User talk:Michael D. Turnbull/Archives/2022

Question from ENES(Enchy) on Talk:Ivan Sergei (14:04, 2 January 2022)

Hi, my name is Enes and I am from Bosnia and Herzegovina. I am interested in information about his parents, because I think that Ivan Sergei actually comes from somewhere in the Balkans, I want to say his origin. Can I get information about it, just so I know. --ENES(Enchy) (talk) 14:04, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello ENES(Enchy), welcome to Wikipedia. I've deleted the repeats of your question: I'm not sure how you managed to get the copies! I'll add some general information about editing Wikipedia to your Talk Page in a little while. The key is that for biographies of living people Wikipedia has very strict standards. All statements must be backed up by reliable sources. These don't have to be online sources, although these days many of them will be. However, they have to be published in the sense that they are in principle available to anyone to verify they are accurate. So they can be in foreign languages or obscure books that only a few libraries might hold. I don't know why you believe that Ivan Sergei comes from somewhere in the Balkans because the article says he was born and raised in the US and that fact is backed up by the quoted sources. Similarly, this link quoted as a reference mentions his Italian / Dutch descent, which I would assume means that these were the nationalities of his parents. Of course, sources can be wrong but if you want to alter the article, you'll need to find other source(s) which back up what you intend to add. You cannot just put in information you personally believe to be true: on WIkipedia we call this original research and it is strictly forbidden here. By all means come back and add any further questions you have for me into this thread. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:43, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Question from SobieskyPL (09:23, 4 January 2022)

Hi, I accidentally added letter „g” in this article. How can I revert this change?

Article: https://pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macierz_odwrotna --SobieskyPL (talk) 09:23, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi SobieskyPL. You can revert any edit you make on any page just by going to the "History" tab that appears alongside the article in question and clicking on the "undo" option in the list of edits that appear alongside your name/timestamp. I note that this question on my Talk Page is the only edit your account has made to the English Wikipedia and that the page you linked to (on the Polish Wikipedia) has never been edited by you — its last edit was on 18 August 2021. So are you sure of your facts? Maybe you edited the page but did not save the changes? Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:46, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Thanks for your heed! 589q (talk) 17:36, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Question from Suriyakp93 (10:30, 19 January 2022)

hi sir how to get a editing job in Wikipedia --Suriyakp93 (talk) 10:30, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

There are no jobs here, if you mean work for payment, Suriyakp93. All contributors are volunteers who do what they can, when they can. Wikipedia is one of the most-read websites in the world and is proud of its largely accurate articles on a huge variety of topics. I am rewarded by the knowledge that my writing here will be around long after I'm gone! Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:45, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Merger of Alkane stereochemistry into Conformational isomerism

Hi, there has been a recent objection to the merger of Alkane stereochemistry into Conformational isomerism so I was wondering if you would be willing to rejoin the discussion again since the consensus was made years ago but I want to ensure that this current objection is heard by the original participants of the discussion before I merge and remove this from the backlog. Thanks! -Karthanitesh (talk) 00:54, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Actually, Karthanitesh, the original discussion was only one year ago. I've made another comment and I think the consensus is pretty clear as a merge: I hope you are happy to do the work! Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:16, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

You're right! Sorry, the new year has made me forgotten how much time actually has past. Thanks for your reply and when a week has passed since the last comment, I will do the merger! -Karthanitesh (talk) 15:46, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Question from JoyousCreative (15:22, 21 January 2022)

Hi Mike Turnbull! If something happened in an episode of a TV show (e.g., last night, Coco Rocha appeared as a guest judge on Project Runway), do you need to add a source for this information? If so, what would be appropriate (e.g., a link to the episode summary on the channel)? (There are no good news sources talking about this so that as a reference isn't a choice right now.) Thanks, in advance, if you have any advice. I couldn't figure it out by searching the help. --JoyousCreative (talk) 15:22, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi JoyousCreative. The relevant policy is this one on the biographies of living people, namely all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source. Now, you have added material that is very current, so sourcing is a problem and Wikipedia is not a newspaper nor is it a gossip column. More important, from my experience, is whether the fact of her appearance in this particular show is likely to continue to be a significant part of her career when seen from the perspective of, say, five years' time. If not, then that information is not really of encyclopaedic value. So: what should you do? I suggest you wait a couple of weeks and see whether any newspaper or magazine picks up that appearance and comments on it. If they do, then you can add that as a source. I don't think that you should just link to the episode summary, on the basis that WP:Secondary sources are always better than WP:Primary ones and you certainly want to avoid what some editors call WP:Fancruft. Meanwhile, if anyone reverts your addition to the article today, don't fret about it and take any debate to the relevant Talk Page. Once there is a secondary source, I don't think that there could be an objection to the information being there. Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:11, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

