Talk:History of Ethiopia/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Ethiopia

Hello! What year did Ethiopia gain its independence and from who? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.33.159.84 (talk • contribs) 11:25, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ethiopia has been independent for more than 2000 years. SCHZMO ✍ 19:07, 1 May 2006 (U

The person who asked the first question knows anything about Ethiopian history at all.

Axsum

This article once stated that the founders of Axsum were from Southern Arabia, there is no evidence to support the founders of Axsum were not simple the native Ethiopians. this kind of anti-African scholarship needs to be removed because everytime it suggest that native African people cannot found civilization. This is very old thinking and needs revision, most modern thinking scholars understand this myth of the "non African" origins of Axsum was founded at a time when it was impossible to believe Africans had anything to do with civilization.--Halaqah 19:10, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

im kind of confused by the first sentence of this section, and i have the simplest question possible to that person, where did human civilization start? i would suggest you look it up!. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.26.161.111 (talk) 13:22, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, civilization started in northern Mesopotamia (where the Taurus and Zagros slope to the plain), and from there spread to the Levant, southern Mesopotamia, the Arabian peninsula and to Africa. At around 3300 BCE the Mesopotamians (at that time Sumerians) began to set up sea trade connections with the lands adjacent to the Gulf of Aden, via the Gulf of Oman, from the Persian Gulf. Cultural and political influence soon followed, and it triggered the formation of new political structures in northeast Africa, ultimately including pharaonic Egypt. The Mesopotamian traders and later settlers on both sides of the Bab-el-Mandeb were known as the Pœn and would later be collectively known as Punt (Pwenet, with a silent t at the end) by the Egyptians, and would after a further migration to the Mediterranean become the Phoenicians (Pun). The Pœn culturally impacted greatly every area that they extended their trade to, and they brought with them knowledge of agriculture, city-building, and sea-faring that was greater than anything the indigenous populations possessed. The ancient culture of the Abyssinian highlands bears many signs of indirect Mesopotamian/Pœnite influence, and it may even be that the ruling caste were partly Pœnite.

The Aksumite kingdom of the 5th century BCE onward is a different story. That is the time when Egypt finally lost her independence and was then ruled by foreign powers (Persians, Macedonians, Romans) and no longer controlled her southern neighbors. CUSH 08:30, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Abyssinia

No mention of Ethiopia beinng previously named Abyssinia up until after WWII? --Nazikiwe 17:42, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I wondered about the name change myself. But note that in the film Casablanca (1942), they make reference to Rick's involvement with "Ethiopians." -- Gyrofrog (talk) 07:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

My 13th-edition Enc Brit (1926) has entries for both "Abyssinia" and "Ethiopia". The former begins "ABYSSINIA (officially ETHIOPIA)", and is the main article on the geography, history, and culture of the country; the latter describes the use of the term "Ethiopia" in classical Greece and Rome (which was a larger area of which modern Ethiopia is a subset), and also discusses Ethiopic law and literature. So it would appear that the term Ethiopia has always been used, and it's just that Abyssinia was also used at one time to distinguish the modern entity from the ancient. — Haeleth Talk 10:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Except for rule by Italians in the 1930s and 1940s, Ethiopia stands out (with Liberia) as one of the two places in Africa which were never colonized. This fact should be mentioned if it isnt already.

Map from 1908

The historical map is a neat addition. For what it's worth, I have one that is apparently older than that (which should place it in the public domain) but it might be too detailed to provide a useful online image. The map is actually titled "Upper Nubia and Habesh (Abyssinia)." Pretty interesting, as it doesn't actually say "Ethiopia" anywhere, and the southern part of Abyssinia barely stretches past the present locations of Addis Ababa and Adama (neither of which even appear on the map). I think the actual information on the map must precede its publication by quite a few years. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:28, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I've uploaded the 1891 map. See Image:UpperNubiaAndAbyssinia1891map.jpg, and two excerpts that focus on Abyssinia, Image:Abyssinia1891map-excerpt1.jpg and Image:Abyssinia1891map excerpt2.jpg. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 07:28, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Copyvio

http://www.newtimes.co.rw/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2892&Itemid=35

Archer7 22:57, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, that was written 10 Jan 2006 and copied from various editors words that have been up here for quite some time. Check the article history. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 23:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

It appears they also copied some text from the Ethiopian calendar article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:23, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that, things like that look a lot more suspicious on the Simple English Wikipedia! Archer7 21:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

A couple of sections that this article badly needs help with:

1. We need a narrative for the first centuries of the Solomonid dynasty, viz. 1270-1510. This is an embarassing omission, since some authorities consider this a peak of Ethiopian civilization.
2. Also need text for the Gondarine period, 1630-1750.
3. The "Age of the Princes" section either needs to be severly pruned down -- or excised into its own article (which would still need a lot of work).
4. More contemporary events; this narrative ends in the early 1990s with the end of the Derg & the beginning of the new regime.

