Talk:Legality of child pornography

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Legality of fictional content in the Netherlands

The English source https://www.government.nl/topics/crime-and-crime-prevention/sentencing is outdated or incomplete as can be seen on the official Dutch site: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/seksuele-misdrijven/kinderporno/kinderporno-is-strafbaar, specifically the paragraph under "Virtuele kinderporno," which states: "Aside from child porn consisting of imagery of real children, virtual content is also punishable. This virtual child porn consists of, for example, animations. Virtual child porn is punishable because this type of content suggests sexual abuse of children."

The table should probably be updated to illegal in all cases. Although the law (Article 240b as mentioned in the page) might seen to imply that fictional content is in the clear due to legalese, I think the fact that the official government website dedicated a paragraph specifically to fictional content clears that up sufficiently. Cantthinkofaname2022 (talk) 10:07, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done, although I would be more comfortable with an updated secondary source. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:31, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It has by now been reverted based on another editor's assumption that it's only a proposed law.

There is indeed a proposed law listed at the bottom of the page on https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/seksuele-misdrijven/kinderporno/kinderporno-is-strafbaar, but it is about criminalizing preparations to child abuse- it's currently not (always) illegal to take actions that could reasonably be assumed to lead to child abuse. The article provides an example in distributing a "manual containing tips and tricks on abusing children". Cantthinkofaname2022 (talk) 05:21, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

i have a question, when was that law made?(https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/seksuele-misdrijven/kinderporno/kinderporno-is-strafbaar) i went to here but i couldn't find when it was made. Brians198 (talk) 16:17, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot find when the current laws were made, but I fail to see how that would be important for a Wikipedia page on the current legality of (fictional) child pornography. In the past all child pornography was legal due to a legal loophole, but that's obviously not mentioned on this page either.

The (not relevant) draft law about criminalizing preparations was made somewhere in 2020 as it was published for public review on 23-07-2020.

If you're still uncertain of whether or not fictional content is legal in the Netherlands, here's what the police website (https://www.politie.nl/informatie/wat-valt-onder-kinderporno.html) has to say about it: "We speak of child pornography when it's about an image or video of a minor (under the age of 18) who performs sexual acts. [...] It's not just about sexual photos or videos of children, virtual content is also punishable. Think about, for example, drawings or compiled photos." Cantthinkofaname2022 (talk) 17:43, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What I mean is when was made “Virtuele kinderporno

Naast kinderporno bestaande uit beeldmateriaal van echte kinderen, is ook virtueel materiaal strafbaar. Deze virtuele kinderpornografie bestaat bijvoorbeeld uit animaties. Virtuele kinderporno is strafbaar omdat dit soort materiaal seksueel misbruik van kinderen suggereert.” <= this law. Brians198 (talk) 07:32, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You're not quoting a law. You're quoting the interpretation (by the government and the police) of the law (artikel 240b). According to Wikipedia this law is in effect since July 2018 (it's sourced as an archive https://web.archive.org/web/20180831211709/http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0001854/2018-07-01#BoekTweede_TiteldeelXIV_Artikel240b), but I am not a lawyer nor an expert on legislation so I cannot tell you when this law was effectively "made."

What is clear however is both the police and the government's official stance on the law. Why do you insist on assuming it's only a draft law when both of those institutions clearly say it's not, and proceed to revert the change based on those assumptions? Cantthinkofaname2022 (talk) 23:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If it is just interpretation by the government and the police, isn't it good should be 'legally unclear' than 'illegal in all cases'? Because it's not published law and just police's supposition. In UK, for example, where all cases are illegal, the law clearly states that virtual pornography is illegal. But maybe Netherlands is not like that. Brians198 (talk) 13:21, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You keep saying "It's not published law," and "isn't it only a proposed law?" without sourcing any of these claims. The current law (Artikel 240b) has been in effect for years.

Saying it isn't illegal "because it's just the government and police interpretation" is insane, who else is going to be the most reliable source?

The change you reverted now states there is a legal gray area. What is the source on that statement? A government interpretation from 2011. Cantthinkofaname2022 (talk) 03:17, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not fxcking talking about 'Artikel 240b'. you know? 'Artikel 240b' is clearly published law, that's i know. But 'fictinoal porno' is not announced by law. There is no law like 'fictional porno can be punish'. do you understand? Brians198 (talk) 05:44, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The simple question is: has the law been changed since the 2013 declaration by the dutch supreme court? https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/#!/details?id=ECLI:NL:HR:2013:BY9719 Because, to clarify BOTH SIDES ARE RIGHT. Even a drawing can be illegal according to 240b if it was made with the involvement of someone underage. However, as the Supreme Court declared, drawings without that are not illegal. 2001:4C4C:1ED1:9B00:A174:D435:88A7:5E7B (talk) 08:44, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 7 January 2023

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In the status of Turkey, change fictional's status to "Illegal" and replace the short summary with this text:

Child pornography and possession is illegal in Turkey with two to five years of imprisonment and 5000 days of fine for violations. Fictional child pornography has been banned since 2016, when KVKK went in effect.^[1]^[2]

The punishment for possession was corrected. See article 226. Fictional child pornography has been banned since 2016, as can be seen in 81st footnote of the penal code. Add a direct reference to penal code, which is in Turkish. 88.246.198.37 (talk) 19:43, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "2020 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: Turkey". United States Department of State. p. 60. Retrieved April 5, 2021.
^ "Türk Ceza Kanunu". Retrieved January 7, 2021.

[1] "2020 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: Turkey". United States Department of State. p. 60. Retrieved April 5, 2021.

[2] "Türk Ceza Kanunu". Retrieved January 7, 2021.

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