Mike Turnbull Thank you for your help! I looked her up because I didn't know who she was when I watched the episode (as she was the main star and it was all about her and they even changed the rules just to include her prominently), and—when reading her Wikipedia bio—I noticed that her significant appearances on other shows were part of her bio but this new appearance was not there. 

I think you may be right, though. It may or may not fall into that fancruft bucket. Since I'm not an expert on what matters in the lives of supermodels, I will definitely defer to other editors with more expertise!

Thank you for taking the time to share all of those detailed notes and specific documentation links. They help so much in my understanding.

JoyousCreative (talk) 17:31, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Question from Uscool bea on User talk:MrOllie (22:15, 24 January 2022)

Hello how can i make people like my videos --Uscool bea (talk) 22:15, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi Uscool bea. I'm afraid I don't understand your question. This addition to my User Talk Page is the only edit from your account so far. Why are you interested in MrOllie's Talk Page and what has that to do with liking videos? Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:20, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia Library

Hello Mike. Thank you for your offer at the Teahouse to retrieve a Cambridge Core article for my studies into Joseph Vallot. The link to what I'm after is here. If you need me to email me so that you have somewhere to send a pdf, just let me know. (It will be a relief not to have to wade through an article in French for a change!) Cheers, Nick Moyes (talk) 19:33, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

@Nick Moyes: Email on way so I can send the .pdf to you. Mike Turnbull (talk) 09:38, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Question from XS0UL3AT3Rx (02:49, 31 January 2022)

I wanted to start a wiki page for Son of a Fink and the crew. What do you suggest? First time creating a page --XS0UL3AT3Rx (talk) 02:49, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi XS0UL3AT3Rx and welcome to Wikipedia editing. I Googled "Son of a Fink and the crew" and found only a few hits, mainly to their own website and a few Facebook entries. That means it will be virtually impossible to create an article on Wikipedia for them. There are billions of people on the planet and millions of organisations, so Wikipedia has to be selective in what it covers and it does that by insisting that anything mentioned here is WP:NOTABLE. There's a lot more about that and other aspects of writing for Wikipedia at this link you should read carefully. My usual advice to newcomers is to start slowly making small edits to topics of interest to you that are already covered by an existing article. I'll add a section on your Talk Page to give some further links that might be helpful. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:49, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Thiamine for GA

I am considering this as my next GA nomination for a vitamin, after I finish with Vitamin A, which I will be nominating on February 1st. My usual approach is to check all references, first to see if valid, then second to see if they can be replaced by newer references to content that is 100% available on line. From past experience raising vitamin articles to GA, the process involves removing one-third to one-half of existing refs (and quite a bit of article content), and then expanding content and adding refs. Section titles and order will be made to be more aligned with the other GA vitamin articles. You are welcome if you want to either join in the bloodbath or oppose any of my edits. David notMD (talk) 16:26, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, David, I thought you might move on to thiamine and that's why I recently added some chemistry there. Go ahead with your trims and I'll chip in when I can; and certainly once the GA review starts. Mike Turnbull (talk) 18:36, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

FYI - I intend to complete the full set of vitamins, but dread tackling vitamin D. And also FYI - vitamin A and immune function was what my doctoral thesis was about, but given that was 40 years ago, I do not consider that a COI. David notMD (talk) 21:10, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Invitation to discussion: FAC 4 nomination of nonmetal

Please accept this note as an invitation to participate in the discussion of this latest FAC nomination for the nonmetal article.

The context is that you were involved in the FAC 3 discussion for the article (which was not prompted) or you are an editor who made a recent edit to the nonmetal article.

