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December 14

British losses on the Western Front of WWII

And what are the losses of Great Britain exactly on the Western European front of the Second World War. The article about the Western Front says 41 thousand dead, but there is a discrepancy. Total losses in the WWII in England 383 thousand dead: 41 thousand died in Europe, 35 thousand in Africa, 12 thousand in the Pacific War, 10 thousand in Italy, 50 thousand in Antarctica 37.145.63.226 (talk) 16:22, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The "50 thousand in Antarctica" figure makes me think the source may not be entirely reliable. DOR (HK) (talk) 19:08, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

typo, I meant Atlantic.But I'm more interested in the loss of the British on the Western Front because the sources differ greatly. 37.145.63.226 (talk) 19:11, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, can you please clarify what the discrepancy is by providing some links to where you are reading these figures? --Jayron 32 19:36, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Western Front (World War II)

North African campaign

Pacific War

Battle of the Atlantic 37.145.63.226 (talk) 20:03, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Italian campaign (World War II) 37.145.63.226 (talk) 20:04, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The 41,000 figure is the number of killed in the 21st Army Group in NW Europe between D-Day and VE-Day, which also includes Canadian and Polish deaths. See Table 10. So this does not include losses in NW Europe during 1939-1940, which were just over 11,000 killed. I haven't been able to find an overall breakdown by theatre. Alansplodge (talk) 11:51, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

December 15

Questions about two French zoologists

I am writing about the history of the discovery of the honey possum. first scientifically described by Paul Gervais and Jules Verreaux. Appears in many wikipedias, Verreaux went on a collecting expedition to Australia in 1842 and stayed there for several years. Now, on the one hand, the honey possum was scientifically described on January 11, 1842. On the other hand, it appears that its holotype were collected by Verreaux in Australia. If so, it must be that Verreaux visited Australia before 1842, or the holotype of the honey possum were brought from Australia by someone else to his family's collection company ("Maison Verreaux"). The first question is: Verreaux visited Australia before 1842? If not, then why is he listed as the person who brought the holotype of honey possum?

The second question: appears in the scientific descriptions of John Edward Gray, to whom Gervais showed the scientific description of the possum, and Gervais also presented them at the meeting of the Zoological Society in London (on January 11, 1842). My question, is it known what was the purpose of his trip to London, and how long did he stay there? מנחם.אל (talk) 12:52, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

According to Australian National Herbarium Biographical Notes, Verreaux arrived in Australia in December 1842. Alansplodge (talk) 13:07, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Paris Museum specimens, as Tarsipes rostratus, were described by M. Paul Gervais who, in his own name and that of M. Jules Verreaux, read a lengthy description and presented illustrations at the Scientific Meeting of the Zoological Society of London on January 11, 1842. [1]

It's not clear from this how the "specimens" (presumably dead ones) arrived in Paris. Alansplodge (talk) 13:14, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

indeed. I have read this document and other documents (Gray's description, Gervais' description), And it is still not clear to me whether Verreaux collected the specimens. Here however, It says that the 3 specimens (Male, female and young) were collected (״Recorded״) by Verreaux. מנחם.אל (talk) 13:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On the specimens of the honey possums, there is a note with a description of specimens that I can't read most of it... maybe there is a solution there....מנחם.אל (talk) 13:54, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the original The Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London. It still doesn't say who collected the specimens, but it does sound that they were studying them in Paris before the 1842 trip. It also has a long description, is this what you wanted? Short quote: “M.P. Gervais exhibited a drawing representing the details of a new genus of Marsupial animals, and communicated to the Meeting, in his own name and that of M. Jules Verreaux, the description of this new Mammal, which formed part of a collection brought from Swan River” and “…In Paris there are several specimens of this singular animal…”70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:28, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Provenance : Australie, Swan River, acquis en février 1838.[2] from National Museum of Natural History, France catalog. le Tarsipes rostratus vient du pays que traverse la rivière des Cygnes (Swan river) ; et quoique l'individu que nous avons eu à notre disposition eût été préparé pour être monté, et qu'il fût privé, par conséquent, de ses viscères et d'une grande partie de son squelette, ceux de ses caractères que nous avons observés nous ont paru justifier les réflexions qui précèdent Gervais, Paul; Verreaux, Jules (1842). "TARSIPES ROSTRATUS". Magasin de zoologie, d'anatomie comparée et de palaeontologie.fiveby(zero) 18:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mahoney is mentioned in the text but not cited, you might try WP:RX for Mahoney, J. A. (1981). "The specific name of the honey possum". Australian Mammalogy. 4 (2): 135–8. doi:10.1071/AM81006. fiveby(zero) 19:12, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I was able to get access to Mahoney's text a few days ago. Although he does not indicate there the source of the specimens. This line: Provenance : acquis en février 1838. definitely promotes me. In addition, I found the following passage yesterday: En février 1838 un Monsieur Jules VERREAUX, taxidermie et Aide-Naturaliste du Muséum d’Histoire Naturelle à Paris, cherchais des spécimens à rapatrier et éventuellement à vendre en France et il retourner avec un Possum à Miel empaillé from here. I sent an email to the researcher, trying to better understand what happened. Verreaux seems to have acquired the specimens in France from some collection coming from Australia for the French Museum. מנחם.אל (talk) 08:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The web page of the Narional History Museum states that the collection event was recorded by Verreaux. I suppose this need not mean that Verreaux personally collected the specimen; merely that he is given as the source of information regarding the location. --Lambiam 08:09, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Persée, Gallica, and Trove out to yield something more, but i am too tired to search in French or Australian. fiveby(zero) 08:23, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