I'd work on fixing all of this, but I'm not sure when I can find a large enough block of time to accomplish this rewrite. -- llywrch 21:29, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I can add significant text to the Solomonid dynasty (why not -ic?) in the 1270-1527 period using Taddesse Tamrat's authoritative work, but the other sections (especially the Zemene Mesafint) I can't really help much with. I'll try and add the text tonight, but I may not get to it for a few days.

Yom 21:36, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The "Earliest history" and "The Aksumite Kingdom" sections seemed to be a bit lacking in some areas, so I made some additions there. I'll try to find time to add to the Solominid dynasty, but it may take me a while. The Zemene Mesafint should be its own article, with much less information here (it's not nearly as important pr interesting as other eras, despite the size of the text presented). With regards to modern events, I'll add some information regarding the first few years of EPRDF rule, the border war (from the well cited, if not diversely, article on wikipedia), and a few notes about the recent elections.

Yom 20:47, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

Well, to start cleanup, we could center the picture in the infobox.--Simfan34 15:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I see you centered it. That's weird that it wasn't already centered though. It was for me at least. Thanks for that, though. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 18:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Abuse that can't be edited?

Someone abused the very first line, which now reads, "Link to your mom" , but I'm not allowed to edit it out for some reason. I am not a new user, and yes, I'm logged in. Neil the Cellist 17:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Fixed it. Someone was mucking with the Template, which is why it couldn't be edited on this page. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Modern History of Ethiopia's Empire

Does anybody have the knowledge/background to write a section on Ethiopia's expansion in the late 19th/early 20th century? In order for outsiders to understand "what is Ethiopia", the article needs to explain clearly how modern Ethiopia was built up from a tiny core in Gondor in 1855, to a united Abyssinia in the late 19th century and finally expanding beyond its historical borders into neighbouring Oromo, Ogaden and other regions. 82.133.110.226 05:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Pankrust is wildly inaccurate in amny areas and it is disgusting for an Ethiopian like me to buy this idea. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.157.108.133 (talk • contribs) 16:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Dark Ages???

I am surprised by the use "Dark Ages" This is colloqial term that often is used to describe the Middle Ages. But has no scholarly credibility any more. So if it is not used in European history, why in African history??? The Middle Ages is also problematic, but at least is not pejorative. The title aside, the Lalibela Era is given rather short shrift.71.126.249.67 14:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Brosi 14:21, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

This term is used to describe the period between the 8th and 11th centuries, where there is a dearth of information, and when the infamous (although not necessarily so horrible in actuality) Gudit came to power (in the early/mid 10th century). It's not exactly a parallel usage with the European one, although the periods do end up falling at the same time. The European usage implies a low-level of civilization and quality of achievements, while the Ethiopian usage is much more like the Greek one, in that it refers to a lack of information, as well as the decline in the Aksumite Empire's strength, although there wasn't such a fall in civilization as in Europe (most of the hundreds of rock-hewn churches of Tigray were made during this period, e.g.). Note, that this isn't an independent decision by Wikipedians to use the term, but a commonly-used one by Ethiopisants/Ethiopicists. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 18:00, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

public domain content to incorporate

The Library of Congress Country Studies have a really detailed public domain history of Ethiopia that could be pasted in here, but I'm not sure I have the expertise to integrate it with the existing content. Check it out at http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/ettoc.html . Mangostar (talk) 02:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Account of Ethiopia by Herodotus

Herodotus stated in his Histories a story of the Persian King Cambyses sending messengers to Ethiopia bearing gifts of wine, a purple linen, and a gold-braided bracelet. The messengers wer in fact, spies sent to determine the strength of the Ethiopians, and to find the legendaryTable of the Sun. The Ethiopian king (who remained unamed by Herodotus, understood the ploy of teh Persians, and rebuked the messengers. Cambyses learning this upon the return of his messengers, started out with his army to invade Ethiopia, though he was ill-prepared for such an endeavor, and ultimately had to turn back do to lack of supplies. Herosotus further mentions that the Ethiopians were the most beautiful people on earth, and the longest lived. Though the last statements are POV by Herodotus himself, I think these points should be introduced into the article, which I will be more than happy to do, citing the Histories as a reference, with sub-references to the Book numbers and chapters. Anyone else concur?Nathraq (talk) 02:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, (sorry for my english) I have made some research in french about the "Table of the Sun", here is an extract from a book available on Google books here:

Chapter 2

(in French) "Les Éthiopiens, pères des Égyptiens, placés sous un climat brûlant, n’en adoraient pas moins la divinité du soleil, et surtout celle de la lune, qui présidait aux nuits, dont la douce fraîcheur faisait oublier les ardeurs du jour. Tous les africains sacrifiaient à ces deux grandes divinités. C’est en Éthiopie que l’on trouvait la fameuse table du soleil. Ceux des Éthiopiens qui habitaient au dessus de Méroë, admettaient des dieux éternels et d’une nature incorruptible, nous dit Diodore, tels que le soleil, la lune, et tout l’Univers ou le Monde. Semblables aux Incas du Pérou, ils se disaient enfants du soleil, qu’ils regardaient comme leur premier père ; Persina était prêtresse de la lune, et le roi son époux, prêtre du Soleil.

(in English) (translation) "The ethiopians, fathers of the egyptians, living on a hot climate, nevertheless adorated the god of the Sun,and the god of the moon, commanding the nights (...). All africans adorated these two gods. It's in Ethiopia that the Table of the Sun can be found. The ethiopians that live above Meroe Méroë, adorated eternal gods, said Diodore, as the Sun, the Moon, and the Universe or the World. Like the Inca in Peru, they said they were the children of teh Sun, they considered Him as their father; Persina was the female priest of the Moon, and the king, the priest of the Sun."

"Abrégé de l’Origine de tous les Cultes", Charles-François Dupuis, Ch. 2, Lebigre frères, 1836 [1]

By the way I find it interesting to note that before the christian era, you INDEED find the symbol of the Sun with the moon crescent on all the coins of Aksum

Zheim (talk) 18:25, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

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Ethiopia according to the ancient Greeks

I believe the following statement to be incorrect: “The ancient Greeks used the word (Αιθιοπία) to refer to the peoples living immediately to the south of ancient Egypt, specifically the area now known as Nubia.” According to my Greek mythology professor, Ethiopia was what the ancient Greeks called an area in or around Palestine. This is where Perseus went and rescued Andromeda from the sea monster that Poseidon sent out to eat her. Furthermore, the article on ancient/mythological Ethiopia states that Ethiopia was what the ancient Greeks called a Phoenician kingdom in Palestine.--Saintchang (talk) 18:05, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Saintchang, Aethiops in ancient greek means "burnt face", the name Ethjiopia can explicitely be found in ancient greek litterature refering to the legend of Phaëton in which they explained that the Ethiopians had dark skinned once the Sun passed so close to their country. Moreover you can find lots of greek texts which explicitely locate Ethiopia south of Egypt

http://bcs.fltr.ucl.ac.be/METAM/Met02/M02-001-271.html

In any case, Ethiopians were black people, ancient greek had lots of relations with them (the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea for instance said that Zoscales, king of Axum, read greek authors, and nowadays you can still find a stelae (Ezana Stone) where he thanks the greek gods like Ares). So let me telle you that this "professor" was just repeating one of this numerous racist theories that have grown in european world centuries latter (...once that have discovered something new : racism...). You can read Cheikh Anta Diop in "Nations nègres et culture" which deal with a lot of similar theories.

What's more Andromeda is the girl of an ethiopian king, and was ethiopian herself (so she was black too). Perseus is african himself, from Chemmis in Egypt (original greek text here : http://hodoi.fltr.ucl.ac.be/concordances/Herodote_HistoiresII/lecture/10.htm

In fact there are lots of members of greek mythology that were africans like Céphée, Cassiopée, Andromède, Delphos, and Memnon which was an ethiopian king. Some people like Eurybate are even described as dark-skinned with curly hair to cancel any doubts.

In fact at this time, Axum was described by Mani as one of the most important power in the world, like was Egypt, so greeks considered africans as other people and did not care about the colour of their skin.

edit: by the way, I have just read the poage about the "Phoenician kingdom in Palestine" theory, this is a complete nonsense (without sources and written by one person without modifications since) and lots of people have already denouced it -read the discussion page for instance-. If someone have some time to spare to correct this page...