Thank you. Sandbh (talk) 07:12, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Question from Yeasin Skyhawk (16:07, 15 February 2022)

Hi --Yeasin Skyhawk (talk) 16:07, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

And hi to you also, Yeasin. I've added some links to your User Page that I hope you will find helpful. By all means continue in this section if you want more information. Meanwhile, make sure that anything you add to Wikipedia includes reliable sources that confirm what you have included. The lack of sourcing was why your first-ever edit was reverted. Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:56, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Oh thats why it was reverted. Thanks for the information Yeasin Skyhawk (talk) 18:25, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

DYK for 5-Aminoimidazole ribotide

On 28 February 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article 5-Aminoimidazole ribotide, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that RNA, DNA, and vitamins B₁ and B₁₂ are all made from AIR? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/5-Aminoimidazole ribotide. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, 5-Aminoimidazole ribotide), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:03, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Question from Rubinia87 (14:39, 10 March 2022)

Hi Michael

I am sorry for bothering you. I tried to solve that issue myself but I am lost. I edit a List of Ghost towns. Some of them of course come from the same source. I was able to put a Reference in over Cite -> automatic. But I can't reuse it. that tap is inactive. I added the cite again and again but then I see it in the Ref List 10 times. I also didn't find the Ref Tool Wikipedias help tell me tu use and then reuse. How can I use the same Cite again then? --Rubinia87 (talk) 14:39, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

No bother, that's what mentors are for, Rubinia87! So, suppose we look at the first reference To reuse it, follow the instructions at WP:REFNAME. This means putting something like <ref name=Hancock> in place of the first <ref> tag (if you look at this in the source editor, you'll see I've done that). Now, everywhere you want to re-use that reference you just place <ref name=Hancock/>(note the final forward slash) and that second or third instance will work. Don't be confused by the nowiki tags here in my reply. They're only there to prevent the Wiki software from doing its magic: they aren't part of what you need for a named reference. Good luck with your editing. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:58, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi. Thank you for your help. I tried it again. made the cite on the first one and then use <ref name=Hancock/ >. It didnt work again. I dont know where I dont understand that. Then I had a look on the edit source of your answer, saw how your secnd and third time is made and tried it that way. Like <nowiki><ref name=Hancock><nowiki/ >. I on purpose saved the list wrong in case you want to see it in my article. List of ghost towns in Ohio. I know though that I should not make a space between / and >. I did some html coding, what makes me even more frustrated that this doesnt work haha. I code a website, why cant i make that work. Rubinia87 (talk) 17:53, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I see the problem. While you correctly tried to reuse the Hancock reference, you didn't put the ref name=Hancock part in the FIRST instance where you created the reference, which gave an error because as far as the software was concerned, it didn't know what you meant when invoking that cite again later in the page. I fixed this with this edit today. In looking a the article, I note that most of the entries refer to "Hacock County", not "Hancock County", which I suppose is a typo? Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:37, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

@Rubinia87:, sorry forgot the ping... Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:38, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

References

Question from Mikeygio2000 (17:40, 15 March 2022)

Hello, sorry to bother you. I’m athlete and I’m trying to create a Wikipedia page for myself. How might I do that? --Mikeygio2000 (talk) 17:40, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

(by talk reader) @Mikeygio2000: Wikipedia does not allow autobiographies. Writing our encyclopedia does not include using Wikipedia to promote yourself. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:17, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

@Mikeygio2000: Strictly speaking, autobiography is not forbidden, merely strongly discouraged for the good reason that it is difficult for the subject of a biography to write it to Wikipedia's somewhat demanding standards. More pertinently in your case is that Wikipedia restricts its articles (not "pages": this is not social media) to those topics which are notable by very exacting standards. Otherwise all 7 billion of us on the planet would be justified in having articles about ourselves. According to your User Page, I guess you feel your NCAA Division 1 soccer playing may be notable. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. If you look at Wikipedia's criteria WP:NSOCCER you'll see that only fully professional soccer players (i.e. those paid a salary that they can live on and do not need additional sources of income) would qualify on that basis alone. So my advice is to continue to pursue your dreams in Spain and forget about having any sort of biography here. By all means contribute to the encyclopaedia by adding to its existing articles in areas that interest you: most if not all can be improved.... Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:02, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

DYK for Carol Van Strum

On 11 April 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Carol Van Strum, which you recently nominated. The fact was ... that Carol Van Strum, an environmental activist who wrote the book A Bitter Fog, accumulated 20,000 documents across 40 years that revealed corporate and government cover-ups? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Carol Van Strum. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Carol Van Strum), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 00:02, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Question from Dervishj (11:26, 16 April 2022)