fr:wp tells us that Verraux returned to Cape Town in 1825 and remained there thirteen years, thus till 1838. During this time he was assiduously collecting specimens. The first landfall travelling east from South Africa is the Swan River area of Western Australia (and vice versa). There is a lot of travel between them (indeed Cottesloe, on the Indian Ocean between Fremantle and Perth is identically named to a suburb of Johannesburg). We may assume that this interchange led to Verraux learning of and securing possession of the newly discovered fauna before embarking for Paris. 92.5.53.185 (talk) 11:33, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The advantageous position of the Swan River relatively to Mauritius has certainly been discussed; see that report (pamphlet) from 1835. --Askedonty (talk) 14:22, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If I'm it reading well in the 1874 Bulletin de la Société d'acclimatation, 3°série Tome1 the related "Nouvelle Hollande" collections came to the Museum brought by Mr Gould (p42). --Askedonty (talk) 11:55, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

According to JOHN GOULD - Papers, 1835-76 (p. 2 of 7), John Gould (1804-1881) arrived in Hobart, Tasmania from England in September 1838. Travelling with Gould was his assistant John Gilbert, who was sent independantly to the Swan River Colony in February 1839, where he collected numerous specimens of previously unknown birds and a few mammals that were later sent on to Gould who was in Sydney. [3] However, a date of February 1838 is at least a year too early for either Gould or Gilbert. Alansplodge (talk) 13:38, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's certainly not of direct concern to all of those who are more interested in the 2022 United Nations Biodiversity Conference, but there is in fact less names to be checked from the arrival lists to Perth until 1838 [4] than there are for the 5,500 species of living synapsids, also known as the mammals (Synapsids#Evolutionary history) ---Askedonty (talk) 20:22, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Verreux could have travelled from South Africa to Western Australia and back, but it's a journey of several months and would have been documented - reports of his 1842 trip would have mentioned he had been there before. 146.199.206.38 (talk) 11:16, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A plausible explanation is that the February 1838 date is a typo or transcription error for February 1839, which would then fit with Gilbert's expedition to Western Australia. However, I haven't been able to find anything which confirms that, or that the possum was amongst the small mammal specimens sent by Glibert to Gould, but it doesn't seem unlikley. Alansplodge (talk) 12:31, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's a typo. Gould wrote in his book "The Mammals of Australia (1845)" that after he heard about the honey possum scientifically described by Verreaux and Gervais , he wrote a letter to Gilbert and asked him to find samples of the honey possum and send them to him (which actually happened) מנחם.אל (talk) 18:07, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) @Alansplodge: The problem you have is that the MNHN says the material was acquired in February 1838 from Verreux, who we know travelled from South Africa with specimens that year. It is unlikely that Gilbert or Gould would have passed material they had obtained at much time and expense to a French museum. Also, a twelve month delay is insufficient to make any difference. Gilbert didn't actually reach WA until March 1839 - he left Tasmania on 4 February and reached Fremantle on 6 March. The first British specimens left Australia for England with Gould on 9 April 1840 and arrived in May. Gilbert only reached Sydney on 30 April - he worked in the Northern Territory for a while and didn't reach England till after the death of Gould's wife on 15 August 1841. The fact that a French museum had examples of the new fauna from WA and a British one didn't may have been the reason why Gould and Gibson travelled to Australia in the first place, with Gibson detailed to search in WA while Gould remained in the east. 146.199.206.38 (talk) 18:28, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Not exactly so) They all had contracts, for example Gilbert from Gould, that they would be interested on the benefits obtained from sales made from material not required for the precise program of work, that's, precisely targeted studies, and publishing. --Askedonty (talk) 19:39, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Something interesting is written here: when Verreux joined the French museum as a "traveling naturalist" he ״donated his collection of mammals and birds to the museum״. Alansplodge, Is it known the exact date on which Verreux received the position of "traveling naturalist" at the French Museum? If it's in 1841, that could explain a lot (Verreux acquired the specimens as early as 1838, but the scientific description wasn't published until early 1842! And even then, not by a single zoologist, but together with Verreux. It could be that the specimens were with him between 1838 and 1841 and then donated by him to the museum after he joined). מנחם.אל (talk) 13:37, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Did you see in Gervais & Verreaux 1842 p. 5 On a reçu à Paris , depuis plusieurs années , différents exemplaires de cette curieuse espèce de Mammifère. Would depuis plusieurs années imply earlier than 1838? Serventy, D. L. (1979). "History of zoology in Western Australia". Journal of the Royal Society of Western Australia. has Both at the Swan River, and earlier at Port Jackson, the first arrivals among the settlers and Government officials exhibited a remarkable zest for natural history inquiry. It looks like there is more on botany and ornithology available, but Alexander, W. B. (1917). "History of zoology in Wester Australia. Part III. 1829-1840". Journal of the Royal Society of Western Australia. 3: 1–33. looks promising. fiveby(zero) 16:04, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fun reading, but no help really beyond Many of the early settlers collected specimens and transmitted them to England and other countries of Europe and a few mentions of "opossums". fiveby(zero) 16:29, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