Zheim (talk) 21:23, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

1930s/WW2 section

This section needs a serious revision, as at the moment it looks like pro-Ethiopian propaganda and is full of unverified inflammatory assertations. I certainly don't have the needed expertise, but I can say that the section on the Allied campaign into the AOI is certainly broadly incorrect, as it states that the Allied force was primarily Ethiopian civilians, when it was primarily British Empire forces. 210.49.34.193 (talk) 14:36, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I have added references, data, maps. I have erased anonymous onesided opinions with "propaganda and unverified inflammatory assertations". Hope it is better now the section.--DuilioM (talk) 04:38, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

This article needs work

The entire article reads like a Pro-Ethiopia, Pro-Christianity version of the history of Ethiopia, and has very few sources for its length. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.51.168.139 (talk) 09:01, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It also needs to be tidied up. The grammar is pretty bad... Bazza1971 (talk) 11:40, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Ancient History Sections Need to be Rewritten

For one, the references to Kush in the Bible are in fact to Nubia (modern-day Sudan) rather than Ethiopia. The use of "Ethiopia" in the King James Bible as a translation of Kush reflects the archaic usage of the term Ethiopia which also included Nubia (modern day Sudan); modern day Ethiopia was formerly known as Abyssinia. The "Ethiopian" pharaohs of the 8th-7th centuries BC were from Nubia, and have nothing to do with the country known today as Ethiopia. The article presents these pharaohs as if they came from modern-day Ethiopia, which they did not.

Two, the section on "Judaic" Ethiopia is completely unsourced and should be removed, or at least re-written as "Church Traditions." Aside from the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which tends to stress biblical connections, there is no evidence for a Judaic Ethiopia in the pre-Christian era (this doesn't mean there were no Jews there, it only means that the country as a whole was not Jewish). The section reads like a defensive speech by a proponent of these traditions against the more skeptical approach by non-Ethiopian historians. Any rewriting of this section needs to use peer-reviewed, reliable sources.--Rob117 (talk) 18:50, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

In response to your second point -- I won't argue about the need to re-write this article, but I haven't had the time to do it myself -- there is abundant information on the Judaic nature of Ethiopian Christianity: e.g. keeping Saturday as the Sabbath, dietary laws similar to Orthodox Jews, & the connection of the Ethiopian Royal line to Solomon via the Queen of Saba. If the earlier history of Ethiopia were better documented -- or at least, that of adjacent Arabia -- scholars might better understand the connection between Ethiopia & early Judaic culture. -- llywrch (talk) 00:09, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not denying the Judaizing tendencies of Ethiopian Christianity, I'm arguing against the idea that Judaism was the major religion of Ethiopia in pre-Christian times. As a student of the Ancient Near Eastern history I can tell you that if this were considered a fact or even a widely-held theory, it would receive much more publicity. The entire section of this article dealing with it is unsourced and at least one of the claims (that the Temple of Yeha is a copy of Jewish temples found in Israel and Egypt in the pre-Babylonian period) is demonstrably false. The temple of Yeha is of Sabaean style, not Judaic, and I believe the only Judaean temple that has actually been excavated is at Arad (although obviously there were others, such as at Jerusalem and Lachish). The Elephantine temple dates to the Persian period and I do not believe it has actually been excavated; we only know of it from the Elephantine Papyri. Babylonian rule in Judah begins in 604 BC, not 606 as the article claims. The thing about the Lake Tana altars needs a citation from a reliable source; the idea that we can tell from alleged blood residue whether or not the sacrifice "strongly adhered to Mosaic Law" sets off my bullshit detector pretty quickly. Add this to the fact that we know the names of several Aksumite deities (see page 102 here (as well as the fact that the Beta Israel, the actual Jews of Ethiopia, regard the origin story of the Kebra Negast as false), and the case for a Judaic Ethiopia in pre-Christian times is just not there.