Hello! Im new on the Wikipedia, I want to translate some things but ı dont know anything about how add languages etc. Please, help me! Thanks! --Dervishj (talk) 11:26, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Dervishj and welcome to Wikipedia! Lots of people help out by translating articles between the various language version of the encyclopaedia and the main advice is given at WP:TRANSLATE. I've never personally done this as my only second language (French) is weak. You may like to take a look at my User Page to see how editors normally tell others about the languages they are competent in, with a "Babel box". You should never attempt to translate articles unless you are fairly competent in both: and don't rely on rough methods like Google translate except to give you a first draft, perhaps. On the English Wikipedia we insist on reliable sources for information, so place as much emphasis on looking at the foreign-language sources as you do on the text that's been based on them. Some of the best translations completely re-write the text based on the sources, rather than slavishly follow the paraphrasing in existing articles. Note that foreign sources are acceptable in English articles but if English-language ones exist they are to be preferred. Get back to me in this Section of my Talk Page if you have more questions once you get going, or use the Teahouse, where new editors will quickly get advice from those with more experience. Good luck! Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:46, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank Dervishj (talk) 15:41, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Question from Kreesa Sales (17:17, 25 April 2022)

hey Michael, how can I add wiki about my business? --Kreesa Sales (talk) 17:17, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the simple answer is "you can't". Wikipedia forbids promotion and insists that editors who are paid by the company they write about declare that fact (see link). That is a mandatory part of Wikipedia terms and conditions. The company itself would need to be notable in a specific way that yours probably doesn't meet. If your company is notable, then someone unconnected to it would probably already written about it! If you think about it, there are literally millions of companies in the world and billions of people, so Wikipedia has to limit what it covers. You would be better to spend your efforts on the company's own website and social media presence. Mike Turnbull (talk) 06:45, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@Kreesa Sales: pinging you in case you didn't put this page on your watch list. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:38, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Tirzepatide

Hello sir, sorry to come bothering you again. I just wanted to let you know that our article, Tirzepatide, has had an explosion in pageviews (most likely due to Eli & Lilly's Q1 results being posted), the compound has had mentions in large publications such as Bloomberg & MarketWatch, I just thought that was really cool, and our efforts are now visible to more people. X-750 _{I've made a mistake, haven't I?} 10:51, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Hey X750, that's not bothering me at all — please don't apologise! That's great news and makes the time I spent doing the drawing and describing the chemistry worth the effort.... Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:09, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Most certainly, teamwork makes the dream work! X-750 _{I've made a mistake, haven't I?} 11:45, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Question from Masterdog75 (11:34, 8 April 2022)

Hiya,

I'm trying to upload the logo for the Kenton Theatre to its page, but it keeps getting blocked. Which is a pain! Help ?! (Please) I should point out, I am their PR guy! Just for some reason it's not having this logo at all.

Cheers in advance Samx --Masterdog75 (talk) 11:34, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

@Masterdog75: I'm happy to help (I'm a theatre fan although usually attend in London)! There are a load of considerations for the Kenton Theatre article, so let's take them slowly and stepwise. First, although the article has existed on Wikipedia since 2006, it would probably not be accepted if it had been drafted and submitted today. Mainly that's because it has no in-line sources that show it is notable in Wikipedia's somewhat strict sense and allow the reader to verify that what's stated is accurate. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, so it seeks to summarise what reliable published information states that's written by people independent of the subject. In this case, this means that the theatre's own website is a poor source and we need to drill down to coverage in books, newspaper articles or scholarly journals. I note that a search at this URL in Google scholar has a few hits that are worthy of follow-up but don't scream out as giving significant coverage. Can you suggest some sources that can back up what the article says (they don't have to be online but they do have to be independently published)?

Thanks for revealing that you are the PR person for the theatre. It's very important to be upfront about this: Wikipedia has mandatory terms and conditions that you must read and fully comply with (see WP:PAID). In particular you need to add to your user page a note about your conflict-of-interest in relation to the theatre. Then you should edit only on the article's talk page at Talk:Kenton Theatre, where I and other interested editors can decide that suggestions you make about changes to the article itself are OK and in particular don't stray into WP:PROMOTION which is strictly forbidden. Make all your suggestions there (not here on my Userpage) from now on and between us we can improve the article.