December 17

William the Elder?

Who is the William that William the Younger, Duke of Brunswick, is "the Younger" of? Clarityfiend (talk) 09:13, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This biography claims that he was "younger" to his cousin Wilhelm of the Brunswick line, brother of Henry V, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg, and son of Henry IV, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg (another, though more straightforward Elder/Younger pair). A second reference is here. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:52, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:13, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Leonhard von Moellendorff (1918-1945)

Please, can you search in exist a photo and maybe upload it on commons? Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.217.218 (talk) 15:11, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If one exists, Google can't find it I'm afraid. Alansplodge (talk) 16:51, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note that there is no guarantee any photo can be uploaded to Commons. Most likely, Commons:Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Germany will have to be considered and if the photo was published with an identified author, it might not have entered into the public domain yet. (Commons:Commons:Copyright rules by territory/United States could also be a factor but for that age I think it's not that likely except for press photos and similar.) Nil Einne (talk) 17:00, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Battle strategy of delay

I remember learning in university about a historical battle, I think in the ancient world, in which a city intentionally allowed itself to be captured and occupied and then, when the enemy had gotten settled and lax, the city‘s original inhabitants rose up and killed all their occupiers, thereby winning the battle. What I recall is that the legacy of the battle was that the city eventually lent its name to a phrase meaning the strategy of delaying something in order to gain some advantage. Does any of that sound familiar to anyone? If so, I’d be glad to know which battle or city it was or what the strategy is called. 2607:FEA8:F18D:F000:D826:6641:D472:5B86 (talk) 21:24, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fabian strategy? I'm not seeing anything in there which matches your story about an occupied city, but it's a strategy of delay from the ancient world. Card Zero (talk) 23:13, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It seems very, very unlikely. All it would take is for one person to switch sides, and the whole thing ends in disaster. Also, in ancient times, conquerors were not known to be gentle in their occupation. Who in their right minds would have subjected themselves to murder, rape and pillaging for such a risky proposition? Clarityfiend (talk) 03:39, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is a plot element in the post-apocalyptical novel The Postman; some women allow themselves to be captured so they can later kill their captors at a predetermined time, but one betrays the others. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:43, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

While not what the OP is looking for the fictional The Mouse That Roared and its film version The Mouse That Roared (film) are a fun variation of the situation. MarnetteD|Talk 18:42, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

