Talk:Chola dynasty
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 | On 6 October 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Chola Empire. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Possible addition to the page?
I think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Takkolam should be mentioned briefly in the page or linked at its bottom.
SlimShady32123 (talk) 16:15, 25 April 2022 (UTC)SlimShady32123
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New map replaced the old map showing the greatest extent of Chola empire. It was corrected based on primary literature cited to show actual control Chola had on Sri Lanka.
The Chola empire never had full control of the island at any point in history, and this is already discussed in a large amount of literature published on the matter, including primary literature cited on the page. Spencer, G. W. The Politics of Plunder: The Cholas in Eleventh-Century Ceylon. The Journal of Asian Studies 1976, 35 (3), 405–419. https://doi.org/10.2307/2053272.
According to Spencer, “Under Rajendra Chola I, perhaps the most aggressive king of his line, Chola raids were launched southward from Rajarattha into Rohana. By his fifth year, Rajendra claimed to have completely conquered Ceylon, a claim that has led some historians to assert that Rajendra "completed" the conquest Rajaraja had begun. But the Cholas never really consolidated their control over southern Ceylon, which in any case lacked large and prosperous settlements to tempt long-term Chola occupation. Thus, under Rajendra, Chola predatory expansion in Ceylon began to reach a point of diminishing returns”
Moreover, Spencer talks about the continuous line of Sinhalese kings during the Chola period in the Rohana kingdom. “Ironically, the Chola settlements in the north in turn became targets of attack and plunder, partly because the Sinhalese "enemy"-remnants of the royal court and some chiefs who supported it were now more dispersed and capable of organizing guerrilla resistance. Since members of the royal house of Ceylon were natural rallying-points for counterattacks, the Cholas were anxious to seize them. The Culavamsa admits that Rajendra's forces captured King Mahinda and transported him to India, where he eventually died in exile.47 But Prince Kassapa, son of Mahinda, hid in Rohana, where Chola forces vainly searched for him. Kassapa assumed the title of Vikkamabahu I and ruled" in Rohana for several years (c. I029-Io4I)48 while attempting to organize a campaign of liberation and unification””
Thus it is clear that Cholar only had an influence on the Rohana kingdom of the south of Sri Lanka, not direct control. Lipwe (talk) 03:37, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
New details:
Chola only had complete control of the Anuradhapura Kingdom, while the Principality of Ruhuna (Ruhunu Rata) was still under Sinhalese kings. States of the Principality of Malaya is not clear. The following map shows the area under each administrative unit. The corrected map only included the Principality of Ruhuna (Ruhunu Rata) as the area of influence, while the entire Principality of Malaya was put under Chola control, even though this might not be the case.
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- both maps are incorrect and have therefore been replaced with a more accurate one for several reasons
- 1. After the capture of Mahinda V in 1017, the Sinhalese monarchs in Rohana submitted to the Cholas as subordinate or puppet rulers. Kassapa VI (Vikkamabahu) organized several liberation campaigns however his rule was still under chola influence and he has only fractional control over the reign. This is why the region is under influence since the sinhalese monarchs only had partial control and their rule was under chola subordinate/influence.
- 2. Sinhalese control was only present in Mahanagakula (modern day Ambalantota) and the surrounding region. This was why Vijayabahu used the city as a base to send troops to Magama, Mahiyanga and Polonnaruwa ( areas he did not control). This is why the Mahanagakula in the map is labeled as influence while the rest of the island is labeled as direct control.
- 3 besides lanka, these are many other parts of the map that are incorrect. the map shows chola influence of the entirety of angkor Dvaravati and pegan when they only had indirect control of the city of pegu and possibly southern Dvaravati. It also shows half of borneo under chola control when most of the island (except parts of the coasts under srivijaya) were undiscovered at the time.)