The Judaizing tendencies of Ethiopian Christianity are not prima facie evidence of a Judaic heritage in Ethiopia. Judaizers were a well-known phenomenon among early Christians (although they were largely condemned by the Roman church fathers); the status of Ethiopia as a Christian center outside the Roman world would have freed it from the Roman condemnation of Judaizing practices, leaving Ethiopian Christianity free to develop in its own direction-- which seems to have been the case.--Rob117 (talk) 00:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, you may also want to check a recent comment at Talk:Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church#Similarities to Judaism (2 February 2010). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether User:Dougweller has been following this discussion, but I've left him a note about it on his talk page. Earlier today, Dougweller removed the section "Judaic Ethiopia" (i.e., the sub-section with which Rob117 has found issues) from this article, as an apparent copyvio from http://www.ethiopianhistory.com/Coming_of_Judaism. I'm not sure that's really the case, but ultimately the text in question was added without any sources, so Doug's edit should be a non-issue. For anyone interested in details, here's what I've found: According to the Internet Archive, no version of the "Coming of Judaism" web page is older than June 9, 2007 ([2]). Note that (most of) the text in the "Judaic Ethiopia" section was originally added to Wikipedia via a single edit on August 30, 2006 ([3]). Thus, the Wikipedia text precedes any (known) version on ethiopianhistory.com, so it is possible that the website is actually a mirror of Wikipedia. However, I notice that 31 minutes after the original Wikipedia edit, another editor had removed the word "paramythical" from the section (reason: "rm nonce word" [4]). Not only does "paramythical" still appear in the ethiopianhistory.com version, but further inspection reveals that the website maintains the verbatim text (including misspelling "Ark" as "Arc") from the original Wikipedia edit (while the Wikipedia text has since been updated). This suggests that it if the website is a Wikipedia mirror, it targeted this specific, original version. Based on this, I suspect the addition of this text to Wikipedia, and its subsequent publication on the external website, might have been part of the same effort (but ultimately, this is speculation on my part). In any case, even if the "Judaic Ethiopia" text is not a copyvio, it was added to Wikipedia without any sources (once again the website, reliable or not, did not yet exist), and as of today it still did not cite any sources (not even said website) and so in my opinion, Doug was in the right to remove it. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:49, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I should have checked the Internet archive, sorry. In any case, the "Jewish Pre-settlement Theory" seems to have been made up by someone, I looked for a source for it before deleting. If this is a significant concept, then it can be replaced with sources. Dougweller (talk) 14:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Having had a look at the section Gyrofrog references -- the contribution made on 30 August 2006 -- I would say that the first paragraph is for the most part a paraphrase of the standard truism about the Judaic substratum in the culture of Highland Ethiopia. (And one source for this would be Edward Ullendorff, Ethiopia and the Bible, pp. 15-30.) And as for Rob's objection that there is no theory concerning a large Jewish population in what is currently Ethiopia/Eritrea, there is a French scholar by the name of Pirenne who seriously argues that a group of Jewish refugees following the destruction of the First Temple settled in the area. (I don't have a better citation for this at the moment because I don't find her theory plausible & can't be bothered to find a better citation. But she has a doctorate & a academic title while I write articles for Wikipedia, so what do I know?) All of this being said, the rest of that section is unsourced original research which fails the smell test, which does need to be removed. With prejudice. -- llywrch (talk) 05:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Possible copyright problem

This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:27, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Pre-history

It looks like KKK scientists and Hollywood racists came together for racist rants. Racist white culture workers, i.e.Hollywood, referring to black Africa as Lucy "she", not-man-enough, not strong enough to prevent its enslavement and colinization are joined by equally racist scientists who gave the dehumanizing justification for mistreating, colonizing and enslaving "ape" Africa. Otherwise, in a non-racist science, this discovery would just have referred to a female australopicus. Such outrageous statements shouldn't have been brought here into wikipedia. I mean, unless the editor is a messenger of hate, you should have evaluated it as racist and cut to substance.

Dama — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.67.75.19 (talk) 20:22, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Pliny

I've deleted this: However, the Roman historian Pliny the Elder (79 CE) uses "Aethiopia" exclusively for Sub-Saharan Africa, expressly stating that the inhabitants of the Upper Nile from Elephantine as far as Meroe in his day were not from Aethiopia, but were Nubians. Pliny also described Adulis, in modern-day Eritrea, which port he said was the Ethiopians' principal trading town. I see this has been changed today, with 'Arab' replace by 'Nubians'.

Ok, here's the source [5] - can someone else determine what it really says? And we can't say Pliny uses anything exclusively without a reliable source. Dougweller (talk) 18:08, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Ethopia and the Bible

Both the old version and the new version lack independent sources and appear to be editors' interpretions, thus original research. This section needs reliable sources. Dougweller (talk) 18:10, 18 April 2012 (UTC)