Finally on the logo of the theatre: by which I assume you mean the text+theatrical masks which I can see on the theatre's website. You need to read WP:LOGO to better understand the issues. Were you to upload the logo to Wikimedia Commons it would have to be released under a license that would allow anyone, anywhere in the world, to use it for any purpose including commercial purposes (without paying the theatre any royalties). As you can imagine, most organisations don't want that and if they do their CEO needs to be aware of this and approve! So, instead, Wikipedia typically takes an approach called "fair use", which allows low-resolution versions of logos to be uploaded here on the English-language Wikipedia and used ONLY within the article about the organisation in question. To do that, you would follow the instructions at WP:FUR, which can be a bit tricky but is certainly possible. I can do this for you if you confirm that the fair-use way is how you wish to go. Just continue editing into this section for getting help on that and anything else you need advice on, as distinct from potential additions to the article. Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:06, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

@Masterdog75: As you will have noted, I have worked on the article Kenton Theatre which has IMO improved it considerably. I could do more if I had access to Bill Port's book. The article could do with some basic photographs of the exterior and the stage as seen from the auditorium. I suggest you take some with your own camera and upload them, as copyright holder, to Wikimedia Commons. Conflict-of-interest does not apply to such uploads (although it would if you attempted to add them to the article, so just let me know here when you're done). Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:08, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

FYI

I got an answer to my Teahouse question you tried to help with: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#About_previously_deleted_versions_of_an_article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:41, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Question from Tristan lebggg on User:Tristan lebggg (17:24, 13 May 2022)

Hi, I just joined and I trie to import a photo on my Wikipedia page, and i don’t succeed. Can you help me please?

(I’m on IPad, btw) --Tristan lebggg (talk) 17:24, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Hello Tristan lebggg. I see that whatever you have been doing on your User Page has been removed as not being appropriate there. Please read WP:UPYES to learn what sort of thing is allowed. Placing images on any page uses the same mechanism, explained at WP:IMAGES. Mostly we use images from Wikimedia Commons that are properly licensed from a copyright point of view. You will get into trouble if you try to use images whose copyright status is not clear. May I suggest that you spend some time editing existing articles rather than worrying about your own Userpage? You don't want to be accused of being WP:NOTHERE. Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:37, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Question from Prodigiousfool (17:19, 31 May 2022)

Hi Mike, I created my first article and I was wondering if you could give it a look and see if it looks good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Rubicon_(protein). Thanks! --Prodigiousfool (talk) 17:19, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi Prodigiousfool. At first glance it looks excellent. The date errors in the refs are easily fixed (just use year without month or full YYYY-MM-DD instead). I'm a bit short of time now but I'll take a more detailed look tomorrow. Well done, given that this seems to be your first ever article! Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:34, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi again Prodigiousfool. I took another look at Draft:Rubicon (protein) and Draft:Rubicon homology domain and fixed the cite errors. I'm sure that these drafts will be accepted and I just have general comments. The first article, in particular, could do with a bit of expansion. According to WP:LEAD, the introduction (section before the contents box) should summarise what the rest of the article says. So I'm always a bit worried when it includes citations that are not repeated in the main article. The majority of your 16 references appear there but not again, which suggests to me you are not really summarising but stating stuff you don't repeat later. For a general readership I think it would in any case be better to use as simple wording in the lead as you possibly can. What is Rubicon's role, where does it occur and why is it notable? Cut out the jargon, where possible (e.g. NF-κB essential modulator (NEMO), interferon regulatory factor 3 (IRF3)], caspase recruitment domain-containing protein 9 (CARD9)), leaving these as later detail. Remember that most readers don't get beyond the lead and it is the lead that will be shown in places like Google's knowledge panel. That said, you have done an excellent job, to the point that I suspect you have perhaps edited here before as an IP! Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:08, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

@Michael D. Turnbull, thanks so much for your kind words and help. I'll definitely take your advice on restructuring the jargon out of the introduction, and expanding detail in later sections. Thinking about it in terms of what will show up in knowledge panels is a great exercise. Thanks again! -Prodigiousfool Prodigiousfool (talk) 15:41, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Discussion of bonding of O₂ and combustion

