours over a period of time. All those effects will vary depending on the individual, and the degree of seriousness of the injury, but sooner or later, things get back to normal. That is the point - the return to normalcy, (the mean), eventually happens without intervention.

Proponents of Alt-Med often point to their intervention as effective demonstration of their woo of choice when all that has happened is a natural recovery, and in discussion this is often countered by the mention of "regression to mean" and what that entails.

Of course, I wrote all the above before looking at the article, and perhaps the link to the article is a little too much, as the article deals with the major statistical meaning. Lets see if anybody else wants to comment, yes? - Roxy the English speaking dog 07:05, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

"Anecdotes are useless precisely because they may point to idiosyncratic responses." - Scott H. Sicherer, Pediatric Allergy & Immunology, 1999 Nov;10(4) 226-234

Valjean (talk) (PING me) 07:45, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Honestly, this probably doesn't need any wikilink at all. The general idea that many diseases resolve naturally, without intervention, isn't terribly complex or implausible. (The wording of the article text might be tweaked for clarity, I suppose—the parenthetical bit seems to exist principally to provide a place to put the wikilink.)

Regression to the mean is an inappropriate target, certainly; as noted, that article is about sampling outliers, not variables whose values genuinely change over time. (If I had COVID and a fever of 40°C degrees last week, and my temperature drops back to 37°C today, my temperature measurement last week wasn't an outlier due to an imprecise thermometer or sloppy measurement. My fever going away was not a regression towards the mean; I just got better.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:44, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Honey for Coughing - Clinical Evidence? Folk Remedy? Alternative Medicine? All of the above?

There is clinical evidence that honey is an effective treatment for coughing, indeed perhaps more effective than some OTC drugs. See e.g. this article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4264806/ (which itself cites numerous other articles). Honey is also a folk remedy for coughing, has been for a long time. The article on folk remedies is part of the 'alternative medicine' series, the alternative medicine article describes these as 'lacking biological plausibility, testability, repeatability, or evidence from clinical trials'. It is misleading to say all folk remedies fall into these categories. Clearly, the reason you cannot buy honey as a medicine, is because there would be no money in it! I think the way things are presented is an oversimplication, and misleading. 83.252.72.30 (talk) 21:48, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

This is already covered in the Honey article here. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 22:01, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Updating and Improving Alternative Medicine Article so it is not rated as C-Class

Th article Alternative Medicine is rated C Class by Wikipedia. The article needs updating to reflect current literature or reliably sourced perspectives and should become more neutral. The article and the Series needs to distinguish between health practice, medical practice, and medical science. In many cases, the article does not describe the topics as the contemporary practitioners themselves but rather jumps directly to derogatory or pejorative descriptions.

Note that Wikipedia:Quotations policy allows useful short quotations subject to Fair Use criterion when it improves an article.

One example is the article on the National Institute of Health National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH) which is called an agency which it is not. The article does not correctly describe the historical progression from starting as an Office and becoming a Center and then being renamed by Congress. The article and Alternative medicine do not reflect the current mission or definitions adopted by the NCCIH. For example under NCCIH Classification, it poorly and non-neutrally presents a 1999 formulation. In 1999 the name was National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) Congress changed the name to NCCIH and Mission in 2014.

Since editing the Alternative Medicine Series is so contentious, a better mechanism is needed for achieving consensus on changes that would get the article to at least a B-Class rating Wikipedia:Content assessment/B-Class criteria

Bbachrac (talk) 23:47, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Major revisions are going to be resisted, so best to take it one edit at a time. Suggest a particular change you'd like to make, explain it, back it up, and build a consensus here on the Talk Page. You are also welcome to be WP:BOLD and make an edit. Just be prepared to come back here and start a discussion if it's reverted. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 00:00, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

@Pyrrho the Skipper Thanks for your comment. The problem as I see it is even if consensus is achieved on this Talk Page, the Alternative Medicine Series Guardians will undo any attempt at revision. Then what? Bbachrac (talk) 17:14, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

If the changes get reverted, you didn't actually have a consensus. MrOllie (talk) 17:31, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

@MrOllie Yes, then the attempts at editing becomes a non-convergent series of attempted editing. There is actually no mechanism or process for closure on consensus.Bbachrac (talk) 17:36, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Sure there is, WP:DR, particularly WP:RFC. I don't recommend you start one here, though. Consensus is pretty firmly against creating a WP:FALSEBALANCE in a false attempt at neutrality on altmed topics. MrOllie (talk) 17:45, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

@Bbachrac I've had to go through RfC to make what I thought were obvious edits in altmed articles. Sometimes the consensus was for the change, sometimes it wasn't. But if you are truly making a good-faith attempt to improve the article, then I would absolutely encourage you to try. If I support your edit, I would even help create the RfC, if needed. That's the whole point of a community-driven encyclopedia. But right now I don't know what specific changes you'd like to see. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:04, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

A reminder to avoid RfCs: WP:RFCBEFORE. They are a last resort. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:17, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

@All Thank you for the comments to date. I would like to see the Alternative Medicine series developed to Class B or A, but I think this is undertaking like the The Myth of Sisyphus and I am not sure that is a hill I want to climb. I like the format used by WikiUniversity: as exemplified in the topic "Does objective reality exist?" in developing its topics. Bbachrac (talk) 20:39, 22 October 2022 (UTC)