- https://web.archive.org/web/20110722030542/http://www.ices.lk/publications/inscript2_kno_review.shtml
- https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-asian-studies/article/abs/politics-of-plunder-the-cholas-in-eleventhcentury-ceylon/926938631DA4BF69B0DED43421E08658
- https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/465385
- https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03085696208592208 2600:8806:403:5100:D86C:A815:34A8:8C8E (talk) 22:20, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Requested move 6 October 2022
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 22:10, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Chola dynasty → Chola Empire – Enter the correct name please J.k.r0012 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 13:40, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
- This is a contested technical request (permalink). Steel1943 (talk) 19:26, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing anything in the target article that validates this claim. Steel1943 (talk) 17:09, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
- Bro check this link:
- Chola Empire - INSIGHTSIAS (insightsonindia.com)
- This is an official link. 2406:7400:63:66FA:FC02:3036:74DA:1736 (talk) 13:36, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- @J.k.r0012: Pinging requester to let them know the discussion moved here. Steel1943 (talk) 19:26, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing anything in the target article that validates this claim. Steel1943 (talk) 17:09, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose In fact there would be room for both articles, but the "Imperial Cholas" represent only part of the history. This old discussion is relevant. Johnbod (talk) 19:40, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose "Chola Dynasty" is the more common name. >>> Extorc.talk 20:19, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose The initiater haven't given any reason for the move and I don't see any. Akshaypatill (talk) 19:54, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
- I just wanted to add about the descendants of Cholas as you could find it with evidence in google and other sites Descendant of Pandya (talk) 07:31, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Religion...
User:Tamilpadai You are in disagreement with multiple editors. Discuss your concerns here first instead of reverting again and again. Akshaypatill (talk) 06:13, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- He has already violated the WP:3RR by carrying out 4 reverts. >>> Extorc.talk 06:46, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Tamilpadai @Akshaypatill I'll introduce some sources here that clearly point out that Shaivism is a sect/faction/tradition of Hinduism.
- Peter Bisschop 2011 -
While it has always been recognized that Shaivism, together with Vaishnavism, constitutes one of the major traditions of Hinduism, it has become increasingly clear that Shaivism, in fact, played a key role in the development of Brahmanical Hinduism.....During the early medieval period, Shaivism became the dominant religious tradition of many Hindu regional kingdoms...
- Constance A. Jones, James D. Ryan 2006 -
-Shaivism is the formal name for the group of traditions that worship Shiva as the supreme divinity..... This loose sect, which encompasses by far the large majority of Hindus, probably began ....
which encompasses by far the large majority of Hindus
clearly means that Shaivites are a subset of Hindus.
- Peter Bisschop 2011 -
- >>> Extorc.talk 07:11, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- Not needed really. We already have a Wiki page for that- Shaivism. "Shaivism (/ˈʃaɪvɪzəm/; Sanskrit: शैवसम्प्रदायः, Śaivasampradāyaḥ) is one of the major Hindu traditions that worships Shiva, which also includes Vaishnavism, Shaktism, and Smartism as the Supreme Being." Akshaypatill (talk) 07:14, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- I know really. Just setting the ground with the most basic undisagreeable information. >>> Extorc.talk 07:17, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- Not needed really. We already have a Wiki page for that- Shaivism. "Shaivism (/ˈʃaɪvɪzəm/; Sanskrit: शैवसम्प्रदायः, Śaivasampradāyaḥ) is one of the major Hindu traditions that worships Shiva, which also includes Vaishnavism, Shaktism, and Smartism as the Supreme Being." Akshaypatill (talk) 07:14, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Tamilpadai @Akshaypatill I'll introduce some sources here that clearly point out that Shaivism is a sect/faction/tradition of Hinduism.
::Here's my response that During Chola dynasty period Shivaism was the religion and not Hinduism.
Sources
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Tamilpadai (talk) 10:41, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Tamilpadai The argument that you are presenting is analogous to saying that Sunni Islam is not a part of Islam and should be called the Sunni religion.
None of the sources presented by you talk about Hinduism and Shaivism together in the same context.
Even if some sources call Shaivism a religion, that doesn't mean that it isn't a part of Hinduism.
>>> Extorc.talk 11:03, 9 October 2022 (UTC)- It doesn't matter. And Hinduism as a term did not exist until Persians and The British came to the Indian Sub Continent. What we need to look at is What was the religion of Cholas? For that i have provided enough evidence that Shaivisim was a separate religion during their time and it was their state religion.
- Hinduism was never a term back them.
- You are confusing with Modern day Hinduism with the then separate religion Shaivism and Vaishnavism. Tamilpadai (talk) 11:10, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Moden day Indians and Hindutuva followers
- Kindly keep the discussion within the scope of Chola's avoiding WP:POV. >>> Extorc.talk 11:12, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Tamilpadai The argument that you are presenting is analogous to saying that Sunni Islam is not a part of Islam and should be called the Sunni religion.
::Shaivism in the modern days might be under one Hinduism but Shaivisim during Chola Rule was a separate religion. That's all we need to consider.
- The question is what was the Cholas religion?
- The answer is Shaivism.
- Why not Hinduism?