December 18

Missing in Action in the US Army

Are the missing in American terminology combat or non-combat losses? Lone Ranger1999 (talk) 18:19, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This use of "in action", also found in "wounded in action" and "killed in action", as well as in "bravery/gallantry in action", refers to fighting in a combat zone. --Lambiam 22:40, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See also Desertion. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:30, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

December 19

British Royal support for America

Please note I'm not requesting any types of predictions. But since the latest arrest in the Pan Am Flight 103 bombing, is it possible Charles III may send his support to the United States of America? (The tragedy happened above United Kingdom soil. Elizabeth II was also alive at the time.)2603:7000:8100:F444:40AF:9ACA:7C8E:728B (talk) 04:05, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What exactly do you mean by "send his support"? ColinFine (talk) 11:03, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There were two royal visits to the crash site at the time. [5] Not sure what you expect 33 years later? Alansplodge (talk) 13:20, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

By "send his support", is it possible The King could stay informed about updates of any trials in the most recent suspect connected to the tragedy? Or he could revisit the crash site?2603:7000:8100:F444:40AF:9ACA:7C8E:728B (talk) 13:28, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am sure he will be kept informed. As for what he might or might not do… you did say you were not looking for predictions. Blueboar (talk) 13:40, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's a well-known fact that the American republic can only survive with the support of British royalty. Victoria was sadly distracted between 1861 and 1865, and look what happened then! DuncanHill (talk) 14:15, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We were denied the Royal Presence until 1939 and even then it was just tagging along with Mackenzie King! fiveby(zero) 16:43, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's right, I wasn't looking for predictions.2603:7000:8100:F444:D3BE:468D:F1EE:60BC (talk) 22:13, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible? Sure, it's possible. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:58, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Undoubtably His Majesty will be personally interested in any further developments in the case, as will a large proportion of the British population. However, as the Monarch, current-day protocol forbids him to comment or act in ways that could be interpreted as an intervention in legal, political or diplomatic procedures (in the UK, or other countries), which is why he has had to give up the environmental campaigning he pursued when 'merely' Prince of Wales.

Expressing sympathy for the victims, perhaps by revisiting the crash site (where, remember, 11 UK citzens were also killed), unveiling a memorial and the like, would be fine: commenting in any way on the ongoing prosecution of an individual suspect would be considered scandalous. This is (one might argue) because in theory he is ultimately in charge of the UK's Law, Government and Diplomacy, so his intervention would be very powerful, but in practice all that is delegated to (or via) Parliament, which in turn is subject to the People (by means of elections).

The Monarch could exercise one significant intervention, after which that power would be removed by Parliament (and possibly the Monarchy abolished), so it would only be used if (in the Monarch's well-advised view) the country were in existential peril. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.245.235 (talk) 17:34, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

400 Auserlesene Chemische Process

The article Hennig Brand mentions this book as inspiring Hennig to heat up urine in a retort. I found the book mentioned in a modern book, The shocking history of phosphorus:

Eventually, in the summer of 1678, Brandt journeyed to Hanover, and there outside the city he set up his apparatus, and with Leibnitz’s help he made some phosphorus. Leibnitz was duly impressed with its quality and properties which were exactly those he had witnessed when Kraft had put on his demonstrations for the Duke. When he asked Brandt how he had discovered phosphorus, Brandt told him that he had first made it in 1669, and said that he got the idea from a book by F. T. Kessler of Strasbourg called 400 Auserlesene Chemische Process (‘400 Selected Chemical Processes’), published in 1630, in which there was a recipe for turning base metals into silver using concentrated urine, alum and saltpetre.

So I assume that's a real book, but is there another reference? Does Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz mention it in writing somewhere? Does it still exist? Is F. T. Kessler otherwise unknown? (There's Franz Kessler, alchemist, active in 1630, but living in the wrong German city, so I guess that's somebody else.) Card Zero (talk) 08:09, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an updated version from 1641: [6]. --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:41, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

F.T. Kessler is de:Thomas Kessler, around 1580 to 1650. --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:50, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The later version of the book title was useful, I found an online 1713 edition and wedged it into the article. Thank you. Card Zero (talk) 09:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article on Brand is rather more tentative about Kessler's influence: "Brand may well have been influenced by Thomas Kessler's 1630 book 500 Auserlesene Chemische Process..." --Lambiam 10:11, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Howards