Hi Mike: Thank you for the constructive discussions of the bonding of O₂ and its consequences for the energetics of combustion etc. I have modified sentences on the page on fire to take into account your suggestions. Could you take a look if you agree and maybe also weigh in on the corresponding discussion on the talk page? Thanks. Klaus Schmidt-Rohr (talk) 12:48, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello Klaus Schmidt-Rohr. One of the problems with Wikipedia editing is that you have to reach a WP:CONSENSUS, which can be difficult when the issues are so technical and editors here are of unknown competence and may have hidden agendas. I do indeed think that your (or my, based on my reading of some of the literature!) suggestion is correct and useful but the ship has sailed as far as placing such comments into articles here is concerned, at least in the short term. Many of your additions are being reverted as we speak (the one at fire already has been). I think that's unfortunate but in a project like this my response is to move on in the assumption that the wisdom of crowds will eventually win out. I would encourage you to do the same: our limited time and energy is better spent in improving the encyclopaedia in other ways. You also have the advantage, as a current teacher of students and active researcher, to contribute to chemical knowledge elsewhere. Please do, however, continue to bring your skills to Wikipedia editing — I can see from your edit history that you have improved lots of articles. Meanwhile, I'm currently engaged in a minor crusade to help the New Page Patrollers to expunge Xerosydryle from the encyclopaedia. The article has been drafted in good faith but relies on really WP:FRINGE science. If you need a bit of light relief, try reading DOI:10.14294/WATER.2021.2, on which it is based! Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:37, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Oxygen as a "waste product" of photosynthesis

I think you said at some point in the endless oxygen discussions that you are skeptical of the view that oxygen is a waste product of photosynthesis. I am, too, and was wondering whether you have any good references that might need to be reflected in our coverage of photosynthesis.

IpseCustos (talk) 19:10, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@IpseCustos: I thought this would be easy, as Plant respiration redirects to Cellular respiration and Cellular_respiration#Aerobic_respiration is just what is needed. Sadly, no-one seems to have noticed that the only citation for that section (currently ref #2) is an earlier OID from Wikipedia and thus a circular reference! Fortunately, a quick look in Google scholar gave me DOI:10.1002/9780470015902.a0001301.pub3, which has a .pdf version available here. This seems fine, although it doesn't actually say "not a waste product". I'm an organic chemist, not a biochemist, so I don't own any biochemistry textbooks but there must be plenty that discuss plant respiration and the fact that oxygen is required for this. Hope that helps! Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:27, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, IpseCustos, I looked at that rather hastily yesterday and actually ref #2 in that article is fine for use elsewhere. The ref DOI:10.1042/bst0311095 is a good review covering the respiratory chain. So together with the other article I found, there's plenty to back up the fact that (some of) the oxygen released by plants is re-absorbed for respiration. In fact, there is a quote Plant respiration thus plays a major role in the global carbon cycle as much of the CO2 assimilated by photosynthetic terrestrial plants is released back into the atmosphere by respiring plants, accounting for approximately 50% of the total annual CO2 input from terrestrial ecosystems (Gifford, 2003) in the Plaxton publication! I'll try to fix ref #4 of Cellular respiration to remove the WP:CIRCULAR cite. Incidentally, I think the first paragraph of Thermodynamic free energy is a brief explanation of why "high energy bond" and similar terminology is not helpful. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:09, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! I must say I find this question in particular fascinating, because I'm not aware of how to describe in evolutionary terms that while oxygen was a waste product initially, released carelessly into an atmosphere where it would bounce around for a while before disappearing, plants started relying on the oxygen released by other plants in what the unwary might call an example of cooperation. "When cooperation is unavoidable, cooperate" even sounds like it might be a Wikipedia policy.

Be that as it may, no one appears to have had the guts to flatly contradict this particular textbook phrase in a reliable source, We can't really omit the first letter from https://www.tudelft.nl/en/stories/articles/co2-is-not-a-waste-product-but-a-raw-material .