Because Hinduism as a collective form (under one umbrella) did not exist in Chola Land during their rule. Here we are talking about the Cholas official religion and not Nepal's or India's. Tamilpadai (talk) 11:02, 9 October 2022 (UTC)sock- Im sorry but any effort made by you cannot deny the fact that Shaivism by definition is a sect/faction/tradition of..... of? HINDUISM.
- Just because most practitioners of Buddhism in Sri Lanka are Theravada Buddhists, we cant let you invent a new religion called Theravada religion. >>> Extorc.talk 11:10, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- Well, Shivaism a sect of Hinduism is only during the modern Times. During Chola rule or even after their rule in 1279 and up until Nayakkar rules it was two separate religions.
- "The Telugu Nayakars in particular were patrons of Vaishnava religion"
- This indicates Vaishnava was a separate religion in itself ever after the Chola rule which ended in 1279.
- https://www.google.com/books/edition/Caste_Class_and_Power/5Sk1jX1p0ZAC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=chola+religion&pg=PA13&printsec=frontcover
- We are only looking at what is the religion of The cholas? And if it Shivaism, then was Shivaism a separate religion or a sect? It was a separate religion as indicated by many references. Tamilpadai (talk) 11:17, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- Just because cholas were following it, doesnt mean it becomes a religion. I repeat, Even though you aren't showing any intent on acknowledging what I'm saying., that Shaivism by definition is a sect/faction/tradition of Hinduism. It is not a religion. >>> Extorc.talk 11:19, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- None of the sources that you have provided vouch for your argument that Shaivism and Hinduism were different in the past but I have provided you sources which say that Shaivism and Hinduism are intertwined. Unless you can provide multiple sources which can establish that, we cannot reach anywhere except towards my argument. >>> Extorc.talk 11:31, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Nope. Your argument is not constructive. The Cholas were following it as a religion as indicated by the refs."They actively patronized Saivism and the arts inspired by this religion."https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Journal_of_the_Music_Academy_Madras/dwgFAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=chola+religion&dq=chola+religion&printsec=frontcover"The cholas were however consistently staunch Saivites. But while following Saivism as their parental religion and building and providing for Siva shrines they were not hostile to other religion."https://www.google.com/books/edition/History_of_Tamilnad/bU1uAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=chola+religion&dq=chola+religion&printsec=frontcover"But the classical age of Tamil culture belongs to the period of Cholas, who ruled from AD 850 to 1279. Shaivism received official patronage."https://www.google.com/books/edition/Mother_India/1s7WAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Saiva%20religion"The court religion being Saivism, it was, of course in evidence everywhere."I repeat, Shivaism was a separate religion back then. There was no Hinduism (a religion where Shivaism and Vaishnavism considered as one.)Well, all the sources i have provided calls Shivaism as a separate religion. That's we need and the Hinduism you call today did even exist. It was separate religion. As i told you, in modern times Shivaism is considered a sect but back then it was a separate religion.This article is about The Chola Dynasty and not the Republic of India. The modern day Hinduism did not exist back then. Period. Tamilpadai (talk) 11:35, 9 October 2022 (UTC)Typo: *the Hinduism you call today didn't even exist. Tamilpadai (talk) 11:36, 9 October 2022 (UTC)sock- Tamilpadai All you need to read is Shaivism. What you are doing is trying to change the definition of that page. And in this case we would need sources that shows that Shaivism and Hinduism are seperate faiths and doesn't share the relation that the current Shaivism page iterates. Akshaypatill (talk) 11:42, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- That's irrelevant here. We are talking about the Chola dynasty and their religion. What all were the religions that existed during their time and what was the one they followed. Period.
- It was not the current republic of India back then. It was a separate country under the Chola rule emperors. You are talking from Modern day perspective of Hinduism but I ask you see from Chola era perspective. It's not that complicated. Tamilpadai (talk) 11:47, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- How can the definition of Shaivism itself be irrelevant. It is completely if not more relevant than anything else here. >>> Extorc.talk 11:55, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- Everything about Shaivism is modern day Hinduism perspective. But during chola era it was not the case. Both Shivaism and Vaishnavism was a separate religion and there was no Hinduism. Tamilpadai (talk) 11:51, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- Kindly provide sources to support
Both Shivaism and Vaishnavism was a separate religion and there was no Hinduism.