I'm working on the Coronation of George III and Charlotte, and trying to find whether Edward Howard, 9th Duke of Norfolk, the Earl Marshal and Thomas Howard, 2nd Earl of Effingham, his deputy, were related in any way? It's making my brain hurt. Alansplodge (talk) 18:33, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but I'm not willing to work out exactly how. The Howards of Effingham descend from William Howard, 1st Baron Howard of Effingham, who was the ninth son of Thomas Howard, 2nd Duke of Norfolk. I'm pretty sure that any titled Howard is kin to all the others. DuncanHill (talk) 18:44, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I had some time, so here you go. The paternal ancestry can be traced back via the wiki articles, though at one point on the Effingham side you have to make a leap of logic – would appreciate someone checking if I made that leap correctly. (If any maternal links would be way more complicated and I didn’t try.)

Edward Howard, 9th Duke of Norfolk was third son of

Lord Thomas Howard (no article) who was second son of

Henry Howard, 6th Duke of Norfolk (offended his entire family) who was second son of

Henry Howard, 15th Earl of Arundel (inspired a change in the laws about wills) who was second son of

Thomas Howard, 14th Earl of Arundel (grabbed Greek sculptures now in the British Museum) who was a son of

Philip Howard, 13th Earl of Arundel (canonized by the Pope) who was only child of

Thomas Howard, 4th Duke of Norfolk (first person executed by Elizabeth I) who was a son of

Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey (last person executed by Henry VIII) who was eldest son of

Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk (uncle of Anne Boleyn) who was a son by the first wife of

Thomas Howard, 2nd Duke of Norfolk (made an earl for battling the Scots).

Thomas Howard, 2nd Earl of Effingham who was eldest son of

Francis Howard, 1st Earl of Effingham (army career) who was second son of

Francis Howard, 5th Baron Howard of Effingham (a colonial governor) who was a son of

Sir Charles Howard (no article) who was a son of a “first cousin of both Charles Howard, 2nd Earl of Nottingham and Charles Howard, 3rd Earl of Nottingham”, which I believe would make him a great grandson of

William Howard, 1st Baron Howard of Effingham (a lord Admiral and uncle to Catherine Howard) who was the ninth son of

Thomas Howard, 2nd Duke of Norfolk (made an earl for battling the Scots). 70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:39, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wonderful, many thanks. So a very distant cousin. The 9th Duke was the hereditory Earl Marshal, responsible for organising coronations, but was debarred because he was a Catholic. So he appointed Effingham as his deputy, but he was useless, forgetting all sorts of important items and didn't bother to hold a rehearsal, so nobody knew what to do next. When King George complained, Effingham replied that he would make sure that the next coronation would be organised properly (when of course, the king would be dead). George was highly amused by the answer and made Effingham repeat it several times. Alansplodge (talk) 12:04, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests they were 5th cousins 3 times removed. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:04, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

December 20

Can anyone identify the boy in this photograph?

I'm trying to get the article Charles Edward, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha ready for good article status and it would be nice to include a picture of him as a child though I can't find any that identify him on the commons. I've found this picture of his mother with her family taken in 1896 or 1897. He isn't listed as one of the people in the image but would have been around the same age as the boy in the front who looks quite similar to the earliest picture he's identified in (which is the first one in the body of his article). Does anyone know if the boy could be him? Llewee (talk) 02:24, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I found some person on a forum in 2006 asserting that it is him. (forum page 6) "The boy in front is Alice's brother Charles Edward, Duke of Albany and later Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha." But they don't give a reason for thinking that. On the same forum I found this photo with "Leopolds kids" in the URL but there was no text or explanation alongside it.

This copy of the group portrait has "Oct 1895" written on it, by the way. Card Zero (talk) 07:57, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here a source identifies the boy as "prince of Albany" and the girl as "princess of Albany". According to our articles, prince Charles Edward was duke of Albany while his sister princess Alice was indeed princess of Albany, but this is close enough to count IMO as a positive identification. The source is apparently reliable and knowledgeable enough for the Netherlands Institute for Art History to deem this fit for inclusion on their web page. --Lambiam 08:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This earlier photo suggests that it may well be the same boy. Alansplodge (talk) 12:17, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If the caption of that photo is correct, the boy in that photo is definitely Charles Edward, and thus pictures him as a child clearly younger than on the 1895 family portrait. The facial resemblances of all three sitters with those of the mother and children in the family portrait are striking and IMO sufficiently strong to rule out any remaining doubt. --Lambiam 18:34, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone, I'll update the commons page of the image and its copies based on the conclusions of this discussion and then add it to his article.--Llewee (talk) 21:24, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wishing "Merry Christmas" in a US internet community