"High-energy bonds" is an unhelpful term indeed. "A stores three times more energy than B because its (negative) average bond energy is a third of B's" is a real howler, though. IpseCustos (talk) 15:51, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

IpseCustos I don't think that oxygen was ever a waste product in evolutionary terms, as the Plaxton quote makes clear. Plants found they could capture and use the sunlight so that in net terms they grew but I'm sure that respiration was always part of that. Early on, earth's atmosphere was CO2-rich and O2-poor and only after aeons did it become the other way round. The point about humans re-using carbon dioxide is that to do so requires lots of energy, which we have to get from somewhere other than burning fossil fuels if we are to avoid global warming. As of today, we aren't doing a very good job of using sources like sunlight/wind power/tidal. Folk who think we should be storing CO2 (as the URL you supplied) are being disingenuous, since there would be no need to build expensive storage facilities if we recycled the stuff quickly enough: we could just use the atmosphere as a store, as plants do for oxygen! Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:07, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Question from DebCBanerjee on Wikipedia:Contact us/Readers (07:17, 12 July 2022)

There are some contributions done for some articles by me. but can not see those changes. Why is that so ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Isle_City,_New_Jersey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_range https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_beaches https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_office/home_office https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office --DebCBanerjee (talk) 07:18, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

@DebCBanerjee: I took a look at your full list of contributions, which Wikipedia stores at Special:Contributions/DebCBanerjee. this shows me straight away that all but your first edit and the one here on my Talk Page have been reverted by other editors. Reversion is not unusual, it is the way Wikipedia editors seek WP:CONSENSUS for what should be retained in articles. See WP:BRD for more on this. To take one specific example, your edit to Sea Isle City, New Jersey was removed about two hours after you added it by Alansohn, who left an WP:EDITSUMMARY saying "rv [i.e.remove] spam". I have to agree with them. Your addition did not add to the encyclopaedic value of the article and used a reference "Vacation Home and Rental Service in Sea Isle City". Business Upside. April 18, 2022.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link) which if anything turns the article into a tourist guide, which is one of the things that Wikipedia is not.

By looking at the history tab of the other articles, you will be able to see similar comments from others who reverted you (or, if not you could ask them on their Talk pages). As a newcomer to Wikipedia editing, you need to tread carefully. The change you made to Small office/home office, for example, was to add Home office as a "See also". If you actually click on that link you'll see that it leads to an article on a government department in the UK: this has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of small offices! Hence it should not be offered as a suggestion of the "more information" type in that "See also" section. As the editor who removed your addition mentioned in their edit summary, the article already has what we call a WP:HATNOTE to point readers who accidentally arrive at that article when they meant to look for the article about the government department. Please don't be put off by all this. We expect new editors to make some mistakes and provided you learn from them you will over time become a valuable contributor. Seek further help, either from me here or at the WP:TEAHOUSE and you should find that the community is quite welcoming. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:01, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @Michael D. Turnbull for helping me so much to become a good editor on Wikipedia DebCBanerjee (talk) 08:55, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Question from DebCBanerjee on Wikipedia:Teahouse (07:50, 25 July 2022)

How will I start writing an article for a software company? --DebCBanerjee (talk) 07:50, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi again, DebCBanerjee. Writing articles from scratch is really tough for new editors! If you wish to try, make sure you read WP:YFA very carefully and follow the advice, which includes using the WP:AFC process. The reason many new articles fail to be acceptable is because they don't convince the reviewers that the topic is sufficiently notable in Wikipedia's special meaning of that word. It isn't enough that the software company exits: they have to meet a detailed set of requirements for companies, mostly that they have been written about by third parties who are WP:INDEPENDENT of them and who have written substantial pieces about them. So, do you have, say, three such sources upon which to base your draft? If so, perhaps you could list them here for me to take a look at and I'll advise whether it is worth your proceeding with the writing. The format for the sourcing within articles is explained at WP:CITE. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:10, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi Mike Turnbull, I want to review my article before publishing. How will I do that. DebCBanerjee (talk) 04:55, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi again DebCBanerjee. As far as I can tell, you have not yet tried to draft any new articles. When you do, please follow the articles for creation link which is a help page with a "Click here to start a new article" button. This allows you to begin to draft something but it does not go straight into the main encyclopaedia: it is held in a special area for drafts. In terms of "review....before publishing" I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If you are using the source editor, there is an option to preview what the text you have typed will look like, as explained at WP:PREVIEW. You don't need to actually save/publish that text but you'll lose it unless you copy/paste the text out into a local text editor on your PC or other device. Drafts don't need to be produced in one large edit. They can be built up slowly using a series of small edits, save/publishing each part as you go, just like within the main encyclopaedia. Once you are happy that the draft is ready for scrutiny by experienced editors to accept (or decline) it, you can use the "submit article for review" option. You could also post the link to your draft here so that I can take a look and give more advice. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:02, 1 August 2022 (UTC)