>>> Extorc.talk 11:53, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- Kindly provide sources to support
- Tamilpadai All you need to read is Shaivism. What you are doing is trying to change the definition of that page. And in this case we would need sources that shows that Shaivism and Hinduism are seperate faiths and doesn't share the relation that the current Shaivism page iterates. Akshaypatill (talk) 11:42, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- When did I add Modern Day Hinduism as a religion to the page. We are talking about Hinduism, of which Shaivism is a sect. Any other definition of Shaivism doesn't comply with RS. >>> Extorc.talk 11:52, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- Contrary to User:Tamilpilai's claim , here is what our article on Hinduism says- "Hinduism has been called the oldest religion in the world." Why is this so, if it didn't exist back then? Akshaypatill (talk) 12:01, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::Please understand the Hinduism as a word or as even a religion(a combined form) did not exits for at lease 1000 years back. The Persians called it sindhs and britishers called Hindus. Over time the Shivaism religion and Vaishnavaism religion all has become come under one religion which is what we call as Hinduism. Shivaism and Vaishnavism are older religions by itself. In fact Shivaism is pre-vedic religion. Since in the modern day Hinduism now includes Shivaism and Vaishnisvis togather then Hinduism can be called one of the oldest religion in the world because Shaivism (an old religion) is now considered under Hinduism. Tamilpadai (talk) 12:18, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- Modern scholars call Shaivism a major Hindu traditions and not a seperate religion and that's how we should call it here too. You can write all this in the body, but that too will be irrelevent as this isn't a page about Shaivism or Hinduism. Here is list of religions in India - [[1]] and it does not list Shaivism as a seperate religion. So your arguments are not valid. Akshaypatill (talk) 12:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
No, modern scholars call it so in the Modern perspective and not what it was during the Chola era. We should call how it was during Chola era as this is a page about the Cholas. As i said Shivaism is not a separate religion now but it was back then it was separate.So for example, let's assume Burma, Sri Lanka, Pakistan and Bangladesh all become part of India in future and over time all their respective religions and long with India's were unified and called under a new name. So when you write an article about the past Sri Lanka or past Pakistan do your say their religion in the new religious name (a new umbrella term for Buddhism, Islam and Hinduism) or do you state the Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka was once a buddhist country? Tamilpadai (talk) 12:50, 9 October 2022 (UTC)My arguments are valid. Your logic is not valid when you compare and talk only in the perspective of current form of Hinduism and not Chola Era Shaivam and Vaishnavism. This page is about them and what it was back then. Simple. Tamilpadai (talk) 12:55, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
My arguments are valid. Your logic is not valid when you compare and talk only in the perspective of current form of Hinduism and not Chola Era Shaivam and Vaishnavism. This page is about them and what it was back then. Simple. Tamilpadai (talk) 12:55, 9 October 2022 (UTC)- Carefully read- Indian religions. I would like to see sources that tells that Shaivism was seperate religion back then and wasn't part of Hinduism. Check [[2]]
Akshaypatill (talk) 13:09, 9 October 2022 (UTC)The Epic and Early Puranic period, from c. 200 BCE to 500 CE, saw the classical "Golden Age" of Hinduism (c. 320-650 CE), which coincides with the Gupta Empire. In this period the six branches of Hindu philosophy evolved, namely Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Mīmāṃsā, and Vedanta. Monotheistic sects like Shaivism and Vaishnavism developed during this same period through the Bhakti movement.
- This clearly shows that Hinduism predates Shaivism, which was mere monotheistic sect of Hinduism like the others. Unless you point to the sources proving otherwise, 'Hinduism" remains as the religion of Cholas in the article. Akshaypatill (talk) 13:29, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- Carefully read- Indian religions. I would like to see sources that tells that Shaivism was seperate religion back then and wasn't part of Hinduism. Check [[2]]
- Modern scholars call Shaivism a major Hindu traditions and not a seperate religion and that's how we should call it here too. You can write all this in the body, but that too will be irrelevent as this isn't a page about Shaivism or Hinduism. Here is list of religions in India - [[1]] and it does not list Shaivism as a seperate religion. So your arguments are not valid. Akshaypatill (talk) 12:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
.edit request on 9 October 2022
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The cholas belonged to Saivism as a religion. Hinduism did not exist when the latter Cholas ruled which is about 1000 years ago. The word Hindu was brought into by the British about 300 years ago. Hence please correct the religion to Saivism. 49.204.143.168 (talk) 11:28, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. >>> Extorc.talk 11:32, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
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Rule area
Small suggestion, Cholas never ruled north India. So where ever the reference of north India is made it should be changed to Eastern Ghats OR South East India. Gmishra75 (talk) 17:57, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
- Where does it say they did rule north India? Johnbod (talk) 04:40, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
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