What would be the perfect time to wish everybody "Merry Christmas" in a US-dominated internet community, including a little gift (image, video...)? --KnightMove (talk), 04:10, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

KnightMove, if it is a Christian religious internet community, any time in the next five days is fine. If it is a secular community, "Happy Holidays" may be better. There are likely to be significant numbers of Muslim, Jewish, Hindu and atheist participants, who may or may not observe the secular Xmas. I happen to be an American Jew who is bemused rather than bothered by the presumption that I am all excited about another religion's holiday, but some people do get irritated. Cullen328 (talk) 08:11, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you're quick, "Happy Holidays" may be taken to include Hanukkah, which already started but isn't over yet. The wish will also include Kwanzaa. --Lambiam 09:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It might be appropriate to include some images that symbolise Christmas in your country. I was surprised (although thinking about it, I probably shouldn't have been) when some German visitors told me that robins and holly, icons of the British festive season, have no connection with Christmas in their country. Alansplodge (talk) 11:24, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. At least in my part of the US, it is the Northern cardinal that has associations with Christmas. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:31, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cullen328, I was raised Christian in a predominately Christian country, making it hard for me to consider the viewpoint of minority religions, so the following observation should probably come with a 'may be talking out of his backside' health warning. Nevertheless: I've never understood why non-Christians would be bothered or irritated by being wished a merry Christmas. I wouldn't be remotely offended if a Jewish friend wished me a happy Hanukkah, in fact I think I'd feel honoured. Same goes for Diwali, Songkran, or any of the Eids. If anyone wants to offer me greetings and wish me well at what is a special time of year for them, I'll thank them for it. Girth Summit _(blether) 13:45, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was raised agnostic in the same nominally (and now minority) Christian country, and now loosely follow neo-pagan traditions without taking them literally. I agree that simple good wishes, even if couched in specific religious terms, are non-offensive and should be responded to in kind (perhaps with an unobtrusive pagan slant). What I do find offensive is expectations that I will participate in explicitly Christian observances (invisible neo-paganism aside, I might after all be Jewish, as some of my friends and in-laws are). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.245.235 (talk) 16:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My brother often goes to a big shindig to mark Beltane - he has in the past called me late on in the festivities (ie when he's three sheets to the wind) to wish me well. No offence was taken! Girth Summit _(blether) 16:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC) [reply]

For the very traditional… Christmas STARTS on December 25th and continues until January 6th (Epiphany/Three Kings day/twelfth night)… ie “the 12 days of Christmas”.

However, people do tend to look at you funny if you are still wishing them a “Merry Christmas” after New Years Eve. Blueboar (talk) 12:32, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But given that many people will spend their time with the family on 25th and therefore will be online to a lesser extent, a posting with a 'gift' would best be sent on the 24th - am I right with this?

As a context for the answers above: I plan to write a posting with a dedicated Christmas reference (although a somewhat humorous one) in a secular group (which does not see this as a problem, either way). --KnightMove (talk) 12:53, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sending it on Christmas Eve will be fine. (I just find it amusing to send them on January 3rd, and see who get confused) Blueboar (talk) 13:17, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For the VERY traditional, Christmas starts at sundown on the 24th. As to a generic expression, in addition to "Happy Holidays" there's the even more generic "Season's Greetings". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:57, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how it's in your country, but in mine (Netherlands) the 10–15% of the people who consider themselves Protestant object against the term Kerstmis (literally Christ mass), as the Protestants have no mass. They use Kerstfeest (Christ celebration) instead. The somewhat more common Roman-Catholics do use the word Kerstmis (Christ mass), as they do have a mass. The non-religious (the majority), Muslims (5%) and adherents of other religions (5%) don't really care what name one uses and many join in with the secular aspects of the event. So the exact word could matter. The neutral word here is Kerstdagen (Christ days). And of course, some people completely ignore it and just see it as an extra day off from work – except this year, as it's a weekend, so people had a day off anyway. Except the many who have to work on Christmas. PiusImpavidus (talk) 17:08, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Or people lop the tail off and use just kerst: "zo wordt gourmetten deze kerst nog leuker".^[7] --Lambiam 18:57, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In the US we only get a pitiful 11 (10 before 2021) unevenly-spaced and cold or hot weather biased federal holidays per year (Jan 1, 1 day of Jan 15-21, 1 day of Feb 15-21, 1 day of May 25-31, June 19 (new), July 4, 1 day of Sep 1-7, 1 day of Oct 8-14, Nov 11, 1 day of Nov 22-28 and Dec 25) but at least the work break gets transferred to the nearest weekday if it's a weekend. But if a Scrooge demands you work 8 hours every weekday you can get fired for not doing that unless you work for a federally-chartered bank or a government that recognizes these holidays. And Easter, Easter Monday, Good Friday, Maundy Thursday, Ash Wednesday, Mardi Gras, Hanukkah Days 1 through 8, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, Purim, Christmas Eve,

New Year's Eve, Boxing Day, Kwanzaa Days 2 though 6 (a common time off cause it's Dec 26-31), Eid 1, Eid 2, Ramadan Day 1, Hindu holidays like Holi, Buddhist holidays, Super Bowl Sunday, Halloween, St. Patrick's Day (the Columbus Day of Irish-Americans which outnumber the Italian-Americans), Election Day, the Friday after Thanksgiving, the Wednesday before which is the traditional day to fly or drive up to 3,000 miles to eat Thanksgiving together with adult children etc who don't live with Mom anymore,

none of those are federal holidays. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, what many people don't realize is that when they say "happy holidays", what they're actually saying is "happy holy days"; which, although respectful of all religions, would be equally "offensive" to (some) atheists. 136.56.52.157 (talk) 18:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here is Richard Dawkins of all people wishing us Merry Holidays. British atheists go without qualms "on holiday". For the rest, beware of the etymological fallacy. --Lambiam 18:44, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it originally meant "holy days" but it's no longer restricted to religious observances. But that original usage was the source of Henny Youngman's joke: "I was an atheist for a while, but I gave it up. No holidays!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:16, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Curious that Dawkins would use the "holidays" term, as it is really only used in a Christmas context in Coca-Cola adverts here in the UK. Alansplodge (talk) 22:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I thought "holiday" was British for "vacation"? Is it different in the plural? --Trovatore (talk) 23:37, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Holiday" in British use can be either a feast day or a vacation. See for example the kicker "Christmas and New Year holidays" of this page in The Grauniad, while here May Day is referred to as "this holiday". And then there are the bank holidays, the British term for public holidays. In either sense, the term can be singular or plural. --Lambiam 08:34, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lupin the 3rd Part II

WP:DENY

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

At the ending of episode 2, they find school documents about Hitler's childhood, about an education and his behavior. Can you search if it's true in the real-life and who are those professors? Thank you very much. -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.98.76 (talk) 18:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since Lupin the 3rd Part II is a fictional anime series, fact checking in general is not particularly useful. If there are specific details you are curious about, perhaps those can be verified or refuted from sources. 136.56.52.157 (talk) 19:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but can you see those episode's parts and search if are historical?

Nightmare

Is a nightmare really defined (per its article) as an unpleasant dream that wakes you up? I had previously thought that it was a really terrifying dream that put you in a great sense of distress. I've had a few dreams lately that weren't terrifying, just uncomfortable, but that I woke up from as an escape. That doesn't seem so great since waking up means disrupted sleep. I had one last night where I wasn't in real physical danger. I was just potentially in trouble with a bureaucracy. I might as well have stayed in just to find out what would have happened.

I'm not seeking psychiatric advice but just want to know whether that counts as a nightmare. Thanks. 2601:648:8200:990:0:0:0:848F (talk) 20:31, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article uses terms such as "can" and "may", so the difference between nightmare and bad dream is somewhat open to interpretation. Whether or not one wakes up is just an easily discernible distinction. If you are literally losing sleep over this, then I shall dutifully suggest seeking professional help. 136.56.52.157 (talk) 21:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some researchers (e.g. here) make the waking up part of the definition, but I do not believe that this is a universal convention in "psychological nomenclature". Most will just notice that the anxiety attack usually results in awakening, like e.g. here, p. 227. --Lambiam 09:